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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 28, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
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I grew up in the Southern San Jouquin [sic] valley and that place was toxic as hell in the 80's. I can't imagine how bad it is there now...I worked in the fields during my high school summers and the chemicals were abundant in the air and much more in the soil. I got the hell outa there. I do what I can to support legitimate organic farming and for the most part, I leave the meat alone. As you know, our leadsership [sic] is bought and paid for so of course they are all for Monsanto and similar ilk.
I also grew up in the San Joaquin Valley, and paid for my first climbing gear by doing agricultural labor. I've also grown cherries commercially in conformance with EU protocols and been certified for export into the EU.
While many of us are happy to produce crops that are certified organic, or use IPM techniques, or anything else the market desires, we generally think the people paying extra for that are fools. The "known health benefits" are more religious belief than science, but the increased costs are incontrovertible.
To outrage you even more, I find the anti-gmo movement has all the morality of any other rich person's let-them-eat-cake crusade. With much of the world starving, and the ability to plant crops that would alleviate that hunger available, we will have much to answer for keeping these beneficial advances from those who would benefit from them.
John
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thirsty
climber
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May 28, 2013 - 03:26pm PT
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I find the overlapping GMO and fluoride topics confusing, but I appreciate the need to pay attention. I am not worried about GMO products damaging my immediate health as much as they have the unanalyzed potential to damage the environment and sustainable plant lines we depend on.
As to dentistry, it really is great to hear from someone in the field in a forum like this. The quality of the work and the dentist I end up with has varied dramatically.
A dental/climbing question for Dr. Tooth:
I have been rope-soloing for many years and now my incisors are worn down to the dentin from holding those ratty sandy ropes between my teeth so much while tying knots and pulling up slack (much more of this than when climbing with a partner). One dentist tried putting a layer of some sort of resin/glue on them – something he said was used to cement in the non-metal fillings. It all broke off. Are crowns up front there a good idea and what won’t break? Will I lose my teeth if I don’t deal with it? Also – any recommendations for a mouth guard I could actually use while climbing to protect my upper and lower teeth and that would allow me to hold the rope?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 28, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
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Go tell that to royalty/elite. They must all be "fools".
Yep. . . which is why this is a rich person's, let-them-eat-cake crusade.
Do you know, that at Monsanto headquarters, GMO food is not served in the cafeteria? Why is that?
No, I don't know that. What do they serve at the Monsanto headquarters cafeteria?
John
Edit: The alleged "ban" affects one Monsanto site in England, only. Monsanto headquarters is in St. Louis.
http://crisisboom.com/2011/08/22/gm-foods-not-served-in-monsanto-cafeteria/
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 28, 2013 - 04:48pm PT
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No pesticides find their way into farmworker's bloodstreams, no nitrogen runoff or growth hormones seeped into the watershed, no soils poisoned, no antibiotics squandered, no subsidy checks written.
You need to check "organic" regulations. Those crops need not be pesticide-free. I found that few city slickers know what constitutes "certified organic" for any given crop, so they assume the best. A farmer can use all sorts of nitrogen-rich additives, pesticides, etc., and still have the crop certified organic. It largely involves a question of the process that produces the additive, not its chemical composition.
I'm unaware of any subsidy effect on organic farming. A farmer can still be paid for "not growing cotton" regardless of whether the crop is or is not organic.
The biggest environmental issue here is the long-term effect of irrigating cropland. I personally worry about how little water we use for irrigation, because it does not leech accumulated salts from the soil. The effects of that will, in time, outlive any effect of modern application of agricultural chemicals, GMO's, or any other modern farming practice.
John
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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May 28, 2013 - 05:53pm PT
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but perceive it as a deeply flawed and greatly diminished criteria in large part to satisfy the desires of 'big organic' producers (i.e. large scale industrial organic food producer)
Agree, LG.
John
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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May 28, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
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TGT actually uses roundup on his home garden.
Don't worry, TGT, Monsansto said agent orange and DDT was safe also.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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May 28, 2013 - 08:51pm PT
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Oh jeez, Alex Jones and chemtrails. You are very gullible, Donald.
edit: I see Donald Perry has deleted all of his posts. Before and after this one.
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lostinshanghai
Social climber
someplace
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May 28, 2013 - 09:25pm PT
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Ethanol fuel is ethanol (ethyl alcohol), the same type of alcohol found in alcoholic beverages. It is most often used as a motor fuel, mainly as a biofuel additive for gasoline.
Bioethanol is a form of renewable energy that can be produced from agricultural feedstocks. It can be made from very common crops such as sugar cane, potato, manioc and corn. There has been considerable debate about how useful bioethanol will be in replacing gasoline. Concerns about its production and use relate to increased food prices due to the large amount of arable land required for crops, as well as the energy and pollution balance of the whole cycle of ethanol production, especially from corn.
It is most often used as a motor fuel, mainly as a biofuel additive for gasoline.
So Monsanto has been in the picture especially with potato, soybeans and corn seeds with rice forecast to be on the market in 2014 or 2015:
So corn syrup, Fritos, Corn chips, corn cereals, potato chips and it will never end. The next time you are drinking a beer which some chips is almost eating and drinking Agent Orange well a little but sure goes a long ways.
So eat well and be happy: God bless Unamerica and the profiteers.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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May 28, 2013 - 10:12pm PT
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but does Monsanto own the seeds used by the organic farmers as well?
I used to farm organic food. Tomatoes, corn, melons, ginseng, carrots. Almost 700 acres in BC.
What I'm finding now is that unless we buy seeds from the smaller boutique seed companies, the resulting seeds the regular seeds grow are sterile. So now our family has been collecting strains of plants that produce viable seeds. I hope people realize this with their own grown food before it is too late. All Monsanto would need to do one year is sell packets full of dead seeds and people who thought they were growing their own, non-GMO food would be purchasing their food from store shelves again.
have been rope-soloing for many years and now my incisors are worn down to the dentin from holding those ratty sandy ropes between my teeth so much while tying knots and pulling up slack (much more of this than when climbing with a partner). One dentist tried putting a layer of some sort of resin/glue on them – something he said was used to cement in the non-metal fillings. It all broke off. Are crowns up front there a good idea and what won’t break? Will I lose my teeth if I don’t deal with it? Also – any recommendations for a mouth guard I could actually use while climbing to protect my upper and lower teeth and that would allow me to hold the rope?
I just spent 10 days at Red Rocks and tried my best to not put the rope in my teeth. Just isn't going to happen.. so..... use a clean rope? Keep it off the ground, no single-pitch climbing!
Post a picture of your teeth.
Without it I can only describe what I see happen to other people. Teeth wear through the enamel to dentin which is 7x softer. It wears faster, cups out. If you are doing this just from a rope, I'll be surprised, your teeth must fit together different as well, and probably use your teeth for other things that they weren't designed for as well. Knowing those two extra things can help in decisions for restorations.
Crowns are put on like beanies over the tooth, once you shave it down like a pencil sharpner does. You essentially remove all the enamel. Gluing to dentin only isn't very strong. It becomes easier to break off what is left of the tooth on the inside of the crown as well. Especially if you are pulling on it with a rope. So let any dentist know exactly how you are abusing your teeth, even bring a bight of rope to show him if he doesn't climb.
Veneers on the other hand, need only some of the front of the tooth removed, not even through all the enamel. Gluing to enamel is strong. You have to shorten the tooth by 2mm or so, but it sounds like you have done that already. Veneers can strengthen some teeth, you are essentially adding to the tooth. Zirconia, lithium disilicate, or porcelain. The first one is super strong. You wouldn't wear it out with a rope. You can hardly cut it with diamond burrs. Sparks fly! And they are making it look better and better so with the right lab you might find a dentist who would try to use it on your front teeth.
Using the other materials will look proper, but not be as strong. They will tell you not to abuse your teeth by putting ropes in your mouth, and give you an appliance to wear at night to protect the veneers/crowns from nighttime bruxing. (everyone does it, it's alright) Wear it if you want them to last.
As far as appliances go to wear when climbing.... have you ever seen Invisalign? I would start by making you a set of clear thin plastic trays to wear over all your teeth top and bottom. less than .6mm thick. If you wear it out, a second set can be made from your original models. Simple and you would hardly notice wearing them. Like bleaching trays but made with hard thin smooth material, Essix retainer material.
If you don't do something about your teeth the dentin on the inside will continue to wear away, the enamel around the outside will continue to chip off in chunks, and your bite will probably change accommodating the wear which makes it harder for us to restore the teeth the longer you wait. I have a patient right now who is doing this by drinking a gallon of grapefruit juice a day. So now I have to crown every single tooth in his mouth. He is 30.
And only donald really needs to read this......
You’re so far behind its pathetic. Go back to school
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ylnQ-T7oiA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eouwfuTGHs
VS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iMFhjPSS9I[/quote]
So in my grandpa's day they used rubber dams. Nobody nowdays that is on top of their game uses those, too much leakage, spillage, poor air isolation, vaporization from the drill, etc. etc. Notice how they didn't actually show them using it in the video. They showed it on a model of teeth so donald in all his wisdom could be fooled. What I use is generations ahead of grandpa's technology there. Sorry to disappoint you.
your third/vs. video shows a typical plaque-covered tooth that looks bad underneath because of the calcium hydroxide base the dentist placed because of the deep filling that was close to the pulp. It doesn't show anything special about Ag. It looks sensational if that is the first filling you have ever seen removed. I should have recorded my work today and really grossed you out. We see that gunk all the time under fillings, now we use it in a camphorquinine base that light cures and hardens and looks better when the filling is removed. Still use pins like in the video. Nothing in that video is any different than what you would see if you removed a white resin filling in the same location treated with plaque for the same amount of time. It would look and last better with a white glass ionomer restoration over it, but that is only because GI fillings absorb Fl from topical applications and then release it slowly over time allowing the remaining tooth structure to stay healthy and resist the assaults from all that plaque that was pasted over the tooth. Your link to Holistic dentists there had dentist who were using GI. They won't tell you that this is how it works, they just say that there isn't mercury in it when they place it and that it works better. Which is true. They just don't say why. Don't be so easily fooled donald!
I'm interested in explaining this simple stuff to people so that they can understand their own bodies better and make better choices - but I'm not going to endlessly reply to some lazy guy who can't think for himself and continuously posts up mindless youtube videos that he doesn't understand and are a joke, really. If I told you, donald, that you aren't free climbing if you are using a rope through youtube videos repeatedly, wouldn't you wonder if I really knew anything about climbing?
Just one last quote to immortalize your cocky wisdom...
If you brush your teeth with coconut oil it will kill all that bacteria in your mouth and allow your teeth to rematerialize and your gums to stop receding so your teeth fall out.
.... rematerialize so your teeth fall out. That's just the advice SuperTopo needs donald!
(remineralize.... DON"T fall out!)
So next time you go to the dentist just be glad we are a group of people who treat you in the chair with decency and respect regardless of what names you call us.
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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May 29, 2013 - 09:24am PT
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Explain any part of that link you put up for me. For example, I have seen three people die from decayed teeth - they abscessed and started bacteriemia (like this article talks about) which gave them heart attacks. No dental work done - but their lives could have been saved by doing root canals before the infection got out of control.
In your article it correctly says that there is bacteria in root canals. The reasons for root canals are really symptoms.
Q 1: what are they symptoms of? What is the name of the diagnosis?
Q 2: What are the top three most common types of bacteria found in canals and are they aerobic or anerobic?
Q3: Where does the bacteria found in the canals that this article is talking about come from?
Q4: The article says front teeth have one common canal but up to 75 canals that people don't talk about. What are these extra canals called, where are they found, and what are the two methods of obturating canals called, your grandpa's method (which is alluded to in this article) and today's method? Explain why they are different and why today's methods do clean out the '75' canals.
Q5: Finally, the article is called, "How Root canals Cause Cancer" was that explained? Or do you wonder how bacteria causes cancer now?
Q6: What are the tx options this author gives for 1. root canals 2. sympomatic wisdom teeth The website is called end all disease. Surely they will tell you how!
Some more questions I have are why there isn't a difference quoted in success rates between endodontists and general dentists, or between the two methods of obturation, and between teeth that have been properly restored and sealed and those patients who only wanted the root canal filling done and no definitive restoration on top. (more than half, and those always fail because saliva re-infects the tooth)
I tell my patients this, so his cocky sentence about telling your dentist this and watch him run and hide is really just BS to get you to believe this article. Did you fall for it?
The guy loves to quote stuff from 1925. Endodontists now use microscopes, well, every part of the procedure has changed. Much like telephones or TV's have changed since then. Did you catch that? Do you think that possibly the author is trying to make things sound more 'stone age' than they really are?
Another question that if you don't know the answer to this article will fool you.... what is the distance of the lingual foramen from the notch of the ramus of the mandible? Kids or adults it doesn't change, where does the growth happen, what is the max dimension through the ramus at this point?
So teach me these three basic questions to start with so we know you aren't just posting stuff you don't understand. You shouldn't have to look any of this up, if you don't know it, it would be truly hard to understand what that article is saying because they try to prey on your lack of knowledge to lead you to a certain conclusion. But you should at least know these basic foundational ideas. I don't want to see more garbage links that prey on your ignorance. I want to see, in point form, correct answers, just like I have respectfully replied to your nonsense link.
77 posts on SuperTopo and all you have been able to convince people of is that your personality loves to attack straw men.
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McCfly
climber
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May 29, 2013 - 10:15am PT
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In all fairness most PEOPLE can only do what they have bee taught. The conundrum with Dr's just makes it more obvious as we really really need them when we need them.
Yes Dr's should have some capacity to think outside the box. In all reality i believe many could and it just comes down to desire to do so. Most people like the idea of helping people but when push comes to shove i need to get in 10 apt. today if i am gonna feed my family afford the vacation home and drive the fancy car that makes me think i have a better life than i do.
Fluoride and Mercury suck!
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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May 29, 2013 - 11:18am PT
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I'm saying the plants grow just fine but when I take the seeds from them to use next year they won't grow.
I'll answer more when I have time. Have a root canal to do right now..
As far as dental materials, everything has a place. When I evaluate what works, I'm going to balance outcomes and how it effects your life after it is implemented and give my patients all the options and the resulting effects and let them choose which they balance with the tesulting effects of not having the $$ it costs for the rx as well.
If you have more than 5 areas of decay ill most likely use GI in the bottom of boxes with resin on the occluding surfaces. Nanohybrid resins everywhere except micro hybrids on the front of the front teeth. It stays polished and gets even more shiney over time. I use sixth generation self etching bond since it has never failed my patients, less dental visits.
Every dental treatment fails at some point, it is abused in a wet pitri dish with more bacteria than a dogs mouth all day. If you ever did a 'study' and found a virgin tooth without bacteria in the dentin tubules you would be laughed out of town. For a web link to say that root canals or implants are bad because they have bacteria around them really has no grasp on reality.
If people choose a large silver filling as a cheaper option to a crown, they can have it. Just haven't had one person choose that in 3 years. For smaller fillings resins are better because we have the ability to cut out the affected dentin and enamel only whereas silver fillings need a certain shape filling cut regardless of where the decay ends. Which means that comps are more conservative. I can also seal the edges of the fillings to the enamel using sandblasting before so that bacteria has a harder time getting back between the tooth ad the filling. This doesn't happen with silver fillings. It wouldn't matter if you kept your mouth open to dry in the sun all day, but it does happen once you close your mouth.
My goal is to treat my patients existing decay. Once. Then help them understand what they can do to keep it that way. It is then their choice.
I have seen too many people die from transient bacterial endocarditis. Your options to avoid this are not get cavities, or treat them soon. None of the treatment options are perfect, but none have done to a patient what the disease we are treating does. If it is mercury we are worried about, look at dentists to see what blood levels 1000x that of a person with 20 ah fillings looks like after a lifetime of exposure. If you are worried about FL, tell me what concentration spots present themselves at, then fluorosis, then whatever other signs and symptoms we are concerned about. I have just drilled wells in Haiti for orphans and we can study the effects of 3.4 ppm of naturally-occurring fl has on the growth and development of children we are taking care of and compare it to other villages there with varying levels and a population that doesn't move around, but bottled water or any of the ther hundreds of variables that are much more easily introduced in our communities. Everyone ther is in the same economic strata. Dirt poor. Makes studying easy.
edit: Just so that I don't bump this thread, I'm replying to perry's questions below here.
Perry. I wish you would answer my questions, but since you are asking more...
How do you remove the PDL over the IAN? IT is at the apex, shouldn't it be the most important to remove from there? What is the concentration of bacteria in a root canal vs. in your mouth, in an abscess, in a vital nerve, in a non-vital nerve, in an obturated canal, in a canal with MTA or CaOH in it, in a canal prepared with hand files, in one prepared with Q-mix and other irrigation? In one prepared with laser? How were your root canals sealed? Composite resin in a fractured natural crown? Onlay, inlay, crown? How were the margins? Was there recurrent decay? Was there perio involvement? Was there root fractures? Were there accessory canals?
Just a few of the questions I ask myself when I evaluate a tooth in pain that had a root canal done in Mexico, etc. I can get into it deeper, but I think you get the point that simple minds simplify things to a point where it is a joke. To bag everything together and say it is the worst thing for your body to have a root canal isn't logically thinking about anything realistic. How can 1 lonely bacteria be worse than a few hundred million? How do you even know which species it is? You are swallowing these goofy ideas much too easily without giving it a second thought. If you would like to see some 3D scans of jaws that I have taken teeth out of and show me where the teeth were, where the cavitations are, I'd be interested. 3D. If there is a cavitation there, you'll see it. I think where you are confused on this one is that you are underestimating the wisdom of your body and it's ability to heal itself and the difference between healthy teeth/pdl and granulation tissue. You can get a persistant cavitation in your arm if you fall and grind gravel into it, never take all the gravel out, and a scar with proud tissue forms. Same thing in your mouth. Granulation tissue will form in the gingiva and slow the bone remodelling. Do you know how often this happens in real life? Do you know how often it happens when you leave a 4-walled defect or socket? 3-walled? 2 or 1-walled? Do you know how those remodel and heal? Can you predict what each one will look like in 6months to a year from now? That is more of a determining factor than removing all the granulation tissue. In the last 3000 extractions I've done, smokers get dry socket a dozen times. 1 guy had slow healing that took a month. He also had health issues that he didn't tell me about. So tell me, which of those support your theory? All the ridges now either have implants in them or are remodeled to a smooth, round ridge. How would removing the PDL in each and every one affect the bone grafting we do? Maybe I'll use a #8 round burr on the right side of every patient this next year, and all left side exo's I'll leave the pdl (not the granulation tissue on PA lesions). Then I can compare healing times and radiographic densities a year later. Because they certainly do not stay cavitiated for more than 3-6 months which is THE bone healing time depending on which type of bone it is, 1, 2,3, etc.
This is the real world. This is what I will do today with patients who are in pain, have infections that their bodies cannot resolve without surgery, and they will heal within a short period of time in a predictable way. If any of it happened the way your youtube videos described, I would think you were on to something. But it doesn't,and you aren't.
when someone you have respected for years repeats what I already said.
See, that still wouldn't change the fact that you or this person are claiming things that just aren't true, just not congruent with what i see thousands of times a year. If there were one instance of cavitation after an extraction, people getting cancer from root canals or dumb from mercury or there truly was a difference in healing between wisdom teeth and others, susre, you would have point. But there isn't and you don't. In the world of science when you make a claim it has to be repeatable in more than just your mind, or more than just replaying the youtube video to be credible.
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dirtbag
climber
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May 30, 2013 - 07:13am PT
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Wow...
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tooth
Trad climber
B.C.
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May 30, 2013 - 08:38am PT
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The monty hall method is applicable to people who think a certain way, then are shown youtube videos and may or may not change their mind on a subject.
The scientific method is for people who are doing things, evaluating the results, tweaking their actions, doing it again, getting better results, trying something new, getting a worse result, discovering why, doing something else new, measuring the result, etc. What you believe about how something works is continually changing based on real-world results and more importantly what you do and how you do it changes.
You need the scientific method to provide others with the best healthcare possible.
You need the monty hall method to sit on your computer and watch Alex Jones.
Edit: just did an audit of my patients today. Of all the patients with cancer, some DID have root canals. 1800 patients. 453 with root canals. 14 with cancer. 3 of those with root canals. All root canals done after their parotid shut down during cancer treatment which they beat and are now still alive. The resulting xerostomia caused decay which caused the pulpal necrosis.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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May 30, 2013 - 12:51pm PT
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Heard on the radio this AM that a farmer in Oregon has discovered that the GMO wheat which had been experimented with elsewhere, and which was banned from production and sale by the FDA 6 years back, is all over his field. He discovered it when he sprayed Roundup to kill the weeds and the GMO Wheat ignored it.
This has the ability to spread and eventually ruin the entire US export market for Wheat, which is huge, huge dollars.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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May 30, 2013 - 08:07pm PT
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You think everything is cool in Dr. land, and AIDS is a fact?
AIDS is not a fact? What did all those people die of?
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