prozac for teenagers-climbing related

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kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 5, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
this threads depressing
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 5, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
this threads depressing


You wouldn't last at my job.

I actually like depressed people over some of the psychological alternatives ;).
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 5, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
depressed people probably tend to be a little more low key
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 5, 2013 - 04:12pm PT
depressed people probably tend to be a little more low key

You got it! Many are pretty intelligent, you can have a decent conversation. They don't want to cause any fuss.... Yeah, from the medical side, they're good peeps.
joy bar

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2013 - 08:53pm PT
Depression is fully a climbing related topic.

Which if the reference to "Death Grip" doesn't convince you, just think of
all the folks who are vertical legends that have killed themselves.

One might argue that the let down after each major climb leads to a cycles of ups and downs (both physically and mentally) which over the long term leads many climbers into a depressive state between climbs and when they retire or cull back the risks they take.
--
Sort of some strange attacks here on a parent who is both concerned and frighten about their kid's well being.

As they used to say in my day, take a chill pill.

that aside, The back and forth has been great,

thanks
LilaBiene

Trad climber
May 5, 2013 - 10:06pm PT
Just a few thoughts and suggestions, based primarily on my own experiences...

Have blood work done to make sure it's not a simple nutrient imbalance.

It's well worth having the docs test for celiac disease, including the genetic testing. I spent 41 years of my life hiding my feelings of depression, in large part because my family told me I had nothing to be depressed about and was, in essence, being SELFISH. I figured out that life-long severe anxiety and depression in my case was caused by the gluten in most grains. My life would have been entirely different, had this been discovered early -- instead of expending most of my energy on a day-to-day basis struggling to do things most people consider normal, but to me were herculean tasks (e.g., getting out of bed, dressed and actually going outside), this energy could have been utilized in a million different positive, life-enhancing ways.

When you are suffering from depression and anxiety, learning to cope with the ups and downs of life isn't even on the radar -- day to day, moment to moment survival is. If there's one thing that still raises my hackles (hence my response to this post well past my self-imposed sleep curfew), it's the idea that somehow, the depressed person has brought this upon herself, whether it be lack of coping skills, character flaws (read: unable to cope like everyone else), unwillingness to see all the good things she has in her life, etc. These ideas about depression are IGNORANT and DANGEROUS, and actually make the depressed person feel even worse.

Talking about a depressed child as if she is "the one with the problem" is similarly injurious. Frequently, the most sensitive child in a family will reflect what is going on inside of the family. Asserting that parents, siblings, etc. contribute in no way to a child's situation is frankly disturbing -- it essentially means that the child is an island and has been walled off by the family and isolated for...what? Being human?

If anorexia is present, first check to make sure she does NOT have celiac disease. I suffered with an eating disorder for 5 years in my teens -- or at least that was what I was told I was suffering from. In reality, I had already found what to eat to feel good, but my limited diet (largely vegetable based) was unacceptable to my parents and I was essentially force-fed food that made me sick (i.e., severely anxious and depressed).

If I am exposed to gluten now, I can chart roughly what I will be feeling when as it works its way through my system. Anywhere from 3-5 weeks after being exposed, I start suffering from severe, debilitating anxiety attacks and howling depression. Consciously, I know this will happen, but it doesn't make the physical manifestation of the feelings any less real.

A couple of resources to consider in conjunction with therapy (vetted and used multiple times throughout my life):

Book: Feeling Good (and the Feeling Good workbook) - can't remember author off-hand

CD/DVD series (infomercial) called "Attacking Anxiety and Depression" by Lucinda Basset (This really does work. Can not recommend it highly enough.)

Final thoughts:
Bootstrapping doesn't work. Period.

DMT started an interesting discussion on "Anxiety" a little while back -- there may be some helpful information for you there, too.

My birth dad committed suicide in his late 30s -- there isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about this...but then, I never had the chance to meet him and only accidentally discovered that I have celiac disease (which he very likely also suffered from) some 40 years after his death. What I would give to be able to travel back in time and tell hime of my discovery...but it's too late. (I wrote more about this in a TR called something like "Brandon's post on fear".)

I'm curious -- how does your daughter feel about being prescribed an anti-depressant? Have the doctors suggested a medication that works particularly well in anxious patients? Klonopin works particularly well for panic attacks.

Best of luck to you and your family, really.
A
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 6, 2013 - 08:13am PT
If there's one thing that still raises my hackles (hence my response to this post well past my self-imposed sleep curfew), it's the idea that somehow, the depressed person has brought this upon herself, whether it be lack of coping skills, character flaws (read: unable to cope like everyone else), unwillingness to see all the good things she has in her life, etc. These ideas about depression are IGNORANT and DANGEROUS, and actually make the depressed person feel even worse.

When I mention coping skills, I essentially mean talk therapy. My position is that therapists and other well trained mental health specialists (NOT MDs) should be the ones guiding the course of treatment. Therapy is very effective for treating depression even without med use. Here's an excerpt from an article comparing drugs with therapy:

http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20040907/drug-vs-talk-therapy-for-depression?page=2

A combination of talk therapy and drugs worked best for treatment of depression and anxiety. But those whose treatment consisted of mostly talk therapy did almost as well if they had 13 or more visits with the therapist.
Treatment consisting of mostly drug treatment was also effective for many people. Drugs had a quicker impact on symptoms than talk therapy, but it often took trial and error to find a drug that worked without undesirable side effects.
More than 50% of survey respondents who took antidepressants tried two or more drugs; 10% tried five or more. "It really does have to be a process of trial and error... because there's no predicting people's response to [antidepressants]," says Nancy Metcalf, a Consumer Reports senior editor and author of the survey.
Side effects were much more common than noted on the medications' package information: 40% said they experienced a loss of sexual interest or performance, and almost 20% said they gained weight. Why the discrepancy? In clinical trials, people are not asked specifically about certain side effects, Metcalf tells WebMD. "They were expected to volunteer the information, and they may not be as willing to do that."
Treatment from primary care doctors was effective for people with mild problems, but less so for people with more severe ones. Treatment by mental health specialists yielded significantly better results for people who started out in poor shape.
Health insurance plan limits on therapy visits and costs kept some people from getting the best treatment.
Consumers who did their own research and monitored their own care reported better results.
More than 80% of survey respondents said they found treatment that helped.

And for those wanting to prescribe first and ask questions later for the teenage daughter, another quote from the same article:

The link between antidepressants and suicide rates among children and adolescents is "a very serious issue" that both Congress and the FDA are investigating in hearings, he noted. An FDA panel is meeting next week to determine if there is an increase in suicide and suicidal thoughts among kids taking antidepressants. The agency sent out a warning to doctors last year to be on the lookout for worsening depression or suicidal thoughts in these kids.

Yes, let's prescribe meds first! Roll the dice with young brains, sounds like a great deal.

If anorexia is present, first check to make sure she does NOT have celiac disease.


I'd venture to say the vast majority of anorexia cases are NOT celiac disease, but it is a serious disease. If you want to know the proper course of treatment for anorexia, I could get you the actual information since that's what my wife does for a living. Anorexia is usually not a quick fix situation in the least.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 6, 2013 - 09:26am PT
Don't do it. The docs put me on prozac when I was 13. It made me all f*cked up. Really, don't do it.


What does she enjoy?
LilaBiene

Trad climber
May 6, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
Hey, JHB, I wasn't aiming my comments at what you posted and am sorry if it appeared that way. My comments were in response to the OP.

But your point is well taken -- I am not a therapist nor a doctor -- I can only speak to my own experiences.

After some self-reflection after reading your post above, I think I reacted strongly to the OP for a number of reasons, but mainly because I learned about a year ago that my birth dad committed suicide and I still feel sadness about this -- a successful suicide is forever -- no second chances. I DON'T believe that prescription drugs should be a first choice, and I believe that they are tremendously over-prescribed. Having observed first-hand a very young relative that was put on ADHD and sleep meds before the age of 8 years old, and who is now in college, still unable to function without both (and now on seriously strong sleep meds), it is still inconceivable to me that the parents never bothered to try adjusting diet and exercise because it took too much effort. Also, I spent 40+ years of my life ashamed of feeling depressed, with parents that towed the line of "just get it together -- you're just not trying hard enough" -- and I believed it..

The medical impacts of celiac disease and anorexia are in may ways very similar -- they both create serious imbalances in nutrition, which in turn create drastic changes in the levels of neurotransmitters in the brain. I lived in shame of my eating disorder my entire life. It wasn't until about a year and a half ago, after getting "glutened" for the first time after having eliminated grains from my diet completely, that I put celiac disease and eating disorders together. The rebound effect after getting exposed to gluten creates a massive nutritional deficit -- my body was so desperate for food that I barely felt able to control my urges to eat gluten-containing foods. This wild, out-of-control feeling toward food is the basis for various eating disorders, but I never made the connection until I had been glutened and had to fight the very primal urges to consume foods that would wreak even greater havoc on my system if I gave in.

Perhaps my empathy for the plight the OP's daughter is overly strong -- but I remember that period of my life in painful detail, and wanted to simply offer what I have to give. My God, I hope she's doing alright.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
May 6, 2013 - 07:00pm PT
The world is in a strange place today.

Instead of struggling to survive against dangers of life, the current generations seeks a better form of entertainment and social acceptance. Thus it is no wonder that humans are having so many troubles.

"Chemical Imbalance" is a big pharma marketing line. The reality is that there is not scientific study to support this. It seems sensible because if you pour alcohol, a chemical, in you body, it seems to make a big affect on the mind in many ways.

We are in an age of "blood letting" and "leeches" to cure problems of the mind. At last, the mainstream is waking up to this:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2013/05/04/psychiatry-in-crisis-mental-health-director-rejects-psychiatric-bible-and-replaces-with-nothing/

A drug with a side-affect of suicide sounds like a very poor cure for suicidal thoughts.

I certainly hope you can find a solution as a result of honest communication.

I've got a bag full of solutions here but it's a complicated problem that requires much more than an internet forum discussion. There are no "instant" buttons or easy fixes, usually.

Here is one easy one: Vitamin B1 is a stress fixer. (Thamin) I like the TwinLab brand in a powder in gel caps. If she's feeling stressed giver her 500 MG and in about half an hour she'll enjoy about 2 hours of normal.

I used to give 100 mg cap to my kids when they woke up with nightmares or just got scared at night. Works like charm.

Now that is the quick fix. If you find it works you'll need to have her get a whole regimen of vitamins because they need to be balanced. A calcium supplement is needed to go with it if you are going to use it on a regular basis.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 6, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
Hey, JHB, I wasn't aiming my comments at what you posted and am sorry if it appeared that way. My comments were in response to the OP.

Oh, didn't get that. Thanks for clearing that up, and for sharing your experiences.
verticalbound

Trad climber
Anchorage
May 6, 2013 - 07:27pm PT
lexapro is a good one. I didnt read very much of any of the posts but from a personal stand point any predisposition you have towards an opinion of something like depression or any of the severely misdiagnosed and complicated personality disorders out there is probably wrong and severely ignorant, you need to talk to your daughter, and get her to do her own research, she needs to figure out what is is she has wrong with herself, self understanding is a big deal, I have severe depression & anxiety issues as well as having borderline personailty disorder and have almost never taken medication(except for anxiety) coping is hard, and even harder if you feel like everyone has already made judgement of your issues without ever walking a mile in your shoes, people comment on those that have killed themselves while on prozac or other medicines... medicine for personality disorders doesnt solve sh#t like an antibiotic for an infection just cause you take it does not mean the symptoms disappear they might help but you still suffer. The strongest point to be made is its a chemical thing, when your brain refuses to work right even when you know its wrong, even when you can acknowledge that the way you feel is rediculous and doesnt make sense youre still a victim to your own disfunction and still viably in danger of hurting yourself in spite of what you want.
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