prozac for teenagers-climbing related

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joy bar

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - May 3, 2013 - 05:11pm PT
Soooo

A group of docs want to put my kid on prozac because
she has suicidal thoughts.

My take is my kid needs to learn how to cope with the ups and downs of life without meds.

If she fails at that (and fails at trying to kill herself) then and only then does meds. make sense to me. Plus prozac increases thoughts of suicide in kids, so seems like a strange "cure."

Reading these here forum posts, seems lots of climbers deal with depression.
And lots of the posts are depressing.

so any advice welcome,

cha joy

Robb

Social climber
It's Ault or Nunn south of Shy Annie
May 3, 2013 - 05:15pm PT
My advice,

DO NOT DO IT!!!!!!!

My best friend and paramedic partner offed himself on Prozac!

SRI's and SSRI's are bad news......
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
May 3, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
I wouldn't dismiss the suggestion, but I would be wary. I have been on Effexor, a SSRI, since 2005, and it worked wonders for me. I told my full story in a different thread, if you're interested:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1133733&msg=1134943#msg1134943

My depression was entirely endogenous, though. There was no external reason for depression. I have had no real depressive episodes since I started medication, but I started when I was first diagnosed at age 54.

I know too many stories of adverse results from teenagers relying on medication for control of depression, including suicidal ideation, that was situational rather than medical. Without knowing why your particular group recommends Prozac, I can't offer any more specific advice, except to say that often the only thing keeping a depressed person from committing suicide is that their depression is so severe, they are unable to undertake any action. Once the antidepressant kicks in, the first -- and, sadly, last -- thing they do is kill themselves.

I would at least seek a second medical opinion before sending meds a teenager's way. There may be a very good medical reason for the recommendation, but the warnings about antidepressants, particularly with younger patients, represent sad experience, so be careful.

John
Tami

Social climber
Canada
May 3, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
I wouldn't be too quick to either embrace or reject medication for a teen.

( I work with teens & have 2 kids in their twenties now )

I am familiar with situations where there has been over-medicating as well as under-medicating. Sometimes telling a kid to bootstrap it doesn't work. Rejecting medications because a person "should live with ups and downs" sometimes isn't an option.

You need to research what the needs of your individual teen are.
Reeotch

Trad climber
4 Corners Area
May 3, 2013 - 06:00pm PT
I concur with the above posts.

Too many doctors are just drug pushers these days.

What kind of doctor was it? And, did they even mention any form of counseling. I'd look for a good therapist first before going straight to the drugs.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
May 3, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
I agree with Tami.

Getch

Mountain climber
Flagstaff, AZ
May 3, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
How frequent and what intensity are her thoughts? Sometimes depression is caused by an event or situation sometimes it is endogenous, most of the time it is both. Therapy an option? Lots of different types of therapists out there. SSRI's are a very safe medication overall, although they don't know the specific mechanism of action. Is the doc a psych? GP?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
May 3, 2013 - 06:15pm PT
fairly incomplete info.. What Music does she listen to? What TV or movies? Video games? Introvert? Spoiled/bored?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
May 3, 2013 - 06:27pm PT
This is a tough one.

My partner Jennie takes 10mg Citalopram every morning for depression.

It works, I think, I hope. She is 62 and suffered child abuse (EDIT, by her father).

I do not know much about Prozac. (EDIT even though I am a medical journalist).

But for a teen-ager. I just do not know. The only advice I can offer, for what it is worth, is get a couple of more medical opinions.

I wish you the best.

Cheers

Patrick


EDIT

SRI's and SSRI's are bad news......

Robb, yes and no. Not to be ambiguous, but it really does come down to a good medical person and the individual involved. Of course, we would like to lessen the dependence on drugs, but let's be realistic, yoga is not going to help my partner's condition. I have no answers.
joy bar

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2013 - 06:56pm PT
thanks for the great info so far.

cha joy
hossjulia

climber
May 3, 2013 - 07:01pm PT
Prozac is about the strongest one out there, what about something A LOT milder?

My son, and a friend killed themselves on Prozac. He was 23, she was brain injured and mid 30's.

I personally think of it (prozac) as a last resort after other anti-depressants have failed..

Get a second opinion and/or ask for something milder.
John M

climber
May 3, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
If she fails at that (and fails at trying to kill herself)

First question..

What if she succeeds at trying kill herself?

Second question..

What kind of group of doctors? Is there a Psychiatrist in the group? Has she seen a Psychologist?

In my experience, most Psychiatrist and many family doctors lean towards treating with meds. The Psychiatrists are experts in the meds and if you need one, then you need one. But first I would have her see a good Psychologist. Most aren't MDs and so can't perscribe meds, but a good one will know when a person needs more help then they can give.

Suicidal ideation is not a joke. And its not something that most people can just pull themselves up by their bootstraps. 30,000 people kill themselves every year in America. It is the third leading cause of death among adolescents.

The thing is that there are just so many variables. It requires good help and interested parents to figure it out. As JohnE stated, their is depression that has a medical cause and often responds to medication, and then there is situational depression that often responds well to counseling, exercise, and proper diet. And then there are combinations. Either way.. this isn't something to take lightly. With the proper help, many people overcome these types of problems. So there is hope.

If you do take her to see a Psychologist or Psychiatrist, please try to discern whether she likes the doctor or not. Having a good rapport with your doctor is very important. The problem is in knowing when your child is just being a pain, and when the doctor is the problem.

I hope things work out for her and for you.

Edit: I lean towards not treating with meds. But if you need them, then you need them and they do help some people. They also have all kinds of side effects. Which can even be dangerous. So I wouldn't do them lightly. But I also wouldn't deal with this lightly.
joy bar

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2013 - 07:14pm PT
Milder anti-depressant?

Any suggestions?
hossjulia

climber
May 3, 2013 - 07:33pm PT
ask your Dr. and do some research, a quick search will revel that Prozac is not recommended for adolescents.

I would be VERY leery of a Dr. who just threw that out there.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
May 3, 2013 - 07:44pm PT

I don't agree with Robb

ssri's have done wonders for many people. I would be cautious with
a teen though, as some ssri's have caused teens problems.
Juan Maderita

Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
May 3, 2013 - 07:47pm PT
Here's my take, speaking from 35+ years of continuous full-time work treating adolescents and families.

If she is having serious thoughts of suicide (see risk notes below), treatment with an antidepressant medication is part of a good plan. She should also receive weekly psychotherapy. Medication alone might relieve depressive symptoms, but doesn't resolve any underlying problems. Studies show that better resuts are achieved with meds and therapy combined.

prozac increases thoughts of suicide in kids
Typical faulty logic. The key word you left out is "may." Prozac has been known to increase suicidal thoughts in a small percentage of cases.
My observation is that it is more common with an "agitated" depression. Prozac has an activating effect, so someone with depression and anxiety may become more anxious and agitated.

Remember that antidepressants are being prescribed to a depressed and potentially suicidal population. Sure there will be suicides while on meds. Without treatment by medication, many more would suicide.

If there is any family history of Bipolar Disorder (aka: manic depressive illness), be sure to inform the doctors. SSRI's have been known to trigger mania in bipolar patients.

My take is my kid needs to learn how to cope with the ups and downs of life without meds.
If she fails at that (and fails at trying to kill herself) then and only then does meds. make sense to me.
Joy Bar, please re-read your own words. So, you would skip the meds and let her sink-or-swim? And let her attempt suicide just how many times before resorting to meds?
If your choice of wording is intentional, then it appears that you lack empathy and compassion for your daughter (in addition to common sense). I'm guessing that the low empathy is multi-generational. Was your mother warm and nurturing, or was she tough and unsupportive? Many parents who don't get emotional support as children are in denial of their childhood pain. They go through life pretending that they didn't need it. Consequently, they are unable or unwilling to provide it to their own children. Your daughter is hurting due, in part, to your lack of caring and support when facing life's problems.

Family therapy is indicated in almost all cases when an adolescent is depressed. Your daughter is at risk until you make sure that she has meds and therapy, and until you learn how to provide the support that she needs. Ask the therapist to be directive with you and listen carefully while in "learning mode."

Get more info from the doctor about the level of suicidality. Lower risk (for the moment) is if it is simply feeling "life isn't worth living" or "I just wish I would die in my sleep and not wake up." Does she have a plan as to how she would kill herself? (higher risk) Does she have a plan as to when? (shows intent and extreme risk, indicating hospitalization). Is it conditional (if this, then that)? Has anyone close to her suicided, or are any of her friends contemplating suicide? Do some reading up on risk assessment and discuss it with doctors/therapist.

It's very likely that there are multiple underlying psychosocial stressors, both past and present which contribute to the depression: history of trauma, victim of physical or sexual abuse, witness to DV, unresolved grief, marital separation/divorce, bullying, academic stress, etc. Any major issues should be dealt with and resolved in therapy.

Daily aerobic exercise, positive social activities, and sunlight are beneficial at reducing depression. Get her involved in organized sports like soccer or basketball. If you can't pry her out of the house, some teens will do a video dance game (DDR). Get her out and moving. Get control of the electronics. Virtual friends (Facebook etc.) are not a substitute for quality activities with non-depressed friends.

If you are having problems with her behavior, such as, poor compliance, disrespectful communication, or find yourself threatening to punish or restricting her, then you have an ineffective punishment system. Teens will respond very well to a reward system. Punishment usually results in teens getting angry (externalizing) or depression (internalizing). Teens who feel powerless, sorry for themselves, and picked-on (victim script) will feel empowered to make good things happen with the help of a reward system. My model for such a behavior modification system gets fantastic results in a matter of weeks.
Juan Maderita

Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
May 3, 2013 - 08:00pm PT
Lots of Prozac bashing here and elsewhere. Of the "modern" antidepressants, it is the first (late 1980s). So, it is very well studied. Often the first choice when prescribing an antidepressant. Then, if it is ineffective or has undesireable side effects, another med is tried.
Don't think of one antidepressant being "stronger" than another. They are just chemically different and work on the neurotransmitters in different ways.
Prozac has an activating effect; it seems to help depressed patients with lethargy get of the couch and get moving, or out of bed in the morning. It may increase anxiety for those who have significant anxiety combined with depression.
Zoloft seems to be neutral in the activating - calming continuum.
Paxil is good at reducing anxiety for those with mixed anxiety and depression.
All are SSRI's, and have their nuances.
Are the "docs" psychiatrists? Psychiatrists should have a better "feel" for what is the best choice of meds. Some pediatricians and general practioners are well versed, others not so much.
joy bar

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
thnx for the very useful information, I can self-parse the life diagnosis based on a few words. I assume you don't make medical decisions based on a sentence of communication? Eh sorry for that. Uncalled for. Your advice is very appreciated.

My daughter is a runner, so no issue there, though they say she is anorexic.

There appears to be no "trigger" which is why I believe we can do our best,
but sometimes our best is not good enough.

edit-seen a stable full of docs-broad spectrum of education
yes anxiety also-so good advice there-thnx

edit-edit- I too like Tami's advice which is what am doing here.


GhoulweJ

Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
May 3, 2013 - 08:15pm PT
Tami
FTMFW
Juan Maderita

Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
May 3, 2013 - 08:24pm PT
I'll cut you some slack if you agree that it was a poor choice of words in your OP. Okay? :)

She's a runner? Hmmm, don't see highly active teens get depressed so often, even with my patients who have horrific backgrounds of abuse/neglect.

In the absence of major psychosocial stressors the treatment might lean more toward medication. Finding the right med or combination of antidepressants could take a few tries. Again, look at family history for clues.

Also, rule out OCD. OCD tends to be genetic. She runs a lot and anxious. Running may be a way to cope with an overflow of thoughts and anxiety (great strategy, btw). OCD is often hard to diagnose as patients often don't want to divulge how crazy they feel inside (they aren't crazy, they are just overthinking). If the doc/therapist doesn't interview with specific questions, it may never come to light. Of the major psychiatric disorders, OCD has the longest time from onset of symptoms to diagnosis.
People with OCD are always stressed at trying to cope with the disorder. That frequently results in depression and feelings of wanting to give up, and suicidal ideation.
SSRI's are the most effective at treating OCD, in double to triple the dosage that is typical for depression.
joy bar

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2013 - 08:37pm PT
Jaun I will admit that humor is often all we have between drowning in our tears be it cancer, a daughter with depression, etc. But yes, Ok.

No abuse/neglect-though it does make us wonder.

Genetic wise, no real adult depression on either side. Teenage depression? Yes, not treated with meds. Treated with time.

What gets us, is all the docs we see recommend meds after talking to our daughter for a 1/2 hour and recommend prozac right off the bat. That bothers us. Every individual is different and I would think medical treatment should be different for each individual.

Jaun, both parents are reading your responses and really appreciate it





Juan Maderita

Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
May 3, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
Wow, you got an entire half hour with the doc? !!! Must have good insurance (insert humor here). Unfortunately, that is what psychiatry has come to. Follow-up appts are even shorter.

Oops, re-reading this, I missed it when I wrote my last post:
My daughter is a runner, so no issue there, though they say she is anorexic.

Does she exhibit symptoms of anorexia nervosa?
Any body dysmorphia?
Does she additionally have exercise anorexia? (aka: exercise athletica, compulsive exercise, hpergymnasia, sports anorexia)
How many miles does she run in a day or week? Does she carefully keep track of her miles and/or times. Is she agitated if she misses a workout? Depressed or angry over a slower time/less mileage?

It all points to brain chemistry problems in the area of OCD, compulsive, anorexic. Onset of those symptoms is most likely to occur with females, and in their teens/early twenties. While OCD is most commonly treated with SSRI's, I've heard that the effectiveness of Prozac on anorexia is poor. That study was several years ago. Sorry, I'm not up on current research with anorexia.

Your daughter will benefit by supportive psychotherapy to deal with the burden of constant and repetitive thoughts. Cognitive Behavior Therapy (CBT) has been shown to be effective with OCD. Look for a therapist who specializes in OCD and eating disorders.

In my limited experience, anorexia combined with compulsive exercise and OCD is hard to treat. The person who suffers from that combination might reject medication or any attempts to help. Because they really believe (ego syntonic thoughts) they are "fat" and that the exercise is healthy, they will argue to maintain their over-exercise and non-eating regimen. In a sense, they like where they're at, even if it's damaging their body. Adding to the problem is that some people gain weight on SSRIs, particularly Paxil. For the exercise-anorexic, that pill is "dealing with the devil."

The suicidal ideation may be the result of years of struggling to cope with the OCD, anxiety, body image and consequent low self-esteem. Depression may not have been the primary issue, but is it now due to the risk of suicide. Depression is often "cured" without relapse. Your daughter's syptoms are likely to be a chronic problem which must be managed.

Not trying to be pessimistic about her prognosis; just pointing out the need for highly skilled and knowledgeable psychiatrist and therapist in those specific areas.

No abuse/neglect-though it does make us wonder.
She should be interviewed by a skilled professional to rule out a history of sexual abuse. Firstly, because the prevalence is so high. Secondly, the co-occurrence with anorexia is high.
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
May 3, 2013 - 10:05pm PT
Medication of ANYKIND is NEVER the answer to ANY problem. . Period. Period. Period. .

ALL ur answers r in the Bible!

Get a clue
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 3, 2013 - 10:07pm PT
get that sheeit and send it to me.
Robb

Social climber
It's Ault or Nunn south of Shy Annie
May 3, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
Pat,
Hope you're hanging in there. So sorry to hear about Jennie-glad her med. is helpng. My opinion,(and it's just that,an opinion), is purely anecdotal based on 30+ years of experience of myself and my wife in and out of the medical field.

Take care man,
Robb
joy bar

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 3, 2013 - 10:17pm PT
"She should be interviewed by a skilled professional to rule out a history of sexual abuse. Firstly, because the prevalence is so high. Secondly, the co-occurrence with anorexia is high."

I agree.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 4, 2013 - 09:59am PT
My best friend and paramedic partner offed himself on Prozac!

Like overdosed? They generally don't turn the trick as well as the tricyclic antidepressants, but in quantity.... Sorry to hear you lost a friend that way though, I can't imagine how bad that must feel.

I'm torn on the issue. Antidepressants work for some and not for others. Some supplements like fish oil have proven to work as well as antidepressants! But if you are worried (as you have the right) I would have your daughter go to therapy. Docs love to prescribe and don't always do the right thing concerning therapies that will solve the underlying issues. This is true even in regards to physical therapy.
monolith

climber
SF bay area
May 4, 2013 - 11:13am PT
Diet changes can help. Reduce junk/processed foods, more fruits, veggies and greens. If she is a runner, she may be interested in fueling her body properly.

Also, just not getting enough calories can cause mood problems. My world looks much better to me when I'm fully carbed.
joy bar

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 4, 2013 - 11:58am PT
The docs keep trying to pressure us into prescribing prozac.

Therapy and some natural supplements does seem a better approach for the
situation. The one medication for all approach really freaks us out.

(not OCD-doesn't keep track if how much she runs, doesn't need to run everyday)
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
May 4, 2013 - 12:36pm PT

THREAD DRIFT:

"Medication of ANYKIND is NEVER the answer to ANY problem."...


Tell that to the MILLIONS and MILLIONS of lives SAVED by using MEDICATIONS...

and think BLITZO (You REALLY believe that medications are BAD???)...

Robb

Social climber
It's Ault or Nunn south of Shy Annie
May 4, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
Jebus,
Not OD'ed, he hung himself.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 5, 2013 - 01:52am PT
If you can find a very good in house longterm facility that you can afford I would recommend it.

Meds can help. DO not fear any of them if supervised properly with a willingness to adjust until properly fitted is the plan.

The brain is a sensitive organ. Chemical imbalances can create very destructive behavior for no other rational cause. For youngsters this is often a temporary issue but a critical one while it is in effect. Life is sooo good that even at the worst of times there is no reason to be so deeply upset. If they can't see that fact something is very wrong. Anytime anyone young and basically healthy is considering suicide it is time for whatever measures to protect them until whatever needs fixing is fixed.

If you keep getting the same answer over and over from several professionals then it would seem a good idea to take that advice. The key is observation and supervision over time and if that cannot be done with confidence at home then it should be done at an inhouse facility.

Seriously all this handwringing over Prozac? Compared to so much stuff you yourself have probably done at some party prozac is a lightweight. Like perhaps alchohol.. thats one hell of a nasty drug.

Not that any of that stuff is a joke.

But again observe supervise and adjust. It is basically keeping your kid on toprope while they try something difficult. Worst that happens if properly supervised is a six inch fall.

All this hand wringing over properly prescribed drugs for serious psychiatric issues is not reasonable. They are tools that one uses like any other tool. An skilled expert tries the number 5 nut and it's just a bit off so he goes for the number 4 and it fits.. like any serious climb one does not take the first assessment of conditions for granted and continually upgrades their judgement based on new input. Weather changes and decisions must be made.. different tactics and actions applied.

Prozac may just be the first piece of pro selected.. it may not fit or it might be bomber... but doing some bounce testing should give a good indication.

While I understand being concerned about side effects, I do not understand being so terrified of them that one does not take multiple trained experts concurring advice due to the anti-science fad of distrust of experts. There is a whole industry of diet supplement pushing snake oil salesmen with no scientific basis for their claims out there. They are predators who actively seek out and prey on vulnerable desperate folks with serious issues. One of their best weapons is this over distrust of science and doctors.

Doctors are not perfect, psychiatry is not a perfect science but it is MUCH better than guesswork and kneejerk one size fits all that it might appear to be. It is the best organized group of people and knowledge specifically for the purpose of helping if depression is an issue.

Not to say that nutrition is something not to look at. I would if it were my daughter. But I would not disregard the advice of multiple doctors and go first to diet. While occasionally diet has dramatic outcomes regarding depression it is not the most common cause. Dolt's daughter who posts here certainly has a very direct specific diet issue related to severe depression. Her sharing of it and the solution that finally worked for her is amazing. Unfortunately for many folks that solution only works in specific situations.

Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
May 5, 2013 - 05:48am PT
alchohol.. thats one hell of a nasty drug.

Climbski2, I agree. One of the worst. I have posted this before but I believe it is still worth posting again.

In 2011 the World Health Organization did a study on 30 abused substances. There were two categories - firstly, the harm to the individual, and secondly the harm to society.

Guess what substance came in number one in both categories.

In moderation, alcohol is okay, but it is still a neurotoxin.

I know that this has nothing to do with Joy's post, so please excuse the thread drift.

When I first met Jennie, she suffered from pretty severe depression. She doesn't as much now, but about a year or so ago I asked one of her GPs if she still needs Citalopram, that she isn't as depressed as she used to be.

"Yes, she still needs it," was the reply. And she does. It helps.
Bad Climber

climber
May 5, 2013 - 09:08am PT
We're all a bunch of climbing bums on this here Taco stand, but I would proceed with extreme caution. These psych drugs are the most over-proscribed pills out there, and there are plenty of stories of people having severe, life-changing, life-ending side effects.

Some reading:

Death Grip by climber Matt Samet

Prozac Nation

The Emperor's New Drugs

Right now on my nightstand is a book my wife just finished. Frankly, she was horrified at what she read, and it backs up our recent reading of Death Grip. Check it out:

Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker.

There is also a particular nutritional deficit that teenagers especially can suffer from--I think it's one of the B vitamins, although I'm not sure. My wife is a nutritional educator with a master's degree and has a clinical practice as well as writing curriculum for a college. She's away right now or I'd get you the nutrition info. I'll check back ASAP. Seriously, this is the real deal. Whatever you do, I would exhaust all non-med options FIRST. Drugs work for some people, but you don't want her to be one of those who are messed up on them. Remember, psychiatrists do ONE thing: proscribe drugs. And when you have problems because of the drugs they proscribe, what do they do? Proscribe more drugs. It can be a damn death spiral.

I wish you wisdom and your daughter a clear path ahead.

Oh, I don't think Scientology is the answer! Ugh.

BAd
Bad Climber

climber
May 5, 2013 - 09:11am PT
Looking at one of the posts up thread mentioned she's a runner. DO look into her nutrition big time. A super low cal diet is what pushed Samet over the edge.

BAd
Bad Climber

climber
May 5, 2013 - 09:40am PT
Okay, I've got a little info:

First off, here's a person who works with depression and other disorders using therapy and nutrition. Check out her credentials, articles, etc. The book might be useful, too:

http://www.moodcure.com/

My wife says that there are many possible supplements that can help with depression, but some to check into are good foods to start with, especially sufficient protein during the day. Morning is critical.

Supps:

Vit. B6 (p-5-p variety)
Magnesium and zinc
5 HTP
Vit. D
DHA/fishoil/omeg 3's
and "bioactive" folate

Of course, each person is unique. Do some serious homework. Be prepared for MD's to scoff at nutrition. Most have almost no education in the field and quickly discount its importance. One thing we've read is that long term outcomes for therapy are much better than for drugs.

Wish you all the best in this tough time. We're pulling for you and your family.

BAd
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
May 5, 2013 - 10:25am PT
There is also a particular nutritional deficit that teenagers especially can suffer from--I think it's one of the B vitamins

Bad Climber and others

The B complex vitamins is/are so important to the brain and nervous system. Thiamine (B1) deficiency (due to alcoholism) is what caused Jennie’s Korsakoff’s Syndrome.

I agree that Joy should look into other avenues, but I am not a medical professional any longer.
joy bar

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2013 - 10:56am PT
Thank you all kindly.

It would be great if there was one cam, say a number one (red) camelot, that fit every crack, but like climbing people are all different. So by simple math, since all the docs are suggesting the same drug I can't help but think it is just a "learned" reaction and not a thought out recommendation.

Nutrition does seem to be a key. Our diet is very healthy, but we can
all use a nutritional boost.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 5, 2013 - 11:19am PT
However like different climbers all inspecting the same crack it would be normal for them to agree that the red camalot is the best fit. If indeed the crack is that size. One may realize that A metolius cam or a Wildcountry cam could also work but all would agree that the red camolot is just fine. Is this a learned reaction or thought out? Both of course.


Please look at it this way and what is happening will make more sense.

If a friends comes to you with a mild headache what do you recommend? An NSAID (class of drugs) of course. Be it Tylenol or Aspirin or perhaps Ibuprofin. It's so basic you don't have to give it much thought.

Prozak is merely the most well known well studied of it's class of drug. Sure a doc could choose something slightly different that works basically the same way but why not just go with.. take two asperin and call me in the morning. Maybe he could have said take two tylenol and call me in the morning.

Later if prozac seems close but not quite the doc might try something related to prozac but prozak is a reasonable starting place.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
May 5, 2013 - 11:29am PT
we now see a host of young folks who have been on these mind drugs for some time. They are in their early twenties now.. Some of them have made the news recently with their horrific acts against society.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 5, 2013 - 11:31am PT
"we now see a host of young folks who have been on these mind drugs for some time. They are in their early twenties now.. Some of them have made the news recently with their horrific acts against society."




We now see young people who have eaten sandwiches from port of subs for some time who are in their twenties who have committed terrible acts..

-----


Perhaps they needed more drugs ron? Perhaps a small percentage of people in this world are really f*#ked up and it's hard to save them no matter what you do? Considering that young people have done some messed up stuff throughout history your statement is just what i was referring to..

There is reasonable skepticism and caution then there is just plain paranoia regarding science and medicine.



locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
May 5, 2013 - 11:36am PT


"It would be great if there was one cam, say a number one (red) camelot, that fit every crack"...

I actually think THAT would be AWFUL...

;-)

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
May 5, 2013 - 11:46am PT
Climb2ski,, i have personal experience. Decades ago i was on some of these mind drugs which DIDNT do one teensie thing for me.. Nadda -zippo, and zilch. I thought them to be 100% placebo. And i threw them away.

Now couple that with Gen X being some of the WORST PARENTS ive seen in my life (not all of course). Ive friends who NEVER should have reproduced. Their kids are outta control, their family life a joke. And what do they reach for?? Prozac, zoloft, paxil etc etc..

Ohhwww dont DARE spank yur kids.. Thats cruel.. But sticking them on mind benders is a GUD idea?

And yeah little ronnie was a shyt when young too-- he had his times. But INSTEAD of reching for the drug bottles,, a paddle was grabbed instead.. And with the swings of said paddle,, my ADD was c-u-r-e-d...But that paddle is now absent- replaced with bottles of little mind drugs..Thank gawd i grew up when i did.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 5, 2013 - 11:51am PT
Yep you have one experience and you have seen some other crappy folks who abuse drugs to control their kids.

Trust me this stuff is not a placebo. Its affect can be wonderful or terrible or some mix therin.. thus why it's use should be closely observed and supervised., But it should not be disregarded when every expert opinion you have diligently and with deep love and concern for your childs well-being keeps coming to the same answer.

It would be like questioning 3 climbers about what to use for pro They all quickly recommend the red camolot but you insist in asking about slinging a chickenhead that is not visible.
joy bar

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2013 - 11:54am PT
ex. Prozac is not the right drug (according to the interweb) for anxiety.
What raised the flag in this case was an anxiety attack.

So would be like trying to use a #4 Camelot on Jam Crack. Wrong tool for the right crack (and for the left one for that matter).

I gather all SSRI's are not the same, and they are not just slightly different.

Just as Tylenol (poison don't take), Aspirin (thins your blood), and Ibuprofen (anti-inflammatory) are all very different.

aside: Death Grip looks like a useful book, thnx for the recommendation

of note: These docs have only seen our daughter for single short visits/evaluations. We are not against medication,
just as we are not against surgery for a torn knee, but we want second (and so on) opinions based on evidence/experince, so the discussion here has been great.

edit: ah looking for the chicken head, on a dark night, on a dark slab, where there may or may not be a chicken head, ah an oldie but a goodie
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 5, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
Each of those NSAIDS are very safe if used as directed for a headache and each will work pretty much as well as the other for a mild headache. Sure one might work better than other for certain people or a certain type of headache. But the differences between them are much more slight than the difference between not using any one of them on a headache.

I am oversimplifying my points for sure. I am trying to combat a tendency so common these days. Such that folks just immediately disregard the advice of people who have spent years even decades of their lives dedicated to the study and service of people suffering from depression.

I am simply suggesting the possibility that the advice you are getting is good. Especially since you say many docs are agreeing. I hope the very best for you and your family. Very sincerely. I have found that proper usage of medication can be a real blessing. It may be the correct tool. Not perfect I'm sure and not a pleasant tool to find oneself in need of.

Sometimes it can be too easy to miss the forest for the trees if one is not experienced and expert in a field.

It's scary .. I know

Tami really nailed it on the first page.

I wouldn't be too quick to either embrace or reject medication for a teen.

( I work with teens & have 2 kids in their twenties now )

I am familiar with situations where there has been over-medicating as well as under-medicating. Sometimes telling a kid to bootstrap it doesn't work. Rejecting medications because a person "should live with ups and downs" sometimes isn't an option.

You need to research what the needs of your individual teen are.

One thing I am sure of is that you won't be guilty of over medicating your teen.. If you do choose to try it and it dosn't work well for her I am sure you would be quick to end that as treatment.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
May 5, 2013 - 12:10pm PT
in the mid 60s, kids were expected to be kids.. They PLAYED like kids,, and didnt have cell phones computers or any of the like. During those times i dont remember a single incident of some young person offing themselves. Perhaps some did,, but it must have been rather rare. Because my class mates did not have these problems of today.

Kids now are dressing and acting like adults (term used LOOSELY) at ever increasingly early ages. The exposure they get from the INTERNET alone has,, i TRULY believe, deformed the growth of our children these days. Friggin porno is EVERYWHERE on the net. You can do a search for a BIRD species and walla,, theres PORN on the first page. And of course,, if some youngster ISNT on my space, facey book or any of the others, they just arent "with it " and cool now right?


What is evident and seemingly ignored is the proof right here in this site- where many times, "adults" can no more co-operate or be civil than the man on the moon. And somehow we think this wont affect our youth in the same ways?
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
May 5, 2013 - 12:14pm PT


...

kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 5, 2013 - 12:28pm PT
A group of docs want to put my kid on prozac because
she has suicidal thoughts.


By all means you should ignore the advice of your doctors and follow the advice you receive here.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
May 5, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
^^^

+1



EDITED:

I agree!!!...

It's the SAFEST thing to do...

I mean really...

listen to QUALIFIED professionals or ST posters???...




kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 5, 2013 - 12:35pm PT
stick around here for a while and you may be convinced that climate change is a myth, the earth is flat and sandy hook was an inside job.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
May 5, 2013 - 12:40pm PT


"climate change is a myth, the earth is flat and sandy hook was an inside job."...


Of course it's ALL 100% true!!!...

What's your point???...

;-)

kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 5, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
I just climbed the first 5.16 in woodfords canyon yesterday, it is unconfirmed and I think it may stay that way for a while.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
May 5, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
Very interesting stuff there, Juan. I used to have more of an interest in antidepressants and their effects, but I have not kept up with research for many years.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
May 5, 2013 - 12:47pm PT


"I just climbed the first 5.16 in woodfords canyon yesterday"...

I believe you!!!...

Why???...

Well, because you posted it, HERE...

Do I need any other reason???...

;-)




EDITED

It get's OLD hearing all the BS about the meds out there...

No SH!T they don't work for everyone...

But they DO work for MANY/Most(???) and they work, WELL!!!...

MORE lives are saved by the use of SSRI's, than the opposite...



joy bar

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2013 - 01:02pm PT
I make all my life decisions on what I read on super topo.

Don't U?
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 5, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
Of course.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
May 5, 2013 - 01:06pm PT


Me too!!!...

Doesn't EVERYONE???...
Eric Beck

Sport climber
Bishop, California
May 5, 2013 - 01:16pm PT
In 1994, Alberto Salazar, ten years after winning the NY Marathon three times, won the Comrades ultra marathon (54 miles, South Africa). He attributed this success to prozac.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
May 5, 2013 - 01:22pm PT


A favorite of mine...

"the SSRI caused him/her to commit suicide"...


and WHY were they prescribed the drug in the first place???...

Depression???...

Suicidal ideation???...

Hmmm...


kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 5, 2013 - 01:40pm PT
and WHY were they prescribed the drug in the first place???...
Bad Climber

climber
May 5, 2013 - 01:42pm PT
Interesting anecdote about Salazar. Small world: I actually know his brother, a retired fighter pilot, although I think he still works for the military just no longer in the pilot's seat. Quite a family of achievers, that one!

BAd
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
May 5, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Uh, Climbski2, Tylenol is not an NSAID. Just for the record. Cheers.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 5, 2013 - 02:04pm PT
hey..looky there..I just looked it up and P is correct and I was wrong. Tylenol (Acetominophen) does not apparently have anti-inflamatory properties.. I learned something new. Thanks patrick. Thus why I personally don't argue with several real experts who all quickly and independantly agree on something.

I am much more likely to be wrong than they are.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 5, 2013 - 02:12pm PT
Antipyretic, analgesic, I believe.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 5, 2013 - 02:24pm PT
Depression???...

Suicidal ideation???...

Hmmm...


A particular population, for sure.

There is evidence both ways, however.

Drug companies only pay to publish results verifying their drug's effectiveness.

Other, non-drug company funded studies point more towards an effect equal to placebo.

On an anecdotal tip, when I had some debilitating depression, just talking about it with a relatively unconcerned psychiatrist was what got me through since I stopped taking my prozac long before it could have had a therapeutic effect. Tough time, lucky to get through it.

But if getting prescribed a pill somehow improves your brain chemistry or just the act of others addressing your problem pulls you through, I say more power to you. Hopefully the side effects don't get you down too.

To me, it's like anything else. You can do the hard work if you have cholesterol problems and modify your diet, or you can take lipitor down the line; you can do therapy that addresses root problems along with your prozac script, maybe learn some coping skills, or you can just take drugs and hope for better living through chemistry.

If you think doctors can do no wrong, well, I am happy for your religious commitment and naivete.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 5, 2013 - 02:32pm PT
Balanced approaches seem a good place to look first.

No I don't blindly trust doctors. But I almost certainly would follow the advice of several doctors who independently agree when I go get 2nd and third opinions. Once taking their advice I'd be fully informed of possible negative side-effects and I'd carefully monitor the effects and look to make possible adjustments if something isn't going well. Keeping always an eye on the cost-benefit balance.

I absolutely would look to types of counseling. This helps in so many ways. No counseling and just drugs is only going half the distance of proper mental health care. It can be an critical part of the monitoring of the drugs effects. positive and or negative.

I would also look at possible improvement or specific issues of my diet.. hard to see how that could hurt and it certainly might help. But I wouldn't make it my main focus.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 5, 2013 - 02:34pm PT
Wasn't talking to you Climbski, quoted Locker there.

I don't know that considering options is extreme. You do have options, you know. Consider them?

Anyway, I'm going to work out any possible depressive tendencies I might be experiencing with a nice hike right now! You have a good one.

edit: Also, I thought we were agreeing. As you were saying, I certainly think getting several opinions is good policy. I just had an NP at my primary care provider who was pill happy. Granted, in Reno having a provider who'll prescribe you a metric butt ton of percocet at the drop of a hat is probably pretty popular, but I am much happier with my new doc who runs tests, considers supplements, herbals, as well as drugs and other treatment modalities. YMMV.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
May 5, 2013 - 02:42pm PT
yep it seems we are agreeing I might have just got caught up saying things a bit differently.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 5, 2013 - 03:14pm PT
I like Juan's posts. He knows what he is talking about.

I'm a family doctor, who probably prescribed antidepressants in some form virtually every day of my 30 year career. Never had a suicide, but I was not treating high-risk people. Probably used them more for sleep disorders than anything. Prozac was not one of my favorites, but it got used.

Being a family doc, I tend to take a larger overview of a person. I think their social and family milieu is very important to both diagnosis and treatment.

For example, the first thing that jumped out at me was the manipulation that this teen must encounter.....and teens do not respond well to manipulation. It means, to them, that they cannot trust the source.

What am I talking about? The title of the thread states "climbing related"----and clearly, it is not. That was a manipulation, and says to me that the information supplied by the OP is not trustworthy. You might consider what you are forcing upon your teen, and that her reaction is to that. This is commonly the case with anorexia, as well.....an attempt by a person to gain some control of their environment.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 5, 2013 - 04:03pm PT
This is commonly the case with anorexia, as well.....an attempt by a person to gain some control of their environment.

The anorexia commentary is pretty apt. My wife specializes in treating eating disorders. Not a path you want to go down, it is a devastating psychological disorder. Of course, the climbing community is probably chock full of anorexics.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
May 5, 2013 - 04:05pm PT

"You can do the hard work if you have cholesterol problems and modify your diet(EDITED: and EXERCISE), or you can take lipitor down the line;"...


Or do ALL the above and most likely be even BETTER off...

;-)



Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 5, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
Clearly, you have never heard of side effects.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
May 5, 2013 - 04:36pm PT
Just prescribing meds without including talk therapy is downright irresponsible and unprofessional.
locker

Social climber
Some Rehab in Bolivia
May 5, 2013 - 04:38pm PT


"Clearly, you have never heard of side effects."...


Don't be so certain!!!...

I am one of the UNLUCKY ones that CAN'T take "Statins" (EDITED: Posted this quite some time back)...

I had the super SERIOUS, threatening side effects...

But MOST, don't!!!...



I am now on a different type med for cholesterol issues...

;-)



EDITED:

Diet and exercise alone is NOT a 100% CURE ALL as some might tend to believe...




People die in car accidents daily...

I suppose we ALL had better stop driving...

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 5, 2013 - 04:55pm PT
Just prescribing meds without including talk therapy is downright irresponsible and unprofessional.

Really? so you do not subscribe to the concept that the method of treatment is entirely for the patient to decide? That a patient should not be in a position of being able to consent to what type of treatment they desire, if any, to receive?

The problem is when one starts down the "only", "never", "always" path. There is never anything that works with everyone, all the time.

I suppose you can "blackmail" patients: "I won't give you a medication unless you submit to talk therapy"-----but where is the ethics in that?
matlinb

Trad climber
Albuquerque
May 5, 2013 - 06:06pm PT
Just when I think it's not worth lurking on the Supertopo forum because of all the crap threads, posts from Juan and Ken come along.
TheTye

Trad climber
Sacramento CA
May 5, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
I went through some tough depression/anxiety times and a friend gave me a book on "cognitive therapy" that totally change my perspective. That was years ago and whenever I feel my thoughts trending that direction I can shut them down with logic. It is cool stuff.

I can't remember the name of the book. Sorry.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 5, 2013 - 06:53pm PT
Diet and exercise alone is NOT a 100% CURE ALL as some might tend to believe...

Oh, I believe you. I'm genetically prone to that sh#t. Doesn't mean I can't do more. I'm trying to avoid a statin myself.


Really? so you do not subscribe to the concept that the method of treatment is entirely for the patient to decide? That a patient should not be in a position of being able to consent to what type of treatment they desire, if any, to receive?

I think that's slightly BS. It should, at the least, be STRONGLY encouraged alongside the scripts. Perhaps OVER the script. Therapists are poo poo'd by their medical brethren who think but don't actually have the knowledge base to make sound decisions in that specialty.

But we get to check that box the way it is now.
The user formerly known as stzzo

climber
Sneaking up behind you
May 5, 2013 - 07:04pm PT
May have all been said already, but in case not:

Milder anti-depressant?

Any suggestions?

My doc told me that despite the many options they start with Prozac b/c it's the one least likely to have undesirable side-effects.

If you really want other options, study up on exactly what an SSRI does and other ways of increasing serotonin in the brain, both by lifestyle and other means (diet, amino acid supplements, exercise, etc).

They say that initially when on an SSRI you may feel more depressed, b/c an SSRI changes the way serotonin in your brain is processed / removed / produced, and there's an initial "adjustment" period.
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 5, 2013 - 07:06pm PT
this threads depressing
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 5, 2013 - 07:09pm PT
this threads depressing


You wouldn't last at my job.

I actually like depressed people over some of the psychological alternatives ;).
kennyt

climber
Woodfords,California
May 5, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
depressed people probably tend to be a little more low key
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 5, 2013 - 07:12pm PT
depressed people probably tend to be a little more low key

You got it! Many are pretty intelligent, you can have a decent conversation. They don't want to cause any fuss.... Yeah, from the medical side, they're good peeps.
joy bar

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
Depression is fully a climbing related topic.

Which if the reference to "Death Grip" doesn't convince you, just think of
all the folks who are vertical legends that have killed themselves.

One might argue that the let down after each major climb leads to a cycles of ups and downs (both physically and mentally) which over the long term leads many climbers into a depressive state between climbs and when they retire or cull back the risks they take.
--
Sort of some strange attacks here on a parent who is both concerned and frighten about their kid's well being.

As they used to say in my day, take a chill pill.

that aside, The back and forth has been great,

thanks
LilaBiene

Trad climber
May 6, 2013 - 01:06am PT
Just a few thoughts and suggestions, based primarily on my own experiences...

Have blood work done to make sure it's not a simple nutrient imbalance.

It's well worth having the docs test for celiac disease, including the genetic testing. I spent 41 years of my life hiding my feelings of depression, in large part because my family told me I had nothing to be depressed about and was, in essence, being SELFISH. I figured out that life-long severe anxiety and depression in my case was caused by the gluten in most grains. My life would have been entirely different, had this been discovered early -- instead of expending most of my energy on a day-to-day basis struggling to do things most people consider normal, but to me were herculean tasks (e.g., getting out of bed, dressed and actually going outside), this energy could have been utilized in a million different positive, life-enhancing ways.

When you are suffering from depression and anxiety, learning to cope with the ups and downs of life isn't even on the radar -- day to day, moment to moment survival is. If there's one thing that still raises my hackles (hence my response to this post well past my self-imposed sleep curfew), it's the idea that somehow, the depressed person has brought this upon herself, whether it be lack of coping skills, character flaws (read: unable to cope like everyone else), unwillingness to see all the good things she has in her life, etc. These ideas about depression are IGNORANT and DANGEROUS, and actually make the depressed person feel even worse.

Talking about a depressed child as if she is "the one with the problem" is similarly injurious. Frequently, the most sensitive child in a family will reflect what is going on inside of the family. Asserting that parents, siblings, etc. contribute in no way to a child's situation is frankly disturbing -- it essentially means that the child is an island and has been walled off by the family and isolated for...what? Being human?

If anorexia is present, first check to make sure she does NOT have celiac disease. I suffered with an eating disorder for 5 years in my teens -- or at least that was what I was told I was suffering from. In reality, I had already found what to eat to feel good, but my limited diet (largely vegetable based) was unacceptable to my parents and I was essentially force-fed food that made me sick (i.e., severely anxious and depressed).

If I am exposed to gluten now, I can chart roughly what I will be feeling when as it works its way through my system. Anywhere from 3-5 weeks after being exposed, I start suffering from severe, debilitating anxiety attacks and howling depression. Consciously, I know this will happen, but it doesn't make the physical manifestation of the feelings any less real.

A couple of resources to consider in conjunction with therapy (vetted and used multiple times throughout my life):

Book: Feeling Good (and the Feeling Good workbook) - can't remember author off-hand

CD/DVD series (infomercial) called "Attacking Anxiety and Depression" by Lucinda Basset (This really does work. Can not recommend it highly enough.)

Final thoughts:
Bootstrapping doesn't work. Period.

DMT started an interesting discussion on "Anxiety" a little while back -- there may be some helpful information for you there, too.

My birth dad committed suicide in his late 30s -- there isn't a day that goes by that I don't think about this...but then, I never had the chance to meet him and only accidentally discovered that I have celiac disease (which he very likely also suffered from) some 40 years after his death. What I would give to be able to travel back in time and tell hime of my discovery...but it's too late. (I wrote more about this in a TR called something like "Brandon's post on fear".)

I'm curious -- how does your daughter feel about being prescribed an anti-depressant? Have the doctors suggested a medication that works particularly well in anxious patients? Klonopin works particularly well for panic attacks.

Best of luck to you and your family, really.
A
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 6, 2013 - 11:13am PT
If there's one thing that still raises my hackles (hence my response to this post well past my self-imposed sleep curfew), it's the idea that somehow, the depressed person has brought this upon herself, whether it be lack of coping skills, character flaws (read: unable to cope like everyone else), unwillingness to see all the good things she has in her life, etc. These ideas about depression are IGNORANT and DANGEROUS, and actually make the depressed person feel even worse.

When I mention coping skills, I essentially mean talk therapy. My position is that therapists and other well trained mental health specialists (NOT MDs) should be the ones guiding the course of treatment. Therapy is very effective for treating depression even without med use. Here's an excerpt from an article comparing drugs with therapy:

http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20040907/drug-vs-talk-therapy-for-depression?page=2

A combination of talk therapy and drugs worked best for treatment of depression and anxiety. But those whose treatment consisted of mostly talk therapy did almost as well if they had 13 or more visits with the therapist.
Treatment consisting of mostly drug treatment was also effective for many people. Drugs had a quicker impact on symptoms than talk therapy, but it often took trial and error to find a drug that worked without undesirable side effects.
More than 50% of survey respondents who took antidepressants tried two or more drugs; 10% tried five or more. "It really does have to be a process of trial and error... because there's no predicting people's response to [antidepressants]," says Nancy Metcalf, a Consumer Reports senior editor and author of the survey.
Side effects were much more common than noted on the medications' package information: 40% said they experienced a loss of sexual interest or performance, and almost 20% said they gained weight. Why the discrepancy? In clinical trials, people are not asked specifically about certain side effects, Metcalf tells WebMD. "They were expected to volunteer the information, and they may not be as willing to do that."
Treatment from primary care doctors was effective for people with mild problems, but less so for people with more severe ones. Treatment by mental health specialists yielded significantly better results for people who started out in poor shape.
Health insurance plan limits on therapy visits and costs kept some people from getting the best treatment.
Consumers who did their own research and monitored their own care reported better results.
More than 80% of survey respondents said they found treatment that helped.

And for those wanting to prescribe first and ask questions later for the teenage daughter, another quote from the same article:

The link between antidepressants and suicide rates among children and adolescents is "a very serious issue" that both Congress and the FDA are investigating in hearings, he noted. An FDA panel is meeting next week to determine if there is an increase in suicide and suicidal thoughts among kids taking antidepressants. The agency sent out a warning to doctors last year to be on the lookout for worsening depression or suicidal thoughts in these kids.

Yes, let's prescribe meds first! Roll the dice with young brains, sounds like a great deal.

If anorexia is present, first check to make sure she does NOT have celiac disease.


I'd venture to say the vast majority of anorexia cases are NOT celiac disease, but it is a serious disease. If you want to know the proper course of treatment for anorexia, I could get you the actual information since that's what my wife does for a living. Anorexia is usually not a quick fix situation in the least.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 6, 2013 - 12:26pm PT
Don't do it. The docs put me on prozac when I was 13. It made me all f*cked up. Really, don't do it.


What does she enjoy?
LilaBiene

Trad climber
May 6, 2013 - 09:30pm PT
Hey, JHB, I wasn't aiming my comments at what you posted and am sorry if it appeared that way. My comments were in response to the OP.

But your point is well taken -- I am not a therapist nor a doctor -- I can only speak to my own experiences.

After some self-reflection after reading your post above, I think I reacted strongly to the OP for a number of reasons, but mainly because I learned about a year ago that my birth dad committed suicide and I still feel sadness about this -- a successful suicide is forever -- no second chances. I DON'T believe that prescription drugs should be a first choice, and I believe that they are tremendously over-prescribed. Having observed first-hand a very young relative that was put on ADHD and sleep meds before the age of 8 years old, and who is now in college, still unable to function without both (and now on seriously strong sleep meds), it is still inconceivable to me that the parents never bothered to try adjusting diet and exercise because it took too much effort. Also, I spent 40+ years of my life ashamed of feeling depressed, with parents that towed the line of "just get it together -- you're just not trying hard enough" -- and I believed it..

The medical impacts of celiac disease and anorexia are in may ways very similar -- they both create serious imbalances in nutrition, which in turn create drastic changes in the levels of neurotransmitters in the brain. I lived in shame of my eating disorder my entire life. It wasn't until about a year and a half ago, after getting "glutened" for the first time after having eliminated grains from my diet completely, that I put celiac disease and eating disorders together. The rebound effect after getting exposed to gluten creates a massive nutritional deficit -- my body was so desperate for food that I barely felt able to control my urges to eat gluten-containing foods. This wild, out-of-control feeling toward food is the basis for various eating disorders, but I never made the connection until I had been glutened and had to fight the very primal urges to consume foods that would wreak even greater havoc on my system if I gave in.

Perhaps my empathy for the plight the OP's daughter is overly strong -- but I remember that period of my life in painful detail, and wanted to simply offer what I have to give. My God, I hope she's doing alright.
Spider Savage

Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
May 6, 2013 - 10:00pm PT
The world is in a strange place today.

Instead of struggling to survive against dangers of life, the current generations seeks a better form of entertainment and social acceptance. Thus it is no wonder that humans are having so many troubles.

"Chemical Imbalance" is a big pharma marketing line. The reality is that there is not scientific study to support this. It seems sensible because if you pour alcohol, a chemical, in you body, it seems to make a big affect on the mind in many ways.

We are in an age of "blood letting" and "leeches" to cure problems of the mind. At last, the mainstream is waking up to this:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/2013/05/04/psychiatry-in-crisis-mental-health-director-rejects-psychiatric-bible-and-replaces-with-nothing/

A drug with a side-affect of suicide sounds like a very poor cure for suicidal thoughts.

I certainly hope you can find a solution as a result of honest communication.

I've got a bag full of solutions here but it's a complicated problem that requires much more than an internet forum discussion. There are no "instant" buttons or easy fixes, usually.

Here is one easy one: Vitamin B1 is a stress fixer. (Thamin) I like the TwinLab brand in a powder in gel caps. If she's feeling stressed giver her 500 MG and in about half an hour she'll enjoy about 2 hours of normal.

I used to give 100 mg cap to my kids when they woke up with nightmares or just got scared at night. Works like charm.

Now that is the quick fix. If you find it works you'll need to have her get a whole regimen of vitamins because they need to be balanced. A calcium supplement is needed to go with it if you are going to use it on a regular basis.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Peavine Basecamp
May 6, 2013 - 10:11pm PT
Hey, JHB, I wasn't aiming my comments at what you posted and am sorry if it appeared that way. My comments were in response to the OP.

Oh, didn't get that. Thanks for clearing that up, and for sharing your experiences.
verticalbound

Trad climber
Anchorage
May 6, 2013 - 10:27pm PT
lexapro is a good one. I didnt read very much of any of the posts but from a personal stand point any predisposition you have towards an opinion of something like depression or any of the severely misdiagnosed and complicated personality disorders out there is probably wrong and severely ignorant, you need to talk to your daughter, and get her to do her own research, she needs to figure out what is is she has wrong with herself, self understanding is a big deal, I have severe depression & anxiety issues as well as having borderline personailty disorder and have almost never taken medication(except for anxiety) coping is hard, and even harder if you feel like everyone has already made judgement of your issues without ever walking a mile in your shoes, people comment on those that have killed themselves while on prozac or other medicines... medicine for personality disorders doesnt solve sh#t like an antibiotic for an infection just cause you take it does not mean the symptoms disappear they might help but you still suffer. The strongest point to be made is its a chemical thing, when your brain refuses to work right even when you know its wrong, even when you can acknowledge that the way you feel is rediculous and doesnt make sense youre still a victim to your own disfunction and still viably in danger of hurting yourself in spite of what you want.
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