"FISTICUFFS ON EVEREST" - The Daily Fail at it again

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crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 4, 2013 - 10:29pm PT
Oh man, Ron is staking his claim with the Sniveling Sherpa Apologist's!! What a team. Drinks for everyone!

Sherpa's can do no wrong because they live there....oh, I get it.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 4, 2013 - 10:32pm PT
Reasonable skilled people do not use ropes there and the dander of falling ice or rock is null - it just does not fall.

Sherpa Mingma Dorje is killed on the Lhotse Face by falling ice

So, Vlani, you and your ignorant hero should climb back into your armchairs.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
May 4, 2013 - 10:34pm PT
Crankster,

I never said it's impossible for Sherpas or anyone else to go nuts and do the wrong thing.

There is no excuse for violence but it certainly ain't going out of style as a form of communicating when reason takes a back seat to commerce.

abrams

Sport climber
May 4, 2013 - 10:38pm PT
The sahibs had HD video gear. Very likely in the process of peddling it to the highest bidder for a reality show.

Video of Sherpa yelling, "No as#hole! You cannot step over my rope to your tent!" will be the money shot if it exists. Hope it does not. To horrible.

Credit: abrams








Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
May 5, 2013 - 06:25am PT
Wow what a bunch a lip flippers Quite Fun to read! Considering most of you have never even put on crampons .
The closest you all get to a big mountain is driving by Mount Shasta going to visit your aunt in Portland
That's right you are rock climbers , Specialists, With no real earned opinions for big mountains!
In other words simply Monday morning quarterbacking!
crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
May 5, 2013 - 07:43am PT
OK, Tami, I don't know Jim B. and he's probably a nice guy.

Maybe there's a rush to judgement on all sides. Things will sort themselves out as climbers return home. Jonathan Griffith's video should be illuminating, if he was filming at the time.

One thing for sure; there are too many people on the South Col route and bad things are bound to happen on occasion.

PS: stu, I was putting on crampons when you were putting on diapers.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
May 5, 2013 - 07:54am PT
whut u tawkin bout Stewie! Ive done da direkkt on ROUND TOP! Sure it took me a while to realize the crampons were on backwards..
Rick A

climber
Boulder, Colorado
May 5, 2013 - 08:53am PT
Stewart said:

The closest you all get to a big mountain is driving by Mount Shasta going to visit your aunt in Portland
That's right you are rock climbers , Specialists, With no real earned opinions for big mountains!
In other words simply Monday morning quarterbacking!


Well played; that is a deft use of the “Greater Ranges” Ploy, as described by Tom Patey.

For this ploy some previous Himalayan experience is essential; it may involve a tourist weekend in Katmandu, a transcendental meditation with the Maharishi. Once the aura has formed, you can hardly go wrong. You can patrol the foot of Stanage with all the authority of an Everester. No one expects you to climb. It is enough that you retain a soft spot for your humble origins.

“This is all very different from the South Col!” you can remark crisply, as you watch bikini-clad girls swarming over the rock like chameleons. Any off-the-cuff comment of this nature goes down well, and gives them something to talk about after you have moved on. As I said before, nobody really expects a man who has survived the South Col to risk his neck on a paltry outcrop.

..."But let us keep our sense of proportion, and remember that British crags are not an end in themselves but a Springboard to the Greater Ranges. The Battle of Waterloo was won on the playing fields of Eton! That is something we must all remember..."
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
May 5, 2013 - 09:22am PT
Sounds like a case of dealing with immigrants stealing your jobs. Maybe they need a Labour Union.

Nepal has loads of Maoists. I saw a huge demonstration of Maoist women when I was last there.

Maoist Demo in K'du
Maoist Demo in K'du
Credit: John Duffield



Tami

Social climber
Canada
May 5, 2013 - 09:50am PT
OK, Tami, I don't know Jim B. and he's probably a nice guy.

I've known him for 35 years and he's most excellent.


For my part, I think everyone on & off this thread, Sherpas included, need to purchase a copy of my hilarious tome "EVEREST THE ULTIMATE HUMP"

I din't predict the donnybrook on the South Col route but I daresay someone has been up there in a full size hamster suit.

Again, respect to Jan for her notes on this thread. She has experience nobody's gonna get goin' over there climbin' rocks, ice 'n' snow.

And, yeah, I have worn crampons.

abrams

Sport climber
May 5, 2013 - 10:37am PT
Patey's 'greater ranges ploy' ! +1

Just 2 kinds of people in the world who have worn crampons. Those that are dead and those who are still alive or something like that.

Rainier north east side above camp shurman, arrested the climber behind me on our rope of 3 as a crampon rolled off her boot. Not a big tug as she started skating down the slope but got my attention fast enough.

Cut 4 feet off the end of the rope. Yanked the core strands out and tied the f**k out of that old style crampon.

But it kept rolling off and you know who had to start chopping steps




some nice Everest pictures.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/everest/photo-gallery
Burch3y

Mountain climber
San Diego
May 5, 2013 - 11:16am PT
We should totally thread-drift this into a mountaineers-are-cooler-than-rock-climbers debate.

Ready, begin!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 5, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
One thing for sure; there are too many people on the South Col route and bad things are bound to happen on occasion.

On this, there is certainly no debate.

My buddy, who's summitted 3X, 1stN, 2,3S.....has made me quite nervous by heading up into this crazy zone.

Another buddy, whose up there now, and the lead guide for one of the big groups and one of the 4 cited for breaking up the mob scene, makes me unhappy by being in that crazy zone.

There is just no way that you can have that diverse volume of people up in that constrained area, without drama breaking out. And the potential for large disasters only increase with population size.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
May 5, 2013 - 12:24pm PT
I can understand a climbing guide wanting to punch their ticket on Everest, as a career move. Reasonable, and important to business success, I'd imagine.

But spending year after year up there on the upper mountain seems to be an invitation to disaster.
Stewart Johnson

climber
lake forest
May 5, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
Things much worse than getting punched happen up there.
Altitude makes you do funny things, and its different every time.
Like i said before its a pity the elite team was even on the yak route,
even if they pulled off an "alpine style" ascent, theres just too many
people around right now for it to be fair.(that means you cant touch any
fixed ropes or get any help from the crowds all around you.
Of course getting down is different, without o2 im sure youll
grab a cord going down the Hillary step!)

If you are that elite what the fruk are you doing there of all places!
They should be using there sponsorship dollars to go off piste!
and if theres not enough of an explorer in them to go off piste,
Perhaps a post-monsoon ascent of the south yak would be easier
in terms of crowding
and also being more fair to the alpine style.
By off piste i mean any route but the two yak routes where the guests go.
Perhaps the elite were acclimating for the sw face?
orle

climber
Topic Author's Reply - May 5, 2013 - 02:30pm PT
Perhaps Stewart pulled a Patey, perhaps, but he DID post THIS photo, which should probably be in the header of this thread or sommat:





kolos

climber
Hungary
May 5, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
Ken M,

So let's see if I understand your logic: If I take a gun, and with great care fire it at your wife and children so as to hit all around them within a foot, without any injury whatsoever, you'd have no problem.

After all, you are arguing, no harm, no foul?

But then what is this argument about abseiling? Also no one hurt.

So what is your logic?

There is a proverb in Hungarian (for sure there is a counterpart in English but I do not know it): All comparisons limp. I think your comparison not only limps but one leg is completely missing...
Let's take your gun example: Simone, Ueli and Jon had the gun, but they had it on their belt and had no intention to use it. They did not want to fight with anybody they only went for their camp. Not too surprising: nobody was hurt.
In case of the abseiling Sherpa (who also had the gun) the gun got out of the belt, intentionally and was shot a couple of times. He did want to have some kind of fight (verbal and potentially physical with the abseiling on the solo climbers). The result is the same: nobody was hurt (thank God!).

The result is the same... but if you do not see the difference...

So you are basing your argument on speculation based on....what? Speculation? Your expectation of how you would act in treating Sherpa?

I'm fairly sure, based on my personal knowledge of a number of Everest climbers, that if you treated your Sherpa that way, daily, that OTHER CLIMBERS would give you a learning experience.
This is quite funny since I pretty much never use swear words (one of my very few positive characteristics). I remember exactly the two times in my 38 years when I did :)
Anyway I give you the point for this. For sure Simone said such outrageous words which had never been said before...

This attempt to portray Sherpa as attempting murder by swinging axes at, abseiling onto these poor unroped climbers is disgusting. Trolls, of course, which speaks only of the posters involved, who typically are afraid of putting their names to their opinions.
What happened?
swinging axes: check
abseiling onto unroped climbers: check
throwing big stones: check
death threats: check
Apparently these things happened. I am really sorry that you did not understand my "bad apple" point. I actually have a very high esteem of the Sherpas and I am quite sure that this view is shared by the majority who now condemns the violent actions. Your view is so simple: the Sherpas are great guys (without an exception) so this could not happen or it can be justified. Do you think that my or other's esteem for the Sherpas would lower if turns out that this was triggered by a couple of bad guys? There is no nation where you cannot meet crazy, insane, ignorant, etc. people.
If you stick to the point that this was triggered by the Westerners and the Sherpa reaction was natural then actually you portray and confirm what you oppose: any hiker/climber/anybody in Nepal can garner a mob attack quite easily with a couple of bad words. I do not think that this is the situation. You really do?

If you think that there was more dangerous actions by the westerners than bad words then list them. And please compare the level of danger to the situations when the commercial expedition leaders send the Sherpas into huge storms, avalanche prone slopes, etc because of bad decisions, incompetency or negligence or business interests. Many of these brave Sherpas rest on the flanks of Everest because of these reasons - but still I have never heard about violent reactions.


crankster:
Beg on your knees for forgiveness or we might kill you. Give me a f*#king break. Some of these lunatic Sherpa's need to go to jail. I'm sick of all this apologizing for them.

Jan, you're starting to make me ill. Ken already has.

No f*#king ice rained down on the poor, innocent Sherpa's. They got their pride and honor hurt, not their bodies. If they don't like it up there they should get a job doing something else.

couchmaster:
Sorry crankster, but Jan has deep credibility, is well known, and you hide who you are and have zero credibility. Not just because she is an intelligent and accomplished anthropologist and you are an anonymous annoying inarticulate douchbag. Actually, in reading your posts you have less than zero credibility. You come off sounding like a young kid in his moms basement. Not at all grown up or intelligent. Waving your arms around to get attention.

I do not agree with the style of crankster, but find it quite pathetic when somebody (in this case couchmaster) hides behind others (Jan) back without addressing any raised point (committed and intended acts on both sides). I am sure that Jan knows 1000 times more (hell even million times more) about Sherpas than me and could give us a valuable insight into the Sherpa thinking. But if the conclusion can be interpreted that way that these actions are anthropologically can be explained and at least not partially come from a couple of bad guys then this is a big disappointment for me and changes my absolutely positive picture about the Sherpas.

I think a lot other could be said which belongs to this history: the role of the commercial expeditions (now and historically), the (lack of) knowledge of the contemporary alpine style climbing in this region, etc. But it slowly dawns on me and I have to work today...
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
May 5, 2013 - 05:48pm PT
Did they ignore the Sherpas safety or honor? I think the Sherpas safety and honor was 1000 other times and 1000 times more ignored and compromised during the Everest climbs. We all know cases when these brave men were sent to drag down some halfdead millionaire as#@&%e westerner from the mountain who got in that position because of their inabilities and the bad judgment of the commercial expedition bosses. And are you really sure that this was the first time that swear words were used at Sherpas and their mothers? It is a shame but I am quite sure that this happens on a daily basis in the camps. Still we do not see a mob with covered faces to search for their truth.
No, I think this is really the "bad apple" case. It is sad to say but nothing extraordinary happened on the mountain that day. Nothing which does not happen 1000 times in a season. A couple of hurt ego drove a lot of other companion crazy using his power and position. I think a disservice to the normal majority if we try to explain this situation with cultural differences.


I want to really thank kolos for his thought provoking contribution and his honesty in explaining the situation as it really is up there. To me this reinforces the idea that the Sherpas are frustrated (they are humans and not saints!) and Moro, Steck, and Griffith just happened to take the blunt of that frustration.

Even so, I thought all day about these comments and I now think it could be a combination of both maybe. The sirdar commands immense power over people's jobs and summit opportunities so I could believe that many of the Sherpas there were afraid to defy him. I could believe many covered their faces because they were ashamed to be in that group and did not wish to be identified for that reason.

One weakness I have observed in Sherpa culture is that they are reluctant to deal with someone who does not follow their values. Pacifism has its problems, and in the absence of laws, can flip over into violence sometimes. In Rolwaling many of us had trouble for years because of one bully yet the local lama always counseled patience and not calling the Nepalese police because Buddhism teaches forgiveness.

Eventually this bully accosted a trekking group manned by Khumbu Sherpas, demanding money for camping on communal property. When they refused, he overturned a large cauldron of soup on the ground just as it was ready to be served. At that point the Khumbu Sherpas gave him a good beating while the Rolwaling people stood around and smirked. The Khumbu people then told him if he ever left Rolwaling they would kill him the next time. He never left again but many Rolwaling people eventually did for various reasons, including getting away from him. In the end, he had a change of heart and became very religious and nice to everybody. However, some of his sons are still causing trouble and they have been completely ostracized by the Rolwaling community in Kathmandu where most live now. Of course it's much easier to deal with problem people in a city with police and journalists than it is an isolated mountain valley or the side of Everest

Clearly the Sherpas who seemed intent on bodily harm were bad apples, and many were probably coerced into participating, so the question is, what about the majority? Can a few bad apples really dictate to 90-95 other men? I'm still betting the majority wanted to scare the western climbers and probably chase them off the mountain until the ropes were fixed and things got out of hand.

Jennie

Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
May 5, 2013 - 06:51pm PT
Some accounts claim the violence at Camp 2 commenced when a westerner, not affiliated with Simone, lunged and entangled with one of the advancing Sherpa. Simone is said to have summoned the Sherpas to a dialogue and the clutching of the Sherpa by this particular individual was the "ignition point" in the fracas.



Also I wanted to comment on the minimization of the Lhotse Face difficulty. While not formidable to world class ice climbers and mountaineers, it's still a problematic and dangerous obstacle to success. Depending on whose list you read, seven to twelve climbers have been killed on this slope...beginning with Dorje Mingma of the Swiss 1952 expedition. The angle rises from 45 to 60 degrees and falling ice and avalanches are portentous menace. And climbers walking outside their tents at Camp 3 have slipped and fallen the entire slope to the bergshrund

...this isn't the serene slog between Paradise and Camp Muir
Amber.C

climber
May 5, 2013 - 07:39pm PT
Things much worse than getting punched happen up there.
Altitude makes you do funny things, and its different every time.
Like i said before its a pity the elite team was even on the yak route,
even if they pulled off an "alpine style" ascent, theres just too many
people around right now for it to be fair.(that means you cant touch any
fixed ropes or get any help from the crowds all around you.
Of course getting down is different, without o2 im sure youll
grab a cord going down the Hillary step!)

If you are that elite what the fruk are you doing there of all places!
They should be using there sponsorship dollars to go off piste!
and if theres not enough of an explorer in them to go off piste,
Perhaps a post-monsoon ascent of the south yak would be easier
in terms of crowding
and also being more fair to the alpine style.
By off piste i mean any route but the two yak routes where the guests go.
Perhaps the elite were acclimating for the sw face?

Not to quibble, Stewart, but I was under the impression that the three were either acclimatizing or their route broke off the yak route higher up. Camp 2 (and even Camp 3) is a long way below the summit.

But otherwise I don't see what difference it makes that they are elite. They have the same right to be there based on their permit, so their "eliteness" strikes me as irrelevant.
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