Explosions at finish line of Boston Marathon!

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Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 10:33am PT
Coz,, Your quite correct in that the mass murderers SHOULD fall into their own category. And ive said that also.. Ive suggested that we create ONE new law that states: Any one involved with mass murder/mayhem should NOT be given due process as it is now, but rather a very REDUCED process. When we KNOW beyond a doubt - as in the Aurora shooters identification, it makes NO moral or ethical sense to me to delay the swift had o justice. When justice is used as an excuse to circumnavigate any common sense- it falls flat of the intent, purpose and effectiveness.

And what irked me about Sandy hook aside from the horrific killing of children for SURE, was the immediate USING of those dead kids in a political effort against gun owners in general that had ZERO to do with Sandy Hook.

That to me was absolutely pathetic.
jghedge

climber
May 1, 2013 - 10:37am PT
"When justice is used as an excuse to circumnavigate any common sense- it falls flat of the intent, purpose and effectiveness."

Incoherent gibberish.
coz

Gym climber
Belmont
May 1, 2013 - 11:28am PT
Joe,

Another insult, dude it's all you got.

Ron, good point, perhaps treating mass shooters as terrorist and sending them to Gitmo, or placing them in the general population at Folsom would be an effective tool.

Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 11:38am PT
Indeed Coz,, when you go into a grade school to kill innocent children no matter the "reasons" , youve crossed the line of no return. Just like the Boston perps.. Makes me sick to think my tax dimes are going to one of three lawyers defending that little pos sonof a BITCH. It Irks me that our immigration policies and welfare were raising these two loosers and giving them higher educations while they drove around in their beamer hating the very system that gave it all to them..

So yes,, act as a cowardly terrorist and you should have a cell at the gitmo starvation fest 2013. Until, your hanged by the neck twisting in the wind. You can study sick minds till the end of time and all youll find is a very sick mind. Crap on the three years of endless debate and appeals - crap on the notoriety of their damm names too. Tiss why i always refer to them as perp A or B..;-)

The whole NDAA 2013 was about this very thing, including CITIZENS as evidenced by the droning of the 16 yr old citizen in the ME. While i DONT agree with all the language and far reaching of that bill, i do agree that those posing as terrorists should not be given rights under habeas corpus.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 1, 2013 - 11:49am PT
They detained the WRONG GUY in the bombing investigation. Was he deserving of due process? They arrested the wrong guy in the ricin attack. Despite being an Elvis impersonator in Mississippi, was he deserving of due process? Death row inmates released from prison because they were proven innocent. Is due process suspended because of a conviction?

What IS this due process, anyway.... do you know from whence it came?

The very same government you think is trying to take your guns will be in charge of determining who is deserving of due process and who is not. That constitutional guarantee is promised by the same document that tries to protect your gun rights.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 11:53am PT
Yep, Dingus,, but the law has been made,, and passed by the guy you helped vote in,, not me.. So now that they have this law, they use it to drone a sixteen yr old in the ME who is a citizen who hasnt bombed anyone yet, but they will buy three lawyers for a terrorist here who has bombed people.?? And of course, they need to be sure. Like the Aurora shooter, caught in the act. Like the boston wads one of whom has already confessed.

Cut and dried,, feed em to Woo's hogs...
mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
May 1, 2013 - 11:56am PT
Central Park Five... all coerced into confessing... all young minorities... all convicted and incarcerated... all innocent of the crime in question...
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 1, 2013 - 11:57am PT
Hmm. M'kay if that's how you feel, go with it.

DMT
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2013 - 11:58am PT
As stated earlier, right wingers are too scared and fearful to be Real Americans. They are ready to jettison the Constitution at the drop of a hat.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 11:58am PT
you short term memory victims need to be reminded,, i guess.. Ive said MANY times in this very thread the confusion i myself have over this very issue.

I even mentioned it above in a post. So no,, the point has already been discussed at length.

I DO NOT agree with ALL the NDAA language, as ive stated about ten times here. The parts i DONT agree with are the " detain for ANY reason the govt deems" . If youve not reviewed those laws, then you need to. Ill bet youll agree with me.

But when it comes to the "WAR" against al-kay-duh, radical islam as defined by our govt, how does one justify treating combatants like citizens?



Have we given "trails" to all the other GITMO residents?? Noooo..

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 1, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
Have we given "trails" to all the other GITMO residents?? Noooo..


of course not, they were arrested on foreign soil and they are not US citizens

by your question, I take it Ron that you believe they should all be given trials now?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 1, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
My advice for you (and plenty of others) is to stop reading the paper and newswires, and don't watch the evening news on the telly - ever. You will be far happier and much less fearful when you go to Scolaris.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 12:08pm PT
While the head in the sand routine in certainly more calming, im not sure of the over all practicality.;-) But who is fearul going to Scolaris,, which by the way doesnt exist round here anymore..

And Norton,, nooo, what i mean is,, perp B should have a nice cozy apartment at the gitmo bead and breakfast as well.
jghedge

climber
May 1, 2013 - 12:22pm PT
"Ive said MANY times in this very thread the confusion i myself have over this very issue. "

Hahahaha

We get that


"Have we given "trails" to all the other GITMO residents?? Noooo.."

They're essentially unprosecutable, because they were tortured

The judge would have no choice but to set them free

That's the main reason they're there, plus no other country wants them
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 1, 2013 - 12:31pm PT
My advice for you (and plenty of others) is to stop reading the paper and newswires, and don't watch the evening news on the telly - ever. You will be far happier and much less fearful when you go to Scolaris.

DMT
+1
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 1, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Ron, I agree that the 16 year old in Yemen shouldn't have been killed.

I also agree that Tsarnayev, an American citizen arrested in the USA deserves a trial.

McVeigh got one. Terry Nichols got one. Kaczyinski got one. Eric Rudolph got one. Robert Chambliss got one. Richard Reid got one. Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab got one. David Harlow got one. Chevie Kehoe and Danny Lee got one. Sirhan Sirhan got one. James Earl Ray got one. Omar Abdel Rahman got one.

Should I continue?




On Friday morning in downtown Manhattan, Osama bin Laden’s son-in-law appeared in a federal courtroom to be charged with conspiring to kill Americans. In a sober, orderly proceeding that lasted a total of 17 minutes, Judge Lewis Kaplan explained to Suleiman Abu Ghaith his rights, appointed his defense lawyers, read the charges against him, recorded his plea of “not guilty,” ordered the prisoner’s continued detention and announced that he would set a trial date for the case in 30 days.

Prosecutors have already turned over the bulk of their unclassified evidence against the defendant. Abu Ghaith, who was transferred to New York from Jordan on March 3, is reportedly cooperating with federal authorities and providing important information about al Qaeda.

It was, in others words, an ordinary, orderly federal court arraignment in an international terrorism case. Almost 500 such defendants have been convicted in U.S. federal courts on U.S. soil since the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 1, 2013 - 12:50pm PT
Ron,

If someone is allowed to pick and choose who gets due process and who gets minimal process, the system becomes open (or more open) to corruption and eventually you and I will end up with that same minimal process. Everyone musty get it as a matter of policy or the protections afforded us by that process are gone.

Plus, I was not at any of the incidents mentioned where there was 100% sureness that the perpetrator was known. I can either rely on the system to make sure that the wrong person is not just thrown in a hole or I can rely on people to ensure that. Again, people are corrupt and cannot be trusted so the system is in place to try to avoid that corruption. At least corruption is harder with a system that treats everyone equally, or tries to.

There are too many extremists who say that they are on the side of law and order but would jump at the chance to bypass the law and just lynch someone accused of a heinous crime. As soon as they get emotional about it, the idea of a trial and even Miranda rights will get thrown out the window. Why read a guy his rights if he is obviously the criminal? Why not just kill the guy on site? Arrests are a waste of my money, right?

A system where there is a way to expedite a trial and give less defense to some than to others is a system that will fail more miserably than anything we have now. We are a people, no a species, of prejudice and that prejudice will take over if we have a system that caters to people who want to expedite things just because they are a bit more pissed of than normal.

Really, I would agree with the idea of expediting justice but I just can't put my trust in anyone to make the right decision when the time comes to actually decide a case.

Dave
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Survival,, YOU of all here should know about "going to WAR", or a "WAR" on terroism.. That is much the reason for the new laws under the NDAA. That is also the reason we drone those in other countries.
So if we are engaged in a "WAR" against radical islam, and the Boston perps admitted defending islam,, this falls directly into the catagory of gitmo and military tribunals. Unless,,,, war isnt really war anymore.

Im NOT for throwing away habeas corpus by ANY STRETCH. But, by definiton we are at WAR,, just ask those that have recently returned from spots like Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.



edit: Dave you bring up good points. But how many people id the Aurora shooter? OBVIOUS to a blind man is obvious no? Im not talking the death of rights or due process.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 1, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
There are too many extremists who say that they are on the side of law and order but would jump at the chance to bypass the law and just lynch someone accused of a heinous crime.

That is exactly the voice Ron is representing, villagers with torches.

You know... the gold ole days.


DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 1, 2013 - 12:55pm PT
But, by definiton we are at WAR,

You're not at war.

By definition.

DMT
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