Explosions at finish line of Boston Marathon!

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Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
you short term memory victims need to be reminded,, i guess.. Ive said MANY times in this very thread the confusion i myself have over this very issue.

I even mentioned it above in a post. So no,, the point has already been discussed at length.

I DO NOT agree with ALL the NDAA language, as ive stated about ten times here. The parts i DONT agree with are the " detain for ANY reason the govt deems" . If youve not reviewed those laws, then you need to. Ill bet youll agree with me.

But when it comes to the "WAR" against al-kay-duh, radical islam as defined by our govt, how does one justify treating combatants like citizens?



Have we given "trails" to all the other GITMO residents?? Noooo..

Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 1, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
Have we given "trails" to all the other GITMO residents?? Noooo..


of course not, they were arrested on foreign soil and they are not US citizens

by your question, I take it Ron that you believe they should all be given trials now?
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 1, 2013 - 03:03pm PT
My advice for you (and plenty of others) is to stop reading the paper and newswires, and don't watch the evening news on the telly - ever. You will be far happier and much less fearful when you go to Scolaris.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 03:08pm PT
While the head in the sand routine in certainly more calming, im not sure of the over all practicality.;-) But who is fearul going to Scolaris,, which by the way doesnt exist round here anymore..

And Norton,, nooo, what i mean is,, perp B should have a nice cozy apartment at the gitmo bead and breakfast as well.
michaeld

Sport climber
Sacramento
May 1, 2013 - 03:31pm PT
My advice for you (and plenty of others) is to stop reading the paper and newswires, and don't watch the evening news on the telly - ever. You will be far happier and much less fearful when you go to Scolaris.

DMT
+1
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 1, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Ron, I agree that the 16 year old in Yemen shouldn't have been killed.

I also agree that Tsarnayev, an American citizen arrested in the USA deserves a trial.

McVeigh got one. Terry Nichols got one. Kaczyinski got one. Eric Rudolph got one. Robert Chambliss got one. Richard Reid got one. Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab got one. David Harlow got one. Chevie Kehoe and Danny Lee got one. Sirhan Sirhan got one. James Earl Ray got one. Omar Abdel Rahman got one.

Should I continue?




On Friday morning in downtown Manhattan, Osama bin Laden’s son-in-law appeared in a federal courtroom to be charged with conspiring to kill Americans. In a sober, orderly proceeding that lasted a total of 17 minutes, Judge Lewis Kaplan explained to Suleiman Abu Ghaith his rights, appointed his defense lawyers, read the charges against him, recorded his plea of “not guilty,” ordered the prisoner’s continued detention and announced that he would set a trial date for the case in 30 days.

Prosecutors have already turned over the bulk of their unclassified evidence against the defendant. Abu Ghaith, who was transferred to New York from Jordan on March 3, is reportedly cooperating with federal authorities and providing important information about al Qaeda.

It was, in others words, an ordinary, orderly federal court arraignment in an international terrorism case. Almost 500 such defendants have been convicted in U.S. federal courts on U.S. soil since the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
May 1, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
Ron,

If someone is allowed to pick and choose who gets due process and who gets minimal process, the system becomes open (or more open) to corruption and eventually you and I will end up with that same minimal process. Everyone musty get it as a matter of policy or the protections afforded us by that process are gone.

Plus, I was not at any of the incidents mentioned where there was 100% sureness that the perpetrator was known. I can either rely on the system to make sure that the wrong person is not just thrown in a hole or I can rely on people to ensure that. Again, people are corrupt and cannot be trusted so the system is in place to try to avoid that corruption. At least corruption is harder with a system that treats everyone equally, or tries to.

There are too many extremists who say that they are on the side of law and order but would jump at the chance to bypass the law and just lynch someone accused of a heinous crime. As soon as they get emotional about it, the idea of a trial and even Miranda rights will get thrown out the window. Why read a guy his rights if he is obviously the criminal? Why not just kill the guy on site? Arrests are a waste of my money, right?

A system where there is a way to expedite a trial and give less defense to some than to others is a system that will fail more miserably than anything we have now. We are a people, no a species, of prejudice and that prejudice will take over if we have a system that caters to people who want to expedite things just because they are a bit more pissed of than normal.

Really, I would agree with the idea of expediting justice but I just can't put my trust in anyone to make the right decision when the time comes to actually decide a case.

Dave
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
Survival,, YOU of all here should know about "going to WAR", or a "WAR" on terroism.. That is much the reason for the new laws under the NDAA. That is also the reason we drone those in other countries.
So if we are engaged in a "WAR" against radical islam, and the Boston perps admitted defending islam,, this falls directly into the catagory of gitmo and military tribunals. Unless,,,, war isnt really war anymore.

Im NOT for throwing away habeas corpus by ANY STRETCH. But, by definiton we are at WAR,, just ask those that have recently returned from spots like Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere.



edit: Dave you bring up good points. But how many people id the Aurora shooter? OBVIOUS to a blind man is obvious no? Im not talking the death of rights or due process.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 1, 2013 - 03:54pm PT
There are too many extremists who say that they are on the side of law and order but would jump at the chance to bypass the law and just lynch someone accused of a heinous crime.

That is exactly the voice Ron is representing, villagers with torches.

You know... the gold ole days.


DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
May 1, 2013 - 03:55pm PT
But, by definiton we are at WAR,

You're not at war.

By definition.

DMT
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 04:06pm PT
Obama says we are at WAR.. You may want to consult him..

How many billions of dollars go into clandestine ops here every year now??

We will never know actually,, because they are clandestine. But theres at least fifty sections on the NDAA funding it all.

Fighting, bombings and genocides are now happening around the globe, much by the same we are at "WAR" with. And a guarantee we havent seen the last of attacks in a hood near you by the same enemies we are at "WAR" with.
They just might be that nice muslim neighbor youve known for ten years, that shocks you completely because of his nice warm nature.

survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
May 1, 2013 - 04:08pm PT
They just might be that nice muslim neighbor youve known for ten years, that shocks you completely because of his nice warm nature.

What should we do to our nice warm Muslim neighbors, just sit around and WAIT for them to attack us?!!
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 1, 2013 - 04:11pm PT
There seems to be confusion over the death of a 16 year old who was born in Denver.

All reports state that the boy was NOT the "target" of the drone attack which killed numerous known al-kay-duh terrorists.

The boy HAPPENED to be with the group.

Abdulrahman al-Awlaki
Anwar Al-Awlaki and Egyptian-born Gihan Mohsen Baker had an American son, born on September 13, 1995, in Denver, named Abdulrahman Anwar Al-Awlaki.[246] Abdulrahman al-Awlaki was killed at the age of 16 in an American drone strike on Friday, October 14, 2011, in Yemen, along with alleged al-Qaeda members.[247] Nine other people were killed in the same CIA-led attack. Among the dead was a 17-year-old cousin of Abdulrahman.[


so Ron, HOW exactly is his death somehow a "failure" of the drone program any more than the unintended deaths of MANY civilians who were are continue to be killed in US drone attacks on al-kay-duhs?

so fuking what if he was "born" in Denver, his al-kay-duh father got him out of the USA as a young child and raised him in Yemen

why is his death SUCH a huge big ass deal to you?
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 04:13pm PT
Survival,,Darn GUD question isnt it?

"he was so nice, quiet,, never a problem with anyone" has been UNIVERSALLY stated in just about EVERY terrorist found here. And im speaking strictly to the jihaderzz..


Its like my buddies say about Nam.. "Ya never knew which gook was which,, mannn, one day theyd be cool and the next they all be cong."



edit: Norton,, ive answered that THOROUGHLY here. scroll doood..
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
May 1, 2013 - 04:51pm PT
edit: Norton,, ive answered that THOROUGHLY here. scroll doood..


no, what you have done is constantly criticize your own governments Defense Authorization Act and your big criticism seems to be your personal horror and indignation over the is 16 year old killed in a drone attack.

This ONE aspect of the NDAA is sure a big deal to you, Ron

you keep bringing it up

yet, you never laid out why this particular 16 year old is so special to you, especially so because he was not the target of the drone attack, just happened to be with the group

I am guessing that your "outrage" over this incident is what? ...because you personally think that our intelligence people should NOT have requested that the NDAA contain the authorization that yes we can and will kill anyone, US citizen or not, on US soil or not, IF we have damn good reason to believe that they are participating or planning attacks against America

you damn right that should be in the NDAA, because it does not matter a bit, not even a little, if someone is born in the USA or not, or if is carrying out his terrorist crap IN the USA or not,

ALL Americans, including YOU, ought to support our people when they want every possible authorization to kill the same radical Islamists you rail against
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Topic Author's Reply - May 1, 2013 - 04:57pm PT
gee Norton,, Obama didnt ask me about drones.. Did he ask you?



You keep CORNFUSING normal citizens with jihadists. As far as any that we are engaged in a "WAR" against, they are enemy combatants. Thats why we sen uniformed military personnel thousands of miles from home to shoot weapons of all manner at others.



couchmaster

climber
pdx
May 1, 2013 - 06:03pm PT
Well Norton, the way President Obama and the administration have been able to get the number of innocents lower is to change the way that they classify folks. They now call any 16-80 year old male killed in a drone strike an insurgent.

That the President can and is killing Americans, and in a couple of cases unarmed ones, for just sh#t talking, should shock anyone who believes that the constitutional form of government is good and to be followed. Without the rule of law, what do you wind up with?

This lack of due process in violation of the law via announced legal sophistry, and avoidance of due process, is very very disturbing.
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
May 1, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
They now call any 16-80 year old male killed in a drone strike an insurgent.

The oldest trick in the book. When the Palestinians blow up a bus load of Israeli kids, the Palestinians are called terrorists. When Israelis blow up a bus load of Palestinian kids, the Israelis are called commandos.
WBraun

climber
May 1, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
killing terrorists

The only terrorist here is Norton the media lap dog who eats every media story spoon fed to his drug addled pea brain.

At least couchmaster can think for himself instead of these stupid media spoon fed tools like Norton.

Couchmaster don't pay any attention to this stupid fool.

Norton you are an embarrassment to America .......
TradEddie

Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
May 1, 2013 - 09:57pm PT
As a native-born Irishman, I have to point out the terrible irony of everybody in Boston trying to figure out where in Russia these two went for training, when generations of Irish terrorists flew into Logan airport to openly train on AR's and AK's at New England shooting camps.

Or the millions of dollars raised in Boston to buy semtex from Ghadaffi, or the seven tons of guns and ammo that sailed out of Boston harbor on the fishing boat Valhalla, or the boatloads more that were never intercepted?

TE

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