fixed pitons are trad and rad?

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mt10910

climber
Topic Author's Original Post - Apr 5, 2013 - 09:29am PT
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/hazel-findlay-sends-sea-cliff-testpiece

There seems to be a general trend in climbing culture to call ascents of
routes with fixed and/or preplaced gear that aren't bolts as a traditional way to climb.

Sport climbing by any other name is still sport climbing. Inefficient/unsafe sport climbing is problematic-think Thailand rotten bolts, but why if its a fixed crappy pin or a fixed crappy bolt should matter is beyond me.

Don't get me wrong,
climbing 513c while placing pins for protection, that would be something.

-of note Mass spec is baking out for the weekend at 300 C, fingers crossed,
no more digressions and internet emissions from me for a bit
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Apr 5, 2013 - 09:31am PT
Go repeat that route and get back to me.
mt10910

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2013 - 09:46am PT
???

Get back to you and let ya know if it was a sporty sport climb? Or a traditional ground up, gear placed on lead, lead and the article had poor reporting?

I don't think your debating the climb was hard and scary are you? Of course climbing on rotten bolts and insecure fixed gear is a mind bender. You know that don't you?

But if we are going to use bs terms like "trad" and "sport" why should we mix the bs?

I'm not a personal fan of the term trad. Makes me feel like an older Jew than I am.
briham89

Big Wall climber
san jose, ca
Apr 5, 2013 - 09:51am PT
Definitely hard and impressive, but if we are "categorizing" things I agree, that's not a trad climb.
j-tree

Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
Apr 5, 2013 - 09:55am PT
Why do we care about categories again?

Is it so that we can elevate one style of climbing over another?
Seems like a douchy intent.

Is it so that we can .... that's all I have.
Douchy.
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:15am PT
fixed and/or preplaced gear that aren't bolts as a traditional way to climb

see Separate Reality et al
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:20am PT
I don't see a pic on that page. How the hell does anyone know whether this is well protected and just merely difficult, or sparsely protected with questionable gear and still difficult?


ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:23am PT
It seems if one must categorize between sport and trad then that route is certainly trad.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 5, 2013 - 10:26am PT
Over the last 10 years the term trad has morphed. The transitional term was: "gear routes". Basically anything with gear is trad and anything goes prior to red point. (Yes, the term red point and related tactics would have divided sport from trad in the past). Thus: "hard trad" and the on-site ground up bit seems to have been tossed out of the definition, yet that mode is still valued as a subset of trad. Essentially the definition of "trad" has softened/broadened quite a lot.

I don't have an opinion, it's just an observation.
Rhodo-Router

Gym climber
sawatch choss
Apr 5, 2013 - 12:12pm PT
Go take a dump Jeff.
mt10910

climber
Topic Author's Reply - Apr 5, 2013 - 12:18pm PT
I just did
now its on you

Is that considered "turd" style?

sheesh a person can't have a civil conversation around here without folks acting like preschoolers.

back to the subject in hand

So the distinction between traditional climbing and sport climbing is really if there are bolts or not? How about a ring piton? That would be traditional even though there maybe a drilled hole?

For me putting up routes with poor protection was never out of some sort of ethical basis, but simply out of being "traditionally" to poor to leave protection behind permanently. carry on pooh slinging or what have you
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 5, 2013 - 12:54pm PT
Yes, it sort of has devolved into whether or not bolts are present, leaving out most style issues except for the final ascent. This of course doesn't account for traditional bolted slab climbs put up from the ground with natural runouts. Lots of modern climbers don't even know what to do with those types of climbs as a distinction, or a category. But to you and I, they are obviously trad climbs.

And specifically to your point, fixed pitons are now almost vestigial functions and typically relate to trad climbing for that reason. A piton still uses a natural weakness, so, for the sake of argument they lean toward either aid or trad. To see that argument get even further drawnout see: Pin Bolt.

If a hole is drilled and filled with a piton it's essentially a bolt.
gonzo chemist

climber
Fort Collins, CO
Apr 5, 2013 - 02:37pm PT
This is actually an interesting discussion. When I started climbing (about 10 years ago--so I guess I'm still a youngster around here), I learned that "trad" routes were routes that were climbed and protected from the ground up. Bolts placed on lead, etc. This was the tradtional way to climb. However pre-inspection or pre-placing any gear negated the definition of "traditional."

You could have "trad" routes that were climbed in a "non-trad" style. This seems to be the case I think for much of the UK climbing. The pro is generally terrible or sparse and the consequences for failure were so great that pre-inspection, top-roping and pre-placing gear is generally considered OK. And hence falls into the category of traditional (according to British history).

Tarbuster is definitely right though about newer climbers occasionally being confused. I've had many discussions with people where I explained that just because a route has bolts, doesn't mean its a "sport route." Its all dependent on the manner in which it was climbed.

Another interesting thing to think about with respect to this 5.13c route is the nature of pins that rapidly deteriorate. Hazel Findlay reported that some of the pins broke upon removal, necessitating the placement of pins in new spots. Well this begs the question, what about in another couple years when someone else decides they want to do this route? Will they have to place MORE pins b/c Findlay's are now garbage? At what point is a stainless steel bolt the best choice?
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 5, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
You could have "trad" routes that were climbed in a "non-trad" style. This seems to be the case I think for much of the UK climbing. The pro is generally terrible or sparse and the consequences for failure were so great that pre-inspection, top-roping and pre-placing gear is generally considered OK. And hence falls into the category of traditional (according to British history).

And by my observation much the same has happened here: witness a majority of the hard climbing on El Capitan, whether by first free ascent or repeat, lots of pre-inspection and working from the top. Also in Eldorado Canyon, lots of "hard trad" is pre-rehearsed and inspected. I first heard this about 10 years ago from a 20 something climber in Boulder: "I'm getting into hard trad in Eldo". He didn't mean on-site performance. They consider head pointing trad.

Gear has simply been conflated with trad. Think about it: trad isn't even the norm anymore in many places. Young people often graduate from gyms to sport climbing and then into "hard trad" and they simply take their tactics with them. I think that's why the definition, or at the least usage, of the term trad has changed.

It's not an absolute; usage changes over time and this seems to be the trend, albeit probably at the higher levels.
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:02pm PT
I like the term gear climbing.


Pegs placed on rappel before TRing a route to death & head pointing with pre hung draws? Bad ass climb for sure too bad it has to be labeled as a certain style.

I could care less what its called really, I mean a "tagger" just died & North Korea is about to attack Texas, lets get our priorities straight people.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
As far as I am concerned Traditional climbing involves hammers, pitons,bolts, shoulder stands, direct aid, iceaxes, crampons,sausage, bread, cheese and anything that enables upward progress in a ground up ascent. Naturaly The white spider was my first climbing book;) That hippy crunchy version of trad with all the stupid rules and folks with inflated opinions of their STYLE of climbing being better than anyone elses to the point of bolt wars and endless bla bla bla about how we did it in the seventys. That ain't trad climbing. It's just annoying.
I got to do a few real trad climbs this winter:) Fun stuff!
More P2 madness. <br/>
Photo by Isa Oehry
More P2 madness.
Photo by Isa Oehry
Credit: tradmanclimbs
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
As far as I am concerned Traditional climbing involves hammers, pitons,bolts, shoulder stands, direct aid, iceaxes, crampons


Then says:

folks with inflated opinions of their STYLE of climbing being better than anyone elses to the point of bolt wars and endless bla bla bla about how we did it in the seventys. That ain't trad climbing. It's just annoying.

Hahaha you did exactly what annoys you tradman, good one! Lol

Cool pic tho!
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
My style is not better I have no style. just saying that some wanker who throws a hissy fit over someone not climbing by his list of stupid 1970 and 1980s rules and calls themself a trad climber should be aware that folks were climbing some pretty rad stuff in the 1930s and did not have to worry about pulling the rope every time they weighted it.... So who is more traditional? The climber grabbing gear, pounding pins and doing whatever it takes to get from the bottom to the top or the climbers that have a bunch of strict rules and would rather pull the rope and go home than get to the top?
RyanD

climber
Squamish
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:41pm PT
That's an interesting point tradman, it seems golden era trad climbers do have a stricter ethical code that is still valued today & preserved by many, but does that make them more traditional than those that were there before them?? In the climbers sense of the word it appears the definition has shifted over time.

tradition[ truh-dish-uhn ]
noun
1. the handing down of statements, beliefs, legends, customs, information, etc., from generation to generation, especially by word of mouth or by practice: a story that has come down to us by popular tradition.
2. something that is handed down: the traditions of the Eskimos.
3. a long-established or inherited way of thinking or acting: The rebellious students wanted to break with tradition.
Tarbuster

climber
right here, right now
Apr 5, 2013 - 06:42pm PT
Damn straight MadTrad!
Now pass them sausage, breads, & cheeses!
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