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L
climber
California dreamin' on the farside of the world..
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Jan 16, 2014 - 01:57pm PT
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Love those old postcards, Marlow. And Jon's site is amazing!
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 17, 2014 - 02:30am PT
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In regards to the alps I pointed out on a different thread...
"This could just be me, but has alpinism in the alps been "dumbed down". Between the cable cars, ease of access and the fact most of the trade routes are done in a day. The alps has turned into more of an "alpine playground" then anything else. The sense of mystery, that defined early alpinism has been lost, replaced by a far more "sportified" alternative."
With regards to Jon Griffith... Your photography is very beautiful... but...
If you can link up the Verte, Les Droites, and Les Courtes in a day you need to find harder things to climb. Lots of Aid lines throughout the alps remain neither free climbed, or climbing in winter... Pick your poison...
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Jan 17, 2014 - 02:36am PT
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... or you could spend days thrashing through the devils club and alder to get to the Alpine zone and consider yourself cool...
Different place, different game
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 17, 2014 - 03:01am PT
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... or you could spend days thrashing through the devils club and alder to get to the Alpine zone and consider yourself cool...
Different place, different game
Explain?
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Michael Fascinan
climber
Chamonix, france
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Jan 17, 2014 - 02:34pm PT
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With regards to Jon Griffith... Your photography is very beautiful... but...
If you can link up the Verte, Les Droites, and Les Courtes in a day you need to find harder things to climb. Lots of Aid lines throughout the alps remain neither free climbed, or climbing in winter... Pick your poison...
Harder is not more....
For most enchainments are about volume........
Harder isn't the yardstick-
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 17, 2014 - 04:19pm PT
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On another thread Donini eloquently stated with regards to the alps...
Athleticisim has trumped exploration and stop watches now measure accomplishments. Remarkable things are being done but in a sanitized situation without the true adventure of exploration.
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steve shea
climber
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Jan 17, 2014 - 04:35pm PT
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Dumbed down? How? The fact that the access is easy makes it the the worlds best place to hone your skills and move on to more remote ranges, or not. The telepheriques and railroads have been there for a long time . Nothing new there. I have been fortunate and climbed in some remote settings around the world. I can say looking back the best quality Alpine climbing I've had in is in the Massif du Mt Blanc. Outstanding rock, unique combination of atmoshperic conditions that create truly plastic ice and 80 degree neve. The amount of vertical feet climbed per dollars spent is unmatched. This in part due to access. But once your up there, on the hill, the climbing is the same as anywhere.
In my time there knew climbers that did the whole approach. I once went up to the Jorrasses by walking up to the Montenvers and on up the Mer. But what is the point? You can end up just as dead with access or not. The mystery you speak of was long gone before I got there in the mid 70's. but you could have fooled me! It was a serious place to be and I learned more there than anywhere because the spirit of alpinism that is everpresent.
I recall a trip to one mt in Tibet. Unclimbed. 7200m. Three months of screwing around for about 10 days climbing. Lots of mystery and discovery but not much climbing. Many thousands of dollars spent. Same kind of thing in Alaska and other trips. I used to be able to live for months in Cham for a mere pittance. And BTW there is more to the Alps than France. Plenty of approaches and relatively remote areas if you want.
I do not see it dumbed down. More civilized? yes. But pretty much the same as it has always been in my lifetime. There were Eiger watchers at the Kleine Schedegg in the 30's!
Exploration is not and has never been a prerequisite for a definition of Alpinism. Unless you only do first ascents. As far as stopwatches go? Come on man? Are you serious? faster and bivouac free ascents have been recorded for years all over the planet. Steck recently in Nepal. I saw one first hand on the North Side of Everest in '86. Loretan up and down the Hornbein in 24 hrs or so. I have explored plenty in my climbing career. I would rather climb actually. I'm not a Patagonian or Alaskan snob. I'll climb anywhere. If exploration is part of your recipe for alpinism, I'd suggest Tibet for one, but the you are back to big budgets.
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 17, 2014 - 04:58pm PT
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Ok... I might have used the wrong wording... Rather then "dumbed down" I'll use the phrase "sanitized". Also rather then "the alps" I'll refer to it as "chamonix"...
As far as stopwatches go? Come on man? Are you serious? faster and bivouac free ascents have been recorded for years all over the planet.
and to clarify I'm referring to the di-k measuring contest speed climbing in the chamonix/alps has disended into in recent years. If you are going light and fast to minimize exposure to objective danger or to get to the top in the quickest efficient manner, all power to you. If you are speed climbing for the record or for publicity you are likely doing it for the wrong reasons.
and to some to be fair I agree with much of what you are saying... Chamonix is likely the best bang for your buck climbing destination in the world. It does have some of the best world class climbing out there... It makes a great training ground for the worlds top alpinists... But don't claim it is the end all of alpine climbing.
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steve shea
climber
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Jan 17, 2014 - 05:16pm PT
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Sanitized, civilized. What's the difference? Only how you get there. To assume you will be helo rescued before tragedy is foolish. I don't think I ever knew any climbers in Cham who would say"I'm going to do such and such route, cause I know if I get stretched I can get winched off with an arm signal" Are you kidding me?
I know some places that need to be "sanitized". Literally. Everest Base Camp, certain camps in Alaska and probably Patagonia as well. Popularity can kill a good thing.
The exploration one enjoys in whatever aspect of climbing one chooses, is exploration of self. The passage.
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bigbird
climber
WA
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Jan 17, 2014 - 05:45pm PT
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Popularity can kill a good thing.
The exploration one enjoys in whatever aspect of climbing one chooses, is exploration of self. The passage.
Fair enough we agree on something.. Personally I prefer to climbing in places without crowds... Remoteness is part of the fun for me... and to be fair it is possible to have an climbing trip in a remote location on a budget. You just have have to have lots of time on your hands. An example of this would be climbing Mt. Waddington Munday style from the ocean.. Having traversed the range on foot several years ago, it is not as easy as it looks...
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jan 22, 2014 - 02:17pm PT
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Climbing in the Chamonix area: The Mt. Blanc massif. Article by Andre Contamine in Mountain 43, 1975.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jan 22, 2014 - 02:24pm PT
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Mt Blanc massif continues...
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steve shea
climber
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Jan 22, 2014 - 04:19pm PT
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Marlow thanks for posting that article. I remember reading it multiple times, dreaming of the day I might see if I measure up in the Massif.
I had many long days there. Some memorable for failure and epics others for success and new or new variant routes. One of my most memorable was a new line on the Grand Pilier d'Angle in '78. With Joel Coqueniot, a Chamonix guide. I met him through JM Boivin and Georges Bettembourg.
It starts on the Ceccinel/Nomine goes up a few pitches then branches off left, to the left of the Fowler finish and the right of the Bonnati/Gobi. Steep mixed and ice with a very steep ice finish and on to the upper snow field then up the Peuterey Ridge to the Italian and French summits. We continued on down to the Plan and waited for the first tele the next morning. We had perfect weather and ice condition. The whole time we were on the route we were entertained by very active avalanche conditions on the Brenva Face. Also huge serac collapse to our right on the Gabbarou/Boivin route. It swept over part of the C/N which was our original goal til we saw the line we ended up doing. Best day in the Massif.
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Jan 22, 2014 - 04:49pm PT
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Steve
Then your route can be seen, even if it's not drawn, in this article by Michel Piola in Mont Blanc 2:
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steve shea
climber
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Jan 22, 2014 - 06:32pm PT
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Yes. If you continue straight up rather then taking the big traverse right on the Ceccinel/Nominee, you can see the couloir narrowing and becoming very steep. Then several hundred meters from its end it branches. The Fowler finish the right hand branch, ours is the left hand. The last pitch was vertical ice for a good part of the ropelength. We used a 300' 9 mil. It exited on mixed and over the top of the B/G and others. There was more snow than in your photo at the time. Early July,'78.
We actually wasted a lot of time trying to free the first bit on the Cecchinel/Nominee. We had some success and eliminated some but not all of the aid. So when we got up to the traverse it looked faster to go up rather than right. We did not know if it was climbed before til we got back to Cham. Boivin informed us. Btw his and Gabbarou's route is to the right of the C/M and up through the hanging serac band. That is the area that collapsed to our right and went over the route and of course the Brenva Face further right. Think it was mostly TD except for the finish which was ED and then the A1 start. Nice photo.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jan 22, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
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Steve,
It sounds like you have done most of the routes that I WISHED I had done.
One of our biggest troubles was finding anything that remotely resembled a topo of a route. Also, the grades were different. I think that the Fissure Brown was rated TD, and other, easier, but more serious routes were rated ED.
We ended up doing most of the classics. None of the Argentiere ice routes were in that summer except the Triolet. We ended up doing the Lachenal direct finish (I think that was the route name) that went up steep ice to the left of that big serac.
We couldn't afford huts, so we would hike all the way up from town and then bivy out on the glacier until midnight to start. Beneath the Triolet there was a bunch of truck and bigger sized ice chunks that had fallen off of that spooky serac, and ran quite a ways out in front of the route. There was one part where the ice was less than 2 inches thick, so we just soloed that part. Man, that was a hard day's work.
It was great fun, but the objective hazards were all too obvious. We would see the SAR choppers landing across the river from Snell's daily. Once I was up killing a few hours at the Charpoua Hut (I knew the hutkeeper) and we watched three different rescues going on from that vantage point.
They can bolt it all they want. They still can't stop that grapefruit sized rock which misses your brain by 6 inches. We learned to go fast, put in minimal pro, and generally not dick around. It was a big learning experience which I carried on to my rock climbing when I got home. If I had a partner who wanted to dick around and take pictures, I would get nervous.
I have a great story of stumbling along glaciers at night in a storm with a very hammered Walt Shipley, but to be fair, I also had a couple of liters of the cheapest, foulest, wine in my belly as well.
It makes you realize how safe rock climbing is. You know exactly what you are in for on a rock climb, with very few exceptions.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jan 22, 2014 - 10:53pm PT
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They can bolt it all they want. They still can't stop that grapefruit sized rock which misses your brain by 6 inches. We learned to go fast, put in minimal pro, and generally not dick around. It was a big learning experience
why Hemingway said mountain climbing is the real deal and not clipping bolts or sherpa'ing a pad around the Buttermilks
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