Discussion Topic |
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brotherbbock
Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Jan 29, 2013 - 05:28pm PT
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That is gnarly.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 29, 2013 - 05:34pm PT
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Band members who perform Narcocorrido (songs and stories about drugs and or cartels)are typically targeted for playing a song in support of X cartel, and Y cartel catches wind of it.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Jan 29, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
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didn't Crimpergirl tell about a negative experience there a few years ago?
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jan 29, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
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Survival makes sense to me. If you play in the narco culture, you risk getting caught up in the violence.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 29, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
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never heard any of these folks on the WHAT SONG Are You Listening ... thread.
we must be out of touch
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jan 29, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
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And we flood Mexico with guns, legal and illegal.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 29, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
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^coolo
In Chula Vista we're all used to hearing about lots of deaths and weird goings on. For example:
TIJUANA — Authorities searching a vacant property in eastern Tijuana may have found the remains of dozens of drug-war victims gone missing after their corpses were dissolved in lye by a man known as El Pozolero — the stew maker.
“We believe that there could be more than 100 bodies dissolved there,” said Abel Galván Gallardo, head of Baja California’s organized-crime unit
No info on the muscial preferences of the deceased, gut pretty sure they're not the Grateful Dead.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 29, 2013 - 05:56pm PT
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Survival writes:
"Band members who perform Narcocorrido (songs and stories about drugs and or cartels)are typically targeted for playing a song in support of X cartel, and Y cartel catches wind of it."
I heard these guys weren't that kind of band.
They don't have to be, though, to end up like they did.
The cartel goon squads aren't above kidnapping any available target, whether narco involved or not, and forcing them to confess on video to some horseshit story their captors made up for them, then snuffing them.
The whole idea is to make an example out of someone. Actual guilt is beside the point.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jan 29, 2013 - 05:59pm PT
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This is grim.
I rented a place through Magic Ed, and out back there was a bar/hall where there were parties going on, loud music trough the night. I wanted to go check it out, but thought better of it.
The band played love songs, not drug songs, or so the story says. Frickin' brutal.
EDIT
theres probably no less that 50 countries providing arms in Mexico...Al-kay-duh monies exist from Argentina to Tijuana now as well. They to recognize the weakness of our southern borders..
Ron, where do you get your intel?? Al-kay-duh has money to arm Mexican drug cartels? Boy, you have your hand on the pulse!
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:04pm PT
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I didn't say they were Narcocorrido, just that it was a possible explanation.
The band played love songs, not drug songs, or so the story says. Frickin' brutal.
They wrote a love song about the wrong girl?
Well, at any rate, it sucks for a whole band to be slaughtered if it was over the music or not....
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:08pm PT
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A massacre of 18 people is a big deal, even in a war zone like Iraq or Afghanistan. In Colombia it would be the biggest massacre in many years. Seems obvious it's drug related, one clue was this:
The band regularly played at bars in downtown Monterrey on the weekend. At least two of the bars where they had played had been attacked by gunmen.
Restaurants and bars are often associated with organized crime, and if they played at bars that had this kind of violence they may have been associated with one of the groups, at least in the mind of the other one. If there are rival drug cartels fighting over Monterrey, this is probably a message from one of them to the other to get out of town.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
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very very phuqed up. best limestone area near Austin.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
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kind of early to speculate, but (diffent incidents):
The band's singer, Julio Cesar Leyva Beltran, was abducted from a party in the state Choix, a city in the Mexican state of Sinaloa. He was taken away in an SUV after the band refused to play another song after the guests requested one. While in captivity, the kidnappers who remain unidentified, tortured Leyva and shot him in the leg.
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Another case was reported in November of last year when narcocorrido singer-songwriter Diergo Rivas was murdered in the state of Sinaloa. One of Rivas' famous songs was an ode to Joaquin Shorty Guzman, one of Mexico's most wanted drug lord.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/09/mexican-singer-kidnapped-tortured-refusing-to-play-song_n_1412245.html
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:10pm PT
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Maybe the band was playing at a Narco party, and they didn't know who their host was. The trumpet player made a pass at the wrong girl, and the narcos figured they'd have "fun" with the band.
The band member who escaped is probably shitting bricks right now...
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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:12pm PT
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I'm wary of even going to canon tajo, much less anywhere on the mainland.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
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Survival writes:
"I didn't say they were Narcocorrido, just that it was a possible explanation."
This is true. And you would be playing the percentages, because that kind of crap happens pretty damned often down there.
I was trying to imagine the mindset that would make someone want to do that, and I could only shake my head. Then I recalled dudes like Biggie Smalls and Tupac getting theirs, and it almost makes sense.
Or maybe the neighbors simply got tired of living next door to a noisy garage band, and that's just how those things are handled when you can't afford to bribe the police to come quiet them down.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:13pm PT
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Julio Cesar Leyva Beltran
I believe that one of the Sinaloa drug kings name is/was Beltran Leyva or Leyva Beltran. maybe a relative
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Synchronicity
Trad climber
British Columbia, Canada
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
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A good friend of mine just got there, I hope he is smart enough to flee. Crazy story and I will be keeping a close watch if things unfold further.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:21pm PT
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from 2009
Members of a group of Mexican drug traffickers have been indicted in the murders of nine people in the San Diego area - including two victims whose bodies were dissolved in acid, authorities announced Thursday.
"Los Palillos" gang - "The Toothpicks," in English - operated in the late 1990s and early 2000s in Tijuana, Mexico, as a cell of the Arellano Felix cartel, named for one of Mexico's most notorious drug trafficking families, said Mark Amador, a deputy district attorney. The gang of U.S. and Mexican citizens moved to the San Diego area around 2002 to deal in marijuana and methamphetamine after a leader was killed in a feud inside the Tijuana-based cartel.
The house "The Toothpicks" rented is a half mile up the road from me.
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-201_162-5241822.html
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:22pm PT
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Might want to review and rewrite, that's some offensive BS dude.
you might find it offensive Scott, but for the most part, Hank is speaking the truth
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Joe
Social climber
Santa Cruz
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:24pm PT
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truly tragic...
but I don't understand why it is necessary to diss Ed while expressing an opinion...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:28pm PT
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If this had happened to the American climbers instead of the band, we could have long thread full of rants about how they aren't real climbers, should have hired guides, shouldn't have been there in the first place, were insensitive the locals, should have listened to the locals, deserved everything that happened to them, or how nothing happened to them and it was all an elaborate hoax to defraud supertopians out of their hard-earned money.
Just sayin'
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
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Fox News, Ron. yawn.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:37pm PT
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Your the one blaming AL-KI-DER. How bizarre is that?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:38pm PT
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This kind of stupid sh#t can be stopped by having the civilian population of Mexico become organized and just going to the drug lords hangouts and kill em all.
Just slaughter all those fukers. Be done with those stupid dumbsh!ts.
No courts, arrests, no fuking trials just waste em all.
There's no other way.
All the legal ways are corrupt and run by all those stupid fukers .....
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:39pm PT
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Even your report says at least 37% come from the US. Put the U.S. on your list of countries that are a gun problem for Mexico.
Since you don't list the U.S. as a gun problem, I'll take it you think AL-KI-DER is a bigger factor. You brought it up.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:44pm PT
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Sounds like a Nigerian scam to me, I want to see pictures.
In all seriousness, this is really sad. People are always looking for a reason for these things, something to make it explainable. No one outright denounces violence and killing anymore.
Mexico has much stricter gun control laws than the US. It makes sense they would look abroad and specifically to us (we are closest) to get their weapons.
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
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This kind of stupid sh#t can be stopped by having the civilian population of Mexico become organized and just going to the drug lords hangouts and kill em all.
Just slaughter all those fukers. Be done with those stupid dumbsh!ts.
No courts, arrests, no fuking trials just waste em all.
There's no other way.
All the legal ways are corrupt and run by all those stupid fukers .....
actually Werner is on to something. I read the other day that Mexican villagers are arming themselves against the cartels. I will try and find the article.
the drug war is all about money. the way to financially defeat an enemy is to cut off their source off income. imo,, drugs should be legal in this country.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
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Fox.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:49pm PT
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The civilian population and the cartels are not completely separate entities.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
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There's no other way
Are you sure?
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
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philo, that's it
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:50pm PT
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Well, there goes my planned trip to Mexico. I am now thinking Les Calanques or Paklenica National Park in Croatia, much closer, and safer and I have climbed at both. Good limestone. Wait, I need money for a climbing holiday, darn, I should have thought about that.
Coz, I interviewed Carlos Salinas once, in London (1989). Of course at the time he had some of his own controversies as prez of Mexico and after.
If this had happened to the American climbers instead of the band, we could have long thread full of rants about how they aren't real climbers, should have hired guides, shouldn't have been there in the first place, were insensitive the locals, should have listened to the locals, deserved everything that happened to them, or how nothing happened to them and it was all an elaborate hoax to defraud supertopians out of their hard-earned money.
Graniteclimber, I don't know what to think of you. I have a couple of choice words, but I won't use them. I don't want to start a flaming war. But the connection you are trying to make is nebulous and disingenuous at best.
I am trying to be less judgmental and opinionated in life.
Safe climbing dude, with your karma, you need all the safety you can get.
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Jan 29, 2013 - 06:59pm PT
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Horrible... Just plain horrible and yes... I think going to Mexico under this kind of b.s. is stupid. They love kidnapping gringos and ransoming them for money. Even if your relatives do pay, their loved one/victim is usually already dead.
Plus we already lost a surfer Mexican kid from Ventura over there. They found him murdered a year after his disappearance. His parents are walking ghosts.
My two cents is there is great climbing all over the U.S. and Canada. Tons more overseas. Just please skip Mexico and any other violent hot spot. Yes, folks still go there and come back bragging about how they never saw trouble. Yet if you ever do find trouble, will you survive it? That's my big question. Will you have the chance to go back and talk about it?
I also think the U.S. should go in there with the cooperation of the Mexican government and just wipe them out. They are true evil, chopping up families, women, kids, etc. Time to clean them out.
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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Jan 29, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
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Does any one else remember the movie Clear and Present Danger with Harrison Ford?
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dave729
Trad climber
Western America
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Jan 29, 2013 - 07:11pm PT
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bleeding ears from bad music is usually a metaphor
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jan 29, 2013 - 07:13pm PT
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I have a really hard time believing that offshore $350 full auto ak's are harder to come by than $1000-$1500 US made rifles that require welding and machining to become full auto in Mexico. The gun market in the US is here to make money by selling to gun lovers who have dough and can buy most anything. If you want something that will shoot rival gang members or make a statement about one group liking a band - you don't need a Krebs custom AK to do that. I'd like to see the real statistics on which guns came from the US. Somehow I believe the US guns are Lorcins (a true POS) and pakistani sourced HK's are the real firepower.
The Mexican drug lords make money off the appetite of american users. Big dollars mean tough business practices-which have stepped over the bounds acceptable to many mexican citizens.
I spent a decade representing and selling farms, land, and ranches in Sonora and traveled the backcounty of the state extensively. I don't know if I will ever go back.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 29, 2013 - 07:16pm PT
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You can take a good sized ship to Pakistan and buy all the AK's you want
for $50 each and Bob's your uncle - instant army/cartel/sailing arms merchant.
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Chinchen
climber
Way out there....
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Jan 29, 2013 - 07:18pm PT
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All your SuperTopo bullshit seems pretty f*#king lame now, eh?
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Jan 29, 2013 - 07:19pm PT
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Killing is always justified... by those perpetuating it. Unless we accept that all killing is wrong regardless and never justified, we will always have killing.
What is worse is that there is an obvious and realistic non-violent solution to all of this, the legalization of drugs.
How many people on this thread saying the villagers should rise up against the cartels are for stricter gun control?
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Anastasia
climber
InLOVEwithAris.
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Jan 29, 2013 - 07:26pm PT
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Have you seen the high tech submarines they have that they use to smuggle stuff into the U.S? Drugs provide the money for all that and more. The guns are just to grease the machine to make more money.
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the albatross
Gym climber
Flagstaff
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Jan 29, 2013 - 07:34pm PT
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Here is something I posted on a thread regarding NorCal pot farmers who "suck".
A well done film called "Breaking the Taboo" which discusses the tragedy and failure of the war on drugs.
"Narrated by Morgan Freeman and Gael Garcia Bernal, this groundbreaking new documentary uncovers the UN sanctioned war on drugs, charting its origins and its devastating impact on countries like the USA, Colombia and Russia. Featuring prominent statesmen including Presidents Clinton and Carter, the film follows The Global Commission on Drug Policy on a mission to break the political taboo and expose the biggest failure of global policy in the last 50 years."
2 minute trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2vqpNT1kV4
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Jan 29, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
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I agree Ron, but there are societies with more and less violence. Mexico glorifies violence, especially as a form of retribution, arguably more than here in the US (yes I have lived there) and they are paying the price for it now. I know there will always be killing in the world, but does that negate a moral stance against killing that killing is wrong in all forms, and that retributive killings only perpetuate more killings? If more people took this stance, yes you would see a reduction in violence.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2013 - 07:41pm PT
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I really don't understand how in a modern country like Mexico the law enforcement system can be so weak for so long that this can continue for years.
Could you imagine the incredible amount of hell that would rain down on a group that did something like just one of these events here in the USA? They wouldn't last long enough to do it more than a few times.. if that..
It would be OVER.
How can Mexico not have the will to solve this issue?
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Jan 29, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
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Exactly Coz.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Jan 29, 2013 - 08:05pm PT
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I don't know much about India, but I think it is fairly violent with an ancient caste system and other problems (gang rapes)? I agree Mexico has a culture that accepts and often encourages violence.
Anyone interested in the topic of violence and how ordinary people (neighbors, women and children) can turn against each other, this is an excellent documentary, very disturbing though and will give you nightmares. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3DrvrrSgHI
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jan 29, 2013 - 08:11pm PT
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oh worldly coz
you do know mexican president can hold only one term right?
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Jan 29, 2013 - 08:27pm PT
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Scott, Calderon wasn't voted out.
Mexican presidents are limited to one six year term.
Climbski2. One word-corruption
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Jan 29, 2013 - 08:29pm PT
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Its a contextual thing too of course. Here in American we push buttons to vote to give people the authority to push buttons to send drones to kill women and children (and one or two guys deemed bad of course) in fiery explosions. In some ways one might appreciate that Mexicans at least do things mano a mano. (I know that is bad Spanish)
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jan 29, 2013 - 08:36pm PT
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I rented a place through Magic Ed, and out back there was a bar/hall where there were parties going on, loud music trough the night. I wanted to go check it out, but thought better of it.
The band played love songs, not drug songs, or so the story says. Frickin' brutal.
K-Man - sounds like you stayed at the same house Skip and I did on our Honeymoon.
Glad we had our one, wonderful trip. Yikes.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 29, 2013 - 08:41pm PT
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Why on earth would arms be easy to get in the region? Probably only the northern / border crews get their arms from the U.S., the rest no doubt come through Guatemala.
U.S. arms and equipment sales by country | Country or region (sales since 1996)
Mexico ($4,750,608,399)
Colombia ($3,111,194,327)
Brazil ($3,001,416,562)
Venezuela ($2,073,509,043)
Chile ($1,719,476,120)
Honduras ($1,496,116,225)
Argentina ($1,471,098,494)
French Guiana ($1,147,400,245)
Cayman Islands ($1,092,685,947)
Peru ($782,610,904)
Ecuador ($294,790,543)
Dominican Republic ($254,761,531)
Costa Rica ($183,852,792)
El Salvador ($170,589,716)
Bolivia ($142,475,940)
Panama ($127,733,456)
Bermuda ($117,278,701)
Netherlands Antilles ($108,395,794)
Uruguay ($80,424,297)
Guatemala ($75,261,564)
Latin America and Caribbean
Major Problems:
* Increasing demand due to general increase in criminal and cross-border activities.
* Approximately 90% of illicit arms enter through Columbia, Panama and Guatemala
* Illicit homemade firearms post a challenge. They flow from Central and North America.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Jan 29, 2013 - 08:57pm PT
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oh worldly coz
you do know mexican president can hold only one term right?
Now thats funny..LOL
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 29, 2013 - 09:19pm PT
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Reading this sh!t is like looking at a dyslexic's brain self-immolating.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jan 29, 2013 - 09:28pm PT
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Well, I'm incredibly saddened to hear about this. Some looser gang/cartel/whatever feels like they got "disrespected" or some other macho bullshit so they start killing people. Of course these idiots don't give a rat's ass about how it wrecks their own communities.
All I can really think about right now is the kind folks in Hidalgo who were already struggling and now are going to be financially devastated as the last of the climbers leave and probably won't return for a long time.. if ever. I think about the nice folks who own the coffee shop who are utterly dependent on climbers for income. I think about Ed and the other climbers who have put heart and soul into creating a world-class climbing area that will get passed up in favor of less conflicted locations.
I'm extremely grateful for my one wonderful trip there.
Sincere condolences to the families of the murdered.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 29, 2013 - 09:43pm PT
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Sorry about the violence getting closer to home. That's some pretty sad stuff right there. If you compare stats of the border towns El Paso Texas and Laredo, Mexico, Laredo has substantially less guns but a huge amount of gun violence in comparison. Sometimes it even spills over from Mexico to El Paso. Crazy stuff.
"And we flood Mexico with guns, legal and illegal. "
Thats bullsh#t. You have the stats or a link? Didn't think so. I've heard repeatedly that most of the illegal guns in Mexico come from Guatemala. Grenades and automatic weapons too. Of course, some get in from the US, and the US government will approval sales to the Mexican military who turn around and convert them to cash vis criminal sales. And some official US gov't approved illegals guns have gotten in as well, google "Fast and furious gunrunning". But have you ever crossed our border into Mexico? We spend 1.9 billion dollars patrolling it. It will NOT be easy. I challenge you to get a gun across it.
Fortunately, Mexico, unlike the US - has strong gun control laws. But sadly for normal civilians, only the honest people follow them, so honest people get f*#ked. F*#ked by the politicians, f*#ked by the cartel, even f*#ked by regular policemen who kidnap their loved ones to pick up a few extra bucks fro beer money. All the criminal, corrupt politicians, corrupt policmen (most of them) corrupt military (most of them) love the disarmament of the regular joes though, just like in Brazil where they have all but banned guns, are shooting the place up. It's not the guns that are the problem, again, Brazil has banned them and violence there is off the hook and off the charts. It's institutionalized poverty and corruption, and a mindset of the people.
Banning guns hasn't done sh#t.
Sorry about the violence getting closer to home.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jan 29, 2013 - 09:47pm PT
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See healyje's post above, and yes, I did provide a link, keep reading.
The predecessor program to Fast and Furious was started by Bush to address the problem of illegal guns going to Mexico.
Apparently Bush thought the problem was big enough to work on it.
Drugs go north to the U.S. Guns go south into Mexico. Just because it looks hard for you to do it, means nothing.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 29, 2013 - 09:50pm PT
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You know when a climber dies, we first say "I'm so sorry for your loss". Some of us think: What happened?, Did the climber f*#k up?, Was he/she a stoned or a dirtbagger? . But, first we say "I'm sorry, condolences to family and friends".
just saying.
Darwin
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:04pm PT
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Thanks monolith,, I was typing (and making dinner, multitasking they call it) as folks were posting.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:08pm PT
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Quote: "I also think the U.S. should go in there with the cooperation of the Mexican government and just wipe them out. They are true evil, chopping up families, women, kids, etc. Time to clean them out. "
Uhh, that ain't gonna happen soon, the evidence seems to indicate that the CIA uses drug sales to pay for other projects......so we cooperate with some and then wipe out the ones who don't cooperate. At least that is what people in the know say. The ones that are left are our bitches.
The world is a strange place.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:10pm PT
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Bush thought the problem was big enough to work on it.
That jackass Bush couldn't work his way out of a paper bag.
What bunch a stupid sh!t.
And he worked on it.
Good fuking work ya tool mono.
Instead ya morons it's a million times worst then ever.
Just like this stupid place.
Lots of yapping drooling and nothing ever gets done
Except !!!!!
The only thing ever gets done in the world today is it gets worst.
Stupid babbling yapping Americans .....
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
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Werner said: "That jackass Bush couldn't work his way out of a paper bag.
What bunch a stupid sh!t.
And he worked on it.
Good fuking work ya tool mono.
Instead ya morons it's a million times worst then ever.
Just like this stupid place.
Lots of yapping drooling and nothing ever gets done
Except !!!!!
The only thing ever gets done in the world today is it gets worst.
Stupid babbling yapping Americans ..... "
And your solution is.......?
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jstan
climber
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:18pm PT
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I also think the U.S. should go in there with the cooperation of the Mexican government and just wipe them out. They are true evil, chopping up families, women, kids, etc. Time to clean them out.
On the face of it hardly any of us would argue with this, But when we go in and kill, some of the dead will be innocent people. Kids, women, men just trying to feed their family. That will make us hated invaders and people will see the cartels as defending Mexico.
I read that our government's subsidy for corn production has made it impossible for Mexicans to make a living growing their primary cash crop. Whatever drugs we import from Mexico supports the cartels. We are not simon pure here.
There are things we can do, but those things hurt the interests of some in the US. Do we have the will to do it? We are part of the problem.
And we do have equally gross violence like this inside the US. Even there we don't seem to be able to agree on a course of action.
We need to stop thinking we are any different.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:28pm PT
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This spew from the usual politard suspects sickens me.
Have you no humanity?
Fukking self-righteous keyboard pundits.
Werner is right...
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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Jan 29, 2013 - 10:50pm PT
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Coz's main point, and the most important one mentioned in this thread, is to follow the money. It doesn't matter so much where the guns are coming from. It's where the money is coming from to buy the guns, pay the bribes and pay the bad guys.
And the money is coming from us. Not just pot, but coke, meth and others.
So you guys are proposing that we invade Mexico and kick some ass, including undoubtedly a significant number of civilians as collateral damage to fix a problem that we have largely created?
If we solve the problem here, the problem there will go away.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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Yes , follow the money
Exports of military weapons to Mexico doubled from 5,232 in 2007 to 10,454 in 08 when Barry and Eric took charge.
The number climbed to almost 35,000 at the height of "Fast and Furious" and crashed back down to 2,792 when it became public.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:13pm PT
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Couch: And your solution is.......?
Werner always has the same solution - get bitch slapped, acknowledge you're stupid, get it right in the next life...
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:16pm PT
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The only thing ever gets done in the world today is it gets worst.
Herr Braun, that's pretty cynical. While I agree that the world is getting worse in toto, there are some things, the un-onlys, that get done all the time that are good, if not miraculous.
Just one example. A very deserving fellow just got a double arm transplant after being blown up in the war.
Iraq veteran on his double-arm transplant: 'It feels amazing'
http://www.latimes.com/news/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-veteran-double-arm-transplant-20130129,0,420604.story
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
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^^ Holy sh#t.. Had no idea that could be done. Very cool thread drift.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:21pm PT
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LOL, TGT, Fast and Furious used only 2000 guns, not the 35K+ you imply. From your numbers, it looks like F&F was ultimately a success, but they don't apply.
F&F had nothing to do with legal US domestic exports showed by your chart, so your conclusions are based on bizarre data.
BTW, Obama became president in 2009, not 2008, so your 'doubled' statement applied to Bush.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:27pm PT
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Orale!
As I gather from the trend here. If the U.S. made sure to distribute the weapons to the everyday people in Mexico rather than the drug pedlars, there might be a solution at hand.
I have spent no time in Mexico (Baja is not there right?), but know anthropologists who have and if I polled them all I don't think any would agree that the guns to the people approach would work.
That said.
The Magnifiicent Seven.
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nah000
Mountain climber
canuckistan
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Jan 29, 2013 - 11:53pm PT
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I'm extremely grateful for my one wonderful trip there.
Sincere condolences to the families of the murdered.
+1 for everything justthemaid said a page back. especially the emphasis she placed on her final two lines.
most of the rest of this thread is the intellectual equivalent of the blind men and an elephant story.
except to make the metaphor more poetically accurate you'd need to replace the blind men with blind starving stray dogs and the living elephant with a dead one.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:11am PT
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Climb with me in Austin, Riley!
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MisterE
Social climber
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:15am PT
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Small-minded, petty-bickering BOYS.
Yuk it up, your desensitized drivel will come back to bite you in the ass one day.
Your REAL relationships must suck.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:19am PT
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"....so much goes on that 99 percent of America doesn't know about - there is a big news black out. If folks write about it they end up dead real fast."
Scary stuff there Riley. The Mexicans have to figure this out for themselves. Certainly NAFTA was an attempt to help the economics of the issue, but the price of drugs and the lure of fast/easy money are hard to compete with.
Fortunately, Hillary has been able to get them to sign a Memorandum Of Understanding (a MOU) between the Department of State of the United States of America and the Secretariat of Foreign Relations of the United Mexican States for the Promotion of Gender Equality, the Empowerment of Women and Women's Human Rights. Sometimes you just have to take the first important steps. Maybe next, say in 30 or 40 years, we can help them with these killings.
http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/2012/197907.htm
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:31am PT
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"worship at the altar of a stagant pool"
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:33am PT
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"....so much goes on that 99 percent of America doesn't know about - there is a big news black out"
And a lot of what we think is true, is not necessarily so.
This time last night I was reading up on what is going on in Syria, and what I found out led me to Mexican drug gang activity.
Remember that Mexican drug cartel chainsaw beheading video? The "Free Syrian Army" got a hold of that voieo and broadasted it saying that the guys lopping off the heads were Syrian Government goons, which could not have been farther from the truth.
The more I look into these kind of things, the less sure I am as to exactly who is responsible.
Everything I see is automatically considered to be bullsh#t, until proven otherwise.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:45am PT
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The violence really escalated when ex-Spec Ops guys got involved with and, in some cases, commandeered the cartels. They took the violence to a whole new level that it just hasn't backed down from and likely won't any time soon.
I actually agree with this statement:
Couch: It's institutionalized poverty and corruption, and a mindset of the people.
And I too sometimes wonder about the country's hyper-violence being somehow rooted in their Mayan heritage.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:04am PT
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The Maria Santos Gorrostieta story is so heartbreaking.
Sh!t like this just kills me .....
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Rolfr
Social climber
North Vancouver BC
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:30am PT
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Another climbing area in jeopardy, just legalize drugs and remove the billions of dollars profit the cartels fight over.
Canada is still a safe place to climb, your always welcome here . So sad when innocent people get caught up in this sh#t.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:37am PT
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Even though I'm all for drug legalization - and it is the right thing to do, even if it makes things worse - I don't see how that would reduce the demand for drugs.
As long as demand remains high, the folks in Mexico will still fight over who manages the supply.
Legalizing drugs here won't do one damn thing to encourage the Mexicans to find a non-violent way to divvy up their sh#t. It may even make things worse down there, by injecting more money into the mix.
But legalizing drugs is still the right thing, and I'm not being facetious.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:49am PT
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A couple legal plants per dirty hippie stoner and demand will plummet. Treat it like home brewing.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:03am PT
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For the guys I know who smoke, having "a couple plants" means they're about out of weed.
A couple dozen plants would be more like it.
But it would be much more effective to simply steal someone else's plants, just like people steal avocados in the night.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:11am PT
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Riley.
Thank you for Maria's story.
You are right I simply do not understand. I said so in an earlier post.
What an amazing brave woman who saved her child. Maybe her nation a little.
There ARE things worth dying early for.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:56am PT
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The cartels might even take over legal industries.
Witness our own history of The Mob back east, being in charge of such things as trash disposal and concrete delivery.
The Mexican cartels could just as easily move into American street-legal drugs.
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Rolfr
Social climber
North Vancouver BC
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Jan 30, 2013 - 03:04am PT
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Drug trafficking is and always has been about money, the probation in the 1920’s against alcohol created similar gang violence.
This isn’t about anything but pure monetary greed and intimidating your competition. The increase in gun trafficking is a direct byproduct of the defense of the cartels marketplace.
All addiction studies come to the same conclusion, a certain portion of the population will always become addicts and that percentage remains constant, the only noticeable difference is that as population centers increase so do the addicts.
As extreme as it may seem , legalizing and decriminalization of all drugs would not increase addiction but would remove the profitability and the criminal element.
Bootlegging of alcohol and overt gang violence significantly decreased after the removal of the probation in the 1930’s
I’m not suggesting that the cartels wouldn’t find other sources of illegitimate enterprises, but legalization would be a major counter offensive.
Arming additional american paramilitary and military organizations isn’t a solution. Violence on begets violence.
As unpopular as this may be, at one point there needs to be restrictions on firearms in the US.
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rockermike
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Jan 30, 2013 - 03:08am PT
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I don't like drugs (hell I don't like alcohol either) If I was God I would simply shoot the (mostly white) users in the back of the head with a 45 (kidding), but the fact is, the US had to legalize alcohol to take the hyper profits out the business and thus away from the mafia. Same thing seems to apply now to drugs in my opinion. Let RJ Reynolds get into pot - millions of acres worth. They are competitive as#@&%es no doubt, but they have a different way of doing business. As it is, my guess is that the cartels are funding the anti-legalization campaigns. And the LA mayor's campaign as well.
Similar story in Bolivia and Peru by the way. Drug lords are only drug lords because they are the only ones ruthless enough to be in an illegal business.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jan 30, 2013 - 09:24am PT
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His dad told him that the cartel had come to town and taken all the men and young men with them at gun point. They took them to a field and told them that they no longer work int he fields that they work for them and they will carry drugs into the US for them and if anyone has a problem with this they should stand up now and tell them.
We've been through all this 20 years ago in Colombia. What I do for a living is represent a few thousand people killed by Colombian paramilitaries in a lawssuit against Chiquita Brands, who were paying them for protection. In one case, a truck full of paras arrived at a soccer game, and kidnapped about 20 teenage players. They were made to unload about 3000 AK-47s from one of Chiquita's banana boats, then taken to a remote camp and either joined the organization, or were never seen again.
Everything everyone said here has already been said about Colombia too. The only reason things have gotten better is that the problem is moving to Mexico.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Jan 30, 2013 - 09:59am PT
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Climbski2: Riley.
Thank you for Maria's story....
What an amazing brave woman who saved her child. Maybe her nation a little.
There ARE things worth dying early for.
Ditto that^^^ I really appreciate you posting that story. It stays with me.
Aside from that...
Weed isn't the main problem people.. cocaine is. Pot is one thing, but legalizing an addictive drug like cocaine in the US would be a bad call Ripley.
@Rockermike:
If I was God I would simply..
I would simply evolve a convenient mold or pest that caused every coca plant on the continent to die off. Fortunately for the cartels, I'm not God. Maybe we can enlist Monsanto to do some good for once? They could engineer a coca-specific Round-up to bomb the plantations with. Game over man.
Just fantasizing here.
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Gunkie
Trad climber
East Coast US
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Jan 30, 2013 - 10:08am PT
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The trumpet player made a pass at the wrong girl...
I'm a trumpet player and I'm still here. So that wasn't me.
Has anyone hear from Ksolem? he's a trumpet player, too. Hope he didn't get whacked.
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TradEddie
Trad climber
Philadelphia, PA
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Jan 30, 2013 - 10:39am PT
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20 years ago a good friend of mine was "arrested" by police officers in Mexico City, driven at gunpoint to a dark alley where they were blindfolded and robbed. Things have only got worse since then. Sorry, Portrero will never be on my bucket list.
TE
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:03am PT
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I driven down into Mexico three times in the last year, twice by my self and never an issue. Been to Mexico maybe 15-20 times and never an issue.
Last time was down deep into Copper Canyon to Urique, didn't have issue.
Mexicans are cool people and quite friendly. It is shame the press they get.
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:07am PT
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Amigos! They are Mexicanos and not the cultured Spanish gentlemans so come to my country and see the humans not the criminals of Mexico! Viva Espania!
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:14am PT
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So they killed her, after all. Maria Santos Gorrostieta.
I remember her story from a few years ago and I remember her thoughtfulness and courage.
Yes, it is heartbreaking. :(
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10b4me
Boulder climber
Somewhere on 395
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:17am PT
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Bob, you got lucky
Enjoimx.What is the solution?
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:29am PT
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" They are Mexicanos and not the cultured Spanish gentlemans"
That is f*#king hilarious...the same spanish that wiped out most natives in the Americas without blinking an eye.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:37am PT
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What is the solution? They all kill each other. Latin America is overpopulated, anyway.
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:41am PT
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Chinga tu Puta Madre Pelut. Pendejo. Los Mexicanos tienen respeto para los Espanoles despuees de todo el desmadre que han echo alli, y tu escribes esto. No soy tan ignorante como tu para pensar que todo los Espanoles piensan como tu.Idiota, Go f*#k yourself. Why don't you just stick to making bolt ladders up routes instead of insulting cultures that your ancestors went and f*#ked up.
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GuapoVino
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:45am PT
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Bob D'A
I've been down to Copper Canyon a few times. I love that place but I'm scared to go back. The video below was taken in Creel. It shows the local cartel's thugs closing off the town so that they can go and eliminate their enemies there. I first went there about 1990 and there was drug cultivation going on there (Marijuana and Opium) but it was pretty isolated to some of the more remote canyons, especially Sinforosa, and villages. If you stayed in Copper Canyon you were away from it. For years they have been forcing the Tarahumaras to grow drugs for them. Now the drug cartels own whole villages and everyone who lives there works for them. They even own local police forces. It's common for the Federales or military to roll into an area and get in a huge gun battle with the local police. The local people have no chance of doing anything about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eckuD1vN6Vk
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:52am PT
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As they say, the first Mexican was born 9 months after the Spanish arrived.
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climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:52am PT
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Pelut
I'd be careful of the cultural "superiority" thing if you are Spanish.
Last time I checked Genocide wasn't considered a superior cultural trait.
Perhaps those Narco's are simply exhibiting a dominant genetic trait they inherited from the spanish.
That could be the real issue here.
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Steven Amter
climber
Washington, DC
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:02pm PT
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Hey Bob D'A!
John Steiger and I are scheduled to leave for El Potrero Chico this Sunday. As disturbing as this story is, I'm not particularly worried, as this was not random/tourists, but something else. If they had dumped the bodies somewhere else, we would not be having this discussion.
I remember in in the 1980's when some people from the suburbs were too scared to come in to Wash. DC because they thought they were going to get shot by crack dealers...
Of course in both in climbing and and in life it never hurts to keep one's eyes open...
Steve Amter
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
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I'm heading back in a month...not scare at all.
Don't you remember that 26 people where massacre in CT just under two months ago...people are still going to CT.
Steve...good for you...say hello to John for me. It has been a long time since I have seen or talked to him.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:04pm PT
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Sounds like Mexico is getting almost as bad as some neighborhoods in Carson City.
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Steven Amter
climber
Washington, DC
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:06pm PT
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Bob D'A
Will do!
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doktor_g
Social climber
Mt Shasta, CA
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
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Son of a bitch! I leave for there next week! Non refundable tickets!
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:42pm PT
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QITNL, that's very kind, thanks. Basically any lawyer could do it but only a crazy rock climber would want to. I knew I had the ability to deal with danger and unknown situations, and the mentality to pull it off. After 5 years its grown into a huge project, unfortunately also expensive to maintain my office down there so I am temporarily working in Washington DC to pay for it.
Al Jazeera did a great video on it about 4 year ago, called Chiquita Between Life and Law, the link is on youtube but I'm having trouble posting it. Someone put one of my complaints online, which tells the story but you have to skip through a lot of legalese and repetitive stuff to get to it. Also we have a facebook page, Asesorias Paul, where I post articles about the case, but 90% of them arein Spanish. Like the facebook page if you want to follow it, it will go on for 10 years more at least. Our office is in a serious drug producing area, drug gangs are constantly fighting over it, but they never bother us.
 Paul
ps - just about everyone in Colombia really does call me Don Paul
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KRS-Grun
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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"It seems to be a vendetta, a vendetta of some criminal group, because all the features of the facts make it seem that it was a group of organized crime," he said today in a radio interview Domene.
The spokesman said that the main organized crime groups operating in Nuevo Leon are the Gulf Cartel and Los Zetas, "who have spent years in a dispute terrible in this state, and regionally in Tamaulipas and Coahuila."
http://noticias.univision.com/mexico/noticias/article/2013-01-30/ataque-kombo-kolombia-pudo-ser-venganza#axzz2JTtvnjQl
Google translated. It's not like it was a random killing. That bar was a known dangerous cartel hangout. Everybody acts like the cartels are killing people randomly. If you don't play private parties for the cartels you should be fine. Though it is scary how close this was to the climbing area.
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KRS-Grun
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2013 - 12:56pm PT
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Also this was some terrible reporting from Rock and Ice. The area hasn't been evacuated, and the bodies weren't dumped in Potrero. There were abducted from Potrero but the bodies were found in Mina about 10 miles away. They party was at a known cartel hangout.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:13pm PT
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I spent a year and a half in central Mexico, before the drug wars escalated. The first time I was there nothing happened to me. Th second time I went down I had a myriad of bad experiences. The context of crime and the danger to foreigners is different than here in the US. Just different. Having street smarts and comparing things to American cities means very little. Yes our culture is almost equally messed up, but in different ways.
Just because people smile and are friendly (most Mexicans are) doesn't mean the countries problems are exaggerated and that everyone loves you. When people suggest this it is simply condescending. To suggest the violence in their country isn't bad and that they are all friendly and welcoming to foreigners, it minimizes their plight. They have a myriad of problems, many of which we are partly responsible for, and there is some genuine and widespread distaste for Americans often simmering below the surface. Ever been spit on before? Then there are some truly friendly and giving people as well, I have many Mexican friends who are great people. The two can present in various ways. My friends here in the US always talk about how bad it is when they go back home, the country has big problems.
True the Cartel's violence is usually between the cartels, but often it spills over as well. White people stick out in Mexico, Mexicans universally assume all white people are American. (like we universally assume all Hispanics are Mexican). There is a long and volatile history between us. You have to be careful. Travel to Hidalgo is probably safe, maybe, I don't know. What if the cartel knew there was a group of rich foreigners 200 meters away? Could they have found a reason to mess with them? Maybe. I can't think of another town in northern Mexico drug territory with this concentration of foreigners, its not unfeasible to think someone might take notice at some point for some reason.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:17pm PT
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But it would be much more effective to simply steal someone else's plants
Chaz, that used to happen to us back in the late 1960s-1970s in Saranap (between Lafayette and Walnut Creek). We’d grow 10-12 plants on our hill, even my mom, who disapproved of the stuff, would water them when I was away climbing or my late brother Mac was at UC Davis, Napa or France.
But even though her dad was a well respected judge, she grew up on a farm in WVA “and I just can’t see plants wither way”. Hence she’d water them for us. And you name it, we grew it – oranges, apples, pears, peaches, olives, plums (Mac’s first winemaking), Cab Sauv vines, cherries loads of veggies, rabbits, chickens, goats, etc. A mini-farm in suburbia.
Long story short, we hardly ever harvested our pot plants, but we know usually who did. We never resorted to guns or violence. Just shrugged our shoulders.
PS I don't smoke the stuff anymore.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:35pm PT
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Climbers will be fine. No reason for the cartels to fuk with their paying customers... as long as they aren't sleeping with their women.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:39pm PT
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^^^ That would be a decidedly unhealthy assumption to make and live by.
Psychos don't live by pat assumptions made by others.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 30, 2013 - 01:52pm PT
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They aren't psychos, they are refined business men. Don't you ever watch gangster movies?
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
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Phug That Shnitzel.
We've got impressive, safer places to climb in the states.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:14pm PT
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Apparently some people have been bringing their trained attack dog to the crags around here. I guess South Lake is pretty close to Carson, so I'm not surprised.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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Once the dogs have the bags taken out of them you can only guess what happens to them after that
Korean BBQ?
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:28pm PT
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So to link this to the Bad Kitty thread, which I admittedly started, when the question of invasive species came up, I expressed hope that the Florida python problem would abate.
But as some posters wrote on the thread and I have since researched a bit, those suckers are really taking over south Florida.
So the big question. Who will get wasted first? The pythons or the cartels (of Mexico and the world)?
Or will both problems persist for many moons to come?
A proud and stupid American who lives elsewhere.
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KRS-Grun
Trad climber
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Jan 30, 2013 - 02:40pm PT
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Yes that's all true dirt cload but the point is gringo climbers aren't in that group. I'm not saying everything is great down here. What happened to the band is horrible whether they had cartel relations or not.
I'm not saying you should come here. I personally think it's safer for climbers now with less climbers. After watching a huge rock fall through a crowd of people on the Jungle Wall during the two crowded weeks near new years, I think the loose rocks on multi-pitch routes are the bullets that have come way closer to killing climbers here.
The title of this tread is false about climbers fleeing. Maybe a few people have left but as of yesterday climbers were still climbing. Also the bodies weren't dumped in Potrero it was Mina. Just trying to shed some truth on the situation, though
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Steven Amter
climber
Washington, DC
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Jan 30, 2013 - 05:47pm PT
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This news article from the Toronto Star seems more detailed and up to date than most:
http://www.thestar.com/news/world/2013/01/28/bodies_found_in_well_where_mexican_band_went_missing.html
According to the article, which included quotes from a police spokesman, the band member who survived reported that "the 18 musicians and crew members were blindfolded and driven on dirt roads. He then heard the assailants ask fellow band members if they belonged to a drug cartel, shots were fired and the bodies were dumped into a well."
I don't think I'll be visiting too many live music venues when I'm down there next week...
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Jan 30, 2013 - 05:55pm PT
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Climbers will be fine. No reason for the cartels to fuk with their paying customers... as long as they aren't sleeping with their women.
Yeah, I hear that cartels are very careful not to shoot yuppie/hippy gringoes because otherwise the police would get involved. And I'm sure that a Mexican willing to kill fellow Mexicans would probably have reservations about messing with some gringo tourist.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Jan 30, 2013 - 06:46pm PT
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Guardase maestro Amter!
And have fun!
We will be awaiting your TR so pull down for us, brother.
Salud!
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Bay Area , California
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Jan 30, 2013 - 07:35pm PT
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19000 were killed in a year so add another 18 to it
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Steven Amter
climber
Washington, DC
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Jan 30, 2013 - 07:49pm PT
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Steve:
Big John has my back!
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gallo
Big Wall climber
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Jan 30, 2013 - 11:51pm PT
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.Duane Raleigh:
Your article is very sensacionalist ( aka Tabloid).
you pick careully a single incident and some general statistical data and rush to write this down out of context, inducing the reader to panic without a point of reference... of the real situation and most important:
DAMAGING THE IMAGE OF AN ENTIRE CLIMBING COMMUNITY.
I was last winter in Potrero for a couple of months and things haven't change much since my last visit.
In the last years there are at least a couple hundreds of climbers per season who stay for several weeks at the area without recalling a single notorious incident and the locals (the good and the bad ones) naturally knows who are all this foreing people.
I will notice that you must exercise common sense visiting potrero like you will do in some other out of states adventorous climbing areas like south america or even europe.
Acurate, sencible information is crucial to succed as a climber.
As a columnist of this magazine you owe to the readers a sound judgement
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Jan 31, 2013 - 12:28am PT
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very sensacionalist ( aka Tabloid).
you pick careully a single incident a
Yeah, just a tiny little inconvenient incident, like EIGHTEEN PEOPLE BEING MURDERED AND HAVING THEIR BODIES dumped in your locale.
The notorious St. Valentine's Day Massacre in Chicago? Only 7 were killed and they were gang members. These were band members. BAND MEMBERS!
So tiny little "single incidents" like this tend to attract attention.
What a bullshit comment Gallo makes.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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Jan 31, 2013 - 12:34am PT
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What happens in Mexico stays in Mexico.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Jan 31, 2013 - 12:37am PT
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Damn straight!
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jstan
climber
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Jan 31, 2013 - 12:37am PT
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An urban myth so that we may appreciate how drastically changed the world is.
Many years ago a certain American climber was imprisoned in Mexico. The story is after eight years
Mexico said they would release him. He opted to stay in prison. There he could get as many cheap
drugs as he needed, and there were connubial visits every week.
Why would I want to leave?
See what the US subsidy for corn production has cost us?
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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Jan 31, 2013 - 01:49am PT
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My dad and I cancelled a trip last year when we heard about some shootings in the Hidalgo main plaza. I know the plaza is still a couple miles from the climbing area, but we thought it might be better to go somewhere else. We stayed in the states and went to Hueco tancos! Which was quite nice.
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Meatbird
Social climber
Lindsay, OK
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Jan 31, 2013 - 08:16am PT
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Gallo, I'm I reading the right story in Rock and Ice? The one in the front page news section. I'm bemused by your accusations against Raleigh's reporting. I didnt get the sense it was sensationalist. Frankly, I'm glad to get the heads up on a terrible incident that would give me pause before taking a trip there, especially with family in tow. Unless the facts are wrong, I don't know how he would have presented it any better.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Jan 31, 2013 - 08:44am PT
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The 'its just as dangerous in LA' argument shows a lack of understanding of the drug war in Mexico. These gangs out gun the local cops, buy them off or kill them and intimidate or pay off the federales. The local reds and blues in the US run drugs, do some drivebys on rival gangs. There is no comparison.
Just because you haven't heard of gangs kidnapping Americans doesn't mean that it isn't going to start happening in the near future. Sure, keep pretending that PC is south Texas, you are perfectly safe, it's vacationland in a sea of bolts, nothing to worry about.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jan 31, 2013 - 03:21pm PT
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...more murders in northern Mexico...
Does this really come as a suprise to anyone?
I feel much safer in Mexico than most places in LA.
L.A. is part of Mexico. I would feel safer in Syria than in L.A.
And I grew up in Oxnard.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 31, 2013 - 04:39pm PT
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Firstly, I have not been to Mexico in over 27 years. In 1985 five of us went to climb the three main volcanoes. We flew to Mexico City, hired a VW van and set off.
After the night before we were to fly out, we went to a bar/nightclub in Puebla. Rob Grandfield was driving and did not have one alcoholic drink. On the way back to the hotel, two cops in a VW bug stopped us, this is around midnight, saying we were going the wrong way up the street. BS, we were on that streets hours earlier with traffic.
They said they smelled alcohol on Rob's breath and wanted $100 each or else he goes to jail. Fortunately, one of our team, Henry, whose parents were from Mexico, got them down to $50 for both of them.
Got the flight the next day.
But on this trip just about every Mexican we met were good people.
Been to Mexico several times in my life. Only other trouble was in TJ. My brother Mac, his then girlfriend Muffet Hemingway (yes, a granddaughter), my mom and I. Walking down a street some bloke came up and snatched Muffet's purse/handbag. I chased after him (I was 14 with long hair and broken Spanish), Mac behind me. Down an alleyway and gone.
Cop car came up, I tried to explain what happened. No go.
Otherwise I have known a lot of good Mexicans over the years (one team I played with was AC Mexico for a season in the old San Francisco Major Division, at the time the top of four divisions, also with SF Celtic, Major matches at the old Balboa Stadium). EDIT, I also played with a Jamaican team in East London (local league, played at Hackney Marshes). Good footballers, nice guys but they sure liked their ganja.
Loads of dead bodies in Mexico, Syria, Congo, 20 children in Connecticut, child soldiers in Asia and Africa made to kill other children, 77 dead in the Norway massacre in 2011. It is not just endemic to Mexico.
And we call some animals 'beasts'.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Jan 31, 2013 - 04:54pm PT
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...got them down to $50 for both of them...
I spend a lot of time in southern Mexico (Yucatán peninsula) scuba diving and cave diving. I like certain parts of Mexico, and I'd like to retire down there on the Riviera Maya.
The U.S. State Department issued a travel warning for Mexico that went something like: "...Mexico...where stories of police corruption are legendary and true..."
I've had similar incidents with corrupt police in Mexico... One cop actually searched through my wallet and took all of my cash right in front of me.
If you can stay away from the drug cartel havens, and avoid the cops, Mexico is a great place.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Jan 31, 2013 - 05:01pm PT
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Guadalajara has to be one of the most beautiful cities in the Americas.
But if I was to climb in Mexico now, I'd stick to Baja.
But there is so much rock in this world where there is little domestic violence, why risk it?
I find that free soloing 5.15 is risky enough. (Then I woke up.)
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Jan 31, 2013 - 05:18pm PT
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There is a current travel warning out against Nuevo Leon.
Los Angeles:
Population - 3,795,361
Murders in 2010 - 293
Ciudad Juarez:
Population - 1,321,004
Murders in 2010 - 3,075
Not really the same.
We have plenty of problems, I know, but when was the last time in the US someone found a mass grave with 50 people in it? Seems a little unfair to the Mexicans to just poo poo the situation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciudad_Ju%C3%A1rez#Demographics
http://www.city-data.com/city/Los-Angeles-California.html
To be clear, objectively, I don't think the people in Potrero are in any grave danger, I just find it a little annoying when people make blanket statements. Yes, a massacre at my local climbing area might make me think twice about climbing there, objectivity and rationality be damned.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jan 31, 2013 - 05:20pm PT
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Funny. Alex went anyways. He shoulda stuck to Vegas and went to the fights this weekend! Best of luck.
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Jan 31, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
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does alex honold ever go down to mexico?
never
what is in mexico?
mexicans.
(dusk til dawn 1-quenten t.)
they kill all other types.
how many minorities are there in mexico? vietnamese? indians? egyptians?
none.
the ones that went down there are all dead
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steveA
Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
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I just heard from my daughter, who has been climbing down there.
I strongly suggested that she get out of there.
She said that No climbers left and there were many police around, soon after the incident.
Apparently, none of the climbers are concerned, and "feel" safe. Honnold just arrived.
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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I just returned from two weeks in Mexico climbing at El Chonta, a bit further south. All was well and nobody got hurt, except me. I stumbled while taking photos.
Sounds like all the fraidy cats should also avoid movie theaters, grade schools and the like right here in our own country. You may get gunned down. Seriously.
The danger from cartel violence is bad enough without sensational headlines, such as this post. Interesting to read the comments and feel the racist hostility coming right out in front. Sad.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Yeah, nobody's knocking Mexicans, just Mexico.
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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"Interesting to read the comments and feel the racist hostility coming right out in front. Sad."
Stupid comment, but guess it's not to surprising with how easily that word is thrown around these days. Must make people who have dealt with "real" racism pissed off.
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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Really, no racism here? How about the bs about Mayan and Aztec heritage? Of course, the German heritage has no blood on its hands. The comments saying that the mexicans can't solve their problems so we should invade them and slaughter their people until we feel safe is blatantly racist. I don't hear anyone saying we need to send troops to Compton.
I have lived racism. As a child I couldn't sit with you in town at a restaurant. Signs on the wall forbade it. I was not allowed to drink from white fountains. Really, our country has come far but there are some lagging behind.
Great video too.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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+1 Manny. I don't like to get into fights with people, but this is also disturbing to me.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Bolderado
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You go, fellow. Vaya con Dios.
This is Riley, reporting from the scene of the abduction at La Carreta, 'the beer's still al tiempo and the rocks continue to fall sporadically. Some things never change in Mexico...'
Film at 7.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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+1 Manny. I thought that was over the top also.
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Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
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We just spent New Years in Rosarito. Had a great time, stayed on the beach. Weather was a bit cool, but the one really nice day we drove down the coastal road to Ensenada. No problems.
Yes, you have to be a bit more cautious when traveling in Mexico, and I wouldn't go anywhere near Juarez anymore. For me, going there isn't much different then going to the "bad" part of town. Keep your head on a swivel, don't be flashy, loud or wear expensive clothes, and you're usually good to go. A little common sense goes a long ways.
Granted, Mexico is no where near as safe as it was when I was spending a lot of time down there 17 years ago, but it's still possible to be there and be relatively safe.
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Gilroy
Social climber
Bolderado
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By all means, go to Enchanted Rock, Riley. It's the best times of the year just now. The kids will LOVE it. PM if needed.
Keith
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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+ 1 Manny
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scooter
climber
fist clamp
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(Reuters) - Wielding machetes and rusty shotguns, a motley crew in face masks escorts dozens of captives onto a basketball court to face a public "trial" for suspected ties to criminal gangs.
This is Wild West justice, Mexican-style.
Outraged at relentless extortion, kidnapping and theft as a wave of drug-related violence washes over Mexico, farmers, shopkeepers and other residents in the mountainous southern state of Guerrero are taking the law into their own hands as "community police."
Both state and federal police as well as the military leave them to their own devices, manning checkpoints at entries to towns, but venturing no farther.
T-shirts pulled over their faces with holes cut for the eyes and nose, dozens of gunmen on Thursday flanked the tiny square in the hamlet of El Mezon, where more than 50 prisoners were paraded in public and accused of crimes from murder to rape to theft. No real evidence against them was presented.
The vigilante justice underscores a serious challenge facing new President Enrique Pena Nieto, who has vowed to shift the focus away from a head-to-head fight with drug-smuggling cartels that has killed up to 70,000 people in the past six years and to a more effective campaign against extortion and violence.
He plans to create a civilian-led police force made up of former military personnel that will replace the armed forces in the field, although until then, the government will keep troops out on patrol to deter violence.
Many Mexicans have little faith in police forces or the justice system. In this corner of the country, they are taking on the job themselves.
One of the gunmen watching over the alleged criminals on Thursday wore a Mexican "lucha libre" wrestler's mask, another a Spider-Man hood and a shotgun slung over his back. Some curled their fingers nervously over triggers.
They paraded the accused in groups of five in front of hundreds of onlookers. A collective gasp rose when one man was accused of murder by dismembering, a common trademark of gruesome gangland killings. He stared back at the crowd with an impassive smile.
Some local leaders gave testimony about how they themselves had been kidnapped by the accused. Sentencing will come later, organizers say.
"Many people saw it when they grabbed me. They stroked my shoulder and said they would kill me," one community police leader told the assembly.
"In my mind, I am dead, I haven't been able to get over it."
EXTORTION, KIDNAPPINGS
Communities in the folds of rugged mountains east of the once-thriving and now gang-infested beach resort of Acapulco say police are often in cahoots with criminals, do nothing when crimes are reported and ask for bribes themselves.
Extortion has flared in and around Acapulco over the past five years after two cartels clashed and one fragmented, creating a series of mini-cartels and kidnap gangs.
"We are victims of extortion, of injustice. We have been abused," said Bruno Placido Valerio, who coordinates community police groups in 20 towns and villages - a total of about 240 gunmen.
"The people are indignant at so much abuse. But we are not seeking anarchy or aiming to take justice into our own hands, but rather find a way out from the problem we are living with."
While community self-protection is a tradition in some parts of Mexico, these more radical community policing groups are an offshoot that started to form in early January.
His eyes peering out from behind a black ski-mask and clutching an aging .22-caliber rifle, a man who goes by the nickname "El Ciclon" or "The Cyclone," kept watch over residents of nearby communities attending the start of Thursday's "trial."
He and others covered their faces to remain anonymous and avoid reprisals from friends of the captives, or from government authorities.
"The people are fed up," the 45-year-old farmhand said. "Our government doesn't back us, so we decided to try to clear away all the bad people. We have to get rid of these animals."
On the eve of the trial, Guerrero state officials staged a last-ditch push to defuse the situation, but to no avail. The communities must now debate whether to impose their own punishments, or opt to turn them over to the real courts.
Some are demanding an eye for an eye.
RAPISTS 'SHOULD BE RAPED'
"They must be punished in line with the crime," said Odila Gonzalez Rios, who oversees community policing in the settlement of Copala, near the Pacific coast. "If they have raped, then they should be raped to see how it feels."
"If they have killed? The same. ... They must die, because otherwise this will never end," she said. "Do to them what they have done to others."
Acapulco last year earned the dubious distinction of being the murder capital of Mexico.
Police pickup trucks patrol Guerrero state, bristling with semi-automatic weapons. Sandwiched between supermarket advertisements on the radio, advice is broadcast on how to anonymously denounce organized crime.
The community policing "people power" approach comes at a cost. With so many guns openly held against the law, school absenteeism has soared.
"Closing schools is no way to combat the social cancer of insecurity," said Silvia Romero Suarez, Guerrero state's education minister. "It impacts our schools because teachers are afraid and parents fear sending their children to class."
The flourishing of community police groups in Colombia was a major factor in a deep spiral of violence that country grappled with as drug gangs co-opted them in the fight against Marxist guerrillas.
Mexico's government now faces a careful balancing act in handling the issue to avoid stoking demands for self-determination elsewhere, like in the southern state of Chiapas.
In the meantime, it is allowing gunmen to operate outside the law.
"This is a violation of human rights. They are violating people's right to freedom," said Oscar Ortiz, a law professor based in Acapulco. "The Mexican state, and that of Guerrero in particular, should get into gear because you cannot permit the law to be broken like this."
But some local officials insist the push for justice is forcing criminals to think again and making the area safer.
"They have filled us, the authorities, with courage, I can't hide or deny that," said Severo Castro Godinez, mayor in the town of Ayutla.
"Fortunately today, thanks to this movement, Ayutla is at peace. ... The community police are good people. They are responsible citizens. They are not looking to kill, they are looking to correct social behavior."
(Additional reporting by Luis Enrique Martinez; Editing by Kieran Murray)
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Manny, didn’t mean to be dick and say it was a “stupid” comment, I should have stayed civil and just said I don’t agree with it. In my opinion the word gets thrown around way to easily, especially lately.
At what point does ignorance become racism? Is there any difference you think? If racism is just simply making ignorant comments, than what do we call people who actually walk around all day thinking they truly are above other human beings that don't share the same skin tone, culture, etc.. What do call those people that truly feel you shouldn't be able to drink from a drinking fountain. Is there “Racism” and then there is “Racism light” or what? Am “I” just ignorant to the word racism and don’t realize it encompasses many meanings? I’m willing to learn.
"I see a lot of over the top comments here"
Exactly, that's what I see from some posters here. over the top comments, I would not classify them as comments that are meant to be racist or by people that are racist. Do you call Hispanics that make comments about taking back California and kicking out the Gringos as making hostile racist threats, do you think they are racist, or just making stupid ignorant comments? I have not seen anything that said anything to the effect of "we should exterminate all the Mexicans". If you have than post the quote if you would like. All I see is people saying we should exterminate the cartels. There are many on here who you can tell by their posts don’t blame the Mexican people, but rather the US or Mexican governments, cartels, corruption, etc..
Toadgas wrote:
"it's a cultural-genetic thing, that bloodthirsty level of ultra-violence
...linked to their Aztec/Mayan heritage
check out Apocalypto by Mel Gibson"
That is an ignorant comment, but do you really believe Toadgas walks around thinking he is above you or I. If Toadgas were to read history and learn that Mexicans, are not blood thirsty because of their past cultures and still insisted on believing this, then I would say he is racist. I believe true racism requires an effort to stay ignorant in the face of other overwhelming facts. I don’t know, I just didn’t feel any “racial hostility” coming from this thread. I see "over the top comments". But perhaps I have been too brainwashed living here with the Gringos and don’t know what is good for me. Perhaps he really is racist and will claims so, I don't know.
Sorry you had to deal with racism. What part of Latin America did you grow up that had “Whites Only” signs? I know there is racism in Latin America towards the less white looking or straight up indigenous Latin Americans, but I have never seen or heard of signs like these. My mother was literally born in a grass hut, is obviously of indigenous background and was adopted into a home where she was only treated like everyone else by my grandmother that adopted her and some cousins, she has told me of the discrimination she suffered in her own home, but nothing about public things like this. Not saying I don’t believe you, just wanted to learn some stuff here. Didn’t know about this before.
By the way ToadGas, not sure if you were just joking, as that comment “was” pretty ignorant, but Hollywood movies I would assume you know aren’t the best places to get the real history of other cultures or countries. Besides it shows the Spanish landing in Mexico at the height of the Mayan culture which was way off. The only Mayan temples the Spanish saw had been overgrown with vegetation for hundreds of years. I guess good ol’ Mel was trying to mix Aztecs in with the Mayans. The Spanish and French were more violent, at least the Mayans, Aztecs, etcc., they did it for religious reasons not just to take over sh#t. Still very gruesome indeed.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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I'll never forget my Mexican friend here in the US who once wore a t-shirt to work (dishwasher) with a massive swastika on it.
I wonder, is saying Mexicans are good people just as racist as saying Mexicans are bad people? The connotation is different, but what about the strict definition?
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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Dirt Claud, I am not offended that you say I' stupid. I tend to agree that I can be. I have often been in your shoes.
What you wonder about, racism v. ignorance is simple in my mind. Ignorance can be resolved with the proper information. Racism is different. You have to believe that your race is superior to others, usually a belief held by every race. Acting with hatred and intolerance towards another race is bigotry. We can all agree that every race has its bigots. I try to control my sense of superiority, but it's difficult at times.
Not all of the outrageous statements, some over the top certainly, were meant as anything more than blowing off steam, I'm sure. It is a horrible situation we are dealing with on both sides of the border. Many more will die until we find a solution. The solution requires action inside and outside Mexico.
I was born in Arizona almost 60 years ago. It wasn't difficult to know your place then. I remember a lot of things changing, racially, that were difficult for all.
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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Ron, I must have misunderstood your initial statement:
"Ive mentioned that before Hankster! Im all for that. We go around the globe to free countries under the rule of the ruthless yet we put up with a neighboring country that floods us as well with problematic types as they attempt to escape what is nothing but a large cesspool of murder rape and pillage. And we DO NOTHING about that.."
It sounds as though Mexico/Mexicans is a "large cesspool" or was it something I don't understand about your statement?
I totally agree with you that the cartels are every bit as dangerous as Al-q and closer.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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"But nobody should downplay the changes that have occurred in Mexico or the dangers."
I agree, this is what irks me the most about this thread and the one on MP. I just wrote a post on MP saying the same thing.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Just to clarify, you think the US should go into Mexico and stop the cartels Ron?
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Of course the Mexicans would welcome us with open arms like in Iraq, and everyone would live happily ever after like in every other country we have intervened in.
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Weather it's a good idea or not. The problem is many Mexicans would feel the "Imperialistic" USA is just trying to take over Mexico and the Mexican news media would make it look that way as well.
Edit: F*#k that Pancho Villa guy Ron, the real revolutionary was Emiliano Zapata.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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The average Mexican would not, welcome the US. I've lived there, I speak the language, I know the country well. Your Iranian friend is an N: of 1. I also firmly believe change has to come from the inside for it to be lasting, we have zero track record of foreign intervention actually ever working to enact a lasting change in the last 30 or so years, we have a long track record of destabilizing countries, we have a debt to take care of, and an obvious non-violent solution to the problem. So I disagree.
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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Two middle aged white males were slaughtered by another middle aged white male in Phoenix. Then he killed himself. Violence is universal, not just limited to Mexicans and gang bangers.
I'd like to see the facts showing that illegal aliens take any significant portion of the USA's debt. I think there are plenty of freeloaders on the govt dime, corporations for instance. Why do we pay Big Oil billions in subsidys? Oh, I know, they're all-american. Or maybe not.
The USA needs to retool itself and focus on domestic issues before we can school the world.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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viva la raza
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Ron, whether I agree or disagree with what you just wrote is irrelevant, the outcome of what you are suggesting is what matters.
Sending troops into Mexico would not make the situation better, it would make it worse, we would have a much worse situation on our hands. I guarantee you of that. Our track record with foreign intervention is one of destabilization, not stabilization. We simply don't know what we are doing when it comes to these things, and our hands are tied as a country by a binary two party way of thinking that prevents us from being able to effect change in another country even if we knew how to do it.
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atchafalaya
Boulder climber
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"Why the hell we put up with hundreds of thousands of KNOWN gang members is beyond me..."
The same reason we put up with ignorant racist f*#ks from moundhouse.
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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Ron, the ethnicity figures I don't doubt; the hatred you feel from cholos, I don't doubt. The citizenship is what you referred to as far as feeding off the govt tit, illegal aliens. But ethnicity and citizenship are two different things.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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"You're a pathetic, lying as#@&%e."
As much as I love Mexico I experienced my share of racism down there. I was spit on, rocks thrown at me. A good friend of mine was murdered here in the US in what I think may have been a partially racist attack (he and the other victims were white, the killers were black and the attack was brutal and unfounded). It is a two way street. I think the answer is to not get on it. Accept people for who they are as individuals when you meet them.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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Thank you, jghedge, for demonstrating bigotry comes from the Left, too.
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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hey, what do you know. This has turned into a "Bash the Non-Liberals" thread.
I'm really surprised. Wouldn't expect it from this crowd. How original.
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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When you put it that way Ron, the cartels are here. Why bother heading south of the border? We are already fighting the battle you espoused earlier, just not south of the border.
Immigration is another thing. It deserves its own thread. I wish you luck in Reno. Arizona is no longer the quiet paradise it once was. People from the Mid-west ruined it...
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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Just kidding. I love my Michigan friends, I have a couple but seldom talk to them or see them.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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No, jghedge.
Your bigotry is the same as all other bigotry. Dividing people by groups, and then saddling the whole group with the reputation ( either real or imagined ) earned by the very worst individual in that group.
You can't see that though, because it's a rare bigot who's aware of his own irrational prejudices.
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Handjam Belay
Gym climber
expat from the truth
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Well kidnapping and murdering aside at least we now know there is a known Cartel bar/hangout within a stone's throw from where we all camp.
Nothing to worry about with that. Right?
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Jghedge,
You can't tell me you don't see the irony in what you posted. Two way street dude, you are an integral part of the problem.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Calling racists dumb is so bigoted!
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Wow that 's funny. Ron is racist, but somehow Manny wants to still engage him in a friendly way. Whats' going on Manny don't you see the racist that Ron really is? Or do you like conversing with racists?
Hmm? Either that, or perhaps Manny is just smart enough to know what a real racist acts like.
Sorry, don't mean to get you involved Manny. I just find it funny that all these "white" people are calling Ron racist yet you obviously don't see him to be that way and engage him still in a friendly manner. Perhaps you just accept everyone for who they are.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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how many minorities are there in mexico? vietnamese? indians? egyptians?
none.
the ones that went down there are all dead
First interesting thing said here in a while. Is there any evidence for this?
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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You obviously missed this comment from Manny than.
"I was born in Arizona almost 60 years ago. It wasn't difficult to know your place then. I remember a lot of things changing, racially, that were difficult for all."
This was after I asked him about the racism he had to deal with and where he was from.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Just to be clear Jhedge you are saying or ipmlying all conservatives are racist and have a low IQ?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Well kidnapping and murdering aside at least we now know there is a known Cartel bar/hangout within a stone's throw from where we all camp. Nothing to worry about with that. Right?
I wouldn't. If you don't bother them, I doubt they would bother you. That's how Colombia is anyway. You're not very interesting compared to the multimillion dollar drug deal they're thinking about. Or their enemies they're fighting against. Although, if you look too dorky with a buzz cut, mirrored shades bizarre paranoid behavior, they might think you're DEA and that would be different. I sure hope zBrown can get to the bottom of what happened to all those Vietnamese tourists who disappeared down there.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
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Are Americans safer in Mexico than at home? Please, what a load. At least
here 99.9% of the cops are honest and well-meaning. Mexicans often don't
even call the man because they don't trust him. I've had a number of
friends who have been shaken down by the fuzz por una mordita. One climber
rented a car at the airport to drive to Orizaba and got shaken down twice
before he could get out of Mexico City.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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^^^ Well I'm not gonna work on it, but I might spend some time on the ethnic cmposition of Mexico. I somehow feel that there is not a giant wave of immigrants descending upon Chiapas.
EDIT:
I have never been to portrero chico and am not anticipating a trip nearfuturewise, so I poked around a little and did find some photographic evidence of Vietnamese tourists, alive no less.
pat (below), but the question I think is, do they stay?
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
|
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In a way there is. A lot of immigrants from other countries pass through Chiapas on their way to the US, Ironically the Mexicans don't treat them very well.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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//http://www.lonelyplanet.com/blog/2012/04/30/are-americans-safer-in-mexico-than-at-home///
The above article is truly skewed. Think if yourself as a climber: probably white, probably upper middle to upper class. This fits into the category of an American likely to get killed in America? No, you aren't. It is poor, non-white people competing for limited resources that get killed.
So you travel to PC, you are now not protected like you are in the US. You don't live in the suburbs, with police that would respond in a second to a white person getting accosted in any way.
It doesn't matter how many cops are in PC or anywhere in Mexico before or after murders. They are all ready and willing to be paid off or look the other way at any given time, and they will turn on you in a second to take your money. Later, no one saw or heard a thing. Been there, done it myself.
This isn't a rant against Mexicans or Mexican people. I feel sorry for people having to live in what is, in effect, anarchy.
If you 'feel safe' in Mexico, great, go for it. 'You are more likely to drive in a car crash' probably a better analogy. As thing get worse, no one will go to Mexico. Law and order are non-existent by US or first-world standards.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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I get the whole don't bother them and they won't bother you thing with the cartels, I just wonder if it is not a matter of time before they poke their head across the street and say hey guys... look at what we have here, a way to get some extra cash.
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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|
"In a way there is. A lot of immigrants from other countries pass through Chiapas on their way to the US, Ironically the Mexicans don't treat them very well."
This never gets reported here. The Federales treat the Guatemalans and other Central Americans like sh#t a lot of the time.
Racism and Discrimination abounds anywhere in the world, not just in "Whitey" land.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
|
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You obviously missed this comment from Manny than.
For fuk sakes man, it is thEn, not thAn. Don't try to pass it off as a typo either, you do this repeatedly. This has nothing to do with Mexico or racists, it has everything to do with 3rd grade spelling class.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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You didn't really answer the question Jhedge, but I am going to take that as a yes.
I have two college degrees, lived outside of the US for six years, speak two other languages, and have moved away from from my liberal upbringing to a libertarian view with plenty of conservative elements to it (fiscal and judicial) though I disagree with Republicans on many issues (Democrats as well). Somehow though if I ever express those conservative views I am a conservative, I am racist, and have a low IQ because god forbid anyone hold views outside of the two doctrines we are allowed.
Your view is a cop-out, pure and simple, you don't want to have a valid argument with someone or consider their point of view. That sort of thinking is the essence of bigotry.
"Racism and Discrimination abounds anywhere in the world, not just in "Whitey" land. "
Exactly, and usually where we least expect it like when we try to find "scientific" studies to label those on the other side of the policitcal spectrum as all having low IQ's.
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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Sh#t, I didn't know I was writing an essay for college. You guys post here and know how fast paced this sh#t can get and you are going to blast me for that. I try my best to check my spelling before posting, but didn't really think any Professors would get upset over some grammatical errors. Fair enough. would you be kind enough to run through my posts and point out all my spelling errors. I mean it's really relevant to the whole topic here.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
|
|
Yes, the internet age is a succubus on grammar and spelling. We'll all be writing like we are special ed in 20 years.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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I mean it's really relevant to the whole topic here.
It is entirely relevant. It is not a simple spelling mistake. It is a persistent ignorance of the difference between two common words. You cun't vary wall argue about the ignorance if otters of you don't knew the weaning of the wards you use.
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dirt claud
Social climber
san diego,ca
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As I said before Mechrist, you are a special kind of Prick. You gonna go ahead and leg hump me know and follow all my posts so you can call me ignorant. You are f*#kin moron dude. But I know the net is your life and you get off on this sh#t so have fun. I'll be looking for you to check all posts for spelling as well. Or you just have a hard on for me, not anyone else. This internet sh#t is so funny. Have fun on ST the rest of the evening.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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No, I'm simply going to ignore you, as usual, until you start going off about ignorance while committing grammatical atrocities that would shame an 8 year old.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Mexico has much stricter gun control laws than the US, and a much higher murder rate.
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monolith
climber
SF bay area
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^^Oh gawd, here we go again^^
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
|
|
Ron, Dirt Claud I am simply willing to let everyone believe what they want as long as they don't force me to accept their belief as my truth, whether it is about race or guns. Just because you're a wacko (not saying either of you are)doesn't mean I won't climb with you.
I usually try to ask about facts to refute arguments based on hearsay or opinion. Which is why I was so incensed by R&I initial report about bodies thrown into Homeros well. That was akin to throwing another log on the fire and what got me into this thread. Now here we are. Back to the Treasure of the Sierra Madre, "badges, badges, we don't go to show you no stinking badges!" Classic Mexican bad guy nightmare for everyone.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Not arguing for or against Mono, just pointing out some facts and inconsistencies. I am not a gun person, I just think the debate has very little to do with the cause of the gun violence which shows insincerity on our parts as Americans.
^^^
They have been applied, vast majority of ordinary Mexicans don't own guns. Cartels do which they acquired illegally.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
|
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Mexico is in the midst of a full blown narco insurgancy. you simply can not compare the US violent crime and ramdom mass shootings to a civil war.. Different game entirly.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
|
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And if we enacted the same level of gun control here in the US as in Mexico we would be able to enforce them? Really? Does this not show that despite gun control laws people wind up with guns anyway? Deadly ones? What makes the US more able to deal with it? Is not the war of the Federales against the cartels partly a war to control them and disarm them?
Where is the discussion on mental health? Where is the discussion on non-violence? Where is the discussion on responsible parenting? Its drowned out because those things aren't contentious enough get politicians elected and require sincere change that has to come from ourselves. The gun control debate is a ruse, it will accomplish nothing to prevent these shootings just as it did nothing to prevent violence in Mexico.
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Bob D'A
Trad climber
Taos, NM
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Driving back to Copper Canyon in two weeks, can't wait. Chicken sh#t Americans, more guns than they know what to do with and are still afraid of their own shadow.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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That's exactly what I am saying Coz, though I disagree with your assessment of the violence in Mexico. I think there is something to be learned in Mexico.
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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Heading to DF in May. I've made probably 20 trips all over Mexico.
No problems yet...
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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pick out the gringo
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ruppell
climber
|
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pick out the gringo
That guy on the cross in the background?
Do I win a prize?
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
|
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the One on the cross does not look Hispanic.
whoops
but He doesn't look gringo either
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S.Leeper
Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
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ok there were 2 gringos in the picture.
just a few of the mexicans i love:
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
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Hah^ good one.
I guess if you are Mormon he would be a gringo. I think I am partly a little jealous of everyone living it up and climbing long routes in Potrero. Back to work.
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stilltrying
Trad climber
washington indiana
|
|
Always disappointed to see how threads become so personal. I have only climbed in PC twice. Once on my 56th bday and again on my 58th bday. Great place and fun. On the 2nd trip while waiting for Magic Ed to pick us up two military looking vehicles with about a dozen people in each, fully dressed in ninja type clothes (faces covered) and obviously loaded for Bear with weapons passed thru the Airport in Monterrey. Ed said like 50 SUV/Big Truck type vehicles had been jacked in recent weeks. Also said Drug type activity had increased in the Monterrey area. Folks at the airport were not very friendly and I got hassled big time at the airport over carabiners and small climbing gear in a small pack (no problem coming in), Searched 3 times. The people in charge spoke no English (or did not want to) and were rude to say the least. So trip #1 - not much sign of trouble, trip #2 drugs issues and cartel activity getting a little closer but no worries as it is Monterry and now apparently activity in Hildago. Guess I.m stupid, racist or something but seems like a pattern to me. Comparing people who torture, decapitate, multilate, etc. for personal gain or revenge to a sick boy and a sadly mistaken Mother to them is very bad logic. True there is danger everywhere, East St. Louis, Harlem, L.A. etc. etc. I avoid those just like I will avoid PC now. Going where there are folks who don't want you is ill advised. Really sad all these comments about us white folks. We have a lot of Hispanics here in my little town in Southern Indiana, probably a lot of them illegal,we are nice to them, some of my family teaches the young kids, speakes highly of their hard working parents and how neat the kids are. Makes her job challenging as most of the parents only speak Spanish. But we spend our resources and do what is necessary. My son adopted an African American child at birth ( is that still an acceptable term) and he is the light of our lives. Seems to me us white folks (most of us) are doing just fine in the treatment of other ethnic groups. So I just keep my fingers crossed that things don't decide to jump 2 more miles down the road. I would imagine that these vicious killers won't take race into consideration - only color that matters to them is green.
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ruppell
climber
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stilltrying
I won't bother to tell you that you seem like a bit of a hypocrite. You start off with saying:
Always disappointed to see how threads become so personal.
Then you launch into that rambling post? Learn sentence structure, will you? Don't take it personally though.
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stilltrying
Trad climber
washington indiana
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Man Ruppell, what are you a combo Dr. Phil and English teacher, I am impressed. Anyway, the point was it seems a bit risky to go to PC right now and white folks are no more racist than others, Short enough ?
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ruppell
climber
|
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stillyoung
I'm neither. lol It's was just hard to read.
I've spent more time in Potrero than most here I can assure you. I haven't been down there in a few years but it has nothing to do with the current situation there. I'd go down this month in a heartbeat if I could find the money to do it with. So, for me at least, that risk would be worth the reward. As far as racism goes, it exists everywhere. It sucks, for sure, and if you can figure out a way to stop it post up. lol
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
|
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+ 1 for Manny
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ruppell
climber
|
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Me too, plenty of money but just no time. Temps are probably perfect right now!!
So I've heard. lol Thanks for Thunderkiss man. One of the best, most underdone lines in the Potrero. If we ever meet up you have to tell me about Love Removal Machine as well. Actually, I have the time, wanna float me a loan. lol
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ruppell
climber
|
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Nice. It had a few more bolts when I did it for the first time. Seems bolts are popping up down there pretty often. I heard that Jeff gave the OK to add them so it's all good if that's true. Steel Pulse grew 6 more bolts a few years ago. Makes access to the Bronco Bowl a little less heady. lol You realize we're about to turn this into a climbing thread. Keep it up.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
|
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Well just to keep some sense of proportion
According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) 32,885 people died in traffic crashes in 2010 in the United States (latest figures available), including an estimated 10,228 people who died in drunk driving crashes, accounting for 31% of all traffic deaths last year.
If you're going to San Francisco, be sure to take the train.
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pat
Trad climber
estes park
|
|
People have been mentioning Sandy.
http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-04-09/world/35262019_1_drug-violence-mexican-drug-cartels-ciudad-juarez
"In 2009, the last year for which there is data, 1,180 children were killed, half in shootings.
Recent, sensational killings of children — shot in a car seat, dumped in a field with a bullet in the head, killed as their grandmothers cradled them — have shocked Mexicans and shaken their faith that family is sacred, even to the criminal gangs."
Just because you didn't see it on your visit to Mexico doesn't mean it didn't happen.
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ruppell
climber
|
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Stories would indeed be welcome.
Celestial is on of those routes that you look and and go "HOLY SH!TE. It goes out that?"
My first trip down there in 2005 I met up with a guy who wanted to go do Fit for Life. I'd never been up into the Bronco Bowl. Steep climbing at the time was a weakness of mine and I figured those two routes would be good for me. So the next day we get the Potrero alpine start. That's noon for those of you who haven't been done there. We arrive at the base and start flaking the rope. My partner, who was a much better climber than I, INSISTS that I take the first pitch. At 11a a it's not technically that hard but it is long and a tiny bit runout. At the time it only sported 5 bolts in it's 150 feet. So I grab the draws and tie in. A remember getting to the crux and looking down about 15 feet at the last bolt and having a pretty good laugh. I finished the pitch and belayed my partner up. Turns out he had been up to the Bronco Bowl a few times but had never lead Steel Pulse. I guess runout face climbing was a weakness of his.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
|
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How about bolting that well?
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Anastasia
climber
Home
|
|
Stilltrying says it best.
"...only color that matters to them is green."
That's the bottom line. Most of the problems in Mexico is just that. It needs to redo the way it allows business to function, make it more of a free market, capitalistic, less open to local corruption and wham! They have the skills, the desires and the resources to compete. Do that and I bet half the problems over there will disappear. Once they can chase the dream, the drug world wouldn't be so attractive. Right now because there is so little opportunity, drug smuggling looks real good.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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That's the bottom line. Most of the problems in Mexico is just that. It needs to redo the way it allows business to function, make it more of a free market, capitalistic, less open to local corruption and wham! They have the skills, the desires and the resources to compete. Do that and I bet half the problems over there will disappear. Once they can chase the dream, the drug world wouldn't be so attractive. Right now because there is so little opportunity, drug smuggling looks real good.
Gosh Damnit!!! Do I need to run for f*#king President!!!
I have been advocating a policy like this for years on this forum. Bring manufacturing from Asia to Mexico and South America. You know what you get???
1. Less illegal immigration
2. Less transportation costs for goods.
3. More prosperity in Mexico, and less corruption, and less drug trafficking.
Don't make me come down there, Mexico!!!
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Truthdweller
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
You ex - military Hank?
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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It needs to redo the way it allows business to function, make it more of a free market, capitalistic, less open to local corruption and wham! They have the skills, the desires and the resources to compete. Do that and I bet half the problems over there will disappear.
Yes, maybe, but reducing corruption is one of the primary cruxes for all developing countries trying to increase prosperity amongst its citizens. It is much more difficult and complex than simply changing laws or policy. Once corruption has gained traction in a society, people lose faith and become jaded towards its political and economic system. The people engaging in corruption have a strong vested interest in the status quo, and are generally resistant to positive change.
If it were as simple as changing the way government allows business to function, then you can be sure that half of the problems (or more) for the entire Third World would disappear.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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The manufacturing went to Mexico for a while. Remember the maquiadoras ? Capital moved on.
It needs to be gov't subsidized. Yes, I said it.....
And Yeah, I think Hank is former mil.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
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Ex-scout member : I would never allow my children to join that backwards bumfuct organization.
DMT
I hear ya, the Boy Scouts of America is nothing but a bad influence on boys.
They should be banned for their homophobic ideas. Gays are a better role model for humanity than those BSA as#@&%es!
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canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
|
|
I was watching some TV documentary yesterday about the cartels, and they were interviewing a "hitman" for the cartel in Sinaloa. He said he'd killed 15 people so far. They asked him how much, and he said $200 each (only in pesos). The interviewer mentioned that's not much and he replied "here, it is plenty". So if you have kids who are willing to become hit men for only $200 I don't think there is ANYTHING that will improve the situation.
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deschamps
Trad climber
Out and about
|
|
I don't think there is ANYTHING that will improve the situation.
Eliminating demand would immediately improve the situation.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
|
|
Eliminating demand would immediately improve the situation.
Yep.
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John Duffield
Mountain climber
New York
|
|
In antiquity, IIRC, tossing bodies in the well, was a way to punish the larger public of the area. No one will ever drink from a well - from which dead have been pulled out - again. In antiquity, that could doom a town.
Can't find much on the interwebs to support it, but google offers:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2230441/Archaeologists-stumble-Neolithic-murder-mystery-finding-remains-teenage-girl-older-man-ancient-well.html#axzz2JyUhRg6j
Archaeologists from Israel say they have have stumbled onto a Neolithic murder mystery after two bodies were found dumped in a well dating back 8,500 years.
Researchers from the Israel Antiquities Authority unearthed the ancient well in the Jezreel Valley, south-west of Nazareth, after it was discovered by road maintenance workers.
But they have no idea how the skeletal remains of a 19-year-old girl and an older man came to be dumped deep down the 26ft well, and suggest that it may be a case of murder
'What is clear is that after these unknown individuals fell into the well it was no longer used,' said Yotam Tepper, the archaeologist in charge of the dig.
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Anastasia
climber
Home
|
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Musicians are usually just a bunch of womanizers and that's about it. Really, extremely sad. :(
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
|
|
canyoncat - that's how it works, kids are used as hitmen in Colombia too. They start out as neglected or homeless children, which is a widespread social problem. It's partly a result of the war, which created millions of displaced people and broke up families. The participants in the fighting were generally men, and their numbers got reduced, leaving orphans. Another thing is that rural Colombians don't formally marry as a rule, and the father sometimes just walks off. If there is an extended family, that's one thing, but many millions of them are displaced and that's not an option. There's also just a lot of bad parents. For whatever reason, there's a lot of kids down there living on the streets or ignored at home and on the streets all the time anyway. The paramilitaries and guerrillas use them as lookouts and pay them, giving 8 or 10 year old homeless kids the best opportunity they've ever had. Eventually they graduate to a certain age and are given a gun, and a sense of power few 12 year olds would have. Since they come from poor displaced communities, where no one paints their house because its too expensive, its an attractive option, and this is very prevalent and the way the armed groups have recruited for years. (Freddy Rendon Herrera was just convicted of this, recruitment of minors, for about 150 teenagers under his command)
About 3 years ago, there was a guy in a wheelchair who used to hang out in front of a particular store a lot, was either a lookout, or suspected of being one, since a young boy of about 10 years ran up and just shot and killed him in broad daylight. This was about 2 blocks from my office in Apartado. And from my work I know that a large % of the victims of the conflict have been teenagers. The farc like to recruit adolescents so that they can indoctrinate them, which is slightly different. In any event, kids have no fear and will do what they're told, and can be taught to accept it as normal. When they get older they have seen so much and been desensitized.
One last story: an apartment I used to rent was above a fried chicken place like KFC. These guys were up at 5:30 AM to fry all the chicken for the day, and the smell made me feel sick to my stomach, that's how I woke up every day until I moved out. A year later there it is on the news, the same fried chicken restaurant, I am subscribing to a youtube channel of a news station from there. It turns out that one of my neighbors, on the same floor but I didn't recognize him or know him, had decapitated his wife in their kitchen, with a kitchen knife. I can post the link to the news story if desired. I attribute this kind of psycho behavior to things seen or learned at a young age, although I don't know anything about the guy. I guess this could happen anywhere, but the homicide rate there is extremely high. (Ron mentioned MS 13 before, they're from El Salvador and I have the same theory about them.)
A couple of awesome movies from Colombia about Medellin, the capital of our department. The first is called Vendedora de Rosas, its about street children and there is a youtube version with english subtitles. The second is called La Sierra: Muerte en Medellin, that's about the AUC paramilitaries, who turn out to be about 16 years old, and is a really scary documentary. It starts with an older guy who says, "We're in the hands of armed teenagers. That's the problem." A third movie would be "La Gorra' which is just about gang violence. All these movies are in a similar style, that reminds me of Spike Lee.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Part of the corruption problem in Mexico stems from is the centralization of power in Mexico City. More autonomy to the individual states might have reduced the opportunity for corruption to take hold on such a large scale.
That Acapulco story is going to really finish the tourist business off in Mexico.
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ms55401
Trad climber
minneapolis, mn
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think I'll pass on Mexico with my two weeks of vacation this year. I hear that Peru is a more climber-hospitable locale.
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Erik Vance
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Feb 11, 2013 - 02:02pm PT
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I think about 90% of the posts on this thread have no idea what they are talking about and have only heard of Mexico through episodes of Breaking Bad. Really, you guys are worse than Fox News. Which is saying something. Mexico is a climber's paradise, full of amazing people and culture and rock. The crisis in the north deserves our empathy and support, not our ignorant scorn.
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Manny
Social climber
tempe
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Feb 11, 2013 - 02:10pm PT
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Mexico's northern border is under attack. Other states are also battlegrounds though. I posted previously and after reading "El Narco" by Ioan Grillo, I realized it is a complex problem for the whole of the country. There are many sites that will inform and frighten you if you wish to know.
I agree that Mexico is a beautiful and mostly tranquil country. I climb there often and will return. But to have a safe trip you should definitely do some research on the areas you will climb. Potrero is unfortunately in the very heart of the flames.
Latest news shows Kombo Kolombia was targeted because of the war between the Zetas and Gulf Cartel. From Borderland Beat: "In the first instances, the hypothesis was that Kombo Kolombia had been "finished off" by leaders of the Gulf Cartel (CDG) because of its close relationship with rival gangs.
But the most recent investigations are now pointing in a different direction. Versions collected by the authority reported that Los Zetas have reprimanded musicians for playing in bars and clubs operated by the CDG in the metropolitan area. It is what they saw as a betrayal and who paid with their life. Jose Isidro Cruz Villarreal, "El Pichilo" is thought to have been in charge of recruiting Kombo Kolombia for the performance in the municipality of Hidalgo, and would been the leader who led the convoy of gunmen that kidnapped the band."
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DShack
Trad climber
Mexico
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Feb 11, 2013 - 02:45pm PT
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Yes Dear Americans,
If you'd like to solve many of these problems in Mexico, please stop buying the drugs that flow through Mexico. Quite right deschamps.
Then the Mexican people can concentrate on tourism, manufacturing, and other more socially acceptable forms of generating wealth.
Thanks.
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Northern California
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Feb 11, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
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[Deleted]: This is like arguing with a brick wall... Y'all have fun traveling down there.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 11, 2013 - 03:02pm PT
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http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/travelers-advisory-el-potrero-chico-mexico?A=SearchResult&SearchID=1808515&ObjectID=4032917&ObjectType=35
Early on the morning of January 25 at least seven vans and trucks (reports say up to 14) rolled through Colonia Francisco Villa, the neighborhood just outside the gates of Potrero Chico, a popular winter rock-climbing destination in Nuevo Leon, Mexico. The vehicles stopped at a bar called La Carreta, an establishment that borders several climbers’ campgrounds. La Carreta is familiar to many climbers who, like me, have been rendered sleepless by the double bass, accordion and pig squeals of performing Norteño bands. That night, armed assailants got out and proceeded to kidnap members of the Vallenato band Kombo Kolombia. According to a report provided by a member of the band who managed to escape, the musicians were driven around the area for several hours and tortured. Eventually, each was shot in the head. The bodies (at least 12) were thrown in a well near Mina, a small pueblo a few minutes (6 miles) away from the Potrero, and the closest town and access point to the Culo de Gato, a sport-climbing cave.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 11, 2013 - 03:06pm PT
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http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/travelers-advisory-el-potrero-chico-mexico?A=SearchResult&SearchID=1808515&ObjectID=4032917&ObjectType=35
Tactics employed by the cartels have expressly targeted innocent victims completely unconnected to the cartels. The 2011 massacre near San Fernando, Tamaulipas, provides a striking example. According to an interview with a Zeta cartel member published in the Houston Chronicle and another interview with a survivor first published in El Informador, a Mexican newspaper, several public buses were hijacked by cartel members and driven to an isolated ranch called La Joya. The male passengers were given bats, clubs and hammers and told to fight to the death with other victims. The winners of these gladiator-style duels were recruited as killers for the Zetas. The female passengers were removed to a room, raped and beaten, their children taken and tortured. According to the survivor, one bus driver was forced to drive over the elderly and was then executed. Most of the 193 victims (including one U.S. citizen) found in the 47 mass graves had features of "blunt force trauma" consistent with the testimony of the two men.
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 11, 2013 - 04:46pm PT
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This was the 73-person massacre that took place in 2010. Not the 193-person massacre in the same area in 2011
The 72 immigrants were traveling through Tamaulipas to the United States when a convoy of Los Zetas surrounded their vehicles and cut them off the road.[48] Then, they were forced to get out of their vehicles, and the gunmen warned them that they were members of Los Zetas. They were taken to warehouse inside a ranch, where one by one, the 72 immigrants were put on their knees and placed against a wall. They were told to remain with their knees on the ground, and then they were shot, one by one, in the back of the head.[48] There was one survivor—an Ecuadorian—who was shot in the neck and faked his death till the perpetrators left the area.[49] He then traveled more than 22 kilometers until he reached a military checkpoint where he asked the Mexican marines for help, and notified them of the area where the massacre had occurred.[50] The man was placed under the protection of federal authorities.[51]
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Larryc206
Gym climber
Santa Cruz, CA
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Feb 11, 2013 - 05:17pm PT
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The Mexican drug traffic won't be eliminated until all the U. S. A. addicts give up their drug habits.
Of course, one way (which I do not advocate) to reduce the excessive amounts of money the Mexican drug lords receive would be for the U. S. to rescind the current prohibition on the use of drugs here in the U. S.
Mexican authorities are always pleading for us to reduce the demand here in the U. S. I don't think mere education about the evils of drugs will do it.
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KRS-Grun
Trad climber
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Feb 11, 2013 - 05:54pm PT
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New cave found near Monterrey. We are have bolted two lines so far. Just found it last week. It may be dangerous in Mexico but there sure are a lot of tufas.
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Huecool
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Feb 11, 2013 - 06:34pm PT
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Born and raised in El Paso I've lived near the Mexican border most of my life. IMHO the US should annex Mexico and begin the integration into statehood. This would solidify the US power on this corner of the globe AND ultimately create a peaceful and economically productive environment. I'm sure Canada would like to join the US too (or so I've heard from some of them).
Squint you eyes a little bit and think about it. From the polar cap to the isthmus, all USA, free for us climbers (and workers) to travel about and flourish in! Viva USA!
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Feb 11, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
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Mexico is right here in California....50% of the local school enrollment is Hispanic and many of the local jobs are held by undocumneted workers....I knew this local canadian that got deported because he didn't have his papers...Go figure...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 11, 2013 - 08:17pm PT
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But if the US annexed Mexico and Canada, what would you guys do with all the enfranchised socialists and Mexicans ?
Send them to Texas?
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 11, 2013 - 08:49pm PT
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Isn't that considered cruel and unusual punishment?
For the Mexicans it would be.
So we won't require them to to go Texas.
We'll just offer free land to those who want to move there.
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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Feb 11, 2013 - 09:04pm PT
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New cave looks nice. Cartels probably too lazy to hike to the base there.
Then again, would be an easy place to dispose of peeps.
Have some fun down there. Be vigilant.
Still sticking local until we can afford to go to Greece or Thailand. Warm, inexpensive, and pretty darn safe(it appears)
Jonathon
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Magic Ed
Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
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Feb 11, 2013 - 10:02pm PT
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What?? You didn't hear about those climbers who were attacked and beaten by a whole village in Peru for not handing over to them their passports?
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gallo
Big Wall climber
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Feb 12, 2013 - 12:42am PT
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Rock and ice staff.
Duane Raleigh:
Your article is very sensacionalist ( aka Tabloid).
you pick carefully a single incident and some general statistical data and rush to write this down out of context, inducing the reader to panic without a point of reference. of the real situation and most important:
DAMAGING THE IMAGE OF AN ENTIRE CLIMBING COMMUNITY.
I was last winter in Potrero for a couple of months and things haven't change much since my last visit.
In the last years there are at least a couple hundreds of climbers per season who stay for several weeks at the area without recalling a single notorious incident and the locals (the good and the bad ones) naturally knows who are all this foreing people.
I will notice that you must exercise common sense visiting potrero like you will do in some other out of states adventorous climbing areas like south america or even europe.
Acurate, sencible information is crucial to succed as a climber.
As a columnist of this magazine you owe to the readers a sound judgement
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gallo
Big Wall climber
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Feb 12, 2013 - 12:49am PT
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TO THE ROCK AND ICE STAFF:
Im just simple a appalled to keep finding this article everywhere; and now to to find out how you decide to keep your posture and the way you present the the facts.
everything thath you stated about mexico in your answer to our posts is true.
IT IS THE WAY THAT YOU PRESENT THE FACTS THAT FALL ON THE SENSATIONALISM.
Again: there is a statistical disproportion of the real... situation in Potrero and the gross numbers (national averages) you are using to ilustrate your point.
As I said before YOU ARE DAMAGING WITH YOUR LACK OF ACCURACY THE IMAGE OF AN ENTIRE CLIMBING COMMUNITY FOR YEARS TO COME.
As a journalist you owe your readers and the People who open in the past their doors to you in potrero an accurate balanced information.
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karodrinker
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Feb 12, 2013 - 12:58am PT
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Gallo,
I can understand your point, but we are talking about chopped up humans here. Climbing is important, but not being chopped up is more important.
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Magic Ed
Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
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Feb 12, 2013 - 10:58am PT
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In spite of this incident everything here is tranquilo. I still feel as safe here as I would going to a movie theatre in Colorado.
Nobody panicked, nobody fled: climbers are still arriving and leaving by land and air. The weather is fabulous and there's lots of big new routes being bolted and climbed.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Feb 12, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
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I still feel as safe here as I would going to a movie theatre in Colorado.
That (un)safe?
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AE
climber
Boulder, CO
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Feb 13, 2013 - 11:10pm PT
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Sometimes climbers don't seem so bright.
Guess who doesn't give a sh#t if you onsite 12d - or dress like a dirtbag - if you likely flew down to their turf, just to climb a lousy piece of stone, you, too, just might be . . . a gringo, de facto rich by any Mexican criteria. And practically worthy of torture and a bullet.
There is a universe of wrong-headed logic that will soon show up here, when people figure out too late that legalizing pot = streamlining the conduit for Cartels to fix the supply side. It will NOT solve the crime problem at all, just as it has NOT in Oregon, California, etc.
No easy answers, except on principle climbers need to be avoiding/boycotting that area; it will only be a matter of time before someone you actually know gets the machete treatment, and your buds certainly can't help you, or say you weren't given fair warning.
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MisterE
Social climber
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Feb 13, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
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I still feel as safe here as I would going to a movie theatre in Colorado.
Now THAT was as succinct as it gets. Thanks, Ed.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Feb 14, 2013 - 08:48am PT
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holyshootdude
Social climber
santacruz mountains
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Feb 14, 2013 - 12:01pm PT
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The most dangerous thing For westerners in Mexico is the heart of the Mexican people,I've been more in danger in Kentucky ,
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 14, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
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zBrown, I just looked up Colombian statistics to see how they compare with what you have. At the height of the Pablo Escobar days in 1991, Medellin had 381 homicides per 100,000 habitants. Its dropped now, by 2009 it was down to about 100 per 100,000. However, that's just Medellin. Where we are in Apartado, it's a lot worse, with about 10% of the population murdered over the last two decades. However, the local statistics are just estimates since so many people just disappeared and were buried in mass graves.
holyshootdude, in Colombia the tourism ads say, "the only danger is that you won't want to leave." Could change it to say, "the main danger is that you'll just disappear."
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Feb 14, 2013 - 02:31pm PT
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With all due respect I would take any statistics from S America with more
than a grain of salt. A lot more.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 14, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
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The Colombian stats include reported murders. For each one, the person went to the police at least. That means its very likely true since it's a crime to make this stuff up. They are accurate in that respect, but many murders are not reported, since people fear the police, and for good reason. The numbers are generally underreported. However, with the war crimes tribunal going on, and the possibility of compensation for victims, people are coming forward. Anyway, I don't think its inaccurate to say that the murder rate was about 10 times higher than what they're seeing in Mexico.
By the way, the movie el Cartel de los Sapos was worth watching. For a shoot-em-up crime movie, it held my interest, mainly because its so accurate in depicting the Colombian culture. The word "sapo" means informant in Colombia (toad). Contrary to popular belief, these guys always rat each other out at every opportunity.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Feb 14, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
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With all due respect I would take any statistics from S America with more
than a grain of salt. A lot more.
Yep. I'm not up to the task but a serial pass through the numbers, say from 2000 to 2012 would be an interesting exercise.
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cliffmama
Trad climber
Gunks
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Feb 15, 2013 - 12:49am PT
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Hey ZBrown,
A friend told me I should read this thread because I'm about to leave for Potrero Chico, but I was surprised to see this photo in the thread. I took that photo - I'm the asian (but not Vietnamese) tourist with the camera so I'm not in the shot. Did you pull this from my blog at http://cliffmama.com/blog/missing-potrero-chico-mexico/
I realize my friends are concerned, but I have to admit that I'm getting tired of the daily notes from people saying "did you hear this? did you read about that? You're crazy! Too dangerous! Your children need you!" and making the assumption that I'm not going to survive my trip. Wish me well, think what you want and keep it to yourself, but please don't keep telling me I'm going to die, I think it's pretty rude. We're going to climb in the day, and lay low at night. Just like as with climbing, we analyze the situation, weigh the risks and choose our actions. This will be my 9th trip there. I'll be in the Mexican sunshine by lunchtime on Saturday.
I have never been to portrero chico and am not anticipating a trip nearfuturewise, so I poked around a little and did find some photographic evidence of Vietnamese tourists, alive no less.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Feb 15, 2013 - 01:05am PT
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pelut espania
Big Wall climber
Espania
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Feb 22, 2013 - 03:24pm PT
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" They are Mexicanos and not the cultured Spanish gentlemans"
That is f*#king hilarious...the same spanish that wiped out most natives in the Americas without blinking an eye.
Amigo! American Dogs did the Mexican wrongs not the gentlemans of Espania! tu loco man! We are gentlemans and love all peoples. Viva Espania!
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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Feb 23, 2013 - 12:44pm PT
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Zbrown's link:
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Feb 25, 2013 - 10:26pm PT
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yes cliffmama - I found the photo on your blog and hot linked to it
i hope you're not offended in any way
on second viewing not many of those pictured appear to be Vietnamese
is it dangerous in Mexico? - statistically definitely
is it too dangerous to visit and/or climb at Portero chico? Probably not.
http://cliffmama.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/partying-posada-potrero-chico.jpg
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Mexico City, D.F.
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For anyone interested in the Ayotzinapa massacre, the Intercept (Glen Greenwald's project) did a huge piece of investigative journalism. Unfortunately, it doesnt look like this crime will be solved anytime soon.
Ghosts of Iguala
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Heyzeus
climber
Hollywood,Ca
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Don Paul, amazing article, thanks for posting.
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