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bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:04pm PT
Just in case I was not clear regarding the OP and the title of this thread, there was nothing "serious" about the original boob thread. You f*#king morons must live under rocks to think for a second that there was any child porn in that thread. Were some of the women "smaller" and younger looking than others? Yes. But to equate that with the exploitation of a minor and child porn is ludicrous. What is "serious" here is the need for you to get a life!

Yep. Exactly how I feel although I attempted to be somewhat less visceral. +1,000.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:14pm PT
Ghost,

You assume the natural order is about slavery. It's not. It's the way we are made and what we truly desire from the opposite sex in marriage.

Read the full article on Sex and the Bible. The New Covenant (NT) further clarifies it. It's a beautiful thing and what both men and women truly want. Woman do have a desire toward their husbands. They do want to be loved and cared for, like Christ loves the Church. Men love to love their wife, and they do cleave to them, love to care for them and protect them. The woman is a foundation that a man needs. Without that foundation many men feel lost. It's a wonderful balance. It's not slavery at all.

http://www.joebeam.com/sexandbible.htm
Captain...or Skully

climber
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:18pm PT
Yup. We're gonna die fer sure.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:24pm PT
It's not slavery at all

So then the part in Genesis 3:16 that says "Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you,” was just a misprint? What they meant to say was "...and he shall drool over you," but the dude doing the typesetting was careless and somehow it came out "...and he shall rule over you?"

That seems pretty clear to me. "He shall rule over you" is pretty clearly "Wife is a slave."

If you want to live in a world where men "rule over" their wives, that's great. But it's not the world that most people want to live in.
nature

climber
Boulder, CO
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:38pm PT
Ghost+1



and you'd think by now they'd figure out how to make a more shapely silicon bag. WTF?
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jan 23, 2013 - 11:42pm PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:21am PT
Ghost,

I already told you, you can't understand the OT without the NT. What you think is enslavement isn't. It's a battle of the sexes for sure, but there is a way out of this dilemma ...

Also the Bible was written in Hebrew not English. The Hebrew is rich with deep meaning. Best to compare many translations and look at the original Hebrew word or words.

This is a very good article that shows a way out of the battle ...

A true Christian marriage knows this and knows the NT ideal for marriage. It's not enslavement.



http://www.quodlibet.net/articles/parker-women.shtml

"Third, the description in this passage of the future relationship between Adam and Eve is about ‘alienation and conflict’ (Woolvard & Zuck, c. 1983–c. 1985). ‘The marriage ordinance continues, but is frustrated by the battle of the sexes.’ (Whitlock & Sproul, 1997) The whole message of the New Testament is one of reconciliation and unity, including those of the marriage relationship. To understand the consequences of Adam and Eve’s sin, in respect to their relationship with each other, as a command of God, would mean that this dimension of human relationships would be excluded from the gospel of Jesus Christ. As Richards (1997) points out, ‘Male dominance in the family is a consequence of sin. Why perpetuate it in the Christian home?’ Perry Yoder (1975) makes a similar point:

... while [Genesis] chapter 3 serves as an explanation for the less than ideal state of affairs that may now exist, it does not condone or pardon it. On the contrary, concessions or inadequate realizations of God’s will in terms of creation are to be challenged. (pp. 10–11 cited in Swartley 1983, p. 157)
If we persist in perpetuating these distorted types of relationships which are the result of the Fall, it is a clear message that we want to avoid allowing the gospel to teach us the proper Christian relationship between men and women.

Fourth, even if it is insisted by some that all of these are curses imposed by God, God immediately institutes a plan to reverse these curses. Apart from the implicit promises of a Saviour in verse 15, Abram is promised that all the nations of the earth will be blessed (the opposite of a curse!) through him (12:3).

We see the ultimate fulfilment and reversal of these consequence with the arrival of Christ. In Romans 5:21, Paul celebrates God’s wonderful kindness which rules instead of sin and the death it brought. As a result, sin’s power is broken (Rom. 6:1ff.) and the consequences of sin that we suffer begin to be undermined until they are completely eradicated at the Second Coming of Christ.

Whereas Genesis speaks of the husband ruling the wife, Paul commands mutual submission as the principle of all relationships in the Christian community, including marriage: ‘...you will submit to one another out of reverence for Christ’ (Eph. 5:21, NLT). Some argue that, in the following verses, Paul explicitly requires women to submit to their husbands and that the man is to rule her. However, it is essential to read the subsequent verses within the framework of the mutual submission of verse 21. In this verse, Paul makes a principle explicit using the term ‘mutual submission’. If we go on and make the specific applications that Paul makes deny this explicit principle, then we are twisting the Scripture to suit our own agendas. Whatever Paul has advised in the following verses must be seen as the application of the principle of mutual submission in the context of Paul’s time.

The contrast between the old and the new is clearly articulated by Redmacher (1997):

The word desire [in Genesis 3:16] can also mean "an attempt to usurp or control" as in [Genesis] 4:7. We can paraphrase the last two lines of this verse this way: "You will now have a tendency to dominate your husband, and he will have the tendency to act as a tyrant over you." The battle of the sexes has begun. Each strives for control and neither lives in the best interest of the other (see Phil. 2:3, 4). The antidote is in the restoration of mutual respect and dignity through Jesus Christ (see Eph. 5:21–33).
The motivation for this mutual respect is reverence for Christ (Eph. 5:21). Christ makes all the difference in relationships, including those between male and female, because ‘[t]here is no longer ... male or female. For you are all Christians—you are one in Christ Jesus.’ (Gal. 3:28, nlt) The fact that Paul makes reverence for Christ the centre of relationships, resulting in mutual submission, means the evil of the husband ruling the wife is reversed. Evans (1983) summarises the centrality of Christ in restoring our broken relationships: ‘It is only ‘in Christ’ that the broken relationship between man and woman, as that between God and Man, can fully and permanently be restored’ (p. 21).

The model for Christian relationships is most clearly and extensively articulated in Ephesians 5–6. We need to listen carefully to these passages of Scripture, for they help us to keep the consequences of Genesis in perspective. Fraser & Fraser (1975) summarise the difference that Jesus’ message makes to the relationship between husband and wife:

What was lost in the fall, expressed in Genesis 3:16 as the wife’s loss of equality in a functional subordination to her husband, Jesus intends to restore. The curse is rescinded by grace, and she is placed on the same level as her husband that she might be joint-heir with him in the responsibilities and grace of life (1 Peter 3:7).... The husband and wife are to be one in love and mutual subjection to each other. It would be difficult to find any norm for marriage as permanently threatening to all traditional marriage structures as that! (p. 18 cited in Swartley 1983, p. 265)
Christ came to reverse the consequences of the Fall. This means that we must stop using Genesis 3:16 to legitimate male dominance and tyranny over women, even if this is legitimised by saying that it is done in love. It is for freedom that Christ has set us free! Women should not allow men to place them back under the yoke that Christ has come to remove (Galatians 5:1).

The heart of the matter

Surely it has to be asked: Why is it that men (in particular) are so keen to argue that women should be submissive? If God has identified the tendency to rule as part of the consequences of sin, then we surely should ask ourselves whether, at the heart of the traditional interpretations of the Genesis story is a lust for power and domination. Power is seductive and easy to legitimate with religious arguments. But if Christ is our model for all of life, then we have no greater reason for an attitude of service and submission by both people in a marriage. It is in this way that marriages can witness to the radical change that has come with the arrival of Jesus Christ."
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:24am PT
Thanks, Ghost, now you've set him off.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:26am PT
+5
Jennie!!!!
slayton

Trad climber
Here and There
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:40am PT
Klimmer, you can't understand the OT or the NT without understanding that it was conceived of and written quite some time ago in a world incredibly different culturally from our own. You can take those words from the Bible and try to defend them as something sacrosanct by twisting them to your own ideal in this culture and this time but it doesn't change their meaning.
bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:41am PT
Ah, I see Klimmer has arrived with his standard-issue 5,000 word cut-n-pastes that we all scroll right through without so much as a glance. Just a matter of time before Delusionsmeller chimes in.
MisterE

Social climber
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:44am PT
delusionsmeller

POW! The American Legend scores a direct hit.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:46am PT
It's about time you were SERIOUS, Locker!!!
ncrockclimber

climber
The Desert Oven
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:46am PT
For some reason I think that this video is an appropriate commentary for this "serious matter."

bvb

Social climber
flagstaff arizona
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:48am PT
I was serious once. I met this guy named Roebuck and we started a business. Great catalog, we sold a lot of schwag.

Ba-Dump!
locker

Social climber
state of Kumbaya...
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:49am PT


"It's about time you were SERIOUS, Locker!!!"...

Something you NEVER knew about me...














































I am a serious man, when it comes to serious matters...

MisterE

Social climber
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:50am PT
Wow, what a revelation! Klimmer and GraniteClimber agree on something!

I'm so shocked.


Yawn.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:52am PT
I am a serious man, when it comes to serious matters...


"And that would be...?"
Credit: Reilly
WyoRockMan

Trad climber
Flank of the Bighorns
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:52am PT
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Jan 24, 2013 - 12:53am PT
The word of G-d does indeed cut to the marrow like a two edged sword. Some can take it and some can't, but it will never go away.

The Heavens and the Earth will pass away but his word is forever, eternal.

The original intent was to show sex in marriage, good sex, great sex is of G-d. Also G-d does build into men and women a strong desire for the other sex. That's of G-d also. The word of G-d calls that " natural affection."
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