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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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busman...If you were agreeing with my first post, you missed the sarcasm.
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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Mellisa,
how many times have you climbed at Squamish? Have you done The Grand? It is arrogance and ... to talk about things that you have no clue about. Please give us a break with your sarcasm. I respect you from your posts, so please do yourself a favor and do not blindly follow the bone heads and understand that (you said it at least a couple of times) every area has its own ethics. Squamish is a proud trad area...
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bigwalling
climber
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"Thank God most of these chopping heroes cannot get their ass up the Grand Wall!"
HAHAHAHAHA! I sure can't get my ass up it. But it looks so great. Squamish has many proud pitchs! There is some 11d slab pitch with only 3 bolts up there. Now that is some freaky climbing.
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Loom
climber
The Sierra or Merdead
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The bolts are repulsive.
But. . .
I still think there is a lot of confusion about style vs. ethics. Minerals can head the corners on WoEML, why doesn't he chop the dowls next to them?
If those bolts (in the link) were put up on the FA, I would like to know how long ago. IMNSHO, if those bolts were placed pre-bong (doesn't look like it), they are ethically and stylistically acceptable; if they were put in before big cams they are ok ethically and of slander-worthy style; if they were placed after big cams were relatively common then it's an ethical gray area of either atrocious style or an ethical blunder (I dunno, it's not as bad as chipping).
If they were added after the FA then (of course) chop those disgusting warts! But an FA gets a lot more leeway; unless it's really bad, like chipping, we call it bad style and slander those mofos so they'll change their ways or sell their gear and take up badminton.
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Gum Bee
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Hey Hardman
You & I both agree that
Sport climbing is neither.
See ya at the bar
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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Loom,
if you are talking about the link Hardman posted, those bolts are replacements. At the time the Grand was done, there was no wide protection availabe (that crack takes #4 Camalots), and there was a 1/4 bolt ladder to the right of today's bolt line (the holes are still visible). Whoever replaced the bolts (God bless him), seems to have kept the spirit of the FA: bolt ladder, but it was moved closer to the crack so it can be done free at a pumpy 11a. Skip them if you don't like them!
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Wow,
This sure is a "hot topic"!!! Whew!
I NEVER would have thought this would stir so much controversy! I'm amazed that so many climbers can have such different opinions on this subject.
How have we gone so long without EVER discussing ethics/bolting on this forum?
This really opened my eyes. I've seen the light!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Whether you agree with the bolts or not, the situation becomes more clear when you hear the story of how and when they got there. They were aid bolts before the time when folks could aid or free it. Should it have been nailed "excalibur style" with wood? That's just a subject for debate. There are more pictures of that route if you click the right and left buttons on that site.
Werner's recounting of the FA of Cookie Monster explained a lot in the "Cookie Monster" thread, for instance.
That's one of the potential benefits of the First Ascent Registry we are about to launch on Rockclimbing.com. Folks can read the context in which these routes go up long after we, and our second and third hand recollections are gone.
We have redone the proposal to be more about the history and stories about the FA and not ask about chopping or retrobolting.
It looks like there is going to be a place for other folk's experiences of the route, beta and so on, much like the beta section on supertopo.com except worldwide.
here's a link to the new introduction
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32934
Peace
Karl
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yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
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I'm not the King, but I'm the Wiz, and nobody beats me. Nobody!
I must agree though, given the history of atrocities between people and nations and races in the world, past and present, this photo didn't even register. I'm sure that's not what was intended by the thread title, but I expected much worse.
It's a stupid route, but it's probably super fun and you know they're lining up to climb the damn thing. If the route does have history as Karl says, I'm even more inclined to be lenient, although bolting up next to a crack to climb the crack is just stupid. Why not rap down to the top of it? Midgets without cheatersticks, indeed.
Ground up will always be superior, but there will also always be some that slip through the cracks. (Is that a pun?) Squamish has plenty of proud climbing, and this route seems to be serving the Cookie Monster function: keeping the clippers off the good routes.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Pastrami, if you read the whole thread, you'll see where I asked if the bolts were originally placed as aid bolts (which aparently they were). In fact, my intention was to defend how certain closely bolted routes such as those mentioned by freeclimber could had reasnably come into existence. I was just teasing Karl with my first post. For the opinion that I felt busman was attributing to me (that a current practice of bolting cracks is a good thing because of the price of cams) I didn't want to take any sincere ownership of that belief.
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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Hei yo,
that route is not stupid (is one of the best climbs at the grade in N America) and it was done around '53 I think...
Melissa, don't take it personally, nothing against you, just don't twist your mind around bolt issues or you shall get headackes.
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yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
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I stand corrected, now that I've done my research (Proper online forum etiquette: spray first, research second). I'd assumed we were talking about a one pitch climb called perry's layback, the Squamish equivalent of Cookie Monster. As Pastrami says, the route is not stupid. The pitch in question, which comes after a long and fairly fat and sandbag 10b lieback pitch (traditionally protected) and before a 10c undercling pitch (traditionally protected) still falls under my definition of stupid. However, to drag 5 #4 Camalots up there when draws will do...probably more stupid.
FAers didn't have bongs? Bolts are fine with me.
Lazy modern Canadians can't be bothered to place gear from strenuous lieback? Naughty bolts.
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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yo
tell me please who owns 5 #4 Camalots or equivalent? Please lead that pitch without bolts next time when you go up there; it cannot be jammed.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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What a bunch of strutting roosters. Don't y'all have anything better to get all worked up about?
"The Valley is a little world, full of little people"...
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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FA bolts you don't go chop. it would have been nice if when they were no longer safe, and since technology allowed it to be climbed naturally, that the community used some common sense and just subtly removed them all together. The bolts on the Good Book were just as usely, and graciously removed by teh ASCA.
Instead they redrill(more holes in the resource) the holes CLOSER to the crack to facilitate a clip up.
Where have all the real climbers gone?
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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Matt,
you are right, I meant cannot be jammed and still be 11a
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2003 - 04:32pm PT
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which, like someone said before, makes those bolts the equivalent of the bolt ladders on certain popular climbs in YV, where that one pitch would otherwise keep lots of people off that route...
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Matt
climber
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maybe a bit of context will help quel or fan the flames:
the route in question (Grand wall route, Squamish Chief) was first climbed in 1961 by Ed Cooper and Jim Baldwin. Both of them also put up routes on El Cap at about the same time. Ed Cooper in particalur was quite the hard man, there are some impressive photos of him soloing 5.10 in Leavenwrth wearing hiking boots back in the day. I believe he died in an accident in the valley the late 60s or early 70s.
The complete route is ~16 pitches, though most parties today opt for a traverse finish 4 pitches below the top. The first ascent involved some pretty lengthy bolt ladders, some of which are now bypassed (the lower 50m bolt ladder can be avoided by a somewhat runout 5.7, then 5.9 & 10b pitches + 3 aid bolts at the end (merci me + linkup to split pillar), or a much better & more direct 5 pitch 10d (mix of unbolted crack and bolted face climbing). Then come the best pitches of the route, the Split Pillar and Sword (10b & 11a respectively, both unbolted cracks).
Above this is a 15m bolt ladder, or optionally a free variation (12c undercling crack, then 13b bolted slab)
above this, the first ascentionists continued the bolt ladder, quite close to the crack in the photo in question (Perry's Layback). In the 80's, (I'm not sure exactly when) the original bolts were replaced, somewhat closer to the crack, and the pitch recieved the first free ascent. It is generally about #4 camalot size, and trends right at ~45 degrees on a vertical wall. The bolts are close enough to aid on.
Above this is a pitch of 10a-c gear or bolted face depending on the variation, then a 10c undercling crack (no bolts) to reach bellygood ledge. either traverse off the ledge, or traverse left then up the roman chimneys (4p, 11a/d, mostly gear) or right & up the upper black dyke (4p, 10b).
Are the bolts necessary? absolutely not. at the time of the first ascent were they? arguably not. Should they have been replaced, closer to the crack? questionably. Have I ever met anyone who climbed the route & complained about them? no. Can you get to clip them without climbing ~8 pitches of mostly trad up to 11a? only by rapping in from the top.
to (roughly) quote a line from Howie Richardson's Skaha guidebook about a completely unrelated route:
"undeniably desecrated by the line of bolts, but enjoyed by many more of us mere mortals as a result"
anyway, it's a good route, with some history to boot. I generally cringe a bit when I see the bolts beside perry's layback. but I also clip them without much grumbling. Then I usually pump out and fall on them too. maybe if I hadn't wasted so much energy clipping...
matt.
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yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
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What I'm saying, I think, is this:
1. FA bolts don't bother me. Bolted European pleasure cracks do. Which is this?
2. This pitch is an anachronism, coming in the middle of a big wall route, protected mostly by trad pro, not to mention a fair bit of liebacking/underclinging. If you flip ahead a few photos in the original "atrocity" series that started all this, you'll see the same climber sending 10c undercling with his own pro. Why the descrepancy?
3. Artificial improvements that reduce the challenge of a route or pitch are naughty. Werner showed that the Cookie Monster bolts have safety in mind, which is perhaps different. Here it seems that convenience/mass appeal dictates that the pitch is too hard, a mentality that flies in the face of the philosophy of trad.
4. If there are already bolts there, it is stupid to haul up the camalots to protect it.
5. I don't believe any of us are strutting. Except that Karl Baba punk--he's really got issues. (HUMOR!!!! THAT WAS HUMOR!!!!!)
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