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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 5, 2003 - 04:29pm PT
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http://tinyurl.com/dkvs
I didn't link the pic directly because it is bad form to do it without permission.
This is because whenever the Supertopo thread is clicked, it makes a hit
to this guy's site, whereas most folks will only click on the pic once
or twice here and move on.
I think this really only matters when it is a personal homepage
such as this one which might have limited bandwidth/throughput allocated.
Make sense?
Hardman Knott
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2003 - 05:26pm PT
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those damn canadians are threatening our way of life!
they don't seem to share our values!
they over bolt like terrorists!
i say "you are either with us or you are against us!"
maybe coiler and minerals need to get out on the road and do something about that shaiiyte!
(~5.10 sport = 5.11+ (is it really 45 degree?) overhanging off-width/ rattle-y fists)
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Hardman,
You are being elitist and selfish. Without the bolts, only the folks with the money for the pricey big cams and the experience to place them would be able to do the route. Just think of how many more people will be able to enjoy that crack now.
Power (drill) to the people!
(Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
Melissa
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Ben Rumsen
Mountain climber
Sacramento, CA
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Now I'm really starting to dislike the whole sport climbing mentality. Maybe these climbers are just too cheap to buy camming devices.
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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the end draws nearer...
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andy@climbingmoab
Big Wall climber
Denver
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ick, time for a bolt chopping road trip. i'll pitch in a case of beer for whoever cleans that mess up.
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Slab-Dyno
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2003 - 06:38pm PT
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That picture will haunt my dreams forever.
Jimmy
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Bloodynipples
Big Wall climber
The Mountain Room Bar
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I'll contribute beer to the bolt chopping cause.
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bigwalling
climber
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The Grandwall in Squamish. I always wondered why it got bolted too. I believe the guy who bolted it has done F.A. of El Cap too.
But look at Zodiac. All those bolts next to that whide crack above peanut ledge.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I think Beyer chopped all but three of those Zodiac OW bolts.
Buy hey, instead of removing the old 1/4 inch bolts on Wheat Thin, they got replaced!
At least the bolts in the picture are good for something. It looks like you could stand on them and shake out!
;-]
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FTB
Big Wall climber
Near the Vally, CA
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CHOP THEM ALL!!!!!!!!!!!
What a disgrace to the community. I'm a peaceful guy, but, someone should kick the bolter ass.
Later
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bigwalling
climber
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It is on of the few cracks in squamish with bolts. What a shame for Squamish! Squamish does have a 5.13c trad climb. It is 50m and you can only get 5 peices of gear in on the whole thing. I remember the F.A. telling me that the crux is protected by a #2 stopper. So there are some "real" climbers up there. But Perry's Layback(photo) needs to get chopped! I'm not good enough to do the climb though.
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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Someone should post a picture of the bolt ladders on the 5.10 slab pitch of the EButt of MCR (far fewer bolts would still make it a very safe 10c face pitch), and the the 5.11 slab pitch on Freeblast (there are essentially 2 sets of bolts there, one is for slab climbing and the other for yarding on), and then we can see how well "we" all pactice what we preach...
If that thing really is 45 degrees, it ain't no gimmie to lead on gear (though I guess you could still lay it back like that).
-Fc
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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The FAs of EBMC and the Salathe happened at a time when those pitches were beyond the limit of what had been shown to be possible wrt free climbing. Was the ow/layback in HK's pic originally a bolt ladder on an aid climb put up in the pre-wide gear era?
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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It didn't make a difference to the bolts that used to protect the #4 cam sized OW on the Good Book.
I think the fact that those bolts (Yosemite and Squamish examples) all help facilitate much of the traffic those routes see is a big part of their perceived legitimacy.
No question that pitch is a way different pitch w/ no bolts.
I would be bummed to find that climb bolted in the valley, but I don't see the difference. Those bolts are not spaced for free climbing, they are/were meant to be stood on.
-Fc
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fern
climber
Vancouver
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I think Perry Beckham who did the first free ascent of
that pitch in the photo said something like
"Thank God someone bolted it before it was freed!"
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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Thank God most of these chopping heroes cannot get their ass up the Grand Wall! Perry's layback still has remains of the old 1/4 bolts (I assume they are from the FA, they look that old), so it is just replacing the FA's bolts with new stuff. And the 3rd original pitch used to be a bolt ladder, now is a 5.7R, 30 feet in between the bolts
Just keep your frickin' ethics in Yosemite, and leave others alone (so we can have decent climbs when traveling)
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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A midget could aid that route without cams or a cheater stick.
It doesn't matter where you are; bolts next to cracks are lame.
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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ethics schmethics, i say photoshop that picture so the climber is freaking out and the bolts are gone, and then collect some freebeer on your next roadtrip...
Hey Minerals-
SICK EM!
GO GET EM!
DON'T LET EM GET AWAY WITH THAT!
say- you good for another case of beer on this one?
errrr, btw, what ever happened to those bolts you posted about on the LT?
-Fc
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Minerals
Social climber
The Deli
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Woof woof.
I think the bolts are still there. I've heard unconfirmed rumors that bolts were added to the route for the free attempt. Maybe I will have to go back up there and do some more chopping. Speaking of choppoing bolts... how 'bout the Dihedral... how many have been added? How many hangers can I expect to harvest?
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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busman...If you were agreeing with my first post, you missed the sarcasm.
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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Mellisa,
how many times have you climbed at Squamish? Have you done The Grand? It is arrogance and ... to talk about things that you have no clue about. Please give us a break with your sarcasm. I respect you from your posts, so please do yourself a favor and do not blindly follow the bone heads and understand that (you said it at least a couple of times) every area has its own ethics. Squamish is a proud trad area...
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bigwalling
climber
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"Thank God most of these chopping heroes cannot get their ass up the Grand Wall!"
HAHAHAHAHA! I sure can't get my ass up it. But it looks so great. Squamish has many proud pitchs! There is some 11d slab pitch with only 3 bolts up there. Now that is some freaky climbing.
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Loom
climber
The Sierra or Merdead
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The bolts are repulsive.
But. . .
I still think there is a lot of confusion about style vs. ethics. Minerals can head the corners on WoEML, why doesn't he chop the dowls next to them?
If those bolts (in the link) were put up on the FA, I would like to know how long ago. IMNSHO, if those bolts were placed pre-bong (doesn't look like it), they are ethically and stylistically acceptable; if they were put in before big cams they are ok ethically and of slander-worthy style; if they were placed after big cams were relatively common then it's an ethical gray area of either atrocious style or an ethical blunder (I dunno, it's not as bad as chipping).
If they were added after the FA then (of course) chop those disgusting warts! But an FA gets a lot more leeway; unless it's really bad, like chipping, we call it bad style and slander those mofos so they'll change their ways or sell their gear and take up badminton.
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Gum Bee
Trad climber
San Francisco
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Hey Hardman
You & I both agree that
Sport climbing is neither.
See ya at the bar
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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Loom,
if you are talking about the link Hardman posted, those bolts are replacements. At the time the Grand was done, there was no wide protection availabe (that crack takes #4 Camalots), and there was a 1/4 bolt ladder to the right of today's bolt line (the holes are still visible). Whoever replaced the bolts (God bless him), seems to have kept the spirit of the FA: bolt ladder, but it was moved closer to the crack so it can be done free at a pumpy 11a. Skip them if you don't like them!
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BCD
Trad climber
Mammoth Lakes, CA
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Wow,
This sure is a "hot topic"!!! Whew!
I NEVER would have thought this would stir so much controversy! I'm amazed that so many climbers can have such different opinions on this subject.
How have we gone so long without EVER discussing ethics/bolting on this forum?
This really opened my eyes. I've seen the light!
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Whether you agree with the bolts or not, the situation becomes more clear when you hear the story of how and when they got there. They were aid bolts before the time when folks could aid or free it. Should it have been nailed "excalibur style" with wood? That's just a subject for debate. There are more pictures of that route if you click the right and left buttons on that site.
Werner's recounting of the FA of Cookie Monster explained a lot in the "Cookie Monster" thread, for instance.
That's one of the potential benefits of the First Ascent Registry we are about to launch on Rockclimbing.com. Folks can read the context in which these routes go up long after we, and our second and third hand recollections are gone.
We have redone the proposal to be more about the history and stories about the FA and not ask about chopping or retrobolting.
It looks like there is going to be a place for other folk's experiences of the route, beta and so on, much like the beta section on supertopo.com except worldwide.
here's a link to the new introduction
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=32934
Peace
Karl
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yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
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I'm not the King, but I'm the Wiz, and nobody beats me. Nobody!
I must agree though, given the history of atrocities between people and nations and races in the world, past and present, this photo didn't even register. I'm sure that's not what was intended by the thread title, but I expected much worse.
It's a stupid route, but it's probably super fun and you know they're lining up to climb the damn thing. If the route does have history as Karl says, I'm even more inclined to be lenient, although bolting up next to a crack to climb the crack is just stupid. Why not rap down to the top of it? Midgets without cheatersticks, indeed.
Ground up will always be superior, but there will also always be some that slip through the cracks. (Is that a pun?) Squamish has plenty of proud climbing, and this route seems to be serving the Cookie Monster function: keeping the clippers off the good routes.
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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Pastrami, if you read the whole thread, you'll see where I asked if the bolts were originally placed as aid bolts (which aparently they were). In fact, my intention was to defend how certain closely bolted routes such as those mentioned by freeclimber could had reasnably come into existence. I was just teasing Karl with my first post. For the opinion that I felt busman was attributing to me (that a current practice of bolting cracks is a good thing because of the price of cams) I didn't want to take any sincere ownership of that belief.
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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Hei yo,
that route is not stupid (is one of the best climbs at the grade in N America) and it was done around '53 I think...
Melissa, don't take it personally, nothing against you, just don't twist your mind around bolt issues or you shall get headackes.
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yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
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I stand corrected, now that I've done my research (Proper online forum etiquette: spray first, research second). I'd assumed we were talking about a one pitch climb called perry's layback, the Squamish equivalent of Cookie Monster. As Pastrami says, the route is not stupid. The pitch in question, which comes after a long and fairly fat and sandbag 10b lieback pitch (traditionally protected) and before a 10c undercling pitch (traditionally protected) still falls under my definition of stupid. However, to drag 5 #4 Camalots up there when draws will do...probably more stupid.
FAers didn't have bongs? Bolts are fine with me.
Lazy modern Canadians can't be bothered to place gear from strenuous lieback? Naughty bolts.
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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yo
tell me please who owns 5 #4 Camalots or equivalent? Please lead that pitch without bolts next time when you go up there; it cannot be jammed.
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Rhodo-Router
Trad climber
Otto, NC
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What a bunch of strutting roosters. Don't y'all have anything better to get all worked up about?
"The Valley is a little world, full of little people"...
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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FA bolts you don't go chop. it would have been nice if when they were no longer safe, and since technology allowed it to be climbed naturally, that the community used some common sense and just subtly removed them all together. The bolts on the Good Book were just as usely, and graciously removed by teh ASCA.
Instead they redrill(more holes in the resource) the holes CLOSER to the crack to facilitate a clip up.
Where have all the real climbers gone?
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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Matt,
you are right, I meant cannot be jammed and still be 11a
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2003 - 04:32pm PT
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which, like someone said before, makes those bolts the equivalent of the bolt ladders on certain popular climbs in YV, where that one pitch would otherwise keep lots of people off that route...
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Matt
climber
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maybe a bit of context will help quel or fan the flames:
the route in question (Grand wall route, Squamish Chief) was first climbed in 1961 by Ed Cooper and Jim Baldwin. Both of them also put up routes on El Cap at about the same time. Ed Cooper in particalur was quite the hard man, there are some impressive photos of him soloing 5.10 in Leavenwrth wearing hiking boots back in the day. I believe he died in an accident in the valley the late 60s or early 70s.
The complete route is ~16 pitches, though most parties today opt for a traverse finish 4 pitches below the top. The first ascent involved some pretty lengthy bolt ladders, some of which are now bypassed (the lower 50m bolt ladder can be avoided by a somewhat runout 5.7, then 5.9 & 10b pitches + 3 aid bolts at the end (merci me + linkup to split pillar), or a much better & more direct 5 pitch 10d (mix of unbolted crack and bolted face climbing). Then come the best pitches of the route, the Split Pillar and Sword (10b & 11a respectively, both unbolted cracks).
Above this is a 15m bolt ladder, or optionally a free variation (12c undercling crack, then 13b bolted slab)
above this, the first ascentionists continued the bolt ladder, quite close to the crack in the photo in question (Perry's Layback). In the 80's, (I'm not sure exactly when) the original bolts were replaced, somewhat closer to the crack, and the pitch recieved the first free ascent. It is generally about #4 camalot size, and trends right at ~45 degrees on a vertical wall. The bolts are close enough to aid on.
Above this is a pitch of 10a-c gear or bolted face depending on the variation, then a 10c undercling crack (no bolts) to reach bellygood ledge. either traverse off the ledge, or traverse left then up the roman chimneys (4p, 11a/d, mostly gear) or right & up the upper black dyke (4p, 10b).
Are the bolts necessary? absolutely not. at the time of the first ascent were they? arguably not. Should they have been replaced, closer to the crack? questionably. Have I ever met anyone who climbed the route & complained about them? no. Can you get to clip them without climbing ~8 pitches of mostly trad up to 11a? only by rapping in from the top.
to (roughly) quote a line from Howie Richardson's Skaha guidebook about a completely unrelated route:
"undeniably desecrated by the line of bolts, but enjoyed by many more of us mere mortals as a result"
anyway, it's a good route, with some history to boot. I generally cringe a bit when I see the bolts beside perry's layback. but I also clip them without much grumbling. Then I usually pump out and fall on them too. maybe if I hadn't wasted so much energy clipping...
matt.
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yo
Sport climber
Fresno, CA
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What I'm saying, I think, is this:
1. FA bolts don't bother me. Bolted European pleasure cracks do. Which is this?
2. This pitch is an anachronism, coming in the middle of a big wall route, protected mostly by trad pro, not to mention a fair bit of liebacking/underclinging. If you flip ahead a few photos in the original "atrocity" series that started all this, you'll see the same climber sending 10c undercling with his own pro. Why the descrepancy?
3. Artificial improvements that reduce the challenge of a route or pitch are naughty. Werner showed that the Cookie Monster bolts have safety in mind, which is perhaps different. Here it seems that convenience/mass appeal dictates that the pitch is too hard, a mentality that flies in the face of the philosophy of trad.
4. If there are already bolts there, it is stupid to haul up the camalots to protect it.
5. I don't believe any of us are strutting. Except that Karl Baba punk--he's really got issues. (HUMOR!!!! THAT WAS HUMOR!!!!!)
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I think it's kind of ironic that Matt would link those shots of Mark D on the Owl Roof OW. Mark may be a fine climber but he didn't climb the OWL roof. Those shots were posed on aid as a photo op.
Regarding the history of the grand. I hope Fern will forgive me for sharing her excellent post from rec.climbing which shares more details of the FA.
Peace
karl
++++++++++++
The "Grand Wall" is one of those routes with variations for
just about every pitch, some pitches have names, others do
not but the whole collection gets the name since it's the
name of the wall itself. It's most commonly climbed as a
5.11a A0, although a completely free version was
accomplished in 2001 at mid 5.13 , the grade in the oldest
guidebook I have is 5.6 A1 (1968). The first ascent of the
Grand Wall was in 1961 by Jim Baldwin and Ed Cooper (who
subsequently went to Yosemite and put up Dihedral Wall on El
Cap using similar technique and were criticized for being
behind the times for fixing lines and seiging, in Squamish
they get a beer named after them).
Ed Cooper's article can be found here:
http://www.squamishrock.com/report/grand.wall.html
That's 40 years of history between the first adventure, and the
final problem'.
Baldwin and Cooper seemed to like the Diretissima style ...
they started in the middle of the wall and tried to go up in
as straight a line as possible. Lucky for them there are
actually nice features to link between otherwise their bolt
ladder might have been a lot longer than the 160 that they
placed! They nailed the split pillar with blocks of wood and
a 3 pound hammer and found that it expanded enough to drop
the lower blocks out as the next one was nailed. The split
pillar is a slightly less than verticle dihedral. It's no
wonder that when they ran into a similar wide crack leaning
out into almost a roof they decided that bolting would be a
better option than trying the wood blocks again ... I don't
know that that was truly their reasoning, but it seems
logical to me.
The A0 section was until a few years ago a batman haul up an
old hawser, but was replaced with a short bolt ladder. There
recently was some back and forth of a bolt or two lower down
on the Split Pillar or the Sword pitches, placed then
chopped then placed then chopped ... but other than that the
protection bolts have all been around for at least 20 years,
before people even talked about 'sport' climbing. Perry's
lieback was freed in 1982, but the bolts were already there
and were used for protecting the FFA. If somebody is
planning to haul a bunch of #4 Camalots and a crowbar up
there to teach us Canadians a lesson in how lame we are,
just be aware that there is still some loose choss in that
crack and with the base of the Grand Wall being a very
popular area to climb chances are that you will cream
someone when you knock it out.
->f
(by the local of the area Fern, posted on Rec.climbing)
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 7, 2003 - 05:25pm PT
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Just wanted to say that in retrospect, "Atrocity" seems way
out of line -- sorry to anyone I might have offended.
I posted the link before really looking into the circumstances.
Ignorance is not always blissful.
Just think, with one click of the edit button, I could delete
this entire thread, and all blatent evidence of my naivete'...
(moving the trigger finger across the keyboard)
Ahh, I'm savoring the immense power of censorship!
Hardman Knott
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78 busman
Mountain climber
Davis
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Hardman....
Kudo's! I deleted my response (oh! the power of
the mouse!) when I realized that an opinion, no matter
how presented could be taken in the wrong context,
when read by those that have a closed mind... L.L.C.H
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jan 24, 2008 - 01:34pm PT
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Squamish definately has looser ethics than most areas. Hit up the Kakodemon (sp?) boulder. There is a 5.13 sport "route" that is all chiseled finger pockets. Up by the Star Wall there are some boulder problems that are just chiseled finger pockets.
To each his own.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jan 24, 2008 - 01:39pm PT
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Old thread, indeed.
I honestly had no idea what this 5 year old thread was about. It took a few minutes
to remember that the link in the OP was a pic of a bunch of bolts next to a bomber crack.
Anyway, that film looks cool. Any chance of me getting a Foot in Mouth Discount™?
Edit: Moof - I saw that route. I heard it was an "outdoor gym" that was climbable
in the rain, that they would hang a tarp down over it to keep it dry.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 24, 2008 - 01:41pm PT
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"tell me please who owns 5 #4 Camalots or equivalent?"
-doesn't everybody?
--couldn't resist
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jan 24, 2008 - 02:36pm PT
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Pastrami writes: tell me please who owns 5 #4 Camalots or equivalent?
umm.... I do.... and a few of the folks over here: http://www.widefetish.com
I'd like to see the pic, but I think it is gone from the Gallery?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 02:40pm PT
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5 #4 Camalots or equivalent?
I only own one.
You guys are cheaters ...... hee hee
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 02:48pm PT
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Why did they put the bolts on the main wall?
Does this need those bolts?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jan 24, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Hey, that's it!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 24, 2008 - 03:03pm PT
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That does LOOK pretty lame, at least from way over here.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 03:38pm PT
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Not to further scar anyone, but the caption reads:
"After the most strenuous 20 metres of climbing on the entire route, the leader is rewarded with a perfect no hands rest in the chimney.
Climber: Alisdair Buchanan
Photographer: Matthew Buckle"
heh heh.....I'm jus sayin'
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 03:41pm PT
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Right above his helmet is good crack for protection.
Now I "see" that the bolts are "Way homo"
Why did they bolt this?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 24, 2008 - 03:53pm PT
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Werner asks "Why did they bolt this?"
Ed Cooper's still around, you could ask him.
But it would be the wrong question, to the wrong person. The right question is "Why did they rebolt this?" However, in order to understand the answer you would have to have an understanding of the history of both that route and of Squamish climbing in general.
It's easy to look at things (lots of things, not just climbs or pitches on climbs) out of context and say "That's wrong!" But sometimes, after you absorb the context, it is your original response that will be seen as wrong.
I ain't sayin' one way or the other. I've climbed it, and was plenty thankful for the bolts. But I would also love to be able to try to climb it without the bolts.
D
Reality edit: I'd love to be younger and thinner and stronger, so that I could try it without bolts.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 24, 2008 - 04:44pm PT
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There is some history to Perry's Lieback, much of which is already upthread. The story behind the Grand Wall, though, is that from 1975 on, it gradually became more and more of a free climb, with significant variations to the original line. Sort of application of Mark & Max's "As Free as Can Be" philosophy, over two decades. It didn't suddenly become a free climb, and when the last few tiny bits of aid were removed, it was no big deal.
Some of this history isn't well recorded, but I'll try, at least for the lower pitches:
 There are 10 or 11 pitches on the route to the Dance Platform (large ledge) and Bellygood Ledge - an escape ledge. Then another 4 or 5 pitches to the top, the Roman Chimneys.
The route was climbed by Baldwin and Cooper in 1961, and as of the mid 1970s was a well-established 'wall' climb. Mostly aid, a little free.
The first pitch is a 5.10b stem/layback, also called the Flake Route, followed by an easy pitch to the top of the Flake. Many instead climb an adjacent route called Apron Strings, which is two pitches (5.10b, 5.9). It is also possible to hike/scramble to the top of the Flake, and avoid the first two pitches.
The original Grand Wall bolt ladder started just below the top of the Flake, and went in three short pitches to the base of the Split Pillar. It is one of the longest bolt ladders in the world (~60 bolts?), is now rarely climbed (although crossed by some modern routes), and is a recognized historic feature of the park.
Virtually everyone now climbs a face route called Mercy Me, which is left of the bolt ladder, for two pitches (5.8 or 5.9). At the top, a traverse pitch (5.10b, A0 for most) leads to the base of the Pillar. This pitch may first have been done by Dave Loeks and Bill Putnam in 1975 - they were trying to beat Daryl and Eric to the Pillar. The first part of the traverse is on an old aid route called Ten Years After. (Done ten years after the Grand Wall was done. Also a psychedelic band name.) The crux of the traverse used to be protected by nuts and two or three fixed pins, which have been replaced with bolts.
Then the Split Pillar, first freed in 1975 by Eric and Daryl, and graded 5.9, using hexes. (Now 5.10b) There is a lovely cedar tree at the base of the Pillar.
Then the Sword, a 5.10d stem and lieback pitch up a small corner and then face crack, first freed in 1981 (possibly earlier) by Greg and Peter. This led into another bolt ladder, which led in a short pitch to a ledge. Perry's Lieback is a bit left of that bolt ladder - the two converge toward the top. It is very doubtful that Baldwin & Cooper could have climbed the layback crack, free or aid. For some time, the old bolt ladder featured a fixed yachting rope, which the brave could batman up. The rope was tied through the bolt hangers. At some point, the old bolt ladder was removed, and the rope now lives in a bucket in my brother's basement.
Perry did his lieback in 1981. At that time, there was no removeable gear that could have protected it. The biggest camming units were then #4 Friends, Tubechocks were never all that useful, and I don't think Big Brothers had been invented then, or at least weren't much available. The crack was also too wide for bongs, even endways.
Perry was then and still is one of the stronger climbers in B.C. and Canada, and has done lots of climbing elsewhere. He has sound judgment, and isn't known for ethical slackness. I believe the sequence may have been that he added the bolts for the lieback (1/4" Rawls), spaced so they could be used for aid climbing if needed, then later the 'old' bolt ladder was removed. I could be wrong. Eventually Perry's old Rawls were replaced with modern shiny 3/8" bolts. Given Perry's stature in our community, and the prevailing ethos at Squamish (perhaps not as pure as Yosemite), if he thought that was the right thing to do, no one had a problem with it. (A bit like Peter Haan and Jim Bridwell, on Wheat Thin.)
Given that the layback crack diagonals up and right, it would be very hard to place bolts that were both reasonably clippable, but that you couldn't put a foot on.
In 2000 Scott Cosgrove freed something like the old bolt ladder line, removing the last 6 - 8 points of aid on the route. Steep face climbing.
Peter and Greg also freed the last two pitches to Bellygood (the "Flats") in 1981, and much of the upper five pitches.
Most people now free climb the Grand Wall to their limit, and aid anything that's 5.11 or harder. It's recognized as a climb that is within the abilities of those who can lead "easy" 5.11 cracks, and 90%+ can be done free at that level. Few can do it all free, which is 5.13 or so.
Like some routes in Yosemite and elsewhere, the Grand Wall and Perry's Lieback have a lot of history. It is known and accepted that they are what they are. In the modern context, it might be possible to do the lieback without bolts - but it's been in that form for over 25 years. There are significant routes in Yosemite that have bolts that may not be necessary, strictly speaking. Many routes at Squamish and Yosemite could be climbed with reasonable safety by a competent party, using fewer bolts. But 'trade' routes in particular tend over time to have bolts added, particularly at belays, not to mention other fixed stuff - hence occasional clean ups of routes such as the Zodiac. But they're far from the state they were in when first climbed.
There are some very large underlying issues, but we can't solve them here. One is what are "necessary" bolts? Another is what place does convenience bolting have? Bolts, that is, that aren't strictly necessary, but that make a route more user-friendly. (Somewhat related to Ron's ethos for soft rock climbs.) I personally have concerns about convenience bolting at Squamish, both because of such traditions and ethos as we have, and because commercial interests often underlie it. As is evident from much of Europe, it's a short, steep and slippery slope. (I'll save my story about Diedre and convenience bolting for another time.) Another is awareness of the history and ethos of an area and routes.
Ultimately, the issues around real and perceived environmental impacts, and management of public land, are the key. So far climbers at Squamish have been left to sort out these things themselves, but that may not last forever.
It is an interesting thought experiment - if we found a new cliff now, like El Capitan or the Stawamus Chief, what sort of routes would appear, using modern techniques and equipment? How would they change over time? Would it look anything like it does now?
(In the interests of truth in advertising, at least on SuperTopo - "hippy chick" who posted upthread is Angela Heck, producer of "In the Shadow of the Chief", and spouse of Ivan Hughes. A fine film, well worth having.)
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jan 24, 2008 - 05:25pm PT
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Great post, Anders. So what about that Foot in Mouth™ discount?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 05:39pm PT
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Hummmmnnnn?
First; thanks for the information on the history Anders.
Now lemme see ....
"The crack was also too wide for bongs, even endways."
This doesn't hold water. Exiting out of the Zebra on Tissack half dome I stacked bongs on the overhanging wide exiting crack.
On Excalibur bongs were stacked.
Maybe they didn't know how to stack or thought it was too scary. (It can be)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 24, 2008 - 05:44pm PT
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Werner, I believe that on both Tis-sa-Ack and Excalibur you were aid climbing, using stacked bongs. Which must have been - interesting.
Would it be reasonable to try to place stacked bongs in a 5.11 layback/undercling, and would they do much good even if you could get them in?
There were also some homemade 5" and even 6" bongs floating about in the 1970s and early 1980s, though again not widely available, and probably not a lot of use.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 05:53pm PT
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No
I was referring to the statement on the first ascent with aid where it was said that it was too wide for bongs even end-wise.
I wasn't referring to the free-climbing part.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 24, 2008 - 05:55pm PT
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This doesn't hold water. Exiting out of the Zebra on Tissack half dome I stacked bongs on the overhanging wide exiting crack. On Excalibur bongs were stacked.
Maybe they didn't know how to stack or thought it was too scary. (It can be)
As Anders points out, Perry was about as hard as they come, he was also an experienced aid climber, and would not have been afraid to stack bongs. But there are at least two problems with that approach. First, you'd be hammering pins into a climb that had been approached hammerless for some time. Second, while my pin-stacking experience is from a long time ago, my memory is that it's a fiddly process that always takes two hands.
If someone would like to go up there with a hammer and a rack of bongs, I'll be glad to hang from an adjecent fixed line and take pictures. Getting hands-free on that thing and stacking bongs would be worth a couple of photographs...
D
I see Werner's talking about aid. But as Anders had already pointed out, the original line was a ways out on the face to the right.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 24, 2008 - 05:56pm PT
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Yeah, there are all sorts of types of old pro that would fit that. Climb it as an offwidth and you get a pesky bolt in your scapula every few feet, it looks like; again, I've never been there and don't know the story.
For something I do know about; anyone who wants to go to Balch Camp flake and lead "Wide world of sport" can probably do it on smaller valley giants, instead of the 11 bolts we used, (cause #5 camalots weren't big enough),you can decide whether to chop or not; does availibilty of relevent equipment mandate it's use? Interesting question, all I ask is a Trip Report and your thoughts...
Werner, is it still cheating if I have that many (or more) of that size cam, and I'm pretty sure I have taken a 50-100' runout on each one?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 05:59pm PT
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Ha ha Jaybro
You know I'm only joking. You also know I love to joke around like that.
The more the better .......
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 24, 2008 - 06:01pm PT
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Thanks Werner - I don't think Baldwin & Cooper had bongs, in 1961. They must have had stoveleg type pitons, as I've seen pictures of them using them on the Split Pillar, which goes from 1.5" to 4". In fact, Baldwin & Cooper placed two bolts beside the Split Pillar, because the crack expanded, and they weren't sure about the pins they put in it.
Perry's Lieback is wider, I think 6"+. So Baldwin & Cooper probably never considered nailing it, as they didn't have anything that would work, and stacked bongs were then far in the future. The first mention I can remember of stacked bongs is from Robbins' account of Tis-sa-ack - 1968 or 1969.
Nobody actually climbed, or tried to climb, Perry's Lieback until he did it. Free or aid. It was only a few metres left of the original upper bolt ladder, but not a likely prospect in context of the times. Perhaps Perry toproped it or something before he led it, and it seems probable that he did a little cleaning on rappel. It seems unlikely that he nailed it - easier just to climb the bolt ladder, and swing across. Not sure if he placed the bolts on aid or on rappel.
Someday someone will invent "PatchPro" - patches of different sizes that you simply press against rock, that provides instant anchors. Smaller patch = less strong. They'll look back on us prehistoric bolt, piton and nut users and laugh.
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 06:08pm PT
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Yeah Anders
They probably didn't have the right size bongs (if they had any at all) that early in time.
That would have been a fun aid lead stacking bongs on that pitch.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 24, 2008 - 06:09pm PT
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Jus yankin,' Werner!
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 24, 2008 - 06:57pm PT
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To add some more history, somewhere upthread Moof said: "Hit up the Kakodemon (sp?) boulder. There is a 5.13 sport "route" that is all chiseled finger pockets."
In the late 1980s, after Hilti drills appeared but before the first indoor climbing gym in the Vancouver area, a climber had the idea of creating a training route on the east side of Cacodemon Boulder. The boulder is gigantic, perhaps 30 metres high. There was no route on the back, nor did it seem likely there ever would be - it's pretty blank and steep.
As some have noticed, it rains quite a lot at Squamish. Dave thought climbers here needed somewhere to train in rainy weather. So he created a route on the boulder, using his drill. He even installed a framed plastic roof above, to keep it dry, and a bench at the base. I don't know how much it actually got used, as Vancouver got an indoor climbing gym two or three years later. It was a source of some debate at the time.
I don't remember if it was Dave who set up his "route" so it could be led, or if that was later. It's something of a one off thing - Dave is no trifler, so it was left as it was.
The correct spelling is Cacodemon, which means "horrible demon". Glenn Woodsworth's idea.
There are now some sport/free routes on various sides of Cacodemon, but none close to Dave's climb. One side is a 45 degree overhang, surrounded by other large boulders, forming quite a large protected nook. We used to camp and party there, and scramble around and tunnel through the boulders. On rainy days, we would nail the crap out of a thin crack that bisected the overhang, called Rurp Riot. Which is now more or less the line used by a sport route which they would like us to call Dream Catcher (?), which climbs the pockets we created.
Again, once PatchPro comes out, all of this will be irrelevant.
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Changlama
Trad climber
Squamish, BC
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Jan 25, 2008 - 12:16pm PT
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Here's one of Ed Cooper's photos of Jim Baldwin prussiking the fixed lines on the lower portion of the Stawamus Chief.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jan 25, 2008 - 01:20pm PT
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"tell me please who owns 5 #4 Camalots or equivalent?"
Got:
#4 friend
#3.5 old camalot
#4 C4
#4 old camalot
#5 friend
#5 C4
#5 old camalot
#6 friend
#9 you know who
So I think ~4 of those loosely count? Gotta go buy more...
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Jan 25, 2008 - 04:55pm PT
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For something I do know about; anyone who wants to go to Balch Camp flake and lead "Wide world of sport" can probably do it on smaller valley giants, instead of the 11 bolts we used, (cause #5 camalots weren't big enough),you can decide whether to chop or not; does availibilty of relevent equipment mandate it's use? Interesting question, all I ask is a Trip Report and your thoughts...
My thoughts: I'd be clipping them...
but you know me. Yer such a card Jaybro.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 25, 2008 - 05:52pm PT
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jus sayin' could be done is all
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scuffy b
climber
Stump with a backrest
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Jan 25, 2008 - 07:11pm PT
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Here are some of the ingredients in my Starter Rack:
3 #4 Friends
1 #4 Purple Camalot
1 #4 Black Camalot
2 #5 Friends
3 #6 Friends
Nothing really big, and I probably could use more
#4 Camalots.
Any of you C4 converts want to unload older pieces,
keep me in mind.
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Chief
climber
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Jun 26, 2009 - 04:30am PT
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I'm new to the Super Topo forum and had heard about this thread for some time. I'm the guy that did the first ascent of the bolted lieback in question and, given the odious references to Canadian ethics and my sexual orientation feel compelled to reply.
The crack was a topic of conversation for some time back in the late seventies as we were all working on eliminating the aid from the original Grand Wall route. I had gotten to the base of the left side free via Merci Me (Although Putnam and Loeks are rumored to have gotten to the Pillar free, there's no confirmation anyone did this before I did). Eric Weinstein had already freed the right side and if Nick Taylor didn't do the left side first, Bill Price definitely did a good job. The Sword had been freed by George Manson and Tom Gibson. I recruited Greg Cameron to go up the left side and then to try the offwidth. We brought along some tubes and a couple six inch bongs but Greg threw them off the top of the Pillar (he said he dropped them). Greg climbed over to the offwidth and checked it out. Having soloed the Lost Arrow Chimney and the FFA of Pipeline, I respected both Greg's abilities and opinion on wide cracks. He thought the crack would be a real bitch straight on and hard to protect with tubes. He agreed that the pitch would be a lot more enjoyable as a layback and probably a bit more in keeping with the flavor of the rest of the route. I kicked the idea around with the rest of the gang and it seemed to have some acceptance.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, the original Baldwin Cooper bolt ladder started right of the bottom of the crack and finished in the top of the crack. I rationalized that moving the six or so aid bolts closer to the lieback would be a good compromise allowing people to either free or aid past the crack. I hand drilled 1/4" Rawls on lead, then pulled my rope and lead it free. For all the flapping about how retrograde my actions were, to this day I don't know of anyone who has dragged big cams up there and lead it free. It gets climbed all the time and I see lots of people lobbing off or hanging on the bolts.
Werner, you should check in on Valley ethics and history before you call anyone a homo for their approach to climbing in their area. Chopped holds on Outer Limits and Freestone, bolts beside the Burner and Wheat Thin stand out as glaring examples of the hypocrisy and inconsistency in your much vaunted "Yosemite ethics". The comments and threats posted in this thread are fighting words in my part of the world so bring an appetite for knuckle sandwiches along with your crowbar if your keen on a bolt chopping road trip to Squamish.
Perry Beckham
Squamish BC
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couchmaster
climber
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Jun 26, 2009 - 11:25am PT
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I suspect that Werner was joking Perry, the longer you are around here you'll learn that on these ethics ranting issues where the local Yosemite villagers want to march off and burn some offender at the stake threads: Werner is often the guy calling for reason. Go look up the Scott Cosgrove thread reaming Doug Robinson on the new 1/2 Dome route. It may be one of the longest threads on ST.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=566859&tn=0&mr=0
Thanks for checking in and sharing the history !!!!
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Jun 26, 2009 - 04:59pm PT
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I had missed this thread.
Tx for the post, Perry.
Tons o bolts on the original Grand Wall line. Moving that one aid ladder over to the wide probably reduced visual impact rather than making it worse. At one point, there was a knotted fixed rope on the original ladder so that you could just batman that section and leave the aiders home.
And the original ladder was something less than a work of art. By the time I did it, plenty of bad rusting studs.
Had Grand been a free climb originally-- or had the FA party aided that wide on stacks -- i imagine things might've been different.
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Climbing dropout
Trad climber
Vancouver, BC
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Jun 26, 2009 - 06:18pm PT
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Perry,
Bravo man ... let her rip !
You did the right thing, both then, and now.
Bruce MacDonald
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Jun 26, 2009 - 07:05pm PT
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This is sort of a mini, more easily digestible version of a WoS or SFHD thread.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jun 27, 2009 - 03:34am PT
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You did the right thing, both then, and now.
No sh#t. As Perry says, anyone who wants to drag a load of giant cams (or bongs to stack) is welcome to do so, but for everybody else he made the route better, not worse, by replacing a bolt ladder with a bolt-protected free pitch.
David Harris
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jun 27, 2009 - 10:14am PT
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SC couldn't have said it better. Peary is one of the most impressive people I have had the pleasure to meet in my 5 decades of climbing.
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Climbing dropout
Trad climber
Vancouver, BC
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Jun 27, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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This photo clearly demonstrates that it was the first ascent party, Baldwin and Cooper in 1961 that dropped the ball on this issue.
They completely avoided the natural feature which is now called "Perrys Lieback". Not to mention Baldwin Cooper also created 2 or 3 pitches of bolt ladder right past Merci Me down lower, a 5.8 low angle face climbing section.
By moving this upper section of the bolt ladder to the left, which had a limited lifespan anyways, Perry eliminated the "Atrocity defined" which was actually created by Baldwin and Cooper and added a bit more free climbing.
In this photo, Tim McAllister is on Perry's Lieback, Grandwall, Squamish. The belayer is at the original bolt ladder, well one of them anyways. You can see how tantalizingly close, but oh so far away the original bolts were. Pretty easy to justify the remedy which was taken I'd say. The amount of climbing in question is about 3% of the entire route. Maybe that gives some perspective.
Anyone considering chopping bolts on Grandwall, would also have to chop all of Baldwins and Coopers original, bolt ladders lower down on the route as well, to fully satisfy their own narrow minded ethical requirements.
Oh and my fighting days are over so count me out of the ruckus in that department ...
Maybe some apologies are in order instead ?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jun 28, 2009 - 01:27pm PT
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Did anyone happen to read this post - made 48 hours after the OP?
----------------------------------------
Jun 7, 2003, 02:25pm PT
Author:
Hardman Knott
Just wanted to say that in retrospect, "Atrocity" seems way
out of line -- sorry to anyone I might have offended.
I posted the link before really looking into the circumstances.
Ignorance is not always blissful.
Just think, with one click of the edit button, I could delete
this entire thread, and all blatent evidence of my naivete'...
(moving the trigger finger across the keyboard)
Ahh, I'm savoring the immense power of censorship!
Hardman Knott
------------------------------
While this thread provided much entertainment (as originally intended), it also provided some great info, especially from Anders.
Hope everyone is enjoying the great weather. I most certainly am...
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Chief
climber
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Jun 28, 2009 - 02:09pm PT
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Thanks for the kind words and support after my somewhat cathartic rant about this way too old, much too flogged subject. If I've learned anything in my half century it's that it's real easy to fly off the handle on limited information viewed through a narrow and flawed paradigm. We climbers love rigid belief systems that support or rationalize our behaviour and lifestyles. It's important to try to walk around the compass a bit and to imagine the view from someone else shoes.
I've also learned the hard way that we communicate differently and not necessarily for the better on the internet. Grammar, syntax and basic coherence seems to go out the window for the whole world to see. I think we could make these forums a lot better by making an effort to recognize the lasting power of the written word and to be more careful with our choice of words.
I apologize to all who may have taken umbrage at the "knuckle sandwich comment". It definitely wasn't directed at my longtime hero Werner Braun but more at the mindset being expressed in the bolt chopping road trip comments. Frankly, I'd rather offer a visitor some route info, a cold beer or a dry place to stay.
Squamish and the Yosemite Valley climbing history and culture are
very strongly connected and the traditions of great climbers from both areas are alive and well in Squamish today. We have always welcomed and applauded the successes of our visiting Valley guests. Royal Robbins, Bill Price, Hugh Herr, Chris Sharma and many other great Valley climbers have contributed to the character and traditions we uphold.
In closing, after looking at the original photo that stirred the ruckus, I can understand that if that was the only information I had on that pitch, and I hadn't learned some hard lessons already, well... I might fly off the handle and spew a bit.
The fact is that you'd probably need a half dozen #5 and #6 Camalots to lead it without bolts and it would be burly 11+, sporty, righteous and many of today's climbers would hike it and declare it fluff. I won't be one of them in this lifetime.
Thanks for letting me share, peace and good cragging to all.
Perry
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jun 28, 2009 - 02:19pm PT
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Perry - it's awesome to hear from the FFA-ist himself
(better late than never - LOL).
Your contributions are much appreciated.
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