Surviving Sedona.....January 8th is my new second birthday

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Messages 141 - 160 of total 191 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Tami

Social climber
Canada
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:20am PT
Jeez Jim. Scary schitt.

I say we start a fund to get donini some new briefs. Doubtless his have been thrown out & there was talk from his own fine self about going commando unless in Bermuda shorts.


Might be time to start wearing ginch. Hope poo didn't rain down on those below when that sling gave up the ghost.


Super glad yer writing about it instead of us reading about it.


Y'ALL stay SAFE out there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
Ixs

Big Wall climber
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:35am PT
regards
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jan 13, 2013 - 10:53am PT
I say we start a fund to get donini some new briefs. Doubtless his have been thrown out & there was talk from his own fine self about going commando unless in Bermuda shorts.
\

Ya - must of been a hell of a scare!
captain chaos

climber
Jan 13, 2013 - 12:03pm PT
"life is a series of narrow escapes with sighs of relief in between"


Credit: captain chaos


Credit: captain chaos


Credit: captain chaos



Glad you escaped this one Jim... tell Bridwell I say hello, Craig
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2013 - 01:03pm PT
Everbody thinks I soiled my underwear. Actually, it happened so unexpectedly and suddenly I wasn't scared at all. I just found myself hanging from the knotted sling and knew I had to do something. A convenient hand jam and a good red camalot placement brought the situation completely back to normal. Never felt nervous, if I had seen it coming the underwear surely would have needed washing.
le_bruce

climber
Oakland, CA
Jan 13, 2013 - 03:38pm PT
You mentioned no leaver was there when you arrived, which means that probably at least one party had rapped and then pulled their rope directly over the sling.

In the desert, the sawing on the sling when a rope is pulled through is even worse given the inevitable sand and grit that find their way into the rope's sheath.

Your story will definitely stick with me and echo back to the surface on future raps. As a guy who likes to climb obscurities in Yosemite, I appreciate the reminder.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 13, 2013 - 04:58pm PT
Yikes.
One lesson is to test "white" slings.
And maybe that nylon goes bad a lot faster in Sedona than in Yosemite and other places that don't routinely go over 100 degrees F?

P.S. cragnshag is my climbing partner, and I thought the plan was not just to send the heaviest person first, but to have the temporary backup in place for them (with enough slack so that it is not directly weighted).
The other way to choose who goes first is who has more people at risk if they don't make it. Haven't had to seriously use this one, fortunately.
Usually we have 2 of cragnshag's really good bolts and quicklink/chainlinks in for anchors, so there's about zero anchor *material* failure risk.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Jan 13, 2013 - 05:22pm PT
I was taught the leader went first and the 2nd had to clean the backup.. these days I leave whatever is needed to make it safe...
Seamstress

Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
Jan 13, 2013 - 05:32pm PT
Wiley and experienced. Thanks for sharing. That's not luck - that's listening to that inner voice.

So much for you folks who laugh at me and my redundanitis.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 13, 2013 - 06:25pm PT
One lesson is to test "white" slings.
How would one test them? IMO, if it's white, it can't be trusted.
SteveW

Trad climber
The state of confusion
Jan 13, 2013 - 06:27pm PT

Talk about cool under pressure.

That's JD!
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:42pm PT
How would one test them? IMO, if it's white, it can't be trusted.

Clip your harness to the sling and weight it, then bounce it (requires a backup and a non-fragile back).
You can also do a less severe loading by jerking on it with your arm, or clipping a sling to it and stomping in the sling.

The complete visual inspection that Jim did is also important. It's not equivalent to a full body weight test, though. This is part of the standard sequence you do while still clipped into the rappel rope (if this is a lower anchor in a series). Although sometimes steps get skipped to save time. Redundancy is good....

I've tested plenty of white slings in Yosemite that pass the loading test with my (light) body weight. I also have an occasional relatively new slings whose original color is white (with a single black strand). Most nylon slings are fortunately colored these days. And specta etc. has two colors.

These days I have a tiny knife on my harness, and often spare tied slings in my pack. Often I will untie and remove slings from anchors that have "too many" (> 2) "good" ones, and move them to other anchors that have "too few" ( < 2 ).

Almost all slings I see pass my bounce testing and many look very bad (faded on top, fully faded, frayed partway through, very dirty/moldy, etc.). If I have extra slings with me, I remove and replace. Otherwise I might remove a few of the worst ones if there are still 2-3 semi-bad ones left.

As for trust, I trust the ones I've vigorously tested. And I vigorously test stuff when there is poor/no redundancy, or possibly suspect slings. I don't bounce test stainless 3/8" double-bolt anchors, or colored/non-faded slings.... :-)
toadgas

Trad climber
los angeles
Jan 13, 2013 - 07:53pm PT
restores my faith in knots jammed into cracks

impressive self-save!
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Jan 13, 2013 - 08:31pm PT
Clip your harness to the sling and weight it, then bounce it (requires a backup and a non-fragile back).
I understand the whole testing thing, really.

The thing is, let's say the sling can hold 500 lbs for 5 seconds and your testing uses up about 3 seconds of that and you don't notice anything wrong? I think the right answer is not testing - it's hey, this sling is white, can't be trusted, and may fail at a really low force - better have a plan B.

Not that I don't believe in testing everything all the time - but it's mostly to verify that things I already know and trust are all connected - not to expect I can do some kind of material science voodoo testing out in the wild on the individual componants - that's just crazy, really, if you think about it and have done much of this sort of testing in a formal way. You're really just rolling the dice - still. Sample of one and no controls doesn't tell you anything. The sling just can't be white w/o a backup.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 13, 2013 - 08:38pm PT
As for trust, I trust the ones I've vigorously tested.
+1.

Blind trust: bad.
Empirical, evidence-based trust: good.

Trust (aka faith) can be a tricky animal, no doubt. In relationships. In rock climbing. In belief. But one thing's for sure: blind trust (aka blind faith) is of the worst case, last resort type.

restores my faith in knots jammed into cracks

Which, it's worth noting, ain't a blind faith. ;)

.....

the sling can hold 500 lbs for 5 seconds and your testing uses up about 3 seconds of that

That makes zero sense. Back to science class, mr.

material science voodoo testing... Sample of one and no controls doesn't tell you anything...

Neither does this. Makes zero sense. Nada. Beta: If I were you, I'd not do any more rappelling until you're clear on the basic dynamics involved. (Also, the basic statics.)

I understand the whole testing thing, really.

Not according to your post, you don't.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jan 13, 2013 - 11:39pm PT
I'm with JLP on this, actually... and it's because of the type of accident represented in the OP, maybe Donini can elaborate on his habit, that is, whether or not he tested the sling with force before weighting it.

It is certainly true that after inspecting the slings, and cleaning up the station, I might decide that there are good slings there and I can trust my life to them.

But if I have any doubt, independent of testing, I just put a new sling on the anchor. Looking at Donini's picture, I would have put a new sling on the anchor... that's me.

This isn't the first accident, and certainly not the first "near miss" that has occurred with old slings. Maybe you're ok going through the test ritual, but if there is any doubt, why not just contribute to the upkeep of the rap stations and add a sling? and maybe clean up a bit of tat?

It's not so much of an effort... and there is no uncertainty regarding the integrity of the anchor when you do it.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Jan 14, 2013 - 02:55am PT
I'm with JLP also.
We really shouldnt even have to debate this one.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 14, 2013 - 04:12am PT
Now filed under: 'Old dogs, new tricks'.

Reminds me I did know a guy long ago to whom you could give a gnarly, old, outdoor tomcat and he'd return a sweet house cat after three weeks. He said there is always a way to teach an old cat new tricks. He was expensive, though, and only had one rule - you couldn't ask him how he did it.

It was nice of Jim to be so forthcoming in this case.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 14, 2013 - 04:24am PT
i think you missed my point entirely, ed. it isn't a scientific one, but it could easily become so.

of course everyone is glad when someone survives something like this. we've spent the whole thread telling jim we're glad he's alive and well. for the record, i am too. i'm not suggesting we pick apart the incident. as you say, jim was gracious enough to share it with us. but in his original post he said that he read some sort of technical article which seemed to say how strong an old sling can be. that's what i want to pick apart, the everlovin' article. are you in the camp with moosedrooler such that you never question anything once it gets into a "respectable" publication?

as an aside, i hope dirtbag made coffee. mt. piņos has powdah, powdah, powdah. cold is good. i crashed at 8 pm and now i'm up way too early.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Jan 14, 2013 - 05:36am PT
Yeaaarrrrrgh! Spooky stuff there, Jim. I haven't been bringing webbing for a while now and plan to put it back on the gear list for obscure and/or poorly maintained areas.

The last, crap anchor I rapped off of on the Diamond had at least four separate pieces of rotten webbing.
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