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go-B

climber
Hebrews 1:3
Dec 31, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
photo not found
Missing photo ID#281542
BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Dec 31, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
Jerry Coyne's argument is very clear. They can't get along.

I know Christian scientists who do good work in geosciences and from what I can tell, they take the whole Genesis thing as allegorical.

Belief without evidence doesn't work. End of story.
Norton

Social climber
the Wastelands
Dec 31, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
Wener, you are incredibly stupid

you QUOTED my post in YOUR reply post, go back and LOOK at it, idiot wind

and NOW you say you were not replying to me


did you get dropped on your head as an infant?

you really are childlike

and knock off your stalking sh#t or I will be all over your lost in the forest crap
WBraun

climber
Dec 31, 2012 - 10:40pm PT
you really are childlike

Thanks for the compliment.

You should become childlike too instead of an old worn out sourpuss that you've become ......
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Dec 31, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
I find it frustrating that the anti-evolution tact has gained so much ground.

I was trained by three of the great evolutionists of the last century, and consider myself very lucky to have encountered them. I recently reviewed some of the words of one of them, Francisco Ayala, who was an ordained Catholic Priest.

I find it odd that people who have very superficial understanding of things, who have not studied them in great depth, discard words of people who've spent their lives in study, simply out of hand.

He says:

With Catholics, I take out the Pope's address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences in October 1996 where he endorses evolutionary teachings.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/papaldoc/jp961022.htm

Pope John Paul II:

In his encyclical Humani Generis (1950), my predecessor Pius XII has already affirmed that there is no conflict between evolution and the doctrine of the faith regarding man and his vocation, provided that we do not lose sight of certain fixed points.......

.....It is important to set proper limits to the understanding of Scripture, excluding any unseasonable interpretations which would make it mean something which it is not intended to mean. In order to mark out the limits of their own proper fields, theologians and those working on the exegesis of the Scripture need to be well informed regarding the results of the latest scientific research.....

Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical, some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than an hypothesis.* In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies—which was neither planned nor sought—constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory.

....The theory proves its validity by the measure to which it can be verified. It is constantly being tested against the facts; when it can no longer explain these facts, it shows its limits and its lack of usefulness, and it must be revised......................

From the Vatican, October 22, 1996, John Paul II

Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 1, 2013 - 12:05am PT
yeah that was Pope John Paul ll.

You sure as hell won't catch Ratshitslinger talking like that.


Toadgas - remember to put a little smily face or a ): or something to indicate you're just joshin' around. I got it - that was funny!
Jim Clipper

climber
from: forests to tree farms
Jan 1, 2013 - 12:05am PT
Would the Bible be more believable if it had talked about Martians?
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 1, 2013 - 12:10am PT
They do. Thats what angels are. But no one would groove on it if they lookeed like this:

mechrist

Gym climber
South of Heaven
Jan 1, 2013 - 12:24am PT
Gay martians are in it with the aliens.
PotatoHead

Trad climber
Nunya,ID
Jan 1, 2013 - 01:36am PT
If 2/3 of the debt was caused by Republican governments, then 2/3 of it should be paid by Republican VOTERS

What a bunch of BS!! The country is basically 50%/50% Dem/Rep. Has been for some time.It takes more than a one vote majority to get something done in this country. That means someone on YOUR team punted to the Rep's...or vice-versa to get something they wanted(to get paid for). Quit crying about the Republicans and Fox news. 99% of the information we all get is fear-mongering BS meant to pay for commercials on TV or the internet. Fox, CNN, NBC, etc...take your pic. Where are you getting your facts people? The only truthful info you're going to get is how big Kim Kardashian's ass is getting. 50% Dem + 50% Rep = 100% Sucking Lobbyist/Corporate America Teet.

Happy New Year!!
Yer gonna die!!!

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jan 1, 2013 - 02:27am PT
I am still astonished by the concept that the country goes to war, and people expect that there will be no personal financial sacrifice....none.

We can go about our business as though nothing is happening.

In fact, two wars.

Nobody has to pitch in, in any way.

<shaking my head>
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Jan 1, 2013 - 02:54am PT
Amerika the Intolerant. Ignorance is always relative and never absolute.
Degaine

climber
Jan 1, 2013 - 06:21am PT
Ken M wrote:
I am still astonished by the concept that the country goes to war, and people expect that there will be no personal financial sacrifice....none.

We can go about our business as though nothing is happening.

In fact, two wars.

Nobody has to pitch in, in any way.

I'm just a surprised as you, Ken. Especially given the Bush administration, Republican, and right-wing rhetoric and, well, dishonesty that got us in to each war. Not to mention their false criticisms of the left for not supporting the troops and not being patriotic all the while requiring no sacrifice from anyone and putting the wars on the credit card.

Republican lip-service to being fiscally responsible is truly Orwellian, and those individuals who gobble it up (many on this forum) are part of the ignorant to which donini is referring to.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 1, 2013 - 09:24am PT
for educated roman catholics, evolution and belief have never been at odds, thanks to the thinking of pierre teilhard de chardin, whom i reference rather habitually here, but who seems to stay off the mental radar for anyone raised protestant. i don't think ken is catholic, else he'd be referencing teilhard as well, rather than that charlatan JP2, the "w" of the catholic church.

um, getting back to the important aspects of egyptology, the case for, shall we call it, deeply ancient civilization was bolstered a few years ago when a geologist named robert schoch proved rather conclusively--at least to fellow geologists--that the sphinx at giza has been water-eroded bigtime. like back to the last ice age. needless to say, it was very upsetting to the egyptological community, such as it is, and its archaeo-anthropo-historio brethren.

something called the motorboat phenomenon occurs in such circumstances. at annual society confabs, the disturbing paper always gets on the agenda, you can count on that. it'll be the only interesting thing there. then, as from so many old evinrudes badly in need of overhaul, a great "but, but, but, but ..." arises. afterwards, back at their universities, they knuckle down to damning the upstart heresy and building puffy alliances with their fellow orthodox. if you think this resembles the evolution of religion, you're becoming less ignorant.

how many people think werner is a sourpuss himself? i can't decide.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Jan 1, 2013 - 09:33am PT
whatsamatter, riley, don't like war? generates lots of business for nurses.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Jan 1, 2013 - 11:24am PT
re: "faith", different species of "faith"

Overheard last night:
"Life rewards faith, hard work and honesty."

This particular use of "faith" wasn't said in any religious context, it certainly wasn't meant as any blind faith, any blind religious faith. It was meant in regard to trust or in regard to confidence.

But this is not to say that faith or trust itself can't be a tricky concept or thing. My niece was way too trusting at one point last year; she suffered the consequences. Today I think her trust (or faith) is not so easily given and of much higher quality.

The blind trust (or blind faith) that Christianity or Islam specializes in, and foists on its adherents, is of the worst case sort.
Bruce Kay

Gym climber
BC
Jan 1, 2013 - 11:39am PT
then, as from so many old evinrudes badly in need of overhaul,



poor old evinrude. Never quite made it up to the Merc or Johnston standard of reliability.


Today I think her trust (or faith) is not so easily given and of much higher quality.


Lucky her huh? I think its a fair trade - A little "lost innocence" in exchange for a truer understanding of trust. I've had mote than one conversation with my kids where i've had to endure their scorn and ridicule for suggesting that even with family trust is earned. They seemed to think that I was blood bound to trust them with all kinds of idiocy. At 17 and 19 they don't struggle with this concept as much thank god.

Organized religion reminds me of a six year old trying to pull a fast one on a 4 year old.





rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Jan 1, 2013 - 12:48pm PT
Evolution vs. creationism doesn't bother me that much...it's the lunatics that interpret the bible literally and reproduce like rabbits while feeling smug and chummy about stripping the planet of it's natural resources...then to make matters worse , these folks vote against anything with common sense such as higher gas mileage , solar energy , avoiding global conflicts....The lunatics have a hand on the steering wheel and are driving the bus off the cliff ...This is a close description of ignorance i think...?
MikeL

climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
Jan 1, 2013 - 01:48pm PT
MikeL, I think you may have misread the Boroughs & Rindfleisch paper? I just flew through it... might have missed it... but it appears to be about material possessions and I don't think it mentions intelligence at all.

Exactly right, mechanist. My thought was invisible and implicit in the reference. My screw-up. Here is my thought: It seems to me that modern materialism is driven by higher levels of education, technology, and science. People have more access to materials (products, services, ego building "things") through modern materialism--all of which come about through what / how people think what intelligence is or how it is talked about. Verstehen Sie? Materialism seems very highly correlated to "intelligence" as it is typically talked about.

NO slander intended (really, guys!), but people like Ed, HFCS, MH2, Base, Survival, Norton, Dr. F., Bruce Kay, and most others here on ST seem to think that content (stuff, scientific facts, concepts) are the signs or artifacts of intelligence. That is how I read their posts. Intelligence generates "things that we know." Intelligence is, here in this form, discursive thinking (with a bow to Largo wherever he is), analytical thought, concepts, models, and abstractions.

But that's not how people have always thought about intelligence. There are also notions of wisdom, reason (not analytical thinking), and the importance of values. The contemplative sciences (including branches of mysticism), socratic greek thought (reason unencumbered by instinct or the passions), and even early postmodernists (Nietzsche) pointed to problems created by rationalism. For example, Nietzsche's idea of "the last man" (a man incapable of frustration) is a negative result of the Enlightenment's elevation of rationalism and egalitarianism (see also de Toqueville) over culture, aesthetics, and the passions. Nietzsche was most concerned with the poetic imagination of humanity: relying upon only science, man is groundless because science cannot provide the capacity to value. The use of God, Nature, and history have been exhausted in the modern state. As a result, Man is disenchanted, uprooted, and nihilistic. What's now needed, claimed Nietzsche, is the Ubermench, a being of moral superiority who creates values, cultures--not truths. What matters most to humanity is ever-increasing self-fulfillment into totally new levels of existence that Man can't readily see . . . least of all with science alone.

All decisions rely upon sets of values ordered into hierarchies: what's good or bad, right or wrong, appropriate or inappropriate? Science, analyses, models, and abstractions (tools) cannot establish those. Values come from cultures, communities, aesthetics, and imaginations--none of which are amenable, in the slightest, to analyses.

I deal with this kind of thing with organizations. The very determination of industry, mission, and corporate values only come from the heart or creative imagination. I have yet to see a single decision that anyone makes that does NOT rely upon values.

Does, would intelligence include values? It must. Indeed, science and democracy themselves are value systems; they are visions of worlds. What is rational is entombed or wrapped up in non-rational determinations. (People seem to overlook the arrangement.)

That very recognition, however, opens the door to discussions about what is good, bad, etc. Again, the content and approach of science and rationalism cannot help to guide us. What are we left with? We are left with creative imagination, which includes religion, mysticism, culturalisms, nationalism, nihilism, sophism, egoism, and means of direct apprehension.
yedi

Trad climber
Stanwood,wa
Jan 1, 2013 - 02:01pm PT
"Live and let live" one of the simplest yet most difficult concepts to apply to living.
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