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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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Jim that reminds me of an article way back when (by an east coaster I think) who with the support of a ground team, advocated a system for down tensioning hooks as free protection.
Looks like the idea never "caught on".
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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Or "caught anybody" either.
Bummed...just back from some great craggin in S. AZ. and it's a dreary, snowy day in Ouray.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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The eastener who tensioned hooks was Ken Nichols, CT. A talented moron.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 15, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
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bk, check my my post again.
The traverse to the Left Side and the last pitch of U Wall are classic local examples of bomber straight down pins where cams and widgets won't fit.
My post also acknowledges the rust factor and suggests less rust prone materials.
Now I remember that FA called Two Dimes for a Quarter because there was no Nichols.
Jim, the clowns in question broke the heads off pins that hadn't moved in over a decade.
Periodic maintenance would tighten up the less stable placements.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
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Pitons generally take almost no thinking to place
I disagree. That's not what I remember from the 1950s. Maybe in Yosemite.
;>)
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 15, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
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Thanks for that reminder jogill.
I've found more than my fair share of perplexing placements.
Failed utterly a few times.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
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Kid save those things for the alpine... or the Rockies. You can climb any free route in Squamish clean.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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Pitons generally take almost no thinking to place
Only said by an idiot.
Placing pitons was a beautiful art.
It's gone.
Gimmie some pitons ya wankers, I love placing them.
Stupid Americans ......:-)
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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Use of pitons acceptable today only in modern road cuts, modern quarries, and active pyroclastic flows.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:36am PT
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The Whole Natural Art of Protection
In 1972 hardest route FAs in the Valley were:
Anchors Away 5.11a
Basket Case 5.11b
General Hospital 5.11c
High Pressure 5.11b
Gold Rush 5.11b
Leanie Meanie 5.11b
Razor's Edge 5.12b
Shaky Flakes 5.11a
Protecting many of these with pitons would have been problematic...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:51am PT
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Right you are Ed....I did two of those 1972 FA's. Leanie Meanie had a fixed pin from an earlier attempt but I protected the crux with nuts and ran out the wide section. Basket Case would have been way easier if TM had remembered to include some large hexes in the rack.
Both routes are considerably easier to protect with modern cams.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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"The rationale for replacing fixed pins with bolts because the pins rust out, particularly here in Squamish is valid.
One of my current projects is researching the availability and efficacy of stainless steel or titanium pins for fixed protection where they're a reasonable alternative to bolts."
Back in the late 60īs/early 70īs there were stainless pitons available in the U.K. made by Trevor Peck for the coastal cliffs which were beginning to be developed. They had an unfortunate habit of the eye breaking off and it was standard to use a longer one and tie it off instead. They dissapeared from the market and the cliffs around the late 70īs.
I did a project on pitons for the British Mountaineering Council a few years ago on sustainable pitons as quite a number of routes on the sea cliffs rely (that is in itself debatable) on pitons for protection. We tested over a hundred pitons in various rock types including stainless pitons (which we made) and some titanium ones.
While one can make a stainless piton the performance isnīt that good for various reasons and the cost somewhat prohibitive. The titanium ones where great but made of the hardest titanium Iīve ever taken a hammer to, probably some part of a Russian space program. The normal grades of Ti arenīt going to be hard enough in all probability and again a piton will be a pricey object.
The big downfall is the assumed security of fixed pitons, a rusting peg is fairly obviously not to be completely trusted but make them shiny and people (especially climbers coming from a sport climbing orientation) will more likely assume they are perfect. However a crack is sign of geological activity and particularly for the U.K many of the pegs are in limestone which dissolves away around the piton or the cliff falls down anyway. In the USA there was a well known court case regarding "fixed" pitons in a seismologically active area which turned out not to be as fixed as hoped or assumed.
The end decision by the BMC was not to fund or promote a general replacement of fixed pitons and to let the routes become harder if nescessary.
There are local exceptions where pitons are regularly replaced and locally derived solutions since bolts on these routes are completely banned but the general view is to not replace.
In the rest of Europe generally the principle is to replace a piton with a bolt (or nothing).
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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Excellent.
I wouldn't advocate the use of fixed pins for free climbing protection as a global best practice.
There are however some situations where they seem more appropriate than bolts.
Again a question of context.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
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Another great troll Luke, well done on hooking several big fish - did you get yourself a set of Tomahawks ordered yet ?
Just come clean and tell us what Squamish aid wall you and Leclerc are planning to bang the snot out of with your new Iron collection to make it a free climb ?
No worries you won't be the first to do that, it's cool ....
You don't have to ask permission, I am even willing to help out with overdriving a few pitches.
Edit: BTW I need your signature on a document for the University of Ketichikan regarding our Stave Lake trip.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
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Yosemite is a chipped choss pile that makes most European sport crags look pristine.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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Nobody asked you, pus.
How about you go away again? Forever.
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
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Trolling requires the use of a downrigger. I'm just jiggin' Bruce.
Thought you were buying me a set of tomahawks in honour of some dude named Jeebus(sp?)
Oh and by the way, I saw a few Mounties investigating a bush in from of Local pub, if you were stashing anything illegal in said bush you might want to just turn yourself in.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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So tonight's question for the Pnut gallery is...
"peanut gallery: people whose criticisms are regarded as irrelevant or insignificant"
That pretty much defines my position here.
idiot
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
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Kid Comer, I hope it's not the baggie I was keeping your business card in along with my medicinal stash
;-)
Edit: That 30 year old rusty frozen Yellow Metolius tri-cam I gave you this summer was your Christmas present, Remember ?
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