Discussion Topic |
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 15, 2012 - 02:39am PT
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Evenin' folks;
I inherited a sh#t ton of pitons the other day and jt got me thinking.. It got me thinking about the destructing act of bashing pins into tiny seams over and over until larger pitons are needed then eventually cams and possibly fingers.
I'm even told that BITD the the free climbers clipped Ito "fixed pins" during first ascent of burly cracks.
So tonight's question for the Pnut gallery is "what role do pitons play in the evolution for crack climbing?".
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:46am PT
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Pitons, repeatedly driven into Serenity Crack and so many other climbs, eventually allowed them to be climbed free and to eventually be protected by nuts and cams and therefore be climbed "clean." Evolution is a fact, not a theory!
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:51am PT
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Dude, I know you wanna go out and bash some iron. I can feel it all the way down here. Aren't there a few routes in Squamish that you can still bring a hammer on? I think there are a couple left at Index that you could get away with it. What has this world come to? I know it's not sustainable but it sure is fun and you get an idea of what the pioneers of this sport went through. I feel lucky that when I did the Tang. Trip and Mescalito there was still quite a bit of hammer work involved. Not lucky that I carried all those pins. If I did those routes nowadays, I would take a totally different approach.
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2012 - 03:08am PT
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Tons of routes up here to nail on 2nd 3rd ascents of stout nailing for those brave enough to venture up there. Pan granitic frogman, son of pan, the raven, Etc. etc.
Lots of nailing to be had around here.
But my question was How do you think pitons assisted the progression of free climbing.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:11am PT
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As compared to what?
I can't speculate on if they never existed... maybe we'd be more terrible, or toproping would be the way to go, or onsight bouldering became the only real style... who knows?
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Wayno
Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:12am PT
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Duh, I know, but Ken pretty well summed it up about Serenity. What, do you want make some new free routes with your new pin rack?
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:20am PT
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It got me thinking about the destructing act of bashing pins into tiny seams over and over until larger pitons are needed then eventually cams and possibly fingers.
Not always the case. Not all rock is granite, and not all cracks are granite seams.
All free climbing was originally done with pitons. All. Free climbing did not evolve without pitons.
Pitons still play a major role in free climbing in the alpine setting. The shittier the rock, the more likely pitons will be useful or even mandatory. Of course, this is entirely rock and route dependent.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 09:22am PT
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http://www.blackdiamondequipment.com/en-us/blog/index/view/slug/bd-athlete-and-tech-rep-jp-ouellet-makes-first-ascent-of-mexican-snow-fairy-513-in-moab-utah
I thin I see the future. It's a lot thinker.
Pitons generally take almost no thinking to place. Stacking, that's different, but when you need to stack, that says the crack's probable wide enough for a cam of petite dimensions. Half the fun of climbing now seems to be trying to stuff in a couple of pieces or two of "the clean" as opposed to the surety of "the dirty old school" driven to the hilt in an incipient crack. Might just as well put in a bolt and save the original crack.
Retro has its place, but not here.
I know the history of Serenity is the parable of parables with its name and the irony associated with it. Yes, irony, pinhead. The furthur into the futeere we go the wider the cracks get, because erosion happens. Melt those dudes into scrap and sell them, buy some camming devices and be happy. You have no idea of how little it takes to screw up a crack with pins. Especially soft rock.
As for the iron rack Werner has and is trying to sell, I want them to go to someone, anyone, as long as they want or think they might want them...
If I end up eating them, so to speak, meh.
As for the history, the climbers like Gervasutti, whose standards were rigid, simply ignored the hazards and risked butt rather than put in a piton, which took time and could be fatal in and of itself. They put one in if no other way presented itself, generally, but did their use actually raise the standards?
Can't see it, myself. They eschewed placement and did it anyway, in many cases. See, the leader did not fall back then. Never! They had crap--manila ropes, my God! Homemade pitons that even Fossil Climber could break! Jaysus! Those ol' boys would blow it if they saw how quick and safe cams are.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:17am PT
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When I started climbing in the 60's pitons were the primary form of protection. Runners were also used to sling horns, chockstones and trees......nuts were just appearing on the scene and cams were over a decade away.
Climbing was also much more centralized, many of today's popular areas had yet to be discovered. Yosemite was the mecca for innovation, especially in aid climbing and big walls. The emphasis in Yosemite was more about getting up a rock feature than the style in which it was climbed. The late 50's and 60's with the first ascents of Half Dome and El Cap were called Yosemite's Golden Age.
I showed up in 1970 just as the next wave of climbers were exploring the possibilities of free climbing. Only a few of the easier routes on the Cookie, Reeds and Arch Rock had been climbed. Over the next few years many of these routes were climbed and the 5.11 grade was established. There was also an emphasis on "free climbing" routes that had been established with aid.
In concert with these developments was the huge emphasis on "clean climbing." Yosemite was particularly vulnerable to rock scarring from pitons. There were also tremendous advances in nut design which enabled climbers to climb safetly were only pitons had been
used. Climbers racks had fewer and fewer pitons until (for many) they disappeared
altogether. By the end of the 70's cams would be in use and crack climbing would be changed forever.
These factors, taken together, led to a few climbs that were originally aid but became free climbs of which Serenity Crack is the poster child. You could spend a lifetime, even in Yosemite, and never climb a route that was made possible because of pin scars. That is one reason why I have been always mystified by the popularity of Serenity Crack....I wouldn't touch it with a ten foot pole.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:22am PT
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Jim it's safe to say that the draw of Serenity Crack is not the first pitch.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:27am PT
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Correct....and I have done the climb, but with so many other options now, I just marvel at the lines waiting to get on it.
Yosemite is a prime example of the 80/20 rule but in the Valley it's more like 98/2. Why don't people get out and explore more?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 10:30am PT
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Trailblazers have always been few amongst our kind, Jim. I completely agree though.
BTW Kid, with the advent of big peckers & Tomahawks, KBs aren't used nearly as much as they used to be.
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Borut
Mountain climber
Ljubljana, Slovenia
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:03am PT
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Lost arrows, leepers, baby angles and a sh#t ton of knife blades! Thanks Peder.
I promise to drive em, drop em, smash em, lose em, lend em, stack em and tie them off!!!
Credit: thekidcormier and don't forget to extract them carefully if you do.
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PhilG
Trad climber
The Circuit, Tonasket WA
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:20am PT
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thekidcormier,
interesting question. There are a few places that developed without pitons (namely parts of the UK, and in the Elbe Sandstone Mountains.
Both places produced amazing climbers.
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cragnshag
Social climber
san joser
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:21am PT
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No historical context here, but I will fix a pin now and again in granite whilst free climbing a first ascent of a line if no other clean protection placement is available. Generally the pin is a Lost Arrow type or larger knifeblade (Bugaboo) since they hold up better over time than the thin knifeblades. I rarely employ angles since you can usually use a nut for that size crack.
I like Jim's 98/2 rule for the Valley. Indeed, one can have a wilderness experience with an hour or two hike (or less) and climb some fantastic obscurities with no other humans in sight. Of course during the summer season, you can still hear the PA of the green dragon every hour or so. And the rumble of bikers folks who eschew mufflers. Winter solves both those problems!
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Myles Moser
climber
Lone Pine, Ca
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:25am PT
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How much for the arrows and KB's?
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Grampa
climber
from SoCal
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Dec 15, 2012 - 11:35am PT
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Well Son, lemme tell you a story.....
There was a time, long, long ago, on a rock far, far away....
OK, enough bull.
Let me take you back in time. Let's visit the one and only climbing store within 80 miles of your home and view the climbing hardware section in the locked glass case. See the shiny pitons, the new hammers and the really useless stuff from England that look like blocks of metal, which of course, no self respecting "real" climber would ever use. Gaze upon the latest technology, steel bongs with lightening holes!
With a wink and nod, ask the guy behind the counter if you can see the bolt gear. If you don't look like a narc, he will dig out the dusty box and behold the devil's tools: drills and bolts that permanently deface the rock. Oh, the shame of bolting....
Now, imagine yourself at the base of the rock with your hammer in holster, maybe 20ish heavy steel pitons, a bunch of oval biners and some tied slings. You tie the goldline rope to your swammi belt, make sure your belayer has the rope around his waist, has a firm grip on the rope and is sort of awake.
Now, climb and get up to a point where you want protection!!!
Clinging desperately with one hand and the other hand free, find a clean crack, not flaring, not shallow and not crumbling. Find a pin that fits about 2/3 of the way into the crack and jam it in as tight as you can with your hand. Reach for your hammer and make that all critical first tap. Hit it straight, otherwise you will knock it out of the crack and watch it bounce to the ground.
Now, pound that baby in until it makes a nice high pitched tink, tink, tink sound. Swing that hammer like a man, but don't knock yourself of that tiny edge you are standing on. Drop your hammer (this is the reason piton hammers have a sling), reach for an oval and clip it into the pin. Finally you can clip your goldline rope directly to the binner and you are safe!!!!!
Climb and repeat as needed. Ahhhh, the good ole days....
No quickdraws, no cams, no nuts, no sewn skinny slings. No need for a harness, no belay devices, no helmets and, by today's standards, slippery shoes.
It is probably hard for people who started climbing in the cam era to imagine such medieval conditions, but that was the norm back then.
By asking if people did things with pitons, you assume they had a choice. Well, no, there was no choice. We climbed with what we had and loved every second of it.
So, I suggest you go find an obscure boulder, take some of your pins and pound away. Then try to get them out. Pitons BITD were relatively expensive and the main reason there were fixed pins was because somebody could not get the dang thing out.
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m_jones
Trad climber
Carson City, NV
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
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I would venture to say that all free routes on el cap are pin scar dependent. If the evolution of the piton had not stopped when clean pro took over for #3 lost arrow and larger there would be far fewer free routes on El Cap at least. Not that that is good or bad it just is.
So I found an obscure boulder. Took a couple of tomahawks and did a little test.
This was bomber but only in about 3/8" or so would have been rather spicy after a few hook moves somewhere up high! Removed it and placed it again in the same spot. This time a light tap seated it. Bounce tested and removed. Third placement it was fully seated. then moved on to placing a #2 in the same place. Seating it each time (even though it was a bomber hand placement) and removing it by hand.
This is the scar after 50 placements. Each time tapped in by a hammer, bounce tested and hand removed.
And just to give the scar scale.
Not that I am adverse to doing my part in creating more free climbing on el cap but the main reason to use this type of pin is to maintain some of the adventure when aid climbing. And not the random adventure of wondering when you are going to pull a fixed head ladder.
Take a butter knife when aid climbing - remove useless copper heads and look for a spot for a tomahawk/beak. If you find one use it and get rid of the other fixed copperheads you do not need.
Imagine if the triple cracks had been done first with beaks!
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
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Thanks Max. I saw you had posted this elsewhere at some point, very cool experiment.
Have the triple cracks been free climbed? Some of those inherited pitons pictured about were smashed in there on the 5th ascent! Do they take hand placed pro now?
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
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It'll be AWHILE before the Triple Cracks are freed.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
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Aren't you lucky, to have some nice historical pitons. Maybe you should save a few, for exactly that reason - perhaps some day they could be in a collection.
In the meantime, there aren't many routes at Squamish any more with fixed pins, but there are a few. Probably the pins in question have been there for 20 - 30 years, and are rusty and unreliable. Maybe a few of the bear's/your collection could be used to replace those units, where appropriate?
Thanks to Max for the interesting photos. I suspect that angles cause considerably more damage to cracks, per placement and removal.
Thin pins can be useful for cleaning out thin cracks.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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You'll find part of the answer to your question just around the corner, and down by the sea. You'll probably have to wait for some dry weather, and be a bit clandestine about the whole operation, but you can find out for yourself, with your own fingers.
Go to the Malemute and climb Clean Crack. Feel for those few spots where you can get your tips in. Then think about why there should be such spots.
But really, as a few people have already said, it was not the pounding of pins that advanced free climbing, but the abandonment of pints -- that is, the availability of protection that could be placed easily with one hand.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
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"pints"?
We will abandon NO pints here, sir.......;-)
edit: The Horror...
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
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My god! What could I have been thinking?
Normally I'd go back in and edit a typo like that. But I think this one deserves to live on.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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A post that will live in infamy... Although I don't know that Clean Crack was ever nailed much.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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Maybe a few of the bear's/your collection could be used to replace those units, where appropriate?
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2012 - 02:00pm PT
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The pin on climb and punishment has already been appropriately yanked.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
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Hey Bruce, there ain't no fixed pin on climb and punishment anymore... Mark yanked it!
Rightly so. It takes excellent small gear.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
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Ok so this might be ugly...
Serenity Crack
But p2 is amazing!
P3 is awesome!
None of this would be free climbable at the current grade without pin scars.
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jstan
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:46pm PT
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This is not the first time the OP's question has been asked. Around 1970 in the Gunks as we were entirely ceasing the use of pins a few people were trying to promote aid climbing with them. It was apparent making arguments based only upon preserving the rock would not work. Adequate sensitivity to our situation appeared to be lacking and any argument would be interpreted only as an attempt to limit personal freedom. The argument would be turned upon itself. There was an easier way.
There were 38 aid routes in the area. In the next two years 36 of those were climbed free. Later on the number of aid routes decreased further to 1. It was a brute force approach that in the end proved to be not needed, I think. People turned entirely against the use of pins far sooner than anyone would have believed possible. If we had not freed the routes in a push, climbers in the area would have had many fun routes to free over many years. Once more proving the rule that if you are breathing, it is safe to assume you are also making mistakes. But that's life.
Another part of life seems to be that of always pursuing the one thing that provides the most fun. The absolute most fun, regardless of any disadvantages. We all appear to have our gaze permanently affixed to our own navels. This, too, is perhaps the human condition.
The ultimate goal lying high above the navel in the spectrum is to return the most we can, as repayment for the life we have been given.
Edit:
Around 1970 I took a photo of Serenity that was published in a number of places by several people. For forty years I have wondered whether Serenity had, since then, suffered even more damage. This last Facelift I finally went back. It appeared pretty much the same as it appeared in 1970.
Great good news.
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Paul Brennan
Trad climber
Ireland
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:49pm PT
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I can attest to the fact that you need a hammer on some routes in Squamish, and can also attest to the fact that beaks kick ass. Out of the pieces I've hammered, probably 85% have been beaks. Anywhere an angle can go, an offset or camhook can usually go better (and faster). Aside from the odd exception (e.g. under a roof), medium and large beaks have made KBs and angles pretty redundant. Small beaks also seem to have entirely taken over from RURPs. Beaks kick ass. With the added bonus that if you stick to beaks over more destructive pieces then Tommy Caldwell probably won't come along and free your cool aid line!
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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"...make sure your belayer has the rope around his waist, has a firm grip on the rope and is sort of awake."--Grampa
THE RIGHT STUFF, YEAH! ONLY AMERICA'S BEST & BRIGHTEST NEED APPLY!
"Why don't people get out and explore more?"--JD
Jim, I'm sendin' you a (sorry) figurative $64,000 if'n you answer that with fewer'n 25 legit reasons. I'm not stupid 'nuff t' b'lieve people're simply lazy. They ain't. Even tho we seem to be usin' a lot of apostrophes, it's actually harder. So why don't they go lookin' more?
1. Too hung on decimals and ego. (Dickhead.)
2. Not "ready" for prime time. (And make sure your rack is perfectly organized while you are waiting.)
3. No chicks out there. (No dudes out there.)
4. No wheels. (You got a thumb.)
5. It's all been done. (How will you know?)
6. I can't get anyone else interested. (John Muir never bothered with that one.)
7. It's winter, Butthead. (Even in winter things are still climbable, Beavis.)
8. I'm waiting for a check in the mail. (That's legitimate.)
9. Anything I might find is going to be a Clyde reject. (Even Clyde had his blind spots.)
I suppose I could go on, but I'm of the o-PIN-ion that there is a thread possible here on this subject of not exploring and settling for the mundane. So I'll cede the floor.
But the idea that so many climb Serenity seems to be explainable quite easily. The rating is low-end 5.11, which means you can claim a 5.11 if that's what your ego demands. This alone guarantees popularity, coupled with a piece-o-cake approach. And it's only a medium-long thin route.
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Sierra Ledge Rat
Mountain climber
Old and Broken Down in Appalachia
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Dec 15, 2012 - 02:59pm PT
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GOD, GUNS & PITONS made America free
You can pry my pitons from my cold, dead fingers.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
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the Rat's feisty this morning. Merry Crustchove, Bugaboo-breath!
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:08pm PT
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I don't buy the premise that all fixed pins protecting free climbing should be replaced with bolts.
Thin pins straight down behind flakes that won't accept passive protection are an example.
Middle Cathedral has many such examples and the quality of my climbing experience would diminish if every pin that was painstakingly placed free on lead become a bolt.
I've done a number of FAs where I was able to place bomber pins free on lead where other protection wasn't available and the "piton craft" required was an integral part of the adventure.
The traverse from under the roof to the base of the Left Side is an example.
Certain individuals took it upon themselves to remove and break the heads off bomber pins and do a botch job of replacing them with bolts. I don't think the end result was an improvement.
Serenity Crack was the poster child for the Clean Climbing Revolution and placing and removing pins on free routes (other than long alpine) is no longer considered responsible. I've been around just long enough to have witnessed the last few examples of pins being carried on established free climbs and thankfully, we have the technology to move beyond those needs.
I'll continue to carry pins in the alpine.
I often carry a hammer on long free routes that have fixed pins to tighten them up if necessary.
I respect climbing areas that establish a no piton ethic but God forbid there should come a time when the skills and adventure of piton craft on long aid routes and alpine climbs become a cultural anathema.
The rationale for replacing fixed pins with bolts because the pins rust out, particularly here in Squamish is valid.
One of my current projects is researching the availability and efficacy of stainless steel or titanium pins for fixed protection where they're a reasonable alternative to bolts.
Given the option and context specific, I'd far rather see the responsible use of natural features for sustainable fixed protection than a carte blanche default to bolts.
PB
(Irrelevant Anachronism?)
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:18pm PT
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I agree with Perry.
Bolts can too easily become a lowest common denominator "solution", for the unskilled or unimaginative.
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m_jones
Trad climber
Carson City, NV
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
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As can copperheads...
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
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True that!
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:30pm PT
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Sweet....copperheads for free climbing protection. I always duct tape my hooks on when I'm looking at a long run out.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:37pm PT
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God forbid there should come a time when the skills and adventure of piton craft on long aid routes and alpine climbs become a cultural anathema.
This would be concurrent with the ban on FAs.
Don't be so Squeamish, Squamish, tell'em to do what Harding would tell'em to do.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
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Jim that reminds me of an article way back when (by an east coaster I think) who with the support of a ground team, advocated a system for down tensioning hooks as free protection.
Looks like the idea never "caught on".
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:48pm PT
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Or "caught anybody" either.
Bummed...just back from some great craggin in S. AZ. and it's a dreary, snowy day in Ouray.
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slabbo
Trad climber
fort garland, colo
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Dec 15, 2012 - 04:51pm PT
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The eastener who tensioned hooks was Ken Nichols, CT. A talented moron.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 15, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
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bk, check my my post again.
The traverse to the Left Side and the last pitch of U Wall are classic local examples of bomber straight down pins where cams and widgets won't fit.
My post also acknowledges the rust factor and suggests less rust prone materials.
Now I remember that FA called Two Dimes for a Quarter because there was no Nichols.
Jim, the clowns in question broke the heads off pins that hadn't moved in over a decade.
Periodic maintenance would tighten up the less stable placements.
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Dec 15, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
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Pitons generally take almost no thinking to place
I disagree. That's not what I remember from the 1950s. Maybe in Yosemite.
;>)
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 15, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
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Thanks for that reminder jogill.
I've found more than my fair share of perplexing placements.
Failed utterly a few times.
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Oplopanax
Mountain climber
The Deep Woods
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Dec 15, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
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Kid save those things for the alpine... or the Rockies. You can climb any free route in Squamish clean.
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WBraun
climber
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Dec 15, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
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Pitons generally take almost no thinking to place
Only said by an idiot.
Placing pitons was a beautiful art.
It's gone.
Gimmie some pitons ya wankers, I love placing them.
Stupid Americans ......:-)
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Dec 15, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
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Use of pitons acceptable today only in modern road cuts, modern quarries, and active pyroclastic flows.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:36am PT
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The Whole Natural Art of Protection
In 1972 hardest route FAs in the Valley were:
Anchors Away 5.11a
Basket Case 5.11b
General Hospital 5.11c
High Pressure 5.11b
Gold Rush 5.11b
Leanie Meanie 5.11b
Razor's Edge 5.12b
Shaky Flakes 5.11a
Protecting many of these with pitons would have been problematic...
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 16, 2012 - 10:51am PT
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Right you are Ed....I did two of those 1972 FA's. Leanie Meanie had a fixed pin from an earlier attempt but I protected the crux with nuts and ran out the wide section. Basket Case would have been way easier if TM had remembered to include some large hexes in the rack.
Both routes are considerably easier to protect with modern cams.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:42pm PT
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"The rationale for replacing fixed pins with bolts because the pins rust out, particularly here in Squamish is valid.
One of my current projects is researching the availability and efficacy of stainless steel or titanium pins for fixed protection where they're a reasonable alternative to bolts."
Back in the late 60īs/early 70īs there were stainless pitons available in the U.K. made by Trevor Peck for the coastal cliffs which were beginning to be developed. They had an unfortunate habit of the eye breaking off and it was standard to use a longer one and tie it off instead. They dissapeared from the market and the cliffs around the late 70īs.
I did a project on pitons for the British Mountaineering Council a few years ago on sustainable pitons as quite a number of routes on the sea cliffs rely (that is in itself debatable) on pitons for protection. We tested over a hundred pitons in various rock types including stainless pitons (which we made) and some titanium ones.
While one can make a stainless piton the performance isnīt that good for various reasons and the cost somewhat prohibitive. The titanium ones where great but made of the hardest titanium Iīve ever taken a hammer to, probably some part of a Russian space program. The normal grades of Ti arenīt going to be hard enough in all probability and again a piton will be a pricey object.
The big downfall is the assumed security of fixed pitons, a rusting peg is fairly obviously not to be completely trusted but make them shiny and people (especially climbers coming from a sport climbing orientation) will more likely assume they are perfect. However a crack is sign of geological activity and particularly for the U.K many of the pegs are in limestone which dissolves away around the piton or the cliff falls down anyway. In the USA there was a well known court case regarding "fixed" pitons in a seismologically active area which turned out not to be as fixed as hoped or assumed.
The end decision by the BMC was not to fund or promote a general replacement of fixed pitons and to let the routes become harder if nescessary.
There are local exceptions where pitons are regularly replaced and locally derived solutions since bolts on these routes are completely banned but the general view is to not replace.
In the rest of Europe generally the principle is to replace a piton with a bolt (or nothing).
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 16, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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Excellent.
I wouldn't advocate the use of fixed pins for free climbing protection as a global best practice.
There are however some situations where they seem more appropriate than bolts.
Again a question of context.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:47pm PT
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Another great troll Luke, well done on hooking several big fish - did you get yourself a set of Tomahawks ordered yet ?
Just come clean and tell us what Squamish aid wall you and Leclerc are planning to bang the snot out of with your new Iron collection to make it a free climb ?
No worries you won't be the first to do that, it's cool ....
You don't have to ask permission, I am even willing to help out with overdriving a few pitches.
Edit: BTW I need your signature on a document for the University of Ketichikan regarding our Stave Lake trip.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
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Yosemite is a chipped choss pile that makes most European sport crags look pristine.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:50pm PT
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Nobody asked you, pus.
How about you go away again? Forever.
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thekidcormier
Gym climber
squamish, b.c.
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 18, 2012 - 05:52pm PT
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Trolling requires the use of a downrigger. I'm just jiggin' Bruce.
Thought you were buying me a set of tomahawks in honour of some dude named Jeebus(sp?)
Oh and by the way, I saw a few Mounties investigating a bush in from of Local pub, if you were stashing anything illegal in said bush you might want to just turn yourself in.
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mechrist
Gym climber
South of Heaven
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:53pm PT
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So tonight's question for the Pnut gallery is...
"peanut gallery: people whose criticisms are regarded as irrelevant or insignificant"
That pretty much defines my position here.
idiot
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Dec 18, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
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Kid Comer, I hope it's not the baggie I was keeping your business card in along with my medicinal stash
;-)
Edit: That 30 year old rusty frozen Yellow Metolius tri-cam I gave you this summer was your Christmas present, Remember ?
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
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huh MH ... you mailed the Metolious unit ?
Ya lost me, I need anothe rglass of wine I guess
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
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The baggie's in the post box, bmacd. Not the Unit.
More Wine!!!6!!
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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Dec 18, 2012 - 06:10pm PT
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Santa Clause in town
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Scole
Trad climber
Joshua Tree
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Dec 28, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
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Did I ever tell you the story about the time I was 40m out, on a wet 5.9 slab on the solo FA of a Patagonian wall?
Anyway,there I was, the 100m 9mm stretched to the max, with a frozen #2 friend stuffed in a flare 40 m below me. Five feet out of my reach was a knifeblade crack but the rope was tight to the anchor, and there was no one down there to give me the couple of feet I needed.
I fumbled for my axe and managed to hook it onto a small edge and gain a few inches, but I still could not reach the crack, so I rigged a prusik on the rope and attached it to the wrist loop of the axe. Carefully, so as not to rotate the axe off it's edge, I tensioned the rope,easing the weight off of me and gaining a foot or two of slack.
Once the tension was off my harness I could reach just far enough to place the tip of a bugaboo in the crack. I pulled my n.w. hammer from it's holster and drove that sucker till it rang like a bell. Finally, with a one solid piece of gear I was able to tie off the rope and search for a real anchor.
Without that pin I would have been toast; No way up, no way down, alone on a Patagonian big wall with no rescue available; I left it there for the next team to find and to wonder about, the only fixed piece of gear on a 2500' climb.
To me, there is nothing so reassuring as the rising pitch of a well driven piton. It is the essence of climbing for many of those who climbed when bolts were an evil necessity to be used only when nothing else was available, and the skillful use of nuts and pins was considered part of being a climber.
Many of my finest climbing memories involve the use of pins. In my opinion, the artful use of pitons is an essential skill for anyone who wants to venture off the trade routes into the unknown.
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Chief
climber
The NW edge of The Hudson Bay
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Dec 28, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
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Well said!
I concur and agree.
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| Messages 1 - 65 of total 65 in this topic |
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