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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Nov 21, 2012 - 10:55am PT
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^^^^
I believe he was referring more to the online aspect, rather than a guidebook itself.
Edit: oops, post rendered moot by posting too late.
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Lone Quail
Trad climber
Littleton, Colorado
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Nov 21, 2012 - 11:06am PT
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The art of imaginative writing is rare in modern guides, which are based mainly on topos and photos rather than written descriptions. The gold standard has to be Jim Erickson’s “Rocky Heights” (1980). Consider his descriptions:
The Upm Slot, 5.10:
“A breath-taking climb. One’s bust and buttock size will determine the grade, 5.7 for beanpoles, 5.11 for the bulbous.”
Scotch ‘N’ Soda, 5.11:
“Straight up or on the rocks? The first few feet present a veritable quagmire of cruxes.”
Throughout the book there is enough information to find and do the climbs, but always an uncertainty (often with the moves or protection) which adds to the adventure. Also, the historical notes on early ascents give great insight into the people and the era.
Sure – Modern guides are easier to use, but I appreciate the old ones too.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 21, 2012 - 11:48am PT
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If you didn't do the FA then you, personally, who ever you are, have NO BUSINESS reporting that route to some giveaway site. None.
If you don't want information spread about your route, don't tell anyone about it. Gossip just spreads faster on-line.
Hold on to your topo, Smeagol, and hold it close.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Nov 21, 2012 - 11:49am PT
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OK, that makes more sense.
But...nobody is allowed to post online about how to climb, say, Cathedral Peak? Because the FA never got around to it? What, exactly, is the difference between looking in a guidebook and looking online here?
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chill
climber
between the flat part and the blue wobbly thing
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Nov 21, 2012 - 11:53am PT
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Bloom's Indian Creek guide is so nice I hate to pull it out of the pack and get it dirty. Fortunately for the book I don't get to IC very often.
I think Chris overdoes the detail in his topos. There shouldn't be description of how to do specific moves.
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mrtropy
Trad climber
Nor Cal
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Nov 21, 2012 - 12:05pm PT
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Greg
Most of my routes are know only to a few, I have about 50 routes and 30 have been climbed by less than 5 people most likely. Most are 20-30 min walk from the road and easy-.6-.10 and less than 50ft, trad and sport. They are almost all of good quality. You can scope then out on line if you search a while, but because they are in a backwater, up HWY 4 in CA no one ever bothers, rarely to never do I see anyone climbing.
I have my favorites ones for different reasons:
Pinnacles by Brad young, the little red one for Lovers Leap and that Thai shown up thread. For some reason these all hit the spot.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Nov 21, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
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If someone copies the guidebook info, I see the plagiarism, but if you do an FA and then I go have my own experience on that route, I'm free to write about. I can't distribute your description of your creation, but I'm free to make my own. Just like I can write about a meal you cook in restaurant or book that you wrote.
I've seen a couple of my routes get retrobolted because folks didn't realize they'd been climbed (a downside of leaving no trace). I've also seen a route go from a mungey obscurity to one of the most popular 5.9's in the Valley and I know that it's in part because I sprayed about it here and it ended up in the Taco guide. A comprehensive guide with a gazillion routes (including Mountain Project) will only draw traffic to an area if a route is highlighted and endorsed in a big way (i.e. NEB of higher is possibly the finest 5.9 IV in the Valley) or has a lot of lore.
The good news is that 99+% of the people end up on the routes in the select. Most of the time, you can't spray enough about a route to make the chances of running into someone at the base real. Maybe if you discover the only crag in an area with no crags, but if people have options, they want 5 stars.
Hawkman's Escape, The Tower of the Cosmic Winds, Commissioner Buttress, Via Aqua...these are all well-known, full-value routes/areas where your chance of seeing someone is next to nill. Is there a more magnificent looking line in the Valley than the Cobra? I only know of three parties including the FA to have done it. If a climb doesn't have some special significance (RNWFHD, Steck-Salathe), people won't schlep to do it. And they certainly won't tolerate much in the way of dirt, diorite, or back gobies.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 21, 2012 - 01:06pm PT
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Yeah, M, my tolerance for back gobies would be kinda low...ha ha!
The power of the 'net. Birdland in Red Rock is an example. Until the Handren guide, and, since it was established relatively recently, the only source for beta was online. And, it got HUGELY popular. Great route. Deserves it popularity, which, was primarily fueled by online beta, at least initially.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
SLO, Ca
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Nov 21, 2012 - 01:19pm PT
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The internet will do what it will. There will be no standards.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 21, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
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Dingus, I didn't mean to sound like a tosser :) hope it didn't come off that way brother.
I agree also, to your point, that guidebook authors have responsabilities above and beyond pamphlet making. Enviro impact being the big obvious one, but even more so is preserving the style and ethics of the area and keeping wilderness wild.
Peace.
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ydpl8s
Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
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Nov 21, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
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A good guide will sandbag you into something that's at a level that you think you couldn't do, and then give you just enough info to actually have a chance of doing it.
Edit: I'm thinking the older versions of "High over Boulder" (handy size of that one always helped).
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 21, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
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Rock lasts forever, Dingus, and nothing wrong with only sharing your routes with those near and dear til you've had your fill.
Finders keepers.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 21, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
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I personally think there is a pretty strong linkage between the evolution of the use of guidebooks with the various topics brought up on the threads related to how relevant Trad FAs are anymore.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 21, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
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Dude sprayed about the FA of Cathedral Peak a few years back...
The body of the Cathedral is nearly square, and the roof slopes are wonderfully regular and symmetrical, the ridge trending northeast and southwest. This direction has apparently been determined by structure joints in the granite. The gable on the northeast end is magnificent in size and simplicity, and at its base there is a big snow-bank protected by the shadow of the building. The front is adorned with many pinnacles and a tall spire of curious workmanship. Here too the joints in the rock are seen to have played an important part in determining their forms and size and general arrangement. The Cathedral is said to be about eleven thousand feet above the sea, but the height of the building itself above the level of the ridge it stands on is about fifteen hundred feet. A mile or so to the westward there is a handsome lake, and the glacier-polished granite about it is shining so brightly it is not easy in some places to trace Front of Cathedral Peak the line between the rock and water, both shining alike.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Nov 21, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
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While I understand Dingus' point of view, the on-line, open source data-base approach to reporting routes has a lot of advantages to climbers (and guide-book writers):
Ideally, when describing a route in a guide, you would want to have: (1) climbed it, (2) talked to the FA team, and (3) talked to others who have climbed it. This way, you get a better consensus of the subjective experiences you are trying to convey [difficulty, quality, gear, where the route goes, etc.] to people who will be using the guide.
On-line resources expand the pool of opinions. Sure, there are opinions expressed that deviate significantly from the norm, but you can chose to ignore those -- and in fact that is the role of the person putting the guide together -- to make decisions about what to include or exclude. To an extent, if most people think a route is harder, more difficult to protect, or better approached or descended than I did, it makes me reconsider my opinion. This is a big plus.
[Edited to Add] Limiting posting of a route on-line to the FA party seems to be an unrealistic expansion of the FA prerogative (how much fixed gear, name, etc.) I don't see the logic for distinguishing the posting a route on-line from reporting a route in a print copy of a guide. And, why would these be subject to different rules?
Like it or not, most climbers today who buy guidebooks desire more information than what guidebooks traditionally provided. Also, it is important to remember your target audience -- climbers who are more often than not unfamiliar with the area, route, approach, descent, etc.
Balancing the desire to provide this information, while leaving the climber to experience the climb with some level of adventure isn't easy and is in need of constant re-examination.
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Nate D
climber
San Francisco
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Nov 21, 2012 - 03:21pm PT
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I have a few FAs to my credit in the area and knowledge of many more for which I did not do the FA but perhaps was there when it happened, or I was instrumental in finding the area and potential route, blah blah blah.
Some of my info I shared gladly, in the spirit of all the good things in a climbing community, in an area like ours, with the guidebook author who is very good at what he does and DOES try to do all or most of the routes, etc. There is a 'give back that which I have been given' element to this, outside the normal ego gratification.
But at the same time? Its like pulling teeth to get me to divulge, lol. I really have a hard time doing it - like trying to push a cat into a mud puddle. There are areas I know of vast potential - not gonna talk about those with a guidebook author, sorry. There are other areas we found and then partially climbed out... still don't want to divulge. Go find it yourself, like I did. Its up there, you can see it from the road in fact....
So you can see I'm conflicted by this subject. I LOVE guidebooks and own a few dozen of them. I've willingly divulged FA info to guidebook authors, as well. But I've also withheld and increasingly that is my default position: do not divulge. Then I have to be talked into it. Then I have to actually remember the details.
Some folk will say... "I want it written down before I forget."
Don't do it! FORGET THE DETAILS. The devil herself is in those details.
DMT
Ditto on this. Echoes my experience and much of how I feel... except the part about the details. I simply cannot forget so easily.
Sure, share some, but leave some unpublished and off the radar to preserve the adventure for others. Exploring beyond the pages of a guide is great fun, even if frustrating at times. And even if you come across evidence of others having climbed there instead of pure virgin terrain, it's still quite rewarding.
Maybe this has strayed a bit from the OP, but still relevant perhaps.
Any opinions out there about fully produced guidebooks that are only available word of mouth, essentially underground rather than distributed widely? Made available only to the truly interested and inquisitive? Does this achieve a balance between the desire to document for history and to preserve a quiet and more adventurous experience?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 21, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
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Like it or not, most climbers today who buy guidebooks desire more information than what guidebooks traditionally provided.
A most excellent reason for not providing it if ever I heard one. I mean, doesn't the fact that the oxymoron 'adventure climbing' exists at all in and of itself mean that 'adventureless climbing' now exists to a greater or lesser degree and you have to ask yourself what role guidebooks have and do play in that.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Nov 21, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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Like it or not, most climbers today who buy guidebooks desire more information than what guidebooks traditionally provided.
A most excellent reason for not providing it if ever I heard one. I mean, doesn't the fact that the oxymoron 'adventure climbing' exists at all in and of itself mean that 'adventureless climbing' now exists to a greater or lesser degree and you have to ask yourself what role guidebooks have and do play in that.
This is really an argument for not having a guide book at all. At what point do you eschew any beta (e.g., refuse to talk to others that have done the route)? Any guidebook reduces adventure, the question is one of balance.
Obviously, for a popular cragging area like Yosemite, Tuolumne, Josh, Red Rocks, etc, what is a realistic approach?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 21, 2012 - 03:39pm PT
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When will google climb appear? Real time downloadable streaming information on whatever route you're doing. In other words, paint by numbers climbing.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nov 21, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
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When will google climb appear? Real time downloadable streaming information on whatever route you're doing. In other words, paint by numbers climbing.
'Google climb - Google Earth Edition Pro' in combination with xRez 3D mapping technology and 'Google Eyes' eliminates the need for route finding on climbs and descents. Add the nightvision option for $99 more and late start problems become a thing of the past!
[ Note: This climbing navigation system will also drive advances in fabric photo-voltaic charging systems sprayed on the backs of shirts and jackets after Werner reports numerous rescues and deaths due to failure to charge the glasses and forgetting the spare batteries. ]
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