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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Nov 19, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
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I think one guidebook can't be all things to all climbers
This is true when the subject is a physical guide that you hold in your hands. But these days, hardbound guides are only one half (if that) of the resource. They're the static half, the essential skeleton, and should include static and concise info.
The other, dynamic half(+) is online, that glowing screen we're all staring into right now. And here is where each climber can use the available information to build their own experience. In effect, what Nutjob says above no longer has to be true - one guidebook can't be all things to all climbers, but one guidebook + one Google search can often deliver a complete universe of info.
Consider the Wombat species of TR, and more specifically Mark's recent, killer Yosemite Point Buttress TR.
Starting the approach to YPB in the pre-dawn with only info gleaned from Reid and maybe some inquiry around Camp 4 is a different prospect altogether from starting that approach with the wealth of description, imagery, and overlay that Mark has given to the community. Each of us is free to start our YPD day following either mold: one has more uncertainty and you could argue higher potential for "adventure" over the course of the climb; the other, more certainty and higher potential for "not getting your ass handed to you" over the course of the climb. Different types of climbers are looking for different types of satisfaction out on the granite.
Every guidebook ever published, for most climbers, is now a hybrid guidebook. Printed info from 1938 can be parlayed with a paragraph typed 20 seconds ago. For those who want it, the info is often there.
The advantage that new guidebook authors have is that - before publishing - they can strategize which medium is best for which vessel. Static, dynamic - there's a place for both, and we climbers can (not always, but often) choose how much info we want of each.
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Darwin
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 19, 2012 - 11:03pm PT
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I know some of you on this thread started with the Red Roper guide to the Valley. The skill in writing purely verbal descriptions of the approaches and routes, and the mind set required to interpret them still fills me with awe and nostalgia. It really was a different aesthetic and I sometimes miss it.
I guess the flipside was Tony and my late this summer trip to Sonora highway area. OMG!, did I wish I had a photo of pretty much anything especially as Buddy from Michigan said the first pitch of some climbs. And I'm talking about the best know "sacrificial" areas. I suppose having friends/people serving as local guides as I sort of did when I was first starting to climb in the Valley makes the purely verbal descriptions easier to use. Where were you Scuffy!?
oh, and Ed, good topic.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 20, 2012 - 12:28am PT
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No, it's a great topic, one which involves us all to some extent, and that seems to me to be the best possible quality to be found in any topic.
The old Green and Red Ropers were very adequate for their time. There were no other US guidebooks that came anywhere close; and the Green could only be compared to the Red. Roper is an excellent writer, editor, a ballsy 4th classer, and a member of several early first, second, or third ascents, which lends a helluva lot of authority to what can only be written, not drawn. He knows the history, since he and his friends were involved in a great deal of it.
As the YV topo guide is obviously not a literary venture in any of its iterations, and contains enough of the history and other fillips which are needed, like some basic info about approaches, it's main benefit is that the climbs can be shown next to one another, so the reader has that going for him. Once he's done one route, things really clear up, since he can view the neighboring lines from a much better vantage (different, not necessarily better).
For a place like Sespe, a small local crag in a non-urban area, a guide isn't really required. If you can't just get out of the car and see where you want to go, you got no soul, go back to the gym, fer gosh sakes. In urban areas, seems to me, routes get crowded into one another subway-style, so of course you would need a guide. The simpler, the better. Who wants history for a place only climbers care about as an outdoor gym, as in Indian Rock. There's usually always most of the time someone hangin' about who can give you some info, if not most.
And on the Captain, the number of routes is mind-blowing, the technical beta is so abstruse, topos are essential, a must, and required. Think of the tale Sibylle H. just told about her and Bev's journey up the 3-D on the Captain, their getting lost. Well, there wasn't a guidebook entry for it then, apparently, and so they had to rely on gosh knows what for beta after the first third.
Gud guide, God. Prayer helps when you're lost and in the dark and your partner's way the hell down there...
This is me, an older-generation climber, from the days before headlamps, and I know way it's different now, it's all faster. It's all in a day's work if you are doing the pre-dawn start with headlamps, so you'd best have the route wired before you begin! And that's the beauty of the internet, QED.
Photos are more trouble to print and overlay with colored dots, lines, or dashes, and I question their worth except that it is plainly seen where the route goes, but there's not enough beta there for the more complicated routes to be negotiated easily enough.
A place like YV or Zion, where the routes are quite spread out and distant from one another presents the problem of grouping climbs, much like the HS Guide by Roper, for example, based on Voge's work, which sectionalizes the Sierra and gives plenty of beta on what's there. As the years went by, this style again is insufficient because of the increased number of technical routes that have been done since its debut in 1976, which may seem like ancient history to some, but sh#t, he's still alive, so let's have some respect. I love the history, and that can ONLY be presented verbally.
It's a big challenge, Wide-Wise Ed. Buena suerte, senor.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 20, 2012 - 12:33am PT
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When you're young and getting better every climb you don't need tons of info, but on the slow decline years later info seems to become more important...
... hmmm, wonder why?
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 20, 2012 - 12:37am PT
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Experience is the best teacher, Grasshopper.
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Salamanizer
Trad climber
The land of Fruits & Nuts!
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Nov 20, 2012 - 01:39am PT
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I like le_bruces idea of a Static, concise, factual and complete hard copy half of a guide, and a Dynamic, online library for personal opinions, photos and experiences.
The future of information is obviously heavily reliant of online media. It only makes sense to have some sort of website companion to a guide. I never really even thought about it, but to make your own companion website to compliment your guide or team up with an existing website like Mountain Project is an interesting and somewhat visionary idea.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 20, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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le_bruce, you sold me on the idea of a very concise field book with line drawing topos and verbal descriptions for longer routes where needed, then the online database with more photos from different perspectives and trip reports and yadda yadda. But do keep a little history or interesting stories sprinkled in here and there in the print book. One thing that was fun for me when I first started climbing was to read hellish FA accounts that made me feel more cool about being able to do the thing. Come to think of it, maybe that is still in the mix somewhere.
That's essentially what supertopo has got going, but I think the main failure is to not make the route database expandable. And if the new route data can remain structured and extensible, you can add stuff like "slab crux rating", "OW crux rating," "hand crack crux rating", "finger crack crux rating" and then do cool queries to dial in the experience you want during your limited vacation time:
e.g., show me routes that meet the following criteria:
between 5.8 and 5.10
south facing
OW crux is 5.8 or greater
First Ascent before 1960
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ec
climber
ca
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Nov 20, 2012 - 06:49pm PT
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Success is not as sweet, unless you've had "your ass handed to you" a few times.
Brad, tell me about it...many unsatisfied with the effort and plenty to complain about, but would they had got it done? And no, I did not plan to have 'lead you by the hand' description/topos either. Thank you.
Russ' take is about right on the content. I noticed as the years went by and more GBs were published there seemed to be those 'new' to climbing who desired/required a staggering amount of info on a route (birth of the pre-CMac Supertopo) in order for them to even consider doing it. I admit to 'doing my homework,' however having too much info can take away from the experience. 'Talking like, premature ejaculation...and you still have to finish the night out with yer date.
 ec
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 20, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
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From one of my favorite guide books:
Check on the fun stories about the routes...
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 20, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
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Open source online guidebook services are a pox on the house of climbing.
Disagree. It's a great resource. Bigger campfire.
Today, for example, I'd emailed a feller who'd posted up about a route in the middle of nowhere that he had the FA of. Now I know more of that routes history. I think that's pretty neat and the likelyhood I'd have run into him at random, pretty slim.
Consensus grades, consensus quality ratings...all good.
And, if you want your climbing to be off the radar...then...fine.
But, open source or user built route beta ain't no pox on climbing, not in my world. Not in your's either if you don't contribute or use the resource. I guess the risk is, someone will find your precious places and beta spray to the world about them. That might be a pox on YOUR world, but, not the gen. pop of the climbing hoards, soon to overpopulate your favorite off-the-radar crags...(ha ha).
But, I'm curious...why is it a "very very bad idea"?
-Brian in SLC (point rank #30 on the 'proj, ha ha. Where's Blitzo? #2, baby, I guess he tries harder, yuck yuck...)
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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Nov 20, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
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Fair enough!
Even with gobs of beta, climbing a route for the first time for me is enough of that unknown some days...I tells ya!
We all have our little secrets...ha ha...
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ec
climber
ca
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Nov 20, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
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DMT, If I told you, I'd have to kill you.
ec
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Nov 20, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
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I used to have this fantasy of destroying the AAC library, just to preserve awhile longer those few remaining blanks spots on the map. There's precious little mystery left in the world.
Take your time, Ed.
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Greg Barnes
climber
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Nov 21, 2012 - 12:34am PT
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Lots of us have these sorts of mixed feelings on reporting routes. One measure would be just how many of your FAs have remained secret, and for how long. By "secret" I mean known only to you and a partner or three. Go check your notes and give us some numbers - a percentage if nothing else.
Of course this may tell us more about who climbs in ultra remote areas than it does about who keeps their routes secret!
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 21, 2012 - 12:53am PT
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of the 31 routes I've participated in putting up, 10 are known,
nearly all of them are in Yosemite Valley, some in Tuolumne
one in Vedauwoo was reported as an FA probably after we did it
all these routes are in accessible areas, some right next to well known routes, others a short hike to the cliff, but there are those that take an hour or more to get to
of course the list of climbs to do is longer still, and that is usually where the "secret" comes in, somehow we have the misguided belief that someone else will snake an FA we could do... well it has happened, but usually because no one knew...
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Nov 21, 2012 - 05:23am PT
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This idea of "killing the unknown" is an important one to explore I think.
I can advocate for both sides of it. I love being lost on a good mystery, but some information creates a bond. Knowing who put it up, knowing someone who epic'd on it, or even asking around and getting a hint of recognition but no beta or knowledge of anyone who's done it... these things add a dimension to the experience for me. In addition to my own experience, I get to share in the experience of those who came before me, excitedly tell my stories to those who might care, gobble up the stories that come out of the woodwork in the wake of my sharing, and so it goes. I am enriched by the sharing. And I enrich others, or at least enjoy the illusion of doing so!
Maybe these are all the informal parts of sharing, the romance that somehow gets lost when a route is reduced to properties in a database object? It turns a spark of life, a deeply personal experience, a thread of human connectedness, to a sterile piece of information? Maybe that's a worst case scenario. The fear is based on some bit of something real, and it needs to be protected against.
So I can go that far to agree with Dingus.
But it doesn't have to be that sterile. Maybe a database entry with fields of numbers to represent all the properties is over the top killing it. But trip reports addressed to anyone who reads them is not? It is a cry in the dark, declaring our presence, seeking like-minded individuals with whom to share this grand adventure of life? There is using the power of technology to bind us together, to find our social needles in haystacks or ropes in the talus fields.
And the world doesn't stand still. Frontiers shift and move, and we have to move our crusty asses to the new wild places as the old frontiers become settled establishments. The process is fast in the big picture, but we have time to enjoy our solitude.
As I write that, it rings dangerously hollow. I fear the end of being able to go to a place and really find solitude. Unexpected encounters and friendships in the mountains are great, but there is also magic in being in an open expanse with no sign of other humans. Sometimes our spirits are like snails that need to be left undisturbed for a while before the feelers pop out. There is a real risk of losing that as more people seek the same happiness that we seek. I am part of the problem, you are part of the problem, we all are part of it.
I don't know the answer. Just late night rambling when I was too tired to get up and go to bed! I'll dream on it and see if anything new pops up for me.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Nov 21, 2012 - 08:41am PT
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Greg, most of my routes fall into the 'partner or three' category. But that's partly because I live in a total backwater. I could spray all day about some crumbly 60' cliff with an hour approach at 11K' and not too many people would trudge up there to check it out. I also pay for my own gear and am under no obligation to subject others to my hot flashes.
More to the point, I like the 'sharing among' friends model of route dissemination. But let's face it, Yosemite is a very public place and an update is long overdue.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Nov 21, 2012 - 09:48am PT
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This is the gold standard for guides. Randy's climbed almost all of the routes, or knows a bunch of people that have, they are routes worth doing and its a beautiful book to get you excited. Just enough info to keep you safe and preserve the right kinds of adventures.
I've been obsessing over this guide the last 2 seasons and have been plucking off classics like i'm ordering hor-douvres at a fancy restaurant (I haven't the slightest idea how to spell that word).
A great guide is like a freind showing you around, telling you the convenient routes, the classic routes, the beautiful routes and history - LOTS and LOTS of history.
That's what makes these areas so special to me - the climbs not only have character, but are characters themselves. Sidewinder, Solid Gold, Left ski track, north overhang, catch a falling star... more like a group of friends you haven't met yet but are sure to love.
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MikeL
climber
SANTA CLARA, CA
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Nov 21, 2012 - 10:07am PT
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Less was more for us. Something that is light and small. (Guess that goes with the first requirement.) I found we had to rummage around in an area to get a feel for the climbing wherever we were. I think we had to do the same thing with the guides. Different minds = different guide styles = different perspectives. We had to get in synch with both before we felt comfortable heading up something we had never done. I guess that's a reasonable description with any author and story.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
sawatch choss
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Nov 21, 2012 - 10:30am PT
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"... just don't give away the approach"
This is just plain weird. WTF is a guidebook for, exactly, if not to get you through a certain physical space? Folks who want to go shwacking around trying to find a cliff don't need a guidebook. The ones who buy the guide can reasonably expect a modicum of approach beta.
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