The Pit - Joshua Tree

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rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Original Post - Oct 28, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
The Joshua Tree Pit
Robert Fonda

Over the last ten years climbers have enjoyed unscheduled camping on land owned by a local climber just south of the village of Joshua Tree. This was our intention when we dug out “The Pit” so that neighbors would not be affected.

Since then the area has come to resemble a landfill and no one has found staying there to be enjoyable.

That was not our intention.

So that this will not continue we have restored the area to good condition and we wish to have the following rules followed by users. A sign will be put in place on the site to inform everyone.

If this does not work out to the benefit of all, our choice will be to close the area entirely.

We do not want to do this.

The Rules:

RESPECT THE NEIGHBORS!

Pick up your trash.

Pick up other peoples trash.

DO NOT LEAVE YOUR "PERSONNAL WASTE" on the property

Pitch tents out of view of the neighbors.

No storage of personal items on the property

Park cars out of the view of our neighbors.

Campfires are fine provided they are in the communal fire pit and provided they don't become bonfires.

Loud noise and music after 9:00 PM is NOT acceptable.

Be courteous of others staying at The Pit.

RESPECT THE NEIGHBORS!

Thank you,
Robert Fonda
dave

climber
Earth
Oct 28, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
Loud noise and music after 9:00 PM is NOT unacceptable.

Perfect so parties all night long, cool....
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2012 - 10:13pm PT
Thank you for the correction!
grover

climber
Northern Mexico
Oct 28, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
You forgot to add: No Canadians allowed eva!
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
moving thru
Oct 28, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
Sorry to hear this wonderful solution to finding a free bivy in such close proximity to an incredible climbing area is having problems.

Where is Dick Cilley? Why can't he be the winter camp host.

Robert, mi amigo, I talked to Hildie today. Can't wait to see yo guys.

Peace and Joy, lynnie

Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 28, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
Just close the site. Some folks don't even respect themselves let alone someone else's property. I rather see it closed then see the owner pay for someone else's BS.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
We will see what happens over the next few months.
zip

Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
Oct 28, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
looking forward to staying there again soon Robert, but i forgot the Wifi password. do you have it?
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 28, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
"You forgot to add: No Canadians allowed eva!"

candians should be purged, not heard...
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:08am PT
Those who've squatted there in the past should be ashamed that jstan and friends have had to clean up their messes. Probably a minority, and including non-climbers, but still...
apogee

climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:16am PT
It always sucks to hear about how the well-intended efforts of someone in the climbing community ultimately becomes subverted by those who don't have any real interest in anything except themselves.

As a user group, climbers have prided themselves as self-regulating. Clearly, that ethic has degraded (or evaporated altogether) in recent years.

Your intents and efforts are exceptional, but are being abused, to the detriment of the climbing community, the neighbors, and the landowners. Shut the place down.
treez

Trad climber
99827
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:30am PT
You could always herd cats if this doesn't work out.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Oct 29, 2012 - 01:42am PT
Seriously, Robert and Wally have done a concerted effort to make the place much cleaner and better this season. Please respect what Robert is saying. They didn't have to. They're doing it for climbers and hoping everyone plays along with the basic rules of the place. The climbing community in JT is VERY fortunate to have it. I spent a couple of winters bivying there in the earlier times when I'd come in late on Fridays and knew I wouldn't have a campsite. The place is a blessing.

The garbage bin is even clean. Hope everyone who stays there this season has a good, clean, well slept time there.
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 01:52am PT
I totally appreciate it and yes, I've stayed there myself. Sadly there was one time when I bumped into a creepy dude there that gave me the Heebee Geebees so bad that I opted for a hotel room and double locked the door. Some folks have bad seeping out of their pores. I just wish the owners the best. No one should be taken advantage of, ever.

AFS
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 01:57am PT
P.S. Hey Locker, is she cute?
jstan

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:00am PT
For this I think I must take Joe Brown as my text. Joe and the Rock and Ice refused to accept that persons not having the right father, not having money, or not leading the right kind of life could be summarily excluded. Excluded without any of us taking the time to examine that practice for error.

For whatever reason the Pit was actually dug, it does in fact work against the exclusion of people from pursuits they love. It is for that reason Dave, Robert, and myself have invested ourselves in an effort to restore the Pit to that which it should be. That which it must be.

The effort involved serious considerations. I had to dig through several hundred pounds of trash in which rats and mice had lived. I wore a respirator but hantavirus can infect one through the eyes, mucous membrane, and through cuts in the skin.

At Facelift the NPS liason with Facelift rolled her eyes when I described what I had done. If the hantavirus latency is eight weeks, I am now 75% of the way to a clean bill of health. Nothing worthwhile comes easily.

Credit: jstan

In fact the Pit is an opportunity. It is a valuable resource. It is a valuable resource around which the community can rally. And by so doing we will make ourselves whole.

The Pit
Credit: jstan

Now it is up to you.


Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 02:06am PT
jstan, we don't deserve you. Thanks... AFS
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 06:42am PT
Again, we will wait and see what happens. JSTAN has done a remarkable job cleaning the place up, so has Dave.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Oct 29, 2012 - 06:59am PT
hey there say, jstan.... whewwwwwww....
what a job! thanks for being someone that cares...

hope this works out better for all...

sad:
it is unbelievable how humans take to turning everything
into trash... :(
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 07:50am PT
John has done an incredible job, and has brought new life to the pit. If this is going to work, it is going to require some "policing". I'll do my best during the week, but weekends are a problem since I am usually guiding and out the door very early in the mornings.

Getting the word out is a start. I anticipate some end of season clean up, but with a little effort maybe this can be pulled together.

If not, then oh well. There's always the dry lake bed for people to trash.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 29, 2012 - 08:54am PT
Accessible, free camping for J-Tree climbers is a rare gift. I don't know why so many people have zero appreciation for privileges or why they are impelled to create a pile of filth in their path. Boggles the mind. I guess they just lack respect for themselves and other human beings so they don't care, but that mentality ruins it for the good folks. Hopefully the community as a whole will help enforce the eviction notice for the as#@&%es since RLF can't be policing the place every moment.

Big kudos to Jstan and cleaning crew and thank to the property owner and Robert for giving it one more go.

In fact the Pit is an opportunity. It is a valuable resource. It is a valuable resource around which the community can rally. And by so doing we will make ourselves whole.


Bears repeating again and again.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 29, 2012 - 09:03am PT
So Robert.. do you need a "NO CANADIANS ALLOWED" sign?

I have a few extras.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:22am PT
Never stayed there, just went into the park and walked 30 min on the boy scout trail if I didn't have a camping spot : /


A hike is easier than impact on someone I've never met, but I can see the benefit of the convenience. Certainly extended and seasonal stays are going to be a pain in the ass if you are packing each night, but The Pit sounds skeeeetchy.


Ain't no meth in North Wonderland.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:42am PT
The garbage bin is even clean

Well, that's kinda a big part of the problem, ain't it? You got a trash bin that you expect random people not to put trash in.

If ya'll aren't going to actually have the thing serviced, get it the hell out of there and you'll be a lot further toward creating an expectation of "pack it out".
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:59am PT
Come to think of it, maybe we should kick some hippy ass...
James Wilcox

Boulder climber
The Coast
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
New Name? Calling it, "The Pit" may have inadvertently contributed
to the problem.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 29, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
Haha, just the dorks that are trashing it :) them ain't no real "hippies"...
jstan

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
The dumpster reached the state it did because that model was no longer serviced by Burrtec. As soon as it was empty Robert persuaded them to truck it away. There is no longer a dumpster there.

If I may I would like to reframe this problem a little.

Coyote Hole is arguably one of the most important and educational destination points in the area. Furthermore, since it is almost in the village itself, potentially it could help support the local economy and even change how people look at themselves.

Last week I took 420 pounds of dumped rugs out of Coyote Hole
Credit: jstan

and then picked up fifty pounds of broken beer bottles from two immense glass fields. The fields were enough to take one's breath away. Now I'll admit anger comes easily but face it. Anger is not a constructive or useful response. Since glass begets more glass, picking it up is a useful response.

And consider. Suppose you had a sh#t job in a hot place with a boss who would like nothing better than to be rid of you. You don't have a pot to piss in. And to top it all off your only escape is to go for a walk in a dump filled with broken glass. You would do anything to have a Julius Caesar moment. To stand there before an army of adoring soldiers chanting, "We who are about to die, salute you!"

Then you look down at the now empty but still heavy beer bottle in your hand.

What are you going to do?

We have to face human problems as if they were human. And get on with what has to be done.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 29, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
As soon as it was empty Robert persuaded them to truck it away. There is no longer a dumpster there.

Can we still kick some hippie ass though? There's a couple in town that need a good beatin'.
jstan

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
EL:
I surely understand what you are saying. But no. Doing that only makes the problem ten times worse.

Edit:
Fluoride was right: we DON'T deserve you.

Actually it was Anastasia who voiced that. I really appreciated her positive comment. The opposite has been rather the more frequent.

I heard Bridwell had 3 tons of abandoned sh#t in there

Not true. The three of us had to deal with the possibility we would affect possessions belonging to someone. Personal possessions in a open area really cause problems. We knew Jim had spent some effort there so we left alone everything we thought might be his till we had contacted him. Everything else looked exactly as though it had been abandoned(dumped). There were cans of food left near one of the two tables someone had built. Since tables are useful to everyone, we left them. We also left the cans of food. I sure would not advise anyone to eat that food after two years or so in the desert sun. Whoa Nelly! Eventually someone needs to dispose of those cans. Hopefully before they have exploded.

Here's a photo that gives you a feeling for this adventure. When it was taken the dumpster was still full to the brim.
Credit: jstan
gonzo chemist

climber
Fort Collins, CO
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
The one and only time I tried to stay at the pit (a few years ago), I was harassed and threatened by Dick Cilley. And I was told that I had to leave immediately, and that NO ONE was allowed to stay there. Except him of course.

The bummer was, I just needed a few hours of shut-eye. Not even gonna set up camp or anything.


As long as ass-hats like D.C. populate that bivy area, I'll sleep in other places.

JStan, thank you for all your noble work. Fluoride was right: we DON'T deserve you.

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Oct 29, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
Need a volunteer camp host.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
Want the job? It comes with fringe benefits. A patch of dirt, and all the climbing you can stand.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Oct 29, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
Darn!

I wish the pit was in Apple Valley.
I'd volunteer.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 29, 2012 - 07:51pm PT
@gonzo

The mental picture of some long-forgotten climber sitting on a throne of Hefty bags and Diapers, a Burger King Crown and golf club scepter in tow (a big 'ol driver, none the less) lording over his domain of glass and feces makes me kind of tear up inside.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
The image you portray is a thing of beauty...
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
Wow, guys... Wow. I'm speechless before such a sight.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 29, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
Despite his youth, Gregg waxes nostalgic...
D'Wolf

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
I've been around since the start, before the "pit" was even dug. I was even asked to oversee the place. Great idea if you believe that climbers are a bunch of communal hippies from Oregon; bad idea if you believe they are a bunch of rebellious renegades who don't want rules placed on their lives.

Camp IV without the rangers to keep 'em in check... 'nough said. Good luck "policing" the area. The type you're concerned about don't care and you can do nothing about it. Those of us who do care won't stay there because of the jackasses that will.

I've never stayed in Camp IV and never will; I pay for a campsite to avoid the "trash" that inhabit the place (obviously, this doesn't apply to everyone). Same with the pit. Stayed there once or twice WAY back; pretty sketchy even then and has only gotten worse.

Get rid of the dumpster; people see it and expect it to be serviced. If they see it full they'll just leave their trash beside it (wouldn't you?). It's a health hazard.

Same with a portable toilet. If you get one, ya gotta service it; if you don't, people will leave their business wherever - another "no win" scenario and another health hazard.

The original vision, The Joshua Tree Climber's Ranch (to replace the Gordon Ranch and inspired by the Teton Climber's Ranch) never really happened.

Thom
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Oct 29, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
The BIG problem is that it is too near L.A. I did not meet the same kind of creepy, drama filled insanity in Utah, Montana or Wyoming. I think the reason is that dang city. It does something to people's minds.
AFS
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Oct 29, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
The BIG problem is that it is too near L.A. I did not meet the same kind of creepy, drama filled insanity in Utah, Montana or Wyoming.

Actually Ana, I was in the Courthouse in Joshua Tree the other day and the folks lining the walls made LA undesirables look like boy scouts.

Free camping in the high desert isn't what it was even 10 yrs ago. I never had the pleasure of staying at the pit but I think RF has gone above and beyond to make it a safe place to stay. Unfortunately, his efforts went unappreciated by too many folks for far too long. Maybe it is time to move on, literally.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 29, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
The type you're concerned about don't care and you can do nothing about it. Those of us who do care won't stay there because of the jackasses that will.

Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
Pretend this is an "audio rant" and it will be more fun.

{rant}
Here is the problem with the pit.... the premise of the Pit is beyond cool and all the work people have put in previous to this most recent foaming over is much appreciated by many. But, and here is the big one, lots of people gravitating to the pit these days are basically dirty in it for me lazy f*#kers. Yep, true story. The pit was never intended to be a last stop for the loser train or for the entitled generation to take shits, leave abandoned f*#king cars and act like idiots. But, this is what goes on there. Dirty trustafarians parking their Sportsmobiles up the hill, tossing out Whole Foods packaging and loudly plotting their dinner of seared ahi at the Crossroads well into the wee hours. And there are the young entitled bolt clippers leaving their vehicle abandoned for months on end until all the widows get broken out and every scrap of value is taken out of the carcass. They of course never came back to take care of the problem. It is also not a factory for would be artists nor a pulpit for delusional preachers bent on carpeting and furnishing the entire swath of dirt. Sure, the random tweaker may roll through and scare the lilly livered right out of their 2010 Jettas, but f*#k sake, you are young and fit climbers. Take some pride in your Pit and beat the piss out of the tweaking bastards and send a message. And the guy crying about Dick Cilley... Too damn bad. He was an exception to the above and actually tried to keep idiots from stuffing an already full dumpster with more overflowing trash, knowing each additional Santanas wrapper was just one mild zephyr away from the neighbors front yard. He at least had the sack to say something about what he perceived as trouble rolling in. If more people would do this a lot of the problems would go away. Have some f*#king pride in yourself and the Pit. If you see someone being a dick, go and tell them to wise up. If someone is being a problem, confront them. What are they going to do? Hit you? Have you never healed before? A shiner barely lasts a week. Sort the sh#t out before it becomes a big problem. Last years pit drama was such a f*#king joke. Girls hiding in vans while scary menaces roved the pit putting out bad vibes. God damn that sh#t is wacked! And reading about it on the internet is even weirder. Keep a lid on the drama, take care of your own sh#t, and if you are not up to the task, tell somebody there is a psycho in the Pit. There are people around that will sort it out for you. The Pit is a gift for climbers and should not be a carbuncle on the land owners ass. So, next time you are there, pick up some trash, pick up after yourself, keep your anus closed, keep out of sight, be quiet, and basically don't be a f*#king as#@&%e. {/rant}

EDIT: for those of you that may have missed it, here is the NSFW "audio rant format" from a previous thread referred to above:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1886785&msg=1908817#msg1908817
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
I read Russ' rant while listening to REM's 'Stand'.


Made for an easy read.

I think he's onto something.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:40pm PT
Excellent juxtaposition, pud. I can dig it.
So it's a Hole in the Desert?
Sounds awesome.
zip

Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:45pm PT
Those Sportsmobile owners are the worst.
jstan

climber
Oct 29, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
I had something with the same message all written but decided someone with real Joie de vivre needed to write it. And sure enough it suddenly appeared. PUD's music was super.

Mid-morning Wednesday going back to Coyote Hole. Going to finish that f-----g glass. Maybe I'll find a working ipod. Trash picking to REM would be so cool.

Edit:
Anders:
Don't violate the Prime Directive.

"No spend money."
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Oct 30, 2012 - 12:34am PT
Memo to self: Get R.E.M. CD for FaceLift next year. jstan likes it. Who'd a thunk it?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Oct 30, 2012 - 01:24am PT
Audio rant TL:DR - Do hill sprints and produce testosterone. It will cleanse many ailments.
gf

climber
Oct 30, 2012 - 04:33am PT
Nice one RW!
EDIT-Such a treat to see clear writing (ranting) urging folks to take accountability for their actions and to sending a clear message to the miscreants that can spoil a great scene.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 30, 2012 - 05:45am PT
Thank you Russ!
dickcilley

Social climber
Wisteria Ln.
Oct 30, 2012 - 08:37am PT
the 2 winters I spent at the Pit were really quite nice.I think people should complain a little less.people complain about the neighbors too but there was never a problem with them.The nearest are climbers and great people.
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:10am PT
Russ for Prez
ME Climb

climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:30am PT
Russ for Prez and Robert for God!

Good job guys. Good luck with the policing efforts

Eric
eKat

Trad climber
BackInTheDitch BackInTheDirt BackInTheDay
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:53am PT
carbuncle

carbuncle |ˈkärˌbə ng kəl|
noun
1 a severe abscess or multiple boil in the skin, typically infected with staphylococcus bacteria.
2 a bright red gem, in particular a garnet cut en cabochon.
DERIVATIVES
carbuncular |kärˈbə ng kyələr| adjective
ORIGIN Middle English (sense 2) : from Old French charbuncle, from Latin carbunculus ‘small coal,’ from carbo ‘coal, charcoal.’
gonzo chemist

climber
Fort Collins, CO
Oct 30, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
"He at least had the sack to say something about what he perceived as trouble rolling in."

Mr. Cilley needs to re-evaluate his powers of perception.

Other than that, nice rant.


On a separate note: I've interacted D.C. in other contexts and found him to be quite the cordial fellow.



Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Oct 30, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
On a separate note: I've interacted D.C. in other contexts and found him to be quite the cordial fellow.

I thought you said he was an "asshat"?

I heard the story about this purge last night. According to my source you rolled in on the ass end of a police raid that threw everyone out of the pit. Cilley though, reminded the tools that it was private property and it was "them" that needed to leave. And they did. I hear he was a bit touchy after that. Bad timing? Or maybe he just didn't like your looks or attitude? Let's ask him...

Fill us in Dick... and where are you anyway?
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
moving thru
Oct 30, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
Jstan, appreciate all you and others have said and done. Why did you move to JTree? Jess wondering?

Speaking of Hanta.....I'll be home free end of Nov. Crazy stuff. Lynne

Edit: On a lighter note, is anyone having a Halloween Party this week? Have a couple days off. Yo can email or post here. :D
gonzo chemist

climber
Fort Collins, CO
Oct 30, 2012 - 11:22pm PT
Russ,

It wasn't my intention to start a fight on here or anything like that. It was a bit out of line to refer to D.C. as an "ass-hat." I apologize for that.

If there was a police incident, then I was unaware of that. I can certainly understand him being a bit pissed off about something like that.

I just didn't expect to be accosted for wanting to sleep for a couple hours.


-Nick
jstan

climber
Oct 31, 2012 - 12:44am PT
Personally I have found confronting people is a bad idea. Just who the hell are you is the question
immediately asked. And you don't have an answer. Then both sides are into emotion and the
attempt not to be found to be "wrong." Hopeless.

I find people who are good at this quite amazing. The first step seems to be one of showing and
having a real interest in the other person. The interest can't be faked. If you do feel the interest,
you can then exchange names, ask a few questions and tell about your hopes for how the Pit can be
improved and made more enjoyable. If someone is four or five sigma out there this won't work. But
that many sigma means this won't happen that often.

The trick is you really have to have an interest in the other person. If you can't do that you are left
with getting them to stand downwind from the campfire as you piss into it.

I have found that to be difficult. It takes really good timing.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Oct 31, 2012 - 01:07am PT
Intimidated by THIS guy?:



Well, I guess those rhinestone flip flops are a little scary.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 31, 2012 - 07:29am PT


I like the fact that the name is perfect.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 09:29am PT
the pit exists in a gray area, but some of the best things in life are like that.

before i understood the routine, cilley woke me up in the middle of the night and told me to repark my car. he's a great fellow and a climber of amazing dedication. when he looks after the pit, it's a good thing.

the pit has other eccentricities, which russ has taken some liberty to criticize. personally, i think the eccentrics involved are worth the tolerance.
James Wilcox

Boulder climber
The Coast
Oct 31, 2012 - 11:58am PT
Eccentricities are ok as long as the surrounding neighbors are cool with it, not necessarily the climbing community at large. It's one thing to piss off other people camping there, but when the people in the neighboring homes start getting mad that puts the property owner of The Pit in a terrible position.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Oct 31, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
I am going to be around again for some of the winter, expect to arrive mid November. Thank you to all who made such huge efforts to clean up the trash that was left. I am very glad to know that the dumpster is also taken away.

Russ, I would like to talk to you at some point. I was pretty amazed, during that whole thing last year, at being cast as a trouble-making drama queen.


rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Oct 31, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
Actually Happigirl, I'm the one you need to talk to. I for one appreciated your efforts to get people to act in a more sensible fashion. Let me know when you hit town if you plan to stay there again, I'll make sure you have my phone # if there are issues.

eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Oct 31, 2012 - 03:31pm PT
I would think a tree would really spruce things up...or maybe some Rasperry carbuncle.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Oct 31, 2012 - 04:05pm PT
Okay Robert - will get in touch when I land.

jstan

climber
Oct 31, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
Now that the Pit is on a good path I have been working on Coyote Hole. Today I saw perhaps the most tragic thing I have ever seen.

After I had actually scrambled up some rocks( woohoo!) and finished the right canyon I ran into a boulderer.

(That was not tragic. Bear with me)

He said there was trash in the left canyon. This is what I found.
1. Crayons
2. A box for a baby stroller
3. Socks for a baby
4. Trash everywhere
5. Materials from a 7th or 8th grade class
6. Broken beer bottles




and a syringe











Lynn asked me why I left Santa Barbara. The house I was in there was finished. Everyone you meet there on the street was a CEO. Everyone was hugely educated.

There wasn’t a thing there for me to do.

It was pretty, sure.

But life isn’t only about pretty.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
moving thru
Oct 31, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
Thanks for your info, jstan.

How great that you have chosen to move around this planet, to grow and broaden your life making this world we inhabit more lovely. Super example to many, showing that a persons life can continue to evolve as you try out new ideas.

Blessings, lynnie
mojede

Trad climber
Butte, America
Oct 31, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
Hey, dickcilley , we missed you up here this year--hopefully, you can come back and climb the dozen(s) of cracks that you missed...

Kevin
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
moving thru
Oct 31, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
Does it really matter :D ?? Glasses do not the person make. But then I'm being too serious on a holiday night. lynne

susan peplow

climber
Joshua Tree, CA
Oct 31, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
Hey Coz,

I've pretty much been out of the beat-up-on-Coz thing but this one really gets my goat. JStan has the one of the locals who's ACTUALLY doing something. Donating his time and efforts REGULARLY to clean up MY community. The man is done & gone with his community service before I'm even done with my cyber-cafe morning.

So, Mr. Hypocrite who was just patting his own back a few posts ago about being able to avoid the Pit with "a few days of guiding" get off your high-horse! JStan is a pillar of this community to be respected and admired and shame on you for beating him down. And for that matter, Lynne who appreciates the effort. For what's left as your own reputation I recommend you retract now as "joking' while you still can.

~Susan Peplow
jstan

climber
Oct 31, 2012 - 11:59pm PT
With the internet we have an important new tool. Instantaneous communication. Now I expected a mixture of positive and negative reactions when we all first went to work on the Pit. The topic of this thread. The reactions are nearly all positive. This implies there is interest to do more out there and communication is the key to helping that happen.

There is a second Pit in the area and the JT Clean Team is working on it. Today they worked on Rt. 62 at La Contenta. I found the road West of that intersection was ten times dirtier than the roads maintained by the Clean Team. The residents of Joshua Tree have a very real reason to applaud that great group.

Today in Coyote Hole I saw more ancient rock art I had not before noticed. The area is an irreplaceable asset. If we would give them the chance the people who lived in the area long ago could, in a sense, now become included among us. What I described earlier, suggests we today, need all the help we can get.

http://www.petroglyphs.us/photographs_petroglyphs_coyote_hole_joshua_tree_CH.htm

Coz, I am sorry that I am unable to please you. If I read you correctly you are a person who goes out and does what you think you need to do. I have not had a negative word to say about what you either do or say. I plan to continue giving you this regard.

Captain...or Skully

climber
Nov 1, 2012 - 12:00am PT
purpose.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Nov 1, 2012 - 02:16am PT
Word Sooze.

That just seemed so mean spirited towards a guy who is doing something so positive for the benefit of so many.

Keep up the good work jstan!
jstan

climber
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:09am PT
Purpose gives one the power to act.

Purpose gives a community the power


to do the impossible.
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Nov 1, 2012 - 04:45am PT
Jstan, thank you for so much of the work you're doing out there. You're not patting yourself on the back. You're doing work to make a place we love and even better place. You have all my respect and back patting. If I see you out there I WILL pat you on the back and give you a huge hug for all you've done. Cheers bro.

rurprider

Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
Nov 1, 2012 - 05:05am PT
jstan.....I've never stayed at The Pit, but appreciate what you and Robert are doing and that the climbing community has this resource available because of you, both. "THANK YOU!
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2012 - 07:06am PT
Hmmm, I don't really see John patting himself on the back at all. What I see is someone who is stepping up to the plate and doing his level best to support the very community that the detractors on this thread claim to care so much about.

That strikes me as very hypocritical.

If anything John deserves every bit of the praise he has received and more. He came to me with a plan. He had already done his home work on what it would take. I told him, go for it, and he did. It's just that simple.

Now we have a clean slate to work from. Where it leads totally depends on the user group of the pit.

Hopefully with a little more interaction things can improve.

Only time will tell.

If it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. If things do improve this season, then everybody wins.
Silver

Ice climber
Nov 1, 2012 - 10:10am PT
Why don't they need to talk about it here? Big surprise the pit exists people use it its been abused and the time to put people on notice for poor behavior affecting the neighbors was and is the right thing to do.

You should find a job back peddling and editing Coz your really good at it.

Not as good at is as you are climbing but pretty good none the less.

Did you notice the Muir saw another free accent?



J. Werlin

Social climber
Cedaredge, CO
Nov 1, 2012 - 10:11am PT
"But really why do u guys need to talk about this here?"

Maybe because this forum is about climbing and the climbing community?

At its best, anyway.

Big cheers to JStan. You are an exceptional example of what focus and energy can accomplish.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 1, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
From considerable experience, I suspect jstan only talks about what he does because part of his role is as a teacher and role model. He's a modest, quiet character, doing what he thinks needs to be done, and hoping that others will join in. And he does an enormous amount of useful work, both directly and as a sort of ambassador.

He once mentioned that having crews working on the highways out of Yosemite worked quite well, as it was high visibility, i.e. good advertising for the FaceLift.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 1, 2012 - 12:04pm PT
Well Scott, the Internet represents nothing more than a very large scale platform for communication.

A very long time ago we (humans) used things like smoke signals, foot runners, etc. As time has progressed, communication techniques have progressed as well.

Somebody here already mentioned that this is a climbing website.

Your comment that has raised the ire of others may have been intended as a stab at humor, but I think the rest of us took it as a ad hominem attack on John and a few others.

It is unfortunate that you seem to not understand why this topic, very climbing related, has come to a *gasp* climbing forum.

The intent is to raise awareness of a very real problem. Then try to deal with it. Since this is a communal problem, it needs to be addressed in that fashion.

Personal money has been spent out of pocket by both myself, John, and the owner over the years to attempt to provide at least some place for climbers to stay outside of the park. Things have changed since you lived here. The park service is dealing with record numbers of visitors and camping is now a precious commodity. Climbers tend to be the ones who wish to spend more prolonged visits than the NPS is giving us.

I find it rather beguiling that you fail to understand this.

I have refrained from responding to the negative comments made by a few because it detracts from the intent and purpose of what we are trying to accomplish for the community as a whole. For those who seem bent on spewing negativity and venom with regards to this situation and have nothing constructive to add, then there help is not requested or required.
jstan

climber
Nov 1, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
This matter reminds me of what Abe Lincoln called his "public opinion bath." All through his time in office Lincoln dedicated one afternoon each week to hearing whatever people off the street wanted to tell him. That contact made possible his amazingly astute conduct of the struggle. He could not get too far out in front of what the people had decided they were willing to support.

Through the magic of the internet everyone can now receive opinion baths. We all could not have hoped for a better experience than that Scott's post has produced.

Thank you Scott. That was a valuable contribution.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 1, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
Locker, good humor isn't necessarily obvious. ;-)
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 1, 2012 - 01:03pm PT
I will not post further and yes saying that choosing to work rather than living at the Pit is not arrogent or hypocritical it's just my two cents.

Agreed.... you can like the idea of the pit, the people there, even the dirtbags, it doesn't mean that it's a GREAT idea to be a mooch...


I have friends that couch surf and refuse to work... love 'em to peices, but c'mon.
jstan

climber
Nov 1, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
Eric;

What do you propose we do?

Edit:

About 5PM while on the way to a meeting in the village I saw a car drive in to the Pit. The car stopped in the high area. I went over, introduced myself and asked their names and whether they had stayed there before. They had not but were aware of the place from the internet. So I showed them some pictures, told some of its history and gave them a copy of Fonda's rules. They asked if they should pick up immediately and if they should pay. I said probably wait and just look around before you leave and no money was required. I urged two things. They should treat the place gently but just as importantly they should enjoy their stay.

I try to imitate Thom Scheuer who was the ranger in the Gunks. I was riding in the Preserve truck on the carriage road with him once. He said about a party we passed, "They are not supposed to be doing that. but I'll give them a chance to enjoy themselves. Then I'll come back and bust them."

Thom's busts usually came down to an admonishment that they should try not to enjoy themselves too much. Too much enjoyment is bad for one's health. But he always got the message across.

happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Nov 1, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
The first post in this thread sates there will be a sign with the site rules.
So that this will not continue we have restored the area to good condition and we wish to have the following rules followed by users. A sign will be put in place on the site to inform everyone.

Last year Clark suggested making up a list of "the rules." He said we should make copies and hand them out as people arrive, or put on their cars or what have you. I said that it was a good idea, but we needed to pass it by RLF before doing so. We should have been more proactive, I see now.

For what it's worth, anyone who reads about the Climbers Ranch" on the web does know the rules. And I can say that quite a number of people DO know of the Climbers Ranch from that website. Even the head ranger here in the Gunks asked me about that ranch... Most people assume it is as the website stated, and that the AAC is involved. Perhaps that site should be updated to reflect the current situation, perhaps not. Perhaps removed from view. I don't know - not my call.

But from what I saw the two seasons I have been there, quite a number of people who came there did so because they saw the website.


I am willing to help out during thew times I am there.
happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Nov 4, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
That sucks....

Last year I recall seeing the first signs that people were going around - never mind they ran over plants. I would say that was not done by any of the regulars(though there was one person who constantly would open the gate and let it fall right there, and then run it over. It cracked and I duct-taped it back together thinking that clue would make a lightbulb go on, but the person continued to run the wood over until it broke the tape again.

But this looks a lot worse than how it was back in mid April. What the hell is wrong with people?! Even so, I am guessing it is mostly NOT climbers doing that. I did see people drive through the area while I was there, during daytime.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
Unfortunately these are likely from locals on ATV's and the like. I spoke with Wally, I'm going to drag some large rocks down from the horse ranch on the tractor and at least close the "entrance" off.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
moving thru
Nov 4, 2012 - 11:34pm PT
Yo All,

It's grate to be back in So Cal Tacoland and have computer access.

I'm tired from working today and hope I make sense here. Just want to say this.....

I count the Coz as my friend. Words are words. How people interpret them is pretty complex. Wars are fought cause people misunderstand and chose to believe the worst. Let's believe the best about Coz's joke.

It's an incredible Eve here in Sundiego and I'm enjoying the hootie owl, the moon and the water spraying life to the avocado trees.

L.

( I was going to close with Peace, Joy and Love but I thought it would be over the top for Scotty...hehehe)
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
moving thru
Nov 4, 2012 - 11:38pm PT
Yo, rlf....

Can you find out what size choco or teva our "friend who drinks beer" wears?

Do you think way back in the day there was a Native American Name for Tucker Tech?

Peace, lynne
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 5, 2012 - 01:05am PT
"Do you think way back in the day there was a Native American Name for Tucker Tech?"

Yup.






Dirt.
sethsquatch76

Trad climber
Joshua tree ca
Nov 5, 2012 - 10:00am PT
God made dirt, dirt dont hurt...... Long live Tucker Tech!!!!!


RLF call me!!!!!!! I want to help with the signs.......... I have good ideas!!!!!!
The Warbler

climber
the edge of America
Nov 5, 2012 - 10:34am PT
Stone Brew
klk

Trad climber
cali
Nov 5, 2012 - 11:01am PT
coz is comparing apples and oranges.

jstan posting about trash cleanup is not the same as posting about behind-the-scenes conversations about access.

picking up trash is going to have its most impact if it's done in public view and then further publicized. you're far more likely to get more folks to pitch in too, or to shame others into picking up after themselves in the first place. john does stacks of stuff that he doesn't publicize.

on the other hand, publicizing some kinds of behind-the-scenes conversations over access could make things worse.

so far as the thread itself, i don't live in jt anymore, so have no opinion as to whether running a thread about it on st is likely to generate more problems.
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 5, 2012 - 11:15am PT
Oh Scott you lil devil you ...
jstan

climber
Nov 5, 2012 - 01:31pm PT
Friday night I welcomed a couple of youngsters who drove into the Pit as I was going by, They knew about the facility from the JT Ranch web page. I think the great service the Pit provides is allowing people to go climbing without either planning weeks ahead OR having their karma trashed by being forced to pirate camp. It is a real service.

When I first heard about the Pit and saw the rags and paper hanging from almost every bush my first thought was the one Scott describes. This is god-awful and right down the road from my property! Then I remembered all the years I, with no planning, parked at the steel bridge in the Gunks and just went climbing. Rather than activating my mouth and complaining about youngsters enjoying the same hospitality I had enjoyed, I determined to move my ass. And help make the area what it needed to be. Robert and Dave were of exactly the same mind and we did it. Now that it is cleaned and the next task is joining forces with the users to make the change permanent, having Scott voice his reservations is good. It keeps the issue on the front page and faced with his framing of the issue I think young people will join in with a will. Thanks partly to Scott, it is going to succeed. Keep it up.

Possibly there were other good effects. The work was known inside the JT Clean Team which was working on another Pit. This one apparently has a state of the art collection of dumped sofas. I suspect the completion of our Pit has encouraged them. In a week they plan to go in and get it done.

JT is blessed with incredible resources. People like myself who see them and come here to live have an equally incredible opportunity. A chance to participate in protecting them and helping all to learn what those resources have to teach us.

Kerwin is right when he says this is not the only thing going on. JT is a hot bed right now with many dozens of people working. I think the things others are doing are immensely exciting.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Nov 5, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
How about an "iron ranger" to collect donations there at The Pit?

Bolt a war surplus ammo box to one of the rocks RLF is going to place next to the gate. Use the proceeds to offset the price of hauling all that sh#t to the dump.
jstan

climber
Nov 5, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
What's happening here is so incredibly good!
offset the price of hauling all that sh#t to the dump.

I have a San Bernardino County landfill resident's card so I did not have to pay $60 per ton. The only cost was the gas needed to take it to Landers and the rental on a trailer. It won't break me. The iron ranger could be a good idea. I think Robert and Wally need to sit down and determine how they want the facility to evolve and the service they want to provide. A little long term thinking. And of course the neighbors need always to be figured in.

ruining the place

While this may be part of the problem there are many components. For example one neighbor to the SW leaves their dumpster open. Downwind I found a dense trash plume. They just aren't aware of Bernouli's theorem. Until we know how best to communicate with them we have to wait. Also we picked up trash that was 60 to 70 years old. It was not on Park Service land so that was not a problem. The dead pet in a trash bag beside Hillview? There we just smile and remove. There are bigger things to worry about.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Nov 5, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
KUDOs to JStan!!!!

THANK YOU for your SERVICE.

Cosmic

photo not found
Missing photo ID#272329
hossjulia

Social climber
Eastside (of the Tetons)
Nov 5, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
I walked around the place and picked up trash a couple of years ago. As I fanned out from the pit itself, it was apparent that the bulk of the trash blew in from somewhere else. The dumpster was not overflowing at this point. But it was full and we took our trash somewhere else.

I'm glad the car and rugs are gone. That was gross.

Thanks everyone. I've had a couple of great nights there around the fire.
dickcilley

Social climber
Wisteria Ln.
Nov 6, 2012 - 07:38am PT
I´m running a great crew of Merry Pranksters here in Spain.Don´t think you´re going to see me in the Pit any time soon.As for the Gonzo Chemist incident,Iexplained the situation to him pretty clearly.As to threats,I only said that I would really like that they camp over in Sec.6.He took it pretty hard.I don´t think I´m that menacing really.
hossjulia

Social climber
Eastside (of the Tetons)
Nov 6, 2012 - 09:52am PT
Hi Dick! No, not menacing at all. Have fun in Spain, you lucky dog.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Nov 8, 2012 - 05:25pm PT
The Pit
The Pit
Credit: stich

Credit: stich
Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 8, 2012 - 06:16pm PT
The Pit Sucks
It probably sounds good to losers cause its free
In realty it is giving climbers a bad rap in town because of the type of (so called climbers) it attracts
If you cant afford 75 cents in gas to get to wide open BLM land just out of town where you can camp without sleeping in a rat infested pit then theres a good chance you are a loser
I think The Pit was created to meet girls by the owner if he really wanted to help let climbers stay at his house or next door to where lives
Im sure The Pits neighbors would be glad if it was gone
Would you want it next to your house where you were trying to raise kids
So called climbers drinking , partying, music and what else( if you cant afford to pay for camping or gas or a car)
Think about having it next door next time you think its cool
The Pit SUCKS (stop giving climbers a bad rap)
Please Close THE PIT
jstan

climber
Nov 8, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
Several houses bordering on the Pit had been disposing of their trash by throwing it over the fence. Trash, building materials, whatever. The following was fascinating however.

A dirt bike trail crosses the property as a short cut between the Park Ave/Coyote Hole area and route 62/Yucca Valley. You imagine that dirt bikers commuting on them might be financially challenged teen agers. But I found several large Starbucks containers on the south side of that trail. You can never tell what you will find. I do have to think some dirt bikes must come equipped with cup holders. Very odd.
dickcilley

Social climber
Wisteria Ln.
Nov 9, 2012 - 07:52am PT
Everyone that stayed at the pit when I was there was a climber and climbed alot.Also, I have never heard of any JT.local complaining about the pit.Except ,of course,Cosgrove.
Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 9, 2012 - 07:57am PT
Hey Dick
I dont think the people in town go on supertopo to let you know what they think of the pit
You are a good example of the homeless non climber type interested in the Pits future
Just because you talk about climbing doesnt make you a climber
I am a Joshua Local unlike you
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Nov 9, 2012 - 08:00am PT
That Coz, what a scamp!
goatboy smellz

climber
Nederland-GulfBreeze
Nov 9, 2012 - 08:23am PT
The Pit would be better off if its benefactors followed the Hueco Pete model for dirtbag camping and hanging.

The free form model of letting the pigs rule the farm doesn't seem to be working, so follow what has worked in the past and this means offering a full time host free rent via RV just like the FS does or building a quonset hut with a crash pad upstairs, wifi and cheap $2.00 breakfast burritos.

Hueco Pete got by with $5 bucks a night and if you couldn't pay you could stay for a night or two then move on. You guys either need to get serious and develop that site or end up dead like Hueco Pete.
gf

climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 08:35am PT
No no -let the great socialist petrie dish continue! Just remember -2 legs good
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Nov 9, 2012 - 08:59am PT
Groundup if that IS Dick Cilley, uh he is a climber. Might want to look up his history. Quite a damn good climber at that.
Peace
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 9, 2012 - 09:09am PT
Good work on y'all for keeping that thing, uh, clean-ish.


Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen, IMO... climbers that aren't willing to drive to BLM, section six, hike out a mile in the park, get a part time job, rent a house with a group of 'em, contribute in any way, shape or form (cleaning up your own mess isn't 'contributing')... do I really care if they get a spot?

There are, like, 3 climbers that I would love it if they could crash at something like The Pit year-round. These people are the extenuating circumstances, and if your in your twenties you have no business living off of someone elses property. You have a strong back and rest days, pull some weeds and don't add to the problem.


my .02..........
Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:22am PT
Hey Ron
I lived in Yosemite for 4 years and Joshua for 20 I used to climb about 300 days a year and always saw Dick around scrounging but never climbing , just talking sh#t about climbers
I know his history - a little bit of climbing and a lot of scrounging , scamming and arrogant sh#t talking
Next thing you know you'll tell me a poser like Tucker is a real climber
Peace
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:33am PT
Well glad to see at least yer bad ass and a climber. No harm, no foul! Ya got it right with Tucker.

Peace
Fogarty

climber
BITD
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:42am PT
Ground-up WTF is your deal, who are you?
Tan Slacks

climber
Joshua Tree
Nov 9, 2012 - 10:56am PT
OT, but somewhat related.

I was having huge problems with ATV's and such on my road and property (not far from the pit) Daily these kooks would rip through everything. On the rare occasions that I got them to stop so we could discuss private property and roads, I would get horrendous abuse, even several episodes of vandalism.

it took some time, but I photographed the abusers, and followed them home.. (very difficult, but I was motivated) and then when all my ducks were in a row including an estimate to repair the off road damage to my road and property, I took them to court.

The judge lived in Yucca and obviously knew the problem I was suffering because he barely heard their defense. When I produced the pictures of them destroying everything in their path I won the case and received a judgement. Several of the riders were minors and the parents had to pay. The judgement to repairing my road and trails across my property. This whole process took well over a year, but the kids in the area know I will take more pictures. New people arrive every year, but the story seems to spread. Fun story about rouge ATV'ers

PS Ground up tells it as he sees it, been knowing him a long time.
Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:01am PT
Thanks Tan Slacks so do you
Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 9, 2012 - 11:03am PT
Who are you, Fogarty ?
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Nov 9, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
The PARK needs more camping.

That way the "visitors" would have a legal place to stay with out breaking the law.

Back when it was just a Monument, the BLM let the climbers "work it out" as far as cramming into sites.

Now the FEDS - as usual - have it all fu-ked up cause they are impotent and cant even get out of thier own way. They are incapable of building even so much as a outhouse without spending a bizzillion dollers on studies and such.

Residents of Josh, Yucca and 29 stumps need to complain about the situation to thier local elected officals and keep the pressure on and
not let up.

To all who pick up trash, good on you, your good citizens who do the dirty work that local officals shrug off as not nessary.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Nov 9, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Just got our reservations for Indian Cove camping for five days online yesterday. This is for Dec. 29 to Jan. 3. Just about everything is already booked up! This will be our first trip out there from Colorado.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Nov 9, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
What's the Mayor say about all this?
What ever he deems an appropriate future for the pit, I support.
jstan

climber
Nov 9, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
Just got the notice for the Joshua Tree Clean Team's Wednesday project. This one involves some significant amount of abandoned household furnishings. When I suggested I actually could use another sofa, Gary said I could have one but the sofas would come already supplied with residents. I have edited some info from the notice.

The Joshua Tree Clean Team had a busy month in October, working along the highway at Sunburst, Olympic and Yucca Mesa. A big thank you to the volunteers for the month (named here)

The next Joshua Tree Clean Team clean-up is in a neighborhood. Several years ago the Joshua Tree Clean Team cleaned up a pit in the large field north-west of xxxxxxxx The pit now has miscelloneous furniture and trash that needs to be cleaned. Not only that but there are several other areas to be cleaned, ironicly named, Tin Can Hill, Glass Top, Trash Ravine, and Messy Kids Playground!! With all that to clean we are encouraging the neighbors to join the clean team and have even added an extra hour. The neighborhood clean up will start at 7 a.m. to 9 a.m. . This will be a large clean-up and everyone is needed anytime between the two hour slot. The meeting place is xxxxxxxxxx

The Joshua Tree Clean Team's sponsors include the County of San Bernardino Waste Management, Z107.7, Park Rock Cafe, Cal Trans, Joshua Tree Recreation & Park District and the Joshua Tree Outfitters.

As to the Pit damaging climbers' reputations, at the risk of deflating our ego we should realize the town seems not even to know that we exist. Our reputation seems the most damaged by our own occasionally poor behavior in the Park. A small area rug has taken up residence at the curb on Sunset a couple blocks away from the Pit. Been there for more than six months so it appears no one plans to use it. It looks pretty wet. From my experience in our Pit, I expect it also smells bad. I'll get it Wednesday.

JT is filled with people the great majority possessing positive attitudes. If climbers also possessing an optimistic attitude joined in, it would be neat. The work is most enjoyable.

Edit:
During the couple of weeks we were working I had no interaction with the immediate neighbors. So I did not get any indication about that interface. If they are as dissatisfied as some claim, they need to make complaints.

The people I meet and work with in town don't seem to know we are here. I estimate a good 80% of the trash in the dumpster was generated by climbers. Camping stuff and wrapping from climbing gear was present in quantity.

A few people clearly worked hard to rectify what was happening. It would appear there were even more climbers who were dissatisfied. Enough climbers to have kept the place clean.

Which leaves us a puzzle. Why was it dirty?

And now that it is clean, why the expressions of dissatisfaction? Very curious.




The situation as stated by Robert is very direct.

If climbers want the facility, they will have to keep it clean and respect the neighbors.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Nov 9, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
It was a joke Locker.

I doubt the mayor cares, or should for that matter.

It is actually the surrounding neighbors that should have the final say on the future of the pit. Not the property owner, not the 'community' or any 'caretakers' , imo.
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Nov 9, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
Body odor aside,,,

It's not OK to be a bad neighbor.
If this free camping area causes ANY problems for surrounding neighbors, they should have a say in it's future.
The surrounding neighbors are people that pay to be there, they are not just 'looking for a free place to crash'.

Asking the users of the pit to step up and be good neighbors is the right thing.
If they can't deal with that, f*#k 'em.

Seriously.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 9, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
Do you REALLY think your neighbors should dictate what you do with your own land???.

The neighbors would have a say if camping is a zoning violation. I presume that it is, then again, the high desert plays by different rules.

happiegrrrl

Trad climber
www.climbaddictdesigns.com
Nov 9, 2012 - 06:51pm PT
I have met a few of the neighbors, because I would walk Teddy in the blocks around there, and they are very nice people. I would be vague if asked about my situation - 'staying in JT for winter," "over that way" with a finger point when asked where I live, and such. One did know about the Pit, and he said "Are you one of the climbers?" When I answered yes, he said he was glad there were people there because he felt it kept away the meth heads.

Another would stop and chat whenever he saw me. He had two dogs himself, and loved those dogs(his dogs and Teddy introduced us). Another lady told me to keep a good watch on Teddy because she had seen a mom coyote with pup denned on the border between her property and the Pit.

It probably helps that I am female, reasonably friendly in appearance and behavior, and have an awesome dog who loves everyone he sees, but I think that from what I have seen, there is no hostility by neighbors.
Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 10, 2012 - 07:59am PT
THE PIT SUCKS
Would you want it next door to your house or your moms house
Houses that people work and pay for
Unlike the losers at the Pit that think they should be able to live for free
Because people who stay there lie about where they are staying and then say no one ever said anything to me doesn't mean the people in Joshua Tree like The Pit
I live and climb in Joshua Tree and own a house that I work and pay for and I think The Pit Sucks and should go away
Please close the pit
I'm tired of hearing about how cool it is
The Pit is not cool
jstan

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
Coz: Your member to member is disabled so I can't stay on the down low here.

Went back over the Pit and its parcel again today just to check what may have been done by the recent wind. Got some trash that we had missed and some new stuff thrown on to the property from the roads. Found a screen door that, unfortunately, could not be fixed and reused. Also some wind blown stuff and some that got away from climbers. Pretty stiff winds.

A good way to specify cleanliness is to ask, on average when you stand in one place and look around, how long does it take to see something. The Pit is now at around 15 to 20 seconds. For desert terrain that is really good. Only when you have duff on the ground does it get longer.

Getting broken glass fields spotless is nearly impossible so we have more to do especially along Sunset.

It is possible the Pit is now the cleanest parcel in the neighborhood. Ground-up says he lives in JT. If you have renters in your house you might have him check on your property.

Edit:
Maybe you should have someone else do it.
Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 10, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
jstan
A good way to specify cleanliness is to ask, on average when you stand in one place and look around, how long does it take to see something. The Pit is now at around 15 to 20 seconds. For desert terrain that is really good. Only when you have duff on the ground does it get longer.

Hey Jstan
REALLY ?
For desert terrain ?
The Pit is someones property that doesn't sound that good
Where, do you live? Downtown LA ?
When I walk out into my yard I could stand for hours or days without seeing trash, not seconds
Or across the street to BLM land and still no trash
Or my neighbors yard, still no trash
Must be fun to walk by The Pit
The pit still sucks
jstan

climber
Nov 10, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
Eric:
My ultimate goal is to work Alta Loma 150 feet out from the road all the way to Yucca Valley. Wasn't that some fun we had on Rt. 120 in Yosemite? You got all of twenty big bags into your van. That had to have been an all-time record.

And I still remember Jingy sidehilling all day in sandals. He must have been leaving blood on the leaves.

Some of the best climbing days I ever had. Bar none.

Today I started working Alta Loma West of HillView. Grim. God how grim! Ten acres of it is on the market. If I buy it maybe I could skip it. Is hang dogging allowed?

I know Anders does not allow hang dogging. Maybe he won't see this.

Holy shyte!
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Nov 10, 2012 - 10:34pm PT
Pssst! Jstan lives in Jtree. :/
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
Hey John!
" God how grim!"

Did you finally start talking to God? Glad to hear it!

I think I finally agree with Khanom for once. A Lot of the trash around the pit was distributed by the wind. When I was there I saw plastic swimming pools, bags, kids shirts, who knows what else go flying by when there's 50 mile an hour winds. It even blew the dumpster open and discarded about a quarter of the contents. I witnessed "happy girl"and "lame Larry" pick up a lot of it. What I can't stand is when the garbage trucks pick up peoples trash cans to dump them on top and the wind blows most of it away. Once I saw a garbage truck do this and about 1000 magazines and newspapers went blowing all down Sunset ave. so I chased him down and told him to look what he just did. He basically said F. Off.

I being from a pristine part of Northern California used to take great offense in seeing trash in the wilderness. Especially a cigar ette butt. But after living down here for 10 years I've decided not to dwell on the negative... Now I just say, O lookee another invention by man isn't it beautiful. After all won't it be a part of our fossil fuels someday?

Jus Clean'in
BB
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
Lame Larry? Harsh man. We call him Lucky Larry, cause he crushes it if you ever go climbing with him. Solos harder stuff then most folks climb. I know, he seems so laidback and all..

Lucky Larry take pride in the wide fist at Royal Columns, Tieton.
Lucky Larry take pride in the wide fist at Royal Columns, Tieton.
Credit: Studly

Credit: Studly

and he says Happie's chalk bags are the WAY!!! not sure why she won't make me a Hawaiian print one...
Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
jstan sounds like a cool dude
Im not trying to say any thing bad about cleaning up the earth or the people that do
If someone owns this land its not open desert
I just think not seeing trash for a whole 15 seconds on someones land sounds like they are pigs
Great jstan is trying to keep the landowners trash Pit clean (Great)
Maybe the owner should not have a trash pit for homeless people
I have a 5 acre lot next to my house , it has no trash on it why is The Pit different
I moved here so I didn't have to see trash every 15 seconds
O ya
If the owner hadn't dug out the pit to hide from the neighbors there wouldn't be a place for the town Meth Heads to party where people and police cant see them
Great job of providing a place for Meth Heads
What's the point
The Pit still sucks

Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 10, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
khanom
Do you need a pat on the back too?
Poor baby!
pud

climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:05am PT
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:12am PT
Ground-up, seems to me you are the one desperately seeking attention here.

He obviously doesn't know who jstan is, which basically means he's not even a climber.

Curt
BLUEBLOCR

Social climber
joshua tree
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:59am PT
Studly, Naahhh. I Love Larry> <
I'd even call him Studlly Larry!
We did some fun climbing at Beacon and Smith together that were pretty Studly..
I think he's called Lucky Larry because he's still lucky to be alive?
Seems like he gets hurt a lot. I started calling him lame Larry last winter, when he hung out in Cali. but he couldn't climb because he was always broken~

That bottom pic. cracked me up!! Is that Lamma Larry ?? LOL

Jus Laugh'in
BB
Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 11, 2012 - 08:47am PT
F -----u
Kurt
You are right I guess I don't know jstan I'm just tired of hearing him toot his own horn

Any way Im getting tired of wasting my time talking to Posers like you
O ya
F------u
locker
I don't know you either LOCKER But you sound like a real dick
Are you asking someone to hurt me ,it sounds like you are
Better watch your step
If you have a problem with me you should deal with it yourself (PUSSY) not ask others to hurt me

Maybe You, Dick ,Tucker and Mayville should all get together and Put up a Poser Rap Route
You could call it ( we wish we were real climbers not posers)
O Well I'm over it
I've wasted enough time on poser climbers
Peace

jstan

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 08:54am PT
Yeah, I know who Ground-up is. Just figured it out. He is a real real climber.

GU:
I'll PM you. Tried to get ahold of you a couple months ago. Didn't succeed.
Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 11, 2012 - 09:19am PT
LOCKER
YOU are a Dick
F-------u
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Nov 11, 2012 - 09:36am PT
Would someone please give GU a joint and a hug? He really needs it.

This thread's funny..

Cliff notes:



Pick up yur trash dirtbags

the Pit sucks

no you suck

You suck..

No you suck...

No you suck...

JStan: can't we just all get along?

Poser

No yur a poser

I quit

No I quit

R you quitting yet cause you suck?

JStan: can't we just all get along?

no you suck...

No the Pit sucks...


or something to that effect.
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Nov 11, 2012 - 09:47am PT
Would someone please give GU a joint and a hug? He really needs it.

More like psychotherapy.

Curt
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Nov 11, 2012 - 09:54am PT
I'd give Jstan a pat on the back, a beer, a meal or what ever else I could help him out with. Would REALLY like to get out there and help him, Fonda and the rest of the crew trying to help the place out.
Peace


Hey Fonda, the place in any need of LABOR help, the fields are tended to, so I am freed up, so to speak.
Peace
Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:00am PT
I'll take the joint not the hug
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:06am PT
Something about the high- desert air up there. It turns people into crusty, angry curmudgeons holed up in their compounds. If they're not clawing their way up some crumbling, ball-bearing-coated dummy-dome they got nothing else to do but troll on the internet. I doubt there's a qualified therapist within 100 miles. Give em a break. ;)

Picking on on our boy JStan does not earn brownie points though. The man is a living saint and an inspiration IMHO. Wish I didn't have stupid obligations keeping me elsewhere.

jstan

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:09am PT
Ron:
You gave Robert, Dave, and myself a real hand when we badly needed it. Without your help we were stuck.

Thank you.

John

I figured out who G-U is before today's posts. Should have known right away. I must be getting slow.

Edit:
JTM:
G-U is not a curmudgeon. He is an original.
Silver

Ice climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:09am PT
Never have I seen a guy who just wanted to clean up some garbage take so much crap from people.

JStan thanks for your efforts.

GU a joint is not what you need. You need a hug the one your mom never gave you.

Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:09am PT
Picking on on our boy JStan does not earn brownie points though.

When some anonymous poster who calls himself "ground up" is lecturing John Stannard, it just doesn't get much funnier than that.

Curt
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:11am PT
John, give me a call when you guys are gonna be out there, I'll make my best to come out and help get it done. What I did, was nothing, what I can do might amount to something.
Peace
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:24am PT
Being a curmudgeon and being an original are not mutually exclusive. :)


GU:

Credit: justthemaid


Ground-Up

Trad climber
ca
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:31am PT
I'm not picking on any one and I'm not looking for brownie points and CURT IS STILL A DICK!
I also think any one trying to clean up the planet is cool and doing a great thing
Sounds like jstan is trying to do good things and I think that's great
He sounds like a good dude
Just got tired of hearing about Pit
I do believe The Pit is not giving climbers a good name with the people that live in Joshua Tree
TAKE IT or LEAVE IT

O ya LOCKER IS STILL A DICK !

This will be my last post on this subject
Im off to go climbing
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:35am PT
I'm not picking on any one and I'm not looking for brownie points and CURT IS STILL A DICK!

I can live with that.

This will be my last post on this subject

Somehow I doubt it.

Curt
jstan

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:44am PT
Ron:
Right now we are mainly pointing toward the AAC's Spring Clean in the Park. I have been volunteering with George Land's group on the NPS which is now responding, just as did Facelift, to the Cultural Resource Protection Act. With the JT Clean Team/off the Park we run into debris I estimate to be as much as 100 years old. A story I ran into in the Park.

On a walk I saw some interesting stones and picked up a couple as souvenirs. Then PT said, "John! Look!" The stones formed a rectangle 2 1/2 feet wide by 6 feet long. I put them back and when we later showed the site to a knowledgeable friend he knew exactly where in Nevada the stones originated. Stream worn sandstone. Someone's mother is buried there.

Life here can be really raw and I see both old and recent evidence of that. You can be in just a desperate area with broken glass everywhere and come on women's underwear thrown onto the ground. Or find piles of badly rusted cans, with no house anywhere nearby, many of them the old soldered cans used for a baby's milk. A family was living there in a tent taking care of a baby.


You see two lines of stones forming a right angle? Someone was living there in a tent.

The frontier.


There is one thing I am not clear on however. If someone over 50 years old falls off the rocks in the Park. Do we have to leave him where he lies?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 11, 2012 - 11:36am PT
This thread proves that one mans chick magnet is another mans garbage dump.

Good people doing good stuff is all it takes to dilute the bad stuff, or even motivate change. School is out for us Thanksgiving week, we are looking for a project, so if the clean team needs help we are on it.
zip

Trad climber
pacific beach, ca
Nov 11, 2012 - 11:41am PT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0
jstan

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
Well, I have joined the ranks of the perplexed. G-U is not who I thought he was.

Edit:
You can never tell about chick magnets. A fellow built a house near me with a 50' lap pool and a sauna in hopes of keeping his wife here. She left and he ended up following her. You may be right. But I tend to doubt spreading broken glass around would have done the trick.
east side underground

climber
Hilton crk,ca
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
"one man's chick magnet, is another man's garbage dump".....Classic
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
That last sentence LOCKER......couldn't agree more. Not that I have anything against either of them, but neither is on my list of listening to constructive criticism from. I'll go out and help and I ain't a real climber anyway, you've seen me climb!!!! Or lack of it these days.

Peace
klk

Trad climber
cali
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:30pm PT
CURT IS STILL A DICK! LOCKER IS STILL A DICK !

This will be my last post on this subject

heh
jstan

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
If one is breathing one may expect to get crap. It is not a problem however, as crap is something you are quite used to.

You do need to start worrying when you don't get crap. That means you need to get a mirror and check to make sure you are still breathing.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 11, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
It sounds like all that training at the FaceLift is paying off, and that jstan is turning into an archaeologist. Wow!

For ground-up and other members of the peanut gallery, I can only quote the famous adage "Better to light one candle, than to curse the darkness". Why don't you get out and do something useful for our community, before yapping?

jstan is a respected and long-standing part of the climbing community. Whether or not he actually climbs now is irrelevant - although I climbed with John at JT only a year or two ago. Once a climber - in the true sense of the word - always a climber. And it's in any case irrelevant to the community and environmental question as to stewardship of the Pit.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 11, 2012 - 05:04pm PT
What would LEB say?











Inquiring minds want to know.
jstan

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
LEB:
"Stannard is not going to be standing all that much longer."
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 11, 2012 - 05:34pm PT
LEB:
"Stannard is not going to be standing all that much longer."

Clearly more delusional Tea Party drivel, or is that dribble?

Jstan is and will continue to stand tall and proud for a loooooong time, period.
jstan

climber
Nov 11, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
I was kidding. Lois did not say that. Sorry about that.

Not to worry. My morale suffers only when there is no action.

As you were.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Nov 11, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
Sometimes, people can be really good rock climbers and really nice in person, but have no idea about internet etiquette.


It's not that GU is an as#@&%e - I'm sure whoever he is, he is a cool dude. It's that it is weird talking on line to people if you don't it very regular. He strikes me as a guy who isn't a "forum dude" (me) and just wants to say his piece and have that be that. I can choose when not to be offended, sticks and stones...
jstan

climber
Nov 12, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
Every chance I can, I have been going down to the Pit talking to people and telling them of Robert's guidelines. Communication is the key at this time. I think ST has served that purpose well. When more needs to be put on ST I plan to do so. Right now the need is not high.

Why do I respond here, then?

Scott, you are out of touch. I have not met any deadbeats at the pit. Indeed people have asked if they can make a contribution. I have declined, saying all people need do is read Robert's guidelines, treat the area gently and leave it as clean or cleaner than it was when they first came. Without being critical I would ask you to consider viewing this matter very calmly. Calm and considered action is what we need. Robert has made it clear the area will be closed if those needing the area do not give it the care it needs. Mind you emphasizing the possibility of closure itself tends to cause people to get emotional. We don't need more emotion.

One individual posting on ST has seemed to be assuming I propose to benefit financially out of my efforts. We all share the same desire to have the area clean and treated well. I am not even sure anyone could benefit.

So I would ask everyone to dial it back and let success have a chance to succeed. That's all we need.

The future is in the hands of the people using the area.

For me, the next parcel to the West looks like it will be the ultimate challenge. The 5.16 of trash picking.
doc bs

Social climber
Northwest
Nov 12, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
Every now-and-then the pit had nice energy, when nice people stayed there.

I always wondered - the owner has a backhoe. There is sand for concrete. Plus talented wanderers of diverse backgrounds and a strong-bodied labor force.

Why dont they built a PIT toilet???

Then it wouldnt be such a looming public health threat...
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 13, 2012 - 12:01am PT
Well Doc, that would be nice, but there are codes that govern that. We're pretty out there already with regards to zoning etc.

I'm working on getting a donation site set up and talking with the port-a-potty folks to see if we can get a deal that would make things happen for the season only.

When you coming back our way? It would be nice to see you again!

Hilde says hi!

Robert
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Nov 13, 2012 - 02:36am PT
Why dont they built a PIT toilet???

Then it wouldnt be such a looming public health threat...

Hey, when the Doc speaks, its a prescription for success! Why not a composting toilet?
Fluoride

Trad climber
West Los Angeles, CA
Nov 13, 2012 - 02:55am PT
"STOP GIVING REAL CLIMBERS A BAD NAME"

Ground Up, do you think "real" climbers haven't stayed there? What's a "real" climber to you anyway? One that has enough time on their hands to head out there on a Wednesday and secure a weekend campsite in the park? One that can afford motel rooms?

The Pit has been there for years. It's not like it's a secret to anyone who climbs or any of the neighbors.

I would think with GU's level of vitriol he's for sure a troll but jstan seems to think he knows who this is.

Anyone who "yells" online in all caps has to be questioned for trolling.

Justthemaid, please hand him a J and a hug. :)
Sioux Juan

Big Wall climber
Costa mesa
Nov 13, 2012 - 09:38am PT
a pit toilet.......in a pit....... hmmmmmmmm.......sometimes it has been !
justthemaid

climber
Jim Henson's Basement
Nov 13, 2012 - 09:53am PT
Hey Robert..

Edit

Nevermind.. I'll send it in a PM

Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Nov 13, 2012 - 10:34am PT
SCMA dues are $45 per year. That gets you a guaranteed campsite at Sheep Pass two weekends a month October through May, guaranteed sites in the valley three times a year and Tuolumne twice a year, plus/minus.

Who need a Pit?
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 13, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
I can not stop laughing after reading that CL post for Hair Fairies. A winter in the Pit ought to look good on any Hair Fairy's resume.

It ain't dirtbagging, its career advancement!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Nov 17, 2012 - 11:50am PT
Jstan u remind me of this guyhttp://www.salvationmountain.us/bio.html
jstan

climber
Nov 17, 2012 - 02:31pm PT
Locker?
other

Trad climber
LA, CA
Nov 18, 2012 - 03:50am PT
burchley do you own rei or whats the problem causing you to impotently make threats? actually all members own a little piece and can choose to return as they see fit. REI dramatically overprices their goods and coerce and blackmails people to join the co op. they refuse returns from non members of rei brand items without a receipt. rei brand items fall apart after a month. they make members wait months for a merchandise credit they lie and call a dividend. sales items are not included and credit card purchases only earn 8%.
If they care about members then we should get 10% off at the register.
if they don't want returns they can change the return policy.

OP-thanks for keeping the JT pit open.
other

Trad climber
LA, CA
Nov 18, 2012 - 04:06am PT
SCMA dues are $45 per year. That gets you a guaranteed campsite at Sheep Pass two weekends a month October through May, guaranteed sites in the valley three times a year and Tuolumne twice a year, plus/minus.

Who need a Pit?

Anyone who isn't friends with an scma member. attempting to join the scma takes months at best and involves lots of subjective red tape unless the candidate has a buddy who is a member. in that case they are ushered in and can skip the tests and evaluations. scma is a closed private club not open to the general public.
Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Nov 24, 2012 - 08:22pm PT
Friday night at the pit, gotta say, it was a better experience than anything in the park. A little road noise till the bars close. Was a lot of people there, maybe 10 vehicles, all climbers and all very nice and interesting, no supertopians however. Larry was the unofficial host, he clued everyone in to the guidelines. with one exception everyone there was a Pit noob. Although everyone had heard of the pits prior reputation, they all had praise for the new improved pit

I credit jstan and crew for the positive vibe he and the others have created. Thank you very much, I tried to pick up trash in the morning but the area was devoid, plenty in JT at the day use areas however. Broken glass in the rocks is becoming very obvious.
jstan

climber
Nov 24, 2012 - 09:32pm PT
Jon:
Thanks very much for your report on the area that cannot be named. Robert and I have been going down to talk to people but the effort you all make to bring new people up to date is critical. Thank you Larry for what you are doing.If we all work together on this, Robert's guidelines will belong to everyone. It is even a good excuse to welcome new people and to get acquainted. From the people I have talked to I get the impression people are finding the area much more enjoyable. That was what we were hoping for. Fantastic.

A while ago George Land of the NPS said I should hang tight on my cleanup efforts in the Park. Just as happened in Yosemite, NPS staff are working out how to provide monitoring of cleanup efforts so that Cultural Resources can be protected. The last three years at Facelift there has been very effective monitoring and educational efforts. As we all do what we can to keep the park beautiful we do need to give the NPS our best efforts to keep historical stuff from being lost.

Broken glass is a tremendous problem and it is not at all clear that complete restoration is possible. No matter how small the pieces one picks up, you see glints of reflected sunlight. Heavy foot traffic over a period of years does reduce the reflections. But getting it all up is still a hope.

Any glass colored by the sun or whose manufacture appears unusual should be left in place. In general if you find broken crockery or dishes, those should be left and the NPS person at the gate told of the find.

Thank you. Great news!
Lynne Leichtfuss

Social climber
moving thru
Nov 24, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
Hey Jon Beck, I climbed in Jtree today with Wendell and Woody's daughter, Tia, and friends doing some of Woody's favorite climbs as a memorial to him. Wish I'd known you were here.

Jstan, howdy. If I'm here and you need any pick up help email me. I keep two trash grabbers in the car.

Happigrrrl, are you here in JTree. I'd like to swing by and see you if you are.

Cheers, lynne
verticalbound

Trad climber
Anchorage
Jan 6, 2013 - 11:28am PT
Hello everyone,
Not a regular but hoping to make some friends once we are in the area, gonna be at jtree for the latter half of winter. The email from the pit website hasn't worked in a while is there still stipulations on who can stay at the pit?
Bretts

Sport climber
San Luis Obispo
Jan 28, 2015 - 12:03pm PT
Are climbers still permitted to stay at the Pit? My climbing partner and I are heading into Joshua Tree and are looking for some free camping both Friday and Saturday nights. In the past I've stayed on BLM land but think this is a great idea. Thank you to all who have participated in keeping this place cleaned up and running!
Bretts

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Jan 28, 2015 - 12:17pm PT
Perfect!

Locker, a buddy of mine just got his shoes back from you (resole & rand) and you did an excellent job! Keep up the great work!!!
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Jan 28, 2015 - 12:38pm PT
Anyone who isn't friends with an scma member. attempting to join the scma takes months at best and involves lots of subjective red tape unless the candidate has a buddy who is a member. in that case they are ushered in and can skip the tests and evaluations. scma is a closed private club not open to the general public.

Yeah, they let me in because I'm an insider, baby!!
PotatoHead

Trad climber
Nunya,ID
Jan 28, 2015 - 03:32pm PT
Just burned a couple of hours(at work) reading this thread from cover-to-cover. Whew!! Guuud stuff! Waaay better than werk

I see...a new reality TV series.....The Pit ;-). Kinda like Survivor

I'm dying to know tho.....who the heck is Ground-Up??

I've spent many moons climbing JT...never heard of The Pit. Sounds like a nice resource. Occasionally had luck and got a campsite. We usually hit the BLM lands and tried to lay low.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jan 28, 2015 - 04:08pm PT
I've been mulling over my retirement savings lately, and frankly, the Pit is looking better and better. Sure, it's not much to look at, but, I figure, living in Boulder, we have less than 10 years' savings. Living in the Pit, I figure we could live well into our 140s before money became a problem.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Jan 28, 2015 - 06:17pm PT
Thinking this would be a great spot for my family reunion. Where do I apply for a permit?
dickcilley

Social climber
Wisteria Ln.
Jan 28, 2015 - 06:43pm PT
Come on down Lynne.You too grug.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Jan 28, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
Are you there Cilley? May be down in a week or so to visit Sir Fonda with one of our Bezerkeley friends.
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 07:10pm PT
Yup, Dick is there.

Permit? Sure, but your gonna pay a hefty fee.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Jan 28, 2015 - 07:11pm PT
rlf, will you take one of my children in lieu of fee?
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 07:14pm PT
I need something of value...
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Jan 28, 2015 - 07:18pm PT
How do you always come up with the great come back line??????????

You must have practiced when you were locked in the trunk:)
rlf

Trad climber
Josh, CA
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
As they say, practice makes perfect.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Jan 29, 2015 - 10:06am PT
Good chance I'll come visit in April, Dick.
dickcilley

Social climber
Wisteria Ln.
Jan 31, 2015 - 11:04am PT
I might still be here in April. Hard to Say.
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Jan 31, 2015 - 01:43pm PT
I hear Lucky Larry is down there hanging, hows he doing? Hope hes getting some climbing in.
dickcilley

Social climber
Wisteria Ln.
Jan 31, 2015 - 01:45pm PT
Grug, Maybe we should meet up in Zion.Find something big for you to fall off of.
ana dablam

climber
mother earth
Dec 20, 2015 - 08:17am PT
Went by the pit recently, it looks to be dead. Anyone know what happened?
jeff constine

Trad climber
Ao Namao
Dec 20, 2015 - 08:37am PT
People got smart, found a better place.. lol but the J THE Maid did the dirty work of digging up all that smelly sh#t people stick in the ground!!
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Dec 20, 2015 - 08:51am PT
Is there any way to make it a Monument again?

Where have all the climbing enforcers gone? Used to be that placing an unwarranted bolt or leaving a bit of trash was grounds for getting your eye dotted in Josh. Now look at you.
Cosmiccragsman

Trad climber
AKA Dwain, from Apple Valley, Ca. and Vegas!
Dec 20, 2015 - 08:58am PT
^^^^^
It's still the Monument to me.
jstan

climber
Dec 20, 2015 - 09:40am PT
Went by the pit recently, it looks to be dead. Anyone know what happened?

Robert is planning to put out an announcement, but now that you ask....

The Pit was not a permitted activity and I understand there was a complaint to the county. The county levies substantial fines for such things so the decision was made to shut the Pit down.

It was great fun while it lasted. I certainly don't regret all the work I put in. I got to meet a lot of good people. But that is the end of it.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 20, 2015 - 09:55am PT
the decision was made to shut the Pit down.

Yeah, it was giving all the local permitted meth labs a bad reputation.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Dec 20, 2015 - 11:12am PT
All it takes is one as#@&%e, but you know, there's one in every crowd that ruins it for everyone.

Actually, it requires that one A-hole AND a host of other people willing to idly sit by rather than call that person out and make them own it.

It appears The Pit was a microcosm of society attitudes in general whereby people are willing to sub-contract all the justification and enforcement of what is right rather than confront them and demand they clean up their act or push-off down the road.

There's only one way to fix some kinds of stupid and talking isn't it. You pull that trash stunt in Idaho (or Utah for that matter) and you best have 4 spares and some butterfly closures on hand.

jstan

climber
Dec 20, 2015 - 12:40pm PT
Escopeta:
Actually, it requires that one A-hole AND a host of other people willing to idly sit by rather than call that person out and make them own it.

It appears The Pit was a microcosm of society attitudes in general whereby people are willing to sub-contract all the justification and enforcement of what is right rather than confront them and demand they clean up their act or push-off down the road.


We need not to let Escopeta's out of date information mislead people. The Pit was not closed down because of trash. People wanting to use the Pit back in 2012 cleaned up not only the Pit but also the adjoining 18 acres. Before and after shots:
Credit: jstan
Credit: jstan

Since 2012 Phil Bircheff did a great job as sort of a camp host and there were no problems. A local person did dump 14 tires there but they were removed within the week.

If I might I would like to address the issue of how one best handles situations. Frequently people become angry when there are transgressions. Being angry is not a helpful response. We have found that simply clearing trash away immediately as it appears, and what is more, also removing anything that reappears is quite effective. People much prefer to deposit trash where there is already trash. cf: Alice's Restaurant.

I seldom have had trash reappear. Generally when a parcel is cleared, a for sale sign is put up by the owner. Don't think for a moment no one notices. This is a powerful and growing movement. Being "in the van", as the Brits say, is really cool.

Edit:
I looked up the zoning. The parcel is zoned one acre residential which is about the most restrictive. There are procedures for using the lot for other purposes but waivers and public involvement seem to be required. And the use would have to be code compliant. These all act to make free camping a challenge.
Escopeta

Trad climber
Idaho
Dec 20, 2015 - 01:39pm PT
Glad to hear it was on the straight and narrow.

Now all that's left is the disagreement on the appropriate response.

Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Dec 20, 2015 - 03:30pm PT
Whoa, how sad. The pit gone..... I only stayed there once, but for me it was a safety valve. Just knowing it was there if I really, really needed a place to stay for a night or two was a terrific fallback. I'm not surprised, just saddened that another "special spot" has been laid to rest.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 20, 2015 - 04:13pm PT
overwatch

climber
Dec 20, 2015 - 05:54pm PT
Egosweater, another ITG
jstan

climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 04:13pm PT
The problem presented by dumping in the Pit is on the way to solution. The eighteen and a half acre parcel now has two Berkshire Hathaway realtor signs on it for an asking price of $1,200,000.

As of a few weeks ago there was a new pile of slash on the property that I have no plans for removing. A new owner will be responsible.
Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Dec 1, 2017 - 04:27pm PT
With bad math that is like 67k per acre. A while back small lots in Indian Cover were going for up to 50k (.25 to .3 acre) Developers took a bath on that, but still. I think most standard lots are about 5 acres for 20 to 50K. Maybe this one is a bit better due to location and size. Not like I'd be paying it...

Edit: quick look around that area shows 5 acres for 75k and a few 1 acres in the 30k range... so yeah, maybe that is what they are going for. Unreal... Bring on the man-buns braj!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2017 - 04:41pm PT
That sounds like a more realistic price range...

For a meth lab site. Been looking for quite a while up in Washington and Oregon.
Nice property up there goes for $20-30K/acre, and up.
Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Dec 1, 2017 - 04:44pm PT
After another look... if you are looking to fire up a dab/wax/shatter/grease/bubble/datura/flakka lab, there is land going for way less on the outskirts. For 5k you can be hangin' in your cargo container with a lab coat on and well away from it all, on acreage. Sounds like a location issue on the big price tag.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Dec 1, 2017 - 04:50pm PT
5k you say? Sounds like a dream.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2017 - 04:54pm PT
You may! I’ve signed Dr Frank N Furter to run it - I don’t do fumes well.

BTW, I’m rockin’ some oxycontin as we type! Total n00b but it is SWEET!
That was while I was getting the really gud shite earlier today! <br/>
Hom...
That was while I was getting the really gud shite earlier today!
Home now, hence only the Oxy. :-:
Credit: Reilly
David Knopp

Trad climber
CA
Dec 1, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
Reilly i hope its nothing serious and that you can sit back and relax and enjoy the good shite!!!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2017 - 05:16pm PT
Reilly i hope its nothing serious

Thanks, Dave, been putting it off for a while but
I can't tell you how liberating a gud lobotomy is!
I feel more a part of the Super Topo community now!
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 05:22pm PT
If someone's getting "the good shite" for something non-serious, the practitioners should be questioned. Opioid addiction is serious, and it often starts with prescriptions from doc. Not suggesting Reilly is apt to abuse - just saying; the days of popping painkillers like Oxycontin like they are candy is over, except in cases when docs are unethical.


...............

As for 5K parcels in the outskirst - I have been looking. Problem is building to code and following zoning regs brings the cost up considerably. One can only "camp" on a parcel in San Bernardino County 3 days out of 30.



FWIW - I am hoping to look at some Rec Cabin designated parcels when I am there this winter. One with remnants of the shack preferred. I'll be there about mid December(I'm in Eastern Kansas today). If anyone has some leads, I'd appreciate them!
Russ Walling

Social climber
from Poofters Froth, Wyoming
Dec 1, 2017 - 05:31pm PT
One can only "camp" on a parcel in San Bernardino County 3 days out of 30.

Credit: Russ Walling

I got a lotta dough that says code enforcement is not going out there on day 4 and roust you and your multimeter. Park in the middle and buy a camo tarp and you will be golden.
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 05:43pm PT
I've been looking in that area and it's a possibility(though I haven't saved up as I should have, and have been buying beads along the way on this trip like mad), but I would really like one w/Rec Cabin designation, and those are going going, almost gone, with all the LA people buying them and turning into AirBnB's.

WBraun

climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 05:47pm PT
I can't tell you how liberating a gud lobotomy is!
I feel more a part of the Super Topo community now!

LMAO .....
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 1, 2017 - 05:48pm PT
If someone's getting "the good shite" for something non-serious, the practitioners should be questioned.

Thanks for the advice! The doc had a noice multimeter so I’m pretty sure he knew what he was doing. The Wife was also a colleague of said sawbones up til a few months ago so she’ll cut me off as indicated. 😫
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 05:54pm PT
I didn't actually give you any advice.

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 1, 2017 - 06:26pm PT
Perfect place for meth production...the market is certainly there.
jstan

climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 06:46pm PT
Holy cow!

Ask a realtor where all the JT houses costing 30K have gone. Landers has none. Here in south JT (which realtors call Mulholland drive) there is nothing available. And there, if it were only average it would still run 45K/acre. In a north JT area where the Team is cleaning up trash, a resident showed me a typical 1950's hovel that just went for $220,000.

What the hell is happening?

Well to start we have artificially low interest rates. The price of a place means nothing. It is the monthly cost, or PITI, that determines what people can pay. This is a bubble. The FED printed four trillion dollar bills in 2008 assuming everyone would spend those dollars. They didn't. They all went into bank accounts. Now investors, foreign and domestic, are worried about inflation and want to get into real assets. Watch the readings for consumer confidence. I think they are based upon nothing. But they determine everything.

As to the Pit. The 1.2 million dollars is not important. Not if you plan to build 40 houses.

Personally I don't mind what's happening to the Pit. Simply put, I don't have to drag out the sh#t that was being dumped there anymore. And, at the same time, suffer absurd claims that I was doing it because I had some agenda. Holy fuk!

I am otta here.

Two or three years ago I went to Indian Cove to pick up the trash in the group camp sites. Beyond belief. I found one site where the garbage from the fire pit had been tossed into the bushes. A few weeks ago I took another look. Incredible! The NPS has made a miracle happen there. Spotless. I don't know what the NPS has been drinking. Saw the same thing in Yosemite this last Facelift. Took me a half hour to find one damn cigarette butt.

Think I have died and gone to heaven.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Outside the Asylum
Dec 1, 2017 - 07:21pm PT
The Joshua Tree Clean Team is surely responsible for this astonishing development. Clean properties = higher prices. But somehow I bet that you're not getting a deserved percentage of the increased prices.
jstan

climber
Dec 1, 2017 - 07:25pm PT
Actually, realtor signs soon show up on about half the properties the Team has cleaned. But as we all know, correlation does not prove cause.

Tomorrow morning I have two mattresses and a refrigerator to pick up.

Big change I have not mentioned. In central JT the businesses behind Tortoise Island have begun to maintain that island. Huge difference.
JLP

Social climber
The internet
Dec 1, 2017 - 07:44pm PT
I would have guessed for 1.2 million, you could buy that entire town.

aldude

climber
Monument Manor
Dec 1, 2017 - 09:14pm PT
Hey jstan...I have a house for sale in monument manor. 2 bd/1ba 900sqft on 2.5 acres one mile from the entrance. Special supertopo price : 160k cash !!
Happiegrrrl2

Trad climber
Dec 2, 2017 - 05:16am PT
Now you know why I want to find a (preferred)parcel while I can. I started watching last spring, when a friend turned me on to the Tax Sale. I've learned a little, and don't know much, but one thing I see is that for any spot that has so much as a water meter or electric line, the prices are rising faster than Trump's chances of impeachment. Well, almost that fast(sorry, Trumpeters; it's getting about time to face the music that he is a criminal, and has been one of the sort that consorts with the Russian Mob - jayzus!).

The thing about the zoning/code - The concern is a neighbor who complains. They are of two types. One is the type that wants to see their home remain safe and attractive and able to sell if need be. The other, more problematic, is the type who likes their privacy and intends to keep it. They have an emotional claim on the open acreages surrounding their parcel and anyone thinking about stepping foot there had better mind their p's and q's. Besides, improvements made on the downlow now will have to be dealt with if a tome comes when the place needs selling.

Nonetheless - I AM hoping to get started in finding a little spot for myself. I won't build because I can't afford to, but a little derelict shack I could view as sculpture, with a view to the horizon would be cool.

Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Brooklyn, NY
Dec 2, 2017 - 10:43am PT
Nonetheless - I AM hoping to get started in finding a little spot for myself. I won't build because I can't afford to, but a little derelict shack I could view as sculpture, with a view to the horizon would be cool.

Then why entertain buying property?
You'll need to pay for the property plus all expenses related to upkeep, maintenance, services, legal, and worries associated with it. Half the year you can roast in your desert shack. When you come to your senses and scram, some meth head will end up squating in your shack, or you'll return to find a local chapter from the Solar Lodge of the Ordo Templi Orientis has been performing their rituals inside it. And you'll still be liable.

Put some cash into an upgraded cush rig (and quality multimeter) that meets your qualifications and your standard of living and headache quotient will improve dramatically. If you feel the unrelenting need to be indoors in J-Tree, and absolutely cannot manage to eradicate that desire from your midstream, do a $50 airbnb for 30 days out of the year. If you want just a patch of land to park your rig and live unmolested in it for a spell, pay a property owner a marginal fee to park your rig on their land. Then invest whatever cash you have. You'll be way ahead of the game vs. owning a lot of sand.

And you'll liberate yourself ... of both the worries and the dreams.
jstan

climber
Dec 2, 2017 - 08:11pm PT
Because of the time I spend picking up litter I get to see a lot of interesting properties. One really heartbreaking incomplete house is just sitting there partially vandalized. No one would want to live there but it is far away from the hordes of people and if one would landscape the property with native trees it could be really nice, That it was built with love is clear if you just look at the construction. One of the few times I have wanted to be in my thirties again. I'd write out a check for it tomorrow. But I have to face the facts. I probably won't be around long enough to self-build even on the two stellar lots I already have.

Those wishing to buy now need to sit down and plan for how they will deal with being underwater on a mortgage. In 2008 a lot of people in JT were underwater by half the value of their mortgage. Stressful. Very stressful.

Having an exit plan is critical for those investing in real estate. Or anything else for that matter.


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