ATVs rampaging in INDIAN CREEK--yes or no???????????


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Social climber
Monza by the streetlight
Oct 4, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
As far as Destruction of natural habitat goes, trails left by Motorcycle and ATV's will disappear in a few years of non-use.

Not sure about that. There's still ruts from the wagon trains out there. And the desert is easy to damage and slow to recover.

Grey Matter
Oct 4, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
my comment letter to
Subject: No to New ATV trail proposed for Indian Creek.

I am writing to object to this plan for an ATV route on public land. ATV's and off-roading are not compatible with peaceful recreation. It is false that impacts due to speeding, noise, and leaving the trail will be minimal. The noise, dust, trash, pollution, and marring of the landscape will be far worse than the plan anticipates. Noise from night riders is another intolerable nuisance. Rules to limit speeding and leaving the trail are rarely enforced, and the fines are so minimal as to have no deterrent value. Unless the proposed action includes a viable and funded enforcement plan to enforce the rules, the EA is incomplete and should not be approved. The area is already crowded and already suffers from ATV use. There is no need to attract even more ATV use to this area.

Oct 4, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
Unjustified temporary and permanent closures of climbing areas are probably not supported by the ORV community who have witnessed their share of the recreational pie dwindle. There is a revolution going on in the Sierra Club in Santa Cruz due to their inflexible stance on mountain biking. Cali ORV parks are funded by ORV registration fees and taxes allowing them to ride without inconveniencing hikers, horseback riders and containing their damage. Yet they are under siege in these paid for areas. To save our open lands requires diverse user groups working together to restrict development and exploitation. Their tolerance for the unconventional climbing lifestyle would be much more in alignment than the public's in general.

Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
Oct 4, 2012 - 08:46pm PT
Donini - I just don't want to see unecessary conflicts between largely incompatible user groups!
That brings to mind the time there was just that (conflict) between dirtbiker's and climbers at the Santee boulders. It got so tumultous (name calling and threats) that a couple of the biker's ended up spilling a couple quarts/gallon of used motor oil down one of the popular faces. It took mega cleaning plus a number of years before that face returned to normal.

edit: Chaz - yea, that is definitely a lame way to have "fun"/desecrate at the expense of everyone else, imo! but prollie not representitive of most atv jocks, eh?

Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
Oct 4, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
For starters Indian Creek is in San Juan county, not Grand.
Secondly, as a former long time IC local I have seen and heard motorized recreation going on there since the 90s.
Thirdly, their camps usually make the climber camps look pretty good. (Quite an accomplishment given the last time I was there The Superbowl looked like a Lollapalooza parking lot.)
For perhaps the second time in my life I agree with Jim, it causes me pain, real physical pain, personally I hate the things, theyíre like chainsaws with tires but they have I right to be there.
Donít expect you can take away someone elseís right to use the land and then be all surprised and pissy when yours is called into question.
If you donít like the noise people then branch out! Thereís a whole other IC waiting to be developed up Hearts Draw. There are -hundreds- of towers that are still untouched.
End of rant.
Thank you,
Steve Seats

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 4, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
I was at that site yesterday, in a hurry, and missed the comment link and shelved the project until tonight.

I gotta say I disagree with you on this one Chief. Since those guys Are limited about where they can go, this a plan to build a new trail/road where none exists now. I think that is a bad idea. They have hundreds or thousands of miles out here where they already have access. They don't need this one,at the cost to the environment it would entail.

As far as various use groups' rights go, it's not exactly like climbing is allowed everywhere, either, now is it? How about an example; We are completely denied climbing access to Chiricauha NM in southern Az. Zillions of the coolest towers on the planet are off limits. Ever been there? It would be a signature major destination climbing spot of the southwest. But it's not allowed, so we live with it. The ATVers can live without one more plant destroying, noisy rutted dirt track... Though it looks like they are gonna get their way with the land on this one.

Not long ago, while climbing in Blair Wyo, we heard an ATV approaching and none other than a certain Master of Kludge commented, "here comes another fat boy toy "
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 4, 2012 - 10:21pm PT
I climb in one area where there is a long line of rocks.

The best rocks seem to have the longest approaches and the ATVs tend to stay near the not as good rocks. Those that bother with the long approach have often been bedeviled by flat tires and end up doing quite a trudge.

I've been lucky and have only had one flat so far.

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 4, 2012 - 10:22pm PT

Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Oct 4, 2012 - 10:32pm PT

Credit: pud

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Oct 4, 2012 - 10:32pm PT
I'm with you Jay. This one will have minimal impact but it's a precedent. There are two million acres for them to play in. We have to extend are influence and be proactive about any additional development. Events like the 13th where we work with and get to personally know land managers are important and effective.

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 4, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
Off road ATV use is another give away program by the Federal government that benefits a few at the expense of others...The ATVers tear up the logging roads and trails that MT. Bikers use , degrading the experience for other forest users ...The county gets re-imbursed by the feds to grade and maintain these roads then they get torn up again by the jack-ass moto heads...The Mt. biking experience has deteriorated here on the East Side thanks to popularity of the lame moto head sports...I have come close several times to running over the dumb-ass ATVers who were out of control and on my side of the road...I need to buy one of those cow-catchers and mount it on the front of my truck...

Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
Oct 5, 2012 - 12:34am PT

When 3 wheelers were outlawed in the 80's the four major Japanese supplier's answer was the 4 wheel "quad".

This was the beginning of the end for Off Road Motorcycle riding.
With considerable damage where ever they roamed, Quads were driven by folks with little or no training and it showed. Because of their large and heavy footprint, quads destroy roads, trails and meadows in very little time.

The ease and lack of talent it takes to drive a quad is why we have so many irresponsible people riding off road.

Quads are the problem.


Oct 5, 2012 - 01:02am PT
Well I have read all the posts and side with keeping recreation use seperate. For one we are talking about a community (climbers) that tends to "walk" and enjoy the solitude.

The other group may enjoy the same but in a different way. Now having said this I admit I am one who loves moto-x. Grew up with it but I do see a conflict.

As a father, I once had the horror of pulling my kid out of the way of an ATV going who knows how fast; it could have well been a person on a motorcycle, same result. There was no way they could have stopped in time. I went home, it wasn't a safe environment.

So for me its not that I don't like ATV's etc, I actually love them but I would like to know I can go to a certain place where I don't need to worry about them safety wise.

A certain place in Wyoming is becoming a reminder of this. Again not that I have any beef with ATV's/ motorcycles just keep em' seperated a little.


Carry on...

Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
Oct 5, 2012 - 11:13am PT
I think it is a bad idea for climbers to alienate the off-road community. They have a powerful lobby and can make for good allies when it comes to access issues.

I'm curious as to why off-roading and climbing are incompatible. Personally I think they can be complimentary. I don't see how riding an ATV to the crags is any different than driving a car/truck to the crags. And no, I'm not going to generalize all off-roaders by the actions of a minority. Most off-roaders are responsible with their recreation.

Back to my main point, we should be making allies in the land use/access issues, not enemies. Just because someone chooses a different form of recreation does not make them evil.

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Oct 5, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
Definetely don't alienate, I coexist them every day at sandflats, but take each situation on as case by case basis. This one is unworthy.

Gym climber
the secret topout on the Chockstone Chimney
Oct 5, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
"As far as Destruction of natural habitat goes, trails left by Motorcycle and ATV's will disappear in a few years of non-use."

This of course depends on one's definition of 'a few years', but those wagon ruts from 150 years ago are indeed still visible all over the West. And the Colorado Plateau is quite a bit more fragile than the plains.

Your ad hominem generalizations are unconvincing, Chief. Sounds like quite a few climbers on this thread don't quite fit your tidy little categories. Yes, climbers drive to the crags, and then? They park. And walk. Driving around is not the primary activity. It's a means to get someplace remote and quiet, which is tough to enjoy if a bunch of yahoos are constantly roaring past on their ATVs. The OHVers pretty much have Utah BLM in their pocket, and the industry has a whole lot more money to lobby for access than the human-powered folk. It would be real nice if they found someplace else to trash.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Oct 5, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
And those are only the less permanent impacts.

To me ATVs are like guns.
Most yahoos abuse them and it reflects poorly on the community.

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Oct 5, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
How about all them WHITE CHALK hand prints plastered in all them cracks and faces that in fact can be seen from all them access roads.

I've told you about leaving tick marks, damnit!

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Oct 5, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
Olde Skool chippers and tickers...

Credit: Reilly
Jebus H Bomz

Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Oct 5, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
To me ATVs are like guns.
Most yahoos abuse them and it reflects poorly on the community.


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