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Messages 1 - 41 of total 41 in this topic |
couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Well, did ya email BLM_UT_MT_Comments@blm.gov Chief?
Like Please allow ATVs and an ATV path in the Indian Creek area of Utah, I'm a hiker and rock climber who doesn't even own an ATV, but believes in balanced recreation.
Regards
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Comment sent.
Please allow responsible ATV/Motorcycle recreation in the Canyonlands Region.
The opportunity for young people to experience these beautiful areas while learning to respect and protect our environment is a very important lesson.
Simply because one chooses to ride motorized vehicles in the out of doors does not make them irresponsible.
Often times I clean up trash in the Southern California Desert left by Hikers, Campers and Equestrians.
Dirt bike riders and Desert Racers are good people and want to keep what little land they have left in the Western United States to enjoy their chosen sport.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Crusher, I talked to Bob Lever of the BLM, the proposed ATV trail is not under the Bridger Jacks. It does not go near any climbing areas, the biggest impact is that it will, at one point, come within 400 yards of Creek Pasture. It won't be visible from the camp but it might be possible to occasionally hear an ATV. The new route IS BETTER than the first proposal which had the trail going right thru Creek Pasture. That would have had a real impact on campers and on usage of the toilets.
The last day for comments is tomorrow. This is Utah and it is BLM land, not a Wilderness Area, and the trail will probably be approved. Bob Lever was able to keep the impact on the climbing community at a minimum. He is committed to keeping different special use groups from impacting each other.
I am against mechanized recreation on any public lands. Roody Rasmussen from Petzel might be able to come to the Creek next week and I will have him meet with Bob. Roody is on an advisement board for recreational use on Utah public lands.
It is important for the climbing community to do whatever it can to influence land managers and decision makers. That is why good turnouts at events like the Volunteer Day on the 13th
are important. Do all that you can to rally the troops for this event. Currently, I am expecting 50 or more participants but more would be that much better. I can assure you it WILL be
noticed
While this particular trail proposal will have little impact on climbing at IC, it is imperative that we are perceived as a good and valuable lobby should a more injurious proposal be put forth.
Jim
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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I'm against any self-righteous, narrow minded thinking.
I am against mechanized recreation in any public lands.
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Mtnmun
Trad climber
Top of the Mountain Mun
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The motorized sport vehicles in the wilderness is out of control. This affects wildlife migration patterns and eating habits. Get your fat ass off the motor and hike, run or peddle your way through the wildlands.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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pud, it's my PERSONAL opinion.....you probably have your own, voice them if you choose to.
edit: I see you did, we just happen to disagree, ATV riders are not noted for being very responsible.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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The motorized sport vehicles in the wilderness is out of control. This affects wildlife migration patterns and eating habits. Get your fat ass off the motor and hike, run or peddle your way through the wildlands.
+1
pud, it's my PERSONAL opinion.....you probably have your own, voice them if you choose to.
+1 for Jim
Note: I am a former dirtbike rider from many years ago. I gave it up after seeing the environmental damage that dirtbikes do.
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crasic
climber
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Not sure how I feel about motorized vehicles in wild areas...
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graniteclimber
Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
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What a concept.....
Every recreational org has the same rights to our land as anyone else.
"If you are able to install bolts in the rock, then I should be able to spray paint graffiti all over the rock."
"If you are able to walk to the summit, I should be able to drive my Hummer there."
Same logic.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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It would be refreshing if people would actually read posts before commenting. I said that while I personally was against motorized vehicles, I understood that such activities are always going to be allowed on BLM land. The question is how different special use groups impact each other. IC has historically been a climber's venue in terms of use. In hundreds of days over 20 years I have never seen an ATV at the Creek. There are over two million acres of land in the area, surely enough for all concerned.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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I am against mechanized recreation on any public lands.
but using ones 4x4 on long rock climbing approaches are prolly acceptable right?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Read my last post Hawkeye. There are 55,000 miles of dirt roads in Utah. Seems like enough for 4by4's and ATV's alike. I also realize that additional ATV trails will be made, I just don't want to see unnecessary conflicts between largely incompatible user groups.
edit: Am i on the right forum? I realize that a lot of people hear liked to bs but didn't really climb, but i thought that they were sympathetic to the activity.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Jim,
Point taken.
So many millions of acres have been closed to OHV's in the California Desert through deceit and manipulation of current laws by "environmentalists" it has left me somewhat jaded.
I respect your opinion.
As far as Destruction of natural habitat goes, trails left by Motorcycle and ATV's will disappear in a few years of non-use. Bolts in rock are permanent destruction.
Let's not be hypocrites.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Thanks pud. I realize that every group has people who are responsible and those who are not. Forget my personal prejudice, I shouldn't have voiced it. They are PUBLIC lands and many special interests have to be served. It's just in everybody's best interest to try to determine the best venues for each group and try to keep conflict at a minimum.
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crasic
climber
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Bolts in rock are permanent destruction
Until they mineralize and become a part of the rock, or the next rockfall drags that piece of rock to the talus.
EDIT:
I wonder what the reaction would be if someone lobbied to put a via ferrata up el cap?
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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I'm a long time dirt bike rider, racer & at present own 5 dirt bikes.
CR 80
CR 125
YZ 125
KDX 200
KTM 300
I agree with Jim.
I ride in Cal. & have no trouble finding places to ride.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Got nothing to do with being responsible, it has to do with noise impacts on other users.
I grew up riding and racing motocross, and using ATVs to haul deer out of the woods. I'm not opposed to them in general. But I f*#king hate hearing them when I'm otherwise trying to enjoy the outdoors. There is NO shortage of ATV terrain in southern Utah, in Grand, Wayne, San Juan or Garfield Counties. NONE. No reason they can't enjoy their existing opportunities where everyone else doesn't have to hear the two stroke whine.
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maldaly
Trad climber
Boulder, CO
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I'm with donini here. While I'm no fan of ATVs, ORVs, 4WDs and LMNOPs, we're in no position to say they have no right to use BLM lands. They do...if managed properly.
Kudos to the group that worked with the BLM planners to get the trail moved out of the Creek Pasture campground.
Now... if we can only get the damn dogs out of the crags...
Mal
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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How many acres does one need to ride around in a goddamn circle?
That's what the ATVers I see spend their entire day doing; Riding around in circles. Like a dog chasing it's own tail.
The dipshits who did the damage pictured here could have gotten their rocks off on a quarter-acre, max:
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Gary
Social climber
Monza by the streetlight
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As far as Destruction of natural habitat goes, trails left by Motorcycle and ATV's will disappear in a few years of non-use.
Not sure about that. There's still ruts from the wagon trains out there. And the desert is easy to damage and slow to recover.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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my comment letter to BLM_UT_MT_Comments@blm.gov
Subject: No to New ATV trail proposed for Indian Creek.
I am writing to object to this plan for an ATV route on public land. ATV's and off-roading are not compatible with peaceful recreation. It is false that impacts due to speeding, noise, and leaving the trail will be minimal. The noise, dust, trash, pollution, and marring of the landscape will be far worse than the plan anticipates. Noise from night riders is another intolerable nuisance. Rules to limit speeding and leaving the trail are rarely enforced, and the fines are so minimal as to have no deterrent value. Unless the proposed action includes a viable and funded enforcement plan to enforce the rules, the EA is incomplete and should not be approved. The area is already crowded and already suffers from ATV use. There is no need to attract even more ATV use to this area.
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Wack
climber
Dazevue
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Unjustified temporary and permanent closures of climbing areas are probably not supported by the ORV community who have witnessed their share of the recreational pie dwindle. There is a revolution going on in the Sierra Club in Santa Cruz due to their inflexible stance on mountain biking. Cali ORV parks are funded by ORV registration fees and taxes allowing them to ride without inconveniencing hikers, horseback riders and containing their damage. Yet they are under siege in these paid for areas. To save our open lands requires diverse user groups working together to restrict development and exploitation. Their tolerance for the unconventional climbing lifestyle would be much more in alignment than the public's in general.
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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Donini - I just don't want to see unecessary conflicts between largely incompatible user groups! That brings to mind the time there was just that (conflict) between dirtbiker's and climbers at the Santee boulders. It got so tumultous (name calling and threats) that a couple of the biker's ended up spilling a couple quarts/gallon of used motor oil down one of the popular faces. It took mega cleaning plus a number of years before that face returned to normal.
edit: Chaz - yea, that is definitely a lame way to have "fun"/desecrate at the expense of everyone else, imo! but prollie not representitive of most atv jocks, eh?
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Roadie
Trad climber
Bishop, Ca
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For starters Indian Creek is in San Juan county, not Grand.
Secondly, as a former long time IC local I have seen and heard motorized recreation going on there since the 90s.
Thirdly, their camps usually make the climber camps look pretty good. (Quite an accomplishment given the last time I was there The Superbowl looked like a Lollapalooza parking lot.)
Lastly, IT’S PUBLIC LAND.
For perhaps the second time in my life I agree with Jim, it causes me pain, real physical pain, personally I hate the things, they’re like chainsaws with tires but they have I right to be there.
Don’t expect you can take away someone else’s right to use the land and then be all surprised and pissy when yours is called into question.
If you don’t like the noise people then branch out! There’s a whole other IC waiting to be developed up Hearts Draw. There are -hundreds- of towers that are still untouched.
End of rant.
Thank you,
Steve Seats
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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I was at that site yesterday, in a hurry, and missed the comment link and shelved the project until tonight.
I gotta say I disagree with you on this one Chief. Since those guys Are limited about where they can go, this a plan to build a new trail/road where none exists now. I think that is a bad idea. They have hundreds or thousands of miles out here where they already have access. They don't need this one,at the cost to the environment it would entail.
As far as various use groups' rights go, it's not exactly like climbing is allowed everywhere, either, now is it? How about an example; We are completely denied climbing access to Chiricauha NM in southern Az. Zillions of the coolest towers on the planet are off limits. Ever been there? It would be a signature major destination climbing spot of the southwest. But it's not allowed, so we live with it. The ATVers can live without one more plant destroying, noisy rutted dirt track... Though it looks like they are gonna get their way with the land on this one.
Not long ago, while climbing in Blair Wyo, we heard an ATV approaching and none other than a certain Master of Kludge commented, "here comes another fat boy toy "
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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I climb in one area where there is a long line of rocks.
The best rocks seem to have the longest approaches and the ATVs tend to stay near the not as good rocks. Those that bother with the long approach have often been bedeviled by flat tires and end up doing quite a trudge.
I've been lucky and have only had one flat so far.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Done
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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I'm with you Jay. This one will have minimal impact but it's a precedent. There are two million acres for them to play in. We have to extend are influence and be proactive about any additional development. Events like the 13th where we work with and get to personally know land managers are important and effective.
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
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Off road ATV use is another give away program by the Federal government that benefits a few at the expense of others...The ATVers tear up the logging roads and trails that MT. Bikers use , degrading the experience for other forest users ...The county gets re-imbursed by the feds to grade and maintain these roads then they get torn up again by the jack-ass moto heads...The Mt. biking experience has deteriorated here on the East Side thanks to popularity of the lame moto head sports...I have come close several times to running over the dumb-ass ATVers who were out of control and on my side of the road...I need to buy one of those cow-catchers and mount it on the front of my truck...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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When 3 wheelers were outlawed in the 80's the four major Japanese supplier's answer was the 4 wheel "quad".
This was the beginning of the end for Off Road Motorcycle riding.
With considerable damage where ever they roamed, Quads were driven by folks with little or no training and it showed. Because of their large and heavy footprint, quads destroy roads, trails and meadows in very little time.
The ease and lack of talent it takes to drive a quad is why we have so many irresponsible people riding off road.
Quads are the problem.
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skywalker
climber
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Well I have read all the posts and side with keeping recreation use seperate. For one we are talking about a community (climbers) that tends to "walk" and enjoy the solitude.
The other group may enjoy the same but in a different way. Now having said this I admit I am one who loves moto-x. Grew up with it but I do see a conflict.
As a father, I once had the horror of pulling my kid out of the way of an ATV going who knows how fast; it could have well been a person on a motorcycle, same result. There was no way they could have stopped in time. I went home, it wasn't a safe environment.
So for me its not that I don't like ATV's etc, I actually love them but I would like to know I can go to a certain place where I don't need to worry about them safety wise.
A certain place in Wyoming is becoming a reminder of this. Again not that I have any beef with ATV's/ motorcycles just keep em' seperated a little.
Anyway,
Carry on...
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Chewybacca
Trad climber
Montana, Whitefish
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I think it is a bad idea for climbers to alienate the off-road community. They have a powerful lobby and can make for good allies when it comes to access issues.
I'm curious as to why off-roading and climbing are incompatible. Personally I think they can be complimentary. I don't see how riding an ATV to the crags is any different than driving a car/truck to the crags. And no, I'm not going to generalize all off-roaders by the actions of a minority. Most off-roaders are responsible with their recreation.
Back to my main point, we should be making allies in the land use/access issues, not enemies. Just because someone chooses a different form of recreation does not make them evil.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Definetely don't alienate, I coexist them every day at sandflats, but take each situation on as case by case basis. This one is unworthy.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
the secret topout on the Chockstone Chimney
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"As far as Destruction of natural habitat goes, trails left by Motorcycle and ATV's will disappear in a few years of non-use."
This of course depends on one's definition of 'a few years', but those wagon ruts from 150 years ago are indeed still visible all over the West. And the Colorado Plateau is quite a bit more fragile than the plains.
Your ad hominem generalizations are unconvincing, Chief. Sounds like quite a few climbers on this thread don't quite fit your tidy little categories. Yes, climbers drive to the crags, and then? They park. And walk. Driving around is not the primary activity. It's a means to get someplace remote and quiet, which is tough to enjoy if a bunch of yahoos are constantly roaring past on their ATVs. The OHVers pretty much have Utah BLM in their pocket, and the industry has a whole lot more money to lobby for access than the human-powered folk. It would be real nice if they found someplace else to trash.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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And those are only the less permanent impacts.
To me ATVs are like guns.
Most yahoos abuse them and it reflects poorly on the community.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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How about all them WHITE CHALK hand prints plastered in all them cracks and faces that in fact can be seen from all them access roads.
I've told you about leaving tick marks, damnit!
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Olde Skool chippers and tickers...
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Joshua thinks dirtbikes are cool.
He'll learn and ride responsibly all his life and have so much fun sharing his sport with others. He'll become a strong self sufficient athlete all the while.
He'll learn acceptance and tolerance as well.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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As mentioned upthread there are appropriate places for each activity. I don't know the area in question so I won't comment.
There are plenty of OHVers who are great athletes and aware of enviro issues. There are climbers who leave trash, cig butts, tape, and sh#t. Granted the average OHVer is less aware and will cause more impact that the average climber.
Pud's right ATVs are a way bigger problem than bikes. Any yahoo can jump on an ATV, while a bike takes some skill. There are way more injuries from ATVs because people are usually more experienced and careful on bikes. In Cali parks you can ride a bike without a helmet and can carry a passenger, while helmets are required on ATVs and no passengers (in response to the problems from ATVs).
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