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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Sep 11, 2012 - 01:14pm PT
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The Swiss president who pushed through their system got voted out. She was liberal.
It has been ten or 12 years or so, and they interview the current president, who is a typical Swiss conservative. He was originally against it, but when asked what would happen if someone went bankrupt over health bills, he said it would be a national scandal.
Look. As disfunctional and corrupt as our congress is, these countries have far cheaper and better healthcare than the U.S. Period.
It is the insurance companies who run the show here, not the docs. Find me one doctor who likes insurance companies.
Switzerland made them non profit, but they still compete rabidly for business. Watch the show and it is pretty cool how they did it.
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nutjob
Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
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+1 for Ken M and Base104's suggestions.
Watching that video is what inspired me to start this thread.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Sep 11, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
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Japan is full of these smaller MRI machines that are much cheaper and very good for most procedures.
Here in the U.S., the machines are zillion dollar GE machines that cost millions. So you can get an MRI in Japan for an actual lower cost.
Really, nobody should even debate healthcare until you watch that Frontline piece. Frontline is not a partisan series. I remember them crucifying Clinton over Whitewater.
It is very well done and covers how to control costs. I think that Germany is the only one where doctors actually make less money. They interview some of the doctors and they are still rich. Just less rich.
This whole Come to Jesus moment that conservatives suddenly about faced, the tea party, is funded by the Koch Brothers. They are big libertarians, have been caught stealing oil from the Osage tribe, and are generally disliked by other oil companies.
I don't get any production checks from Koch these days.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Sep 11, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
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I think an MRI in Japan is something like $90.
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sempervirens
climber
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Sep 13, 2012 - 12:12am PT
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Ken M, I think you'd be interested in the following re the question, "who wrote the Affordable Care Act".
Ezekial Emanuel is Rahm's brother - which gives him very significant ties to industry. He did not write the ACA. Liz Fowler, former Senior VP of Public Policy for WellPoint (one of the largest private health insurers in the US) left her job to oversee the process in the Senate Finance Committee (chair Max Baucus). She authored the white paper that outlined the bill in late 2008. The bill was shaped by 3 committees in the House and 2 in the Senate but as it went along it became more and more like the white paper that Fowler wrote. After the bill was signed into law, Obama appointed Fowler to the Dept of Health and Human Services to oversee the regulation process. Pretty heavy industry involvement.
Also, after the Supreme Court decision on the ACA which allowed states to opt out of the Medicaid expansion, WellPoit bought Amerigroup - the greatest private administrator of Medicaid. You can expect further privatization of Medicaid which will degrade it even further.
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sempervirens
climber
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Sep 13, 2012 - 11:18pm PT
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Dr Ezekial Emanuel is a special adviser to Peter Orszag of OMB. He would like an even more market-based system than the ACA. For more info on Liz Fowler and a critique of the ACA, go to pnhp.org.
Or see Dr Margaret Flowers on the Bill Moyer show:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/02052010/profile3.html
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Sep 14, 2012 - 01:11am PT
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I will say that you are posting some dated things regarding Zeke. I know him personally, and you'd not know a better doctor.
Here is a fascinating interview by Charlie Rose of the three Emanual brothers. Fascinating childhoods:
http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/9130
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Sep 14, 2012 - 01:18am PT
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The title of this thread is "Healthcare debate in the USA."
Might as well be the title of a fantasy or SF novel, because there is really no possibility of a debate on this subject in the US. As far as I can tell, when it comes to healthcare, there are two groups of people in the US. One group of people says "We've got a problem here, how can we fix it?" The other group says: "No way I'm going to listen to you f*#king communists!"
How is debate possible?
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
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Sep 14, 2012 - 01:24am PT
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Ken M said I think an MRI in Japan is something like $90
An MRI in the States only costs about $300-$350 if you go to an imaging place that only does MRIs. The added costs come when you get an MRI at a hospital that has to pay for all the other things that don't get reimbursed because people either have no insurance, are under-insured or have insurance (especially medicare/medicaid) that doesn't reimburse for the full costs of things.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Thirty years ago, I was in a bad accident. Lots on internal bleeding. Ruptured spleen. Lacerated liver and stomach. Good times. My stay in the first hospital was two weeks. The bill for all of it (ambulance, ER, OR, CAT, MRI, "lodging" etc.) was $8000.
Back in the Fall, I had a work related injury. I'm confident workers comp will pay all related expenses. The following isn't about me, as much as it's about WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON IN THE HEALTHCARE INDUSTRY???
In January, I had outpatient back surgery. A little arthroscopic procedure, removing excess scar tissue. I was at the hospital for about 6 hours. Time in the OR - less than 90 minutes. Yesterday, I received a bill from the hospital. I've already gotten separate bills from the neurosurgeon, anesthesiologist, etc. This was for just the hospital providing a facility and some basic care.
The bill is for $53,900.00!!!
Seriously, **What The F*#k?**
I've been critical of universal healthcare in the past. But this level of overcharging is obscene. The bill shows an "adjustment" of $26,900, cutting the balance due by 50%, as if that's reasonable. Even though this is the first bill for this expense, it's due (or past due) in two weeks. It's all so wrong!
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dirtbag
climber
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I've been critical of universal healthcare in the past. But this level of overcharging is obscene. The bill shows an "adjustment" of $26,900, cutting the balance due by 50%, as if that's reasonable. Even though this is the first bill for this expense, it's due (or past due) in two weeks. It's all so wrong!
Oh, sh#t...sorry, man!
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Our healthcare system has so much potential with tons of great science and technology.
The way we deliver it is stooopid.
My wife was pretty impressed that I delayed my care a bit, hoping it would "just go away" and I could save a few bucks.
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Fritz
Social climber
Choss Creek, ID
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T Hocking! I like the Harvard Review article you link to.
Here's its summary:
There is, thus, plenty of evidence that not only does universal healthcare powerfully enhance the health of people, its rewards go well beyond health. There is, indeed, a strong relationship between health and economic performance, and we have every reason to base public policy on a proper understanding of the nature and reach of what is clearly a positive interdependence. There is no mystery in all this given the centrality of health for better lives and for enhancing human capabilities.
My "elective" outpatient knee surgery last October, that fixed a torn meniscus & removed a piece of bone & some "junk", went quite well & I am all but recovered. Sure glad I have both Medicare & supplemental Blue Cross Insurance, since the doctor & facility fees totaled $30,921.93 & my final cost was just my time & mileage.
Of course those Medicare benefits may not be there soon, if the Republicans in Congress have their way, with hacking that program to pieces. Another very-good reason to vote & to vote Democratic this fall.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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In January, I had outpatient back surgery. I was at the hospital for about 6 hours. Time in the OR - less than 90 minutes. Yesterday, I received a bill from the hospital. I've already gotten separate bills from the neurosurgeon, anesthesiologist, etc. This was for just the hospital providing a facility and some basic care.
The bill is for $53,900.00!!!
Sounds cheap to me. My surgery of comparable length was over $100,000. The 15 minute helicopter ride was ~$15,000 just by itself.
Yes, I realize outpatient isn't the same as ICU, but still... The $100,000 surgery bill was separate from the charges for being in the ICU unit. And somehow the ICU charges did not cover my overnight stay in the hospital, nor the nursing charges, nor the pain medication charges, nor the, I could go on and on...
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Sounds cheap to me. My surgery of comparable length was over $100,000. The 15 minute helicopter ride was ~$15,000 just by itself.
I didn't intend for this to be a competition. Just wanted to pass along an example of healthcare industry extremism.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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I didn't intend for this to be a competition. Just wanted to pass along an example of healthcare industry extremism.
I'm just being snarky.
And maybe a little bitter about how screwed up the US health care system is.
The good news is that I found out my health insurance at the time did cover climbing accidents. Up until that point, I wasn't 100% sure.
The other thing that was most disappointing: after the initial surgery, I had lots of expensive doctor visits and follow ups that accomplished nothing. They reviewed everything and sent me on my way. If something was going wrong, they might have caught it so the precautionary element was probably worth something. But in retrospect, not needed.
The only thing that did improve my situation was physical therapy, which was hard as hell to get the insurance to pay for more than 10 visits. The place I went had 4 physical therapists. It had two full time secretaries who appeared to be spending 90% of their time on the phone with insurance companies. One receptionists/secretary for 2 PTs. As Trump would say, Sad.
Cheers.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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One thing I haven't seen talked about, is what you can get rid of, if you enact Medicare for all:
Automobile Medpay
Veterans Administration
Work Comp medpay
Union insurance
Lawsuits for the purpose of finding fault to get medical coverage
And usually unaccounted costs: the legal costs of pursuing personal injury, the inflated fake medical care associated with that, the legal costs of Work Comp, the gov't costs of providing courtrooms, etc, to adjudicate such cases.
This stuff costs A LOT
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Xcon (Con is right), you missed mentioning Nancy Pelosi and Benghazi, too.
As usual, you are highlighting the successes, and why you oppose it.
It seems pretty clear that we can't make the transition to Medicare for all, politically, unless it is done by shoving it down a lot of people's throats.
The key is "transition". For 100 years, Presidents of both parties have been trying to enact universal healthcare of some form. Obama largely succeeded, but with a system that he barely got by, and which has the many problems of a "partway" solution.
We need to take the next step, and that is probably not trying to force Medicare through, for which there is probably not sufficient support.
So----try to make things better, or just wait?
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hooblie
climber
from out where the anecdotes roam
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what you can get rid of, if you enact Medicare
how about landmark skyscrapers throughout the country buzzing with frenzied coverage deny-ers. insurance companies are the pyramid builders of our time
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