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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 15, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
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Are you being bad cop or good cop now?
Somebody said it best earlier;
When a foolish man is confronted he either gets angry or laughs.
Think about it; see if this pertains to you...
Jus Bumm'in
BB
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 15, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
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MikeL, in rereading your last post, it occurs to me that I may have taken what you said wrongly. It sure seemed to me that you were suggesting that I was a dilettente and had only had shallow knowledge of what I was talking about. if you did not intend this, I apologize - in fact, I apologize in any case. I also apologize for getting too personal with Largo. With respect to Largo, I DO think he throws his weight around in some of these threads in a way that seems very arrogant to me. For some reason I was especially sensitive to that this past weekend. As HFCS apparently knows, I'm more typically an easy-going guy who tries to make people laugh.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 15, 2012 - 04:58pm PT
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Of course I throw my weight around. It's part of the circus.
So call me a light weight. I'm excruciating because I won't back off.
The reasons people get bent is that they are not used to having their core beliefs challenged. The most challenging thing to the atheist camp is that scientism is simply another perspective and that quantification is not the last word. Most atheists have on a psychological level simply swapped out physicalism with "God," and now material reductionism is the last word. I say bollocks. Real science, not science fiction, is a fantastic tool. But when we have "neuroscientists" claiming to make machines that can love and people insisting that looking at objective brain funcioning is the very same as looking at experience itself, I have to chime in on what to me seems lile manifest gibberish.
And Malemute - pry your head out of that bear trap for a sec. I have some "adequate" real estate on Mars for you and it's your for free once you show all us dummies the very quadrant of the brain that "creates" self awareness, or failing that - a "simplistic" take on consciousness if ever there was one - at which point and how does raw awareness become an "emergent function" or epiphenomenon in this here space and time.
JL
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:00pm PT
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See, you're too nice for these debate threads.
No worries, though, I'll put these pinhead knuckledraggers in their place as required.
.....
Ah, I see Largo just posted...
Case in point, if they weren't looking to mix it up some they probably wouldn't come to these threads in the first place particularly with the rhetoric or vocabulary they use or their caricatures of science or whatever.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
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John Long
curious, if you would
Do you personally believe that there IS a supreme being, a god?
And if so, that the god you believe in does indeed take a personal interest in humans?
And if so, did this god "create" the physical universe this earth is a part of?
And if so, did this god "allow" evolution or even direct evolution to occur on this earth, with the intent being the resultant human species evolved to present day level?
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
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In short, I wonder why Blue and Largo just don't go hook up?
.....
By the way, BlueBR, confess if you would: Are you this Illusion Dweller (aka Truthdweller) guy?
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
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There's a key difference. Scientists (mostly atheists or agnostics) know they don't know everything, and never will. Believers tend to think that they know everything, or at least the spaghetti monster has told them everything that they need to know. Which may help explain why scientists are at heart curious and explorers, and many of the religious are less so.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
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So be it, Largo. And I will continue to think that you are are completely wrongheaded on this subject:)
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
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Believers tend to think that they know everything
this seems to be an accurate statement
Blu is a case in point, he considers himself enough of an expert on Atheism as to post exactly what Atheists believe and think to themselves
Blu also admits failing high school biology, seemingly proudly, and then posts in such a way as to seek constantly to discredit the rigorous scientific method, especially as it relates to "evolution", presumably because of his personal fear that the direct fossil and dating evidence of human evolution proves his Biblically Genesis belief wrong.
Thus, the more he can deny science, evidence, fossils and dating, then the more assured he is that there were NO humans prior to Adam and Eve, the earth IS 6000 years old, and God the Almighty "created" this earth in six days, then rested.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:22pm PT
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John Long
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Yo
curious, if you would
Do you personally believe that there IS a supreme being, a god?
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Not in the old time religious sense of the word. It is my understanding that "god," truth and reality are all basically the same thing - not exactly pantheism, but something mysterious and ungraspable at depth. Our discursive minds are made to and evolved for the purpose of surviving and that means we are set up to contrast and quantify things, or the "many." Our rational mind don't work well with infinite qualities ("God"), which we cannot quantify, so attempts to frame this naturally take novel forms. Investigating this question is an adventure worth having IMO.
And if so, that the god you believe in does indeed take a personal interest in humans?
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Do I think there's a "God" in a rocking chair talking to "His" children. No. Do I think there is some universal and timeless energy variously called "agape," "compassion," "grace," "love," which is not merely an evolved biological impulse for survival - I do. Do I have material "proof" of same. I do not.
--
And if so, did this god "create" the physical universe this earth is a part of?
--
I do not believe in a primordial creation, whether by God or by singularity or whatever. Reality is unborn and never ending.
And if so, did this god "allow" evolution or even direct evolution to occur on this earth, with the intent of resultant human species evolved to present day level?
I believe reality and mind are always a play between opposites, wakefullness and sleep, inhale and exhale and exhale, the impulse toward complexity and entropy and aging, being and doing, thinking and being, life and death. So to me evolution is just another universal constant.
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An interesting note is how some feel I am "wrongheaded" on the subject, but never bother to spell out where they believe I have gone wrong? that's that so screwy. I do a poor (instant) but scattershot of qualifying my ideas, but others take issue with me while not saying where they feel the issue lies.
JL
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:25pm PT
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Eeyonkee
Thank you for your last post that out let's get back to what "matter"s
"Edit: To answer your question about what it is you don't understand. It's this. Novel and complex things can seemingly come out of nowhere even with a "mechanistic" starting point. That's what you underestimate, IMO."
This seems like a magical explanation for a mechanistic world. So when you can't connect the dots. Your estimation is that "poof" something from somewhere offers incentive? I don't get it can you offer an example?
Saying the eyeball evolved. Understanding the complexities of the eyeball and the brain for that matter. To say these evolved without consciousness seems ludicrous. How would life even "think" that there was something to "see"? Doesn't make sense to me!
Maybe an animal was just hopping around one day with no eyes. And then poof he could see
Thus becoming aware? consciousness following matter? Is this how you assume the universe works?
Jus Wonder'in
BB
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
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Hfcs
No. Honestly I have a hard enough time just being blue.
People outside of the climbing community tend to call me Michael Sanderson
I'm not sure why ?I'm only happy when I'm blue!
Jus Blue'in
BB
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
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Largo, I thought I answered at least part of what you are wrongheaded about a couple of posts back. You throw your weight around in spite of having something less than, oh, intellectual heft, IMO.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:56pm PT
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Blue, sorry, but it's pretty clear that you do not have the background in science and evolution to be throwing out challenges like this. Like Ed said to MikeL on another thread, go and read a book or two (or three) on the subject.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 15, 2012 - 05:57pm PT
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John Long,
thank you for your answers
how about a few more questions?
I take it from your answers that you do NOT believe in a "god" because nowhere did you say that you did
But you do say that "life" on earth in your opinion did NOT come from "primordial", so am I inferring correctly that life on earth from the very first collection of single cells and onward through accepted evolution did NOT occur?
If I have your thoughts right, then from "what" then DID life on earth come from?
And forgive and correct me if I have interpreted your answers wrong.
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 15, 2012 - 06:03pm PT
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Blue, sorry, but it's pretty clear that you do not have the background in science and evolution to be throwing out challenges like this. Like Ed said to MikeL on another thread, go and read a book or two (or three) on the subject.
thank you for this
I have asked Blu a number of times to first state his "expertise" in order to then criticize science as being "lacking" somehow in regards to its findings regarding human evolution
AND also the physical creation and evolution of our own earth
Blu also goes after Atheists in a number of ways, often "speaking" FOR Atheists and saying as if it was FACT what they believe and why they believe what they believe
Yet Blu is decidedly NOT an Atheist, and I highly doubt he ever was one, although he recently said he WAS an Atheist for 40 years, presumably to show that he became "enlightened" through Jesus later in life, and therefore his beliefs are superior
because he experienced Atheism. Bullhocky I say.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 15, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
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Norton
Case in point; if I knew everything I wouldn't be talking to you.
I am sorry if I offended you personally somehow. not my intentions I don't even know you.
Only the accusations you exalt. I humbly concur to be an idiot. I do not contend to have any materialistic proof for my statements. I also recognize you don't either. We only have language
Words. My only intention is to scramble them up and try to secrete some truth.
Jus Scramble'in
BB
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Norton
Social climber
the Wastelands
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Oct 15, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
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Blue, sorry, but it's pretty clear that you do not have the background in science and evolution to be throwing out challenges like this. Like Ed said to MikeL on another thread, go and read a book or two (or three) on the subject.
thank you for this
I have asked Blu a number of times to first state his "expertise" in order to then criticize science as being "lacking" somehow in regards to its findings regarding human evolution
AND also the physical creation and evolution of our own earth
Blu also goes after Atheists in a number of ways, often "speaking" FOR Atheists and saying as if it was FACT what they believe and why they believe what they believe
Yet Blu is decidedly NOT an Atheist, and I highly doubt he ever was one, although he recently said he WAS an Atheist for 40 years, presumably to show that he became "enlightened" through Jesus later in life, and therefore his beliefs are superior
because he experienced Atheism. Bullhocky I say.
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eeyonkee
Trad climber
Golden, CO
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Oct 15, 2012 - 06:06pm PT
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At one point i assumed that Blue was another avatar of Fish.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Oct 15, 2012 - 06:24pm PT
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Eeykonee
Seems obvious you don't have much of a background in common sense.( "conscience")
I tried to ask you serious questions about your personal beliefs( not that which is found in a book of someone else's belief). in a simple way that I could understand.
But I guess you're too smart to teach a dummy a thing or two?
By the way can I borrow your book on magic?
Jus Ask'in
BB
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