Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
|
His life was becoming ALL about doping instead of about cancer, charity, etc. If he did it or not, it sucks that others keep on this stuff constantly until someone is defeated emotionally and has given years of their life doing nothing but defending themselves. Until I have been in a similar position, I do not know if I would fight to the death or just want to move on.
But I guess The Chief has been there and fought to the bitter end. How else would he know that LA is guilty.
Guilty until proven innocent is becoming the norm in our society. Too bad for those guys (LA or not) who are innocent and get reamed (literally?).
Dave
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
|
Tempest in a teapot.
Athletic excellence is about human performance not body chemistry.
What gets me is DQing people for testing positive for weed.
Hell, if they still win they should get their medal adorned with little bud clusters!
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
|
Weed must be a performance enhancing substance.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
|
The butt hurt guys are Frankly Andreau and Johnathan Vaughters who thought they had the ability to win those races if everyone was clean. Those two dip shits couldnt figure out they were the only clean guys and everyone else was doping.
Vaughters admitted to doping.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
|
Just so everyone is clear... blood doping is nothing like steroids. 'dope' just happens to be what people from the 50's called anything schedule 1.
|
|
Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
|
So it's different from the medical dope that's an important part of the bicycle community around here.
( at least it's important among the Mountain Bike community )
|
|
Curt
Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
|
From the AP:
The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency erased 14 years of Lance Armstrong's career Friday — including his record seven Tour de France titles — and banned him for life from the sport that made him a hero to millions of cancer survivors after concluding he used banned substances.
USADA said it expected cycling's governing body to take similar action, but the International Cycling Union was measured in its response, saying it first wanted a full explanation on why Armstrong should relinquish titles he won from 1999 through 2005.
At least the ICU doesn't appear to be the same breed of hysterical witch hunters.
Curt
|
|
Gorgeous George
Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
|
The lesson here? I'M A DOPE FOR NOT DOPING!
Hey, can anyone do LA a favor and introduce him to Greg Mortenson? Now that would make a dynamic duo. Think of the potential!
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
|
edit. Hey, where did that "Vaughters admitted" comment go?
still there.
|
|
Vegasclimber
Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
|
More then anything, I am concerned about the level of power that this agency has, or acts like it has. Regardless of my personal beliefs, the fact is that not one - not ONE - piece of evidence has been released to back their claims. I'm not from the show me state, but you're going to have to show me.
I have plenty of faith in modern science, so if you can show me he cheated, then I will accept it, realize that LA is a dirty doper....and then go on with my life not really giving a sh#t. But until then, I BELIEVE THAT A MAN IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.
Yes, I enjoyed watching him beat the piss out of everyone year after year, but in the big scheme of things, who f*#king cares? A result either way isn't going to change your life or mine. It's just another "hot button issue" for people to fight over.
What bothers me is that the USADA is stripping people of titles without legal right to do so. the IOC has repeatedly told the USADA that they do not have the authority to strip any cyclists titles. However, this organization is so bloated with taxpayer dollars that it just stomps over and bullies anyone they can to get them to go along with their actions.
Basically, the USADA is stripping titles of a race that happens in another country. They charge people and then do not allow that charge to be contended in court. Once they make a decision, it's final, and you have NO right of recourse or appeal. Yes, they allow you to have "arbitration" - to them, that means "We are going to let you sit here while we tell you that you're screwed, and make more money off the taxpayers while you pay more to your lawyers. Then we will let you go home."
At the end of the day, they simply do not have the right to strip Lance's titles. That right resides with the IOC.
What Lance did here was a very smart move on his part. I'd be tired of it too, on the heels of a 2 year federal investigation that didn't find jack sh#t. The whole reason this went to the USADA was because of the fact that they cannot be overruled.
What he has done here, is forced the IOC to back up their claim that the USADA has no jurisdiction over the riders. The IOC has the resources and the power to negate the USADA's actions and restore Lance's titles. The IOC is guaranteed to demand that the positive tests and other evidence be turned over to them, prior to allowing the ban to be instated permanently. Let these two fight it out in the international courts, while Lance gets back to running the cancer organization that is his focus and raising his kids.
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
|
...He has tested positive- his samples now test positive for EPO.
And they will test positive for all the other stuff also - he was infusing plasma and involved in some very complex masking tricks.
Source please..?
Thanks for the coherent comments from Vegasclimber.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
|
If the USADA had any bloodwork which proved doping this would have been an open and shut case concluded years ago. Instead it's clear they have no bloodwork evidence of any kind and only have testimony that he doped. From my perspective it's basically irrelevant whether he did or didn't; what is relevant is that an anti-doping agency built on a science and regiem of relentless analytical bloodworkups is able to provide condemning bloodwork or they can't - but conclusive bloodwork is the only basis by which such an agency should be able to make accusations actionable, not hearsay.
|
|
Argon
climber
North Bay, CA
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
|
Prosecutorial overreach and abuse is the real threat here. Count USADA as just another over zealous agency among the out of control, alphabet soup myriad levels of government and bureaucracy that Americans are subjected to.
|
|
Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
|
This doesn't change anything. Everyone has their breaking point, he has finally reached his. It is important to note he has been fighting this battle for over 10 years. That has got to take a toll on you, especially when they have yet to provide physical evidence, and once again it comes down to testimony of people who literally have had it out for him for years by their own admission. His chances of getting a fair hearing went out the window a long time ago. In addition, USADAs clearly stalking / unhealthy obsession is a great example of an obvious personal vendetta that had nothing to do with the actual facts, but became a personal crusade by those who wanted to be Elliot Ness.
I am not saying he is clean or dirty, I am saying the guy is a champion of the like we can only wish to see again. What he has done for the sport of cycling and what he has done for cancer victims is so far beyond anyone else's contribution, that we all owe him thanks, not some bull$hit righteous condemnation.
|
|
Crimpergirl
Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
|
+100 for Vegasclimber's comment. I stand with you VC.
The idea that "everyone dopes" makes banning one person all the more ridiculous. If they ALL dope, then why ban one guy?
|
|
Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
|
Okay, I've finally found the perfect summary of the whole business. It's from a piece by Michael Rosenberg in Sports Illustrated.
Even if you believe his accusers, as I do, you must admit: The accusers make you want to wash your hands. This was a case between a likely drug cheat and obsessive, unlikeable prosecutors, fueled by other drug cheats as witnesses. If this were divorce court and I were a judge, I'd give all the money to the dog.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
|
a legal question?
here are the charges the USADA is charging him with (from cyclingnews)
//The anti-doping rule violations for which Mr. Armstrong is being sanctioned are:
(1) Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.
(2) Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices), testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.
(3) Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and corticosteroids.
(4) Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone, and cortisone.
(5) Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule violations.
Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed//
Some of them are criminal offenses. Now the Federal Govt. couldn't press charges against him for lack of evidence. So does the USADA only have to a "preponderance of the evidence"? Or can they just rule how they wish with no legal recourse for the accused (beyond arbitration)? Is it similar to civil vs criminal case?
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
|
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
|
As someone who has quite a bit of personal experience with prosecutorial overreach, and the personal cost of fighting it, this case saddens me greatly. Dougal Haston wrote in Mountain magazine about 40 years ago that whenever great men appear, there will always be little men to belittle them. This looks to me rather like that.
I wish Armstrong had continued the fight, even though the deck was stacked against him, but doing so wears a person down, and it is virtually impossible to fully recover a reputation after an accusation, even a false one. The USADA, like the NCAA, has virtually none of the fundamental checks on their power that we would consider "due process" under the Fifth Amendment. They have none of the limits of legal rules of evidence, and there is no presumption of innocence. Once they accuse someone, the accused must prove they didn't dope. How can anyone do that? The mere accusation, coupled with winning, will always create doubt.
While I accept the possibility that he was, in fact, doping in some way, shape or form, this matter still smells of jealousy and pettiness, not justice.
John
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!