Lance Armstrong accepts lifetime ban, loss of Tour de France

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Messages 1 - 798 of total 798 in this topic
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 23, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
Does this mean they give him his cancer back too?
skywalker

climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:12pm PT
Bummer,

Was a hero to many many people even beyond cycling.

S...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
Whatever...!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
Lance didn't really dope....Common sense tells me so...RJ
jmap

Social climber
NC
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
What a total crock of sh#t. There's not a clean cyclist in the peloton.

Sonic

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
Still would be hard to win a tour de France with doping.
mitchy

Trad climber
new england
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
So the cat is getting rail roaded, and is sick of the BS.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:28pm PT
Chief...There is no such thing as doping...Doping is a cyclical thing....RJ
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
Armstrong does not recognize agency's right to ban him
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrongs-full-statement-on-usada



Statement by Lance Armstrong

There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a two-year federal criminal investigation followed by Travis Tygart's unconstitutional witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today - finished with this nonsense. I had hoped that a federal court would stop USADA's charade. Although the court was sympathetic to my concerns and recognized the many improprieties and deficiencies in USADA's motives, its conduct, and its process, the court ultimately decided that it could not intervene.

If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA's process, I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and - once and for all - put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance. But I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair. Regardless of what Travis Tygart says, there is zero physical evidence to support his outlandish and heinous claims. The only physical evidence here is the hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colors. I made myself available around the clock and around the world. In-competition. Out of competition. Blood. Urine. Whatever they asked for I provided. What is the point of all this testing if, in the end, USADA will not stand by it?

From the beginning, however, this investigation has not been about learning the truth or cleaning up cycling, but about punishing me at all costs. I am a retired cyclist, yet USADA has lodged charges over 17 years old despite its own 8-year limitation. As respected organizations such as UCI and USA Cycling have made clear, USADA lacks jurisdiction even to bring these charges. The international bodies governing cycling have ordered USADA to stop, have given notice that no one should participate in USADA's improper proceedings, and have made it clear the pronouncements by USADA that it has banned people for life or stripped them of their accomplishments are made without authority. And as many others, including USADA's own arbitrators, have found, there is nothing even remotely fair about its process. USADA has broken the law, turned its back on its own rules, and stiff-armed those who have tried to persuade USADA to honor its obligations. At every turn, USADA has played the role of a bully, threatening everyone in its way and challenging the good faith of anyone who questions its motives or its methods, all at U.S. taxpayers' expense.

For the last two months, USADA has endlessly repeated the mantra that there should be a single set of rules, applicable to all, but they have arrogantly refused to practice what they preach. On top of all that, USADA has allegedly made deals with other riders that circumvent their own rules as long as they said I cheated. Many of those riders continue to race today. The bottom line is I played by the rules that were put in place by the UCI, WADA and USADA when I raced. The idea that athletes can be convicted today without positive A and B samples, under the same rules and procedures that apply to athletes with positive tests, perverts the system and creates a process where any begrudged ex teammate can open a USADA case out of spite or for personal gain or a cheating cyclist can cut a sweetheart deal for themselves. It's an unfair approach, applied selectively, in opposition to all the rules. It's just not right.

USADA cannot assert control of a professional international sport and attempt to strip my seven Tour de France titles. I know who won those seven Tours, my teammates know who won those seven Tours, and everyone I competed against knows who won those seven Tours. We all raced together. For three weeks over the same roads, the same mountains, and against all the weather and elements that we had to confront. There were no shortcuts, there was no special treatment. The same courses, the same rules. The toughest event in the world where the strongest man wins. Nobody can ever change that. Especially not Travis Tygart.

Today I turn the page. I will no longer address this issue, regardless of the circumstances. I will commit myself to the work I began before ever winning a single Tour de France title: serving people and families affected by cancer, especially those in underserved communities. This October, my Foundation will celebrate 15 years of service to cancer survivors and the milestone of raising nearly $500 million. We have a lot of work to do and I'm looking forward to an end to this pointless distraction. I have a responsibility to all those who have stepped forward to devote their time and energy to the cancer cause. I will not stop fighting for that mission. Going forward, I am going to devote myself to raising my five beautiful (and energetic) kids, fighting cancer, and attempting to be the fittest 40-year old on the planet.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:31pm PT
What a f*#king joke. It's like giveing sport climbers sh#t for pre hung draws.... i bet there was nobody in the top 20 that was not dopeing.........
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
I bet there are some of those TDFs that at least the top 5 have been accused of doping. I do know that the yellow jersey for the 2004 TDF will be given to Roberto Albertini. He crashed out during the prologue. Since he never finished a stage he never was tested. Now he is a TDF Champion!!!


VIVA Albertini!!!!!!!
pazzo

climber
Vancouver BC
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:36pm PT
If they all dope then who cares. It’s fair right?
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:41pm PT
Why do they need to break down everything, make such a stink that we can't have heroes anymore? If he passed then, why does he have to keep dealing with the questions years later? It doesn't feel right, or fair...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
That is so fckin weak.. give it to the only guy we didn't catch dopeing and we only did not catch him because he did not finish.........
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:46pm PT
I've seen no proof that he doped. I have no idea if he did or not. It is clear that Millions of dollars have been spent trying to discredit him.. but still no PROOF?

Odd isn't it.

Without PROOF, he is innocent.

That is all.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
So, chiefman, why do have such a hard-on for this? He doped? He didn't dope? What knowledge do you actually have? Seems you just get a giant boner at the thought of pushing some hero off a pedestal.

Suppose he did dope. Strip him of his titles, and...

...and what? Award the win to whatever doper placed second?

And don't tell me that all those guys that placed second were clean when the guy that placed first wasn't. You've got no more clue about that than about whether or not Armstrong doped.

Or do you? Do you have all the evidence, but somehow were just too busy to bring it to the cycling authorities?

Who gives a flying f*#k? The guy, doper or not, was a better cyclist than all the other dopers he raced against, and also did something none of them did -- raised half a billion for cancer research.
Matt

Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/judge-issues-stinging-criticism-of-usada-in-armstrong-case

interesting angle on the mess
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
Bingo!
heck there were losers dopeing in our gym who had never won anything significant and you know damn well all the top guys wrer doing the same crap X10. BFD
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:07pm PT
Hey The Chief . . . you are the f*#king pathetic loser. What have you dedicated you efforts to, besides being a willy waver?
Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
It's hard to believe that someone of Armstrong's tenacity and dedication would roll over and choose not to fight anymore if he was truly innocent . Is it impossible for him to focus on his charity and fight the charges?
nutjob

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:09pm PT
Perhaps after years of battle he has decided that he will never be exonerated in that process, so continued engagement has no upside.

That indicates nothing about whether he is guilty or innocent. Just that he's done fighting what he thinks is a pointless fight. Giving up a pointless fight is not inconsistent with being a champion and fighting long odds where it matters and where one's actions can influence the outcome.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:09pm PT

According to the article , only the UCI has the power to ban Lance , not USADA....Wha , wha , wha , wha...!
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
That is why LA threw in the towel today.
Whatever dude . . . you are still an as#@&%e.

There is no false hero . . . just an extremely pathetic nobody that is dissing on someone that has accomplished something in their life.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
There are better things to spend our tax dollars on!!!

I propose that those dollars be spent on research into, or solutions to, the global warming problem. This actually has two huge advantages: first, it channels time, money, and human energy into something useful instead of a complete waste, and second, The Chief will hate it just as much! The rest of us get some real benefit, and he gets to keep on ranting -- it's a win/win!
pc

climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:11pm PT
+1 on the bingo.

It's just frickin' entertainment. Who cares? And he does a lot of good for folks who don't have any hope at all.

7 new TdF winners? Joke. Though I'd love to see Jan Ullrich get one of them.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:13pm PT
Armstrong IS a wizard, so it's right to have a witch hunt, eh?

And

http://360jokes.com/car-2/get-out-of-my-way-say-no-to-doping/
MisterE

Social climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
Man, what a mess.

What would really kill me, though, is losing the rockin' girl

Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
Does this mean they give him his cancer back too?

Sounds like The Chief probably wouldn't mind that either.

Curt
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
no one ever seriously thought he did not dope. It's fecking cycling, they all dope. BFD..............
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:20pm PT
Eggs ackley, my man! Majority of dopers, minority of non-dopers, anyway. They all seem to admit this. Coyly, of course.

Chief, the Tea Party needs you, bud.
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:21pm PT
I might be an as#@&%e but not close to the LOOOOOOOOOOOOSER lying cheat that swindle all you sheep out there over the years into believing he was a perfect saint and then stole millions in prize money and endorsements.

Who ever implied that anyone is a saint? You've got some issues dude . . . professional sports are all about performance enhancement. Cyclists have been "enhancing" long before Lance was even born. Pull your pin head out of your ass and focus on your issues.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
Ghost, I am sure you agree:

The fox smells his own hole
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:26pm PT
Let me ask you this: if you didn't dope, and came in 2nd place to Lance, would your thoughts be different?

I always wondered if the loss of the testosterone which the other (missing) ball should have pumped out was never an issue nor slowed the man down. Clearly the man has drive and talent. He wouldn't back off so easily if he thought he could win his case.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:29pm PT
ghost,
Seems you just get a giant boner at the thought of pushing some hero off a pedestal.

LOL!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:32pm PT
I doped when I climbed El Cap,.....ten times........

Damn, are y'all gonna take my titles away?????
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
Lance's net worth is $125 million so in a sense he did get away
with it.


http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-athletes/olympians/lance-armstrong-net-worth/

Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:03am PT
That is the tale of our society... regardless the truth.

Give me a fukking break. The last thing you care about is truth. Maybe LA doped and maybe he didn't--I have no absolute proof either way and neither do you. Doping is/was rampant in cycling and likely as not, the guy who finished second to LA in each TDF was doping. All you seem truly passionate about is tearing down a legend.

Curt
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:05am PT
THis is a joke. They all dope. They should simply go after the new winners the way they went after Lance until they accept bans and then go after the third place guys

Sure, they try to avoid being technically tested on the wrong side of the law and Lance beat all that, so they go after him anyway

Peace

Karl
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:06am PT
Example, Tiger Woods.

Yeah, Tiger's really hurting. Do you just hate all Americans?

A legend in your own minds. Not nor ever was in mine. Fact is, was not in many others either.

Hell, if he had a rocket super glued to his ass the last ten years and outright cheated and still won, you all would be in the same bs "Legend" sand box.

While you're on your pathological mission, why not strip Michael Phelps of his London medals for the Louis Vuitton ads?

Curt
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:07am PT
BFD if Lance doped...I think his other accomplishments , surviving cancer and living the grueling lifestyle of a pro rider far out shine any accusations the peanut gallery can throw at him...And do i have to mention the exposure Armstrong gave to the American cycling industry...? RJ
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:08am PT
He's every bit the hero that Barry Bonds is...oh and Michael Vick...Pete Rose...
this just in

climber
north fork
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:10am PT
Funny, how things change. The poster boy of cycling, being hunted by those who promoted him, because he was great for the sport and ratings. Same bullshit with baseball, when Sosa and McGuire were battling for the single season home run record. MLB pumped it up for ratings, then crucified them when doping became a problem. Like they didn't support the ratings and money it brought and played dumb in knowing it was happening. All the same sh#t to make money and guess what they're using Armstrong to get headlines again. "don't hate the player, hate the game" actually don't hate any of it, it's just a game and who gives a sh#t.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:15am PT
By the agreed upon standards in place, he did not dope, PERIOD. A+B samples, positive...they didn't have them, thus no evidence. Hearsay from the pelton is not a positive sample. Some wankers with a hard on for LA, also not a positive sample.

My intial thoughts were:

1. Who the F$%^k is the USADA, and
2. On what planet are they living if they think they have some kind of authority over who does or does not hold the TDF titles.

These clowns are so far out to lunch they're having a picnic on Mars. I wouldn't bother with them either if I were him. "You're stripping my titles? Bwhahaha, you don't have the authority dipshits. You're giving me a life ban? I'm retired dipshits. Go f*#k yourselves"

Good for LA. At some point you have to say "enough is enough".

crunch

Social climber
CO
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:16am PT
No one's immune. I heard they were investigating Donini next....
MisterE

Social climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:17am PT
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:18am PT
You're giving me a life ban? I'm retired dipshits. Go f*#k yourselves"

LOL

I thought the same thing.

Hows that work anyways?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:20am PT
Chief...What Tour did Jack Shite ride in...? RJ
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:22am PT
I heard Donini was the Tiger Woods of camp four...?
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:22am PT
Chief has a good argument so we'll just have to see how it plays out.

This will be vedy interesting .......
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:25am PT
Meanwhile the artic melts...
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:25am PT
No one's immune. I heard they were investigating Donini next....

Geez. I thought that one would stay buried. But since you bring it up, what I heard is that Donini accidentally combined the doses for all four guys on that Latok trip into his own syringe. It gave him super powers, but once the investigation gets rolling they'll definitely strip him of all his first ascents.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:28am PT
Chief, I think it's pretty likely Armstrong doped.

But pretty much everyone else did too. If you think Kloden is in the clear, you haven't been paying too close attention:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/german-nada-looking-to-investigate-kloden-sinkewitz-and-kessler-for-blood-doping
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:29am PT
Chief has a good argument so we'll just have to see how it plays out.

This will be vedy interesting .......

If The Chief were less selective in his outrage, he might have something. This will be interesting, though.

Curt
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:33am PT
The UCI owes the USADA nothing. As a matter of fact, they may resent this. Let's wait and see. Looks like a chess game. May not save him though.

Pretty lame to bring it so far after the fact. Someone has a big ol' hairy hard on to take Lance down.

Good reason for pictures of Sheryl. Thanks E ;-)
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:34am PT
By the time they get done DQing riders there will be no records in the tour.
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:35am PT
Pretty lame to bring it so far after the fact. Someone has a big ol' hairy hard on to take Lance down.

The Chief runs USADA? I guess everything makes perfect sense now.

Curt
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:39am PT
OH NO! He f*#ked up the Ride Around France game!

Hurry, let's get Congress involved!!!!









F*#king Americans. Want the biggest heroes, with the biggest muscles and the best times. So focused on being #1 that we forget sometimes that to be #1 means you have be a very, very smart cheater.




Cycling is on the extreme low-technical end. I am not in any way, shape, or form a voice in the cycling world but here's whats up.

The less technical prowess needed, the more of an effect supplimentation is going to have.

cycling is so simplistic that it is one of the most even playing fields. This isn't MMA where some guys are wrestlers, some guys strike, some guys do both. This isn't climbing where some guys boulder, some like to rope up.

Sh#t, this isn't even Alpinism, where the weather and conditions can make litmus tests impossible.

This is like Nordic skiing, a game of V02 Max. It is performing 'almost' in a vacuum. Yes, there is skill involved - I used to be a competitive runner (kind of still am, but I compete terribly. I know all about competing in very straightforward, very boring sports.)



Long story short, Congress met more for the Steroid scandal in baseball than the Iraq or Afghanistan war.






We love underdogs. We love old dogs. We love happy stories. That's why Lance made us all feel like we got kicked in the dick.


Americans don't own his triumphs, no more than we own his defeats. He was a dude, who f*#ked up. The fact that people feel so shitty to him is absolutely, stunningly mind boggling.


Educate yourselves on PED's, on TRT, on blood doping. Then train at a world class level. Then have the entire country behind you, expecting a win; anything else is failure. Have some empathy.







When I was 12 I beat the f*#k out of a small jewish kid in junior high. He wasn't cool, was super tiny, and was kind of an as#@&%e. One day I snapped, and gave it to him. I don't remember his name, or a lot about it, but it was the shittiest, lowest I've felt in my life, and it stays with me to this day. I'm going to bet that my f*#k up hurt the world a lot less than a road cyclist trying to use a banned substance.


Am I disappointed? Sure. I wanted it to be real, too, because that pull of Patriotism and familiarity is pretty strong. I wish he made better decisions, but for his own good. To be honest, the only reason almost any of us are rooting for him is because his parents decided to sh#t him out in Texas instead of Tehran.




If after reading my rant, if you haven't found peace and solice (not likely, sh#t I don't even got that) I have one last thought. How much have YOU raised to cure cancer? I hope it's a lot. I haven't done sh#t.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:40am PT
There are millions of dollars in endorsements and prize money at stake here


Sh#t, I wonder why he cheated... LOL
gonzo chemist

climber
Fort Collins, CO
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:41am PT
I think they should take away the Rolling Stones' gold (and platinum) albums. Those guys were doped out of their minds!

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:44am PT
And we are surprised?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:46am PT
Bill Koch once said that the fastest athletes would still be the fastest even if they were not on PEDs...
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:47am PT
Nope. I just read the facts....

Oh please. I live in Arizona and am quite familiar with political persecution by kangaroo courts.

Curt
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:48am PT
I hope you know Chief, I mean no disrespect - some here seem content to perform ad-hominem, but you have a very valid points. I just can't get worked up about it anymore.

edit - I have no idea who that photo is, but I don't have TV and only use the internet for slandering people online and porn : /
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:48am PT
Chief...Is that one of your russian friends...?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:50am PT
Actually I think its the rat that trained the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Master Splinter?

Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:55am PT
who gets all those El Cap FA's?
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:57am PT
According to the article , only the UCI has the power to ban Lance , not USADA....Wha , wha , wha , wha...!

Correct, and UCI asked USADA to turn the investigation over to them. USADA refused. To me that speaks volumes. I hope UCI returns the favor and tells USADA to pound sand.

Curt
Captain...or Skully

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:59am PT
Road bikes. Who cares?
Yawn.
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:05am PT
Actually Lance wanted to do this triathlon recently and got kicked out by these guys who are after him.

So technically he's really not fully retired ..... :-)
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:09am PT
You're giving me a life ban? I'm retired dipshits. Go f*#k yourselves"

LOL

I thought the same thing.

Hows that work anyways?

Werner got to it just before me, Lance was going to do Ironman Hawaii, it was going to be a big deal.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:16am PT
"John Wayne never wore Lycra"
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:17am PT
^^^really^^^^

No big deal to me

I meant from a media standpoint. Even LA doing it drugged to the hilt couldn't get me to watch the horrible coverage of the Ironman.
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:17am PT
Wait a minute.

Now why you hating Susie????

:-)
Rankin

Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:20am PT
How can anyone be surprised? Most other winning Tour riders over the past 15+ years have been popped for doping at some point. Also, the main risk for men who take steroids is, hello, testicular cancer.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:26am PT
The USADA's arrogance in believing that they can strip Lance of his titles even though they have no jurisdiction over that issue speaks volumes to me. Few things are scarier than an enforcement agency that has no understanding or concern about the limits of its power.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:35am PT
France surrendered.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:45am PT
France was also right next to Germany. Isolation for the win!

U S A! U S A!


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:02am PT
Sport is whatever people create. Once it gets big enough, armchair sportsmen/politicians can get involved and make money from advertising and make rules and boss people around. I can't imagine if they applied this to rock climbing, doing drug tests on everyone before they got on El Cap, timing them, allowing them only certain cams or nuts with weight restrictions on gear, putting advertising and cameras all over the wall with inflatable finish lines at the top, etc. Looks clownish when you put it all into our context.

I respect Lance for saying 'screw you, I'm going to ride my bike'. I would say the same thing to them if they tried to get involved in climbing. Most climbers would, as soon as the drug tests started!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:27am PT
I take this as a confession, although he is still in denial. Seeing the Tour this year made me think that they are finally starting to get somewhere with the anti-dope work within cycling.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:33am PT
massive doping conspiracy

Is Licky doing the book?

Bicycle riding should be banned from the world of dope. It's giving entrepreneurial job creators a bad name.








zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:05am PT
Breaking news:


Ali accepts lifetime ban from boxing for using the rope-a-dope.

Sonny Liston revives himself from the grave for another title run, is scheduled to meet Lance Armstrong in cage fight.



Damn this looks high

Trad climber
Temecula, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:31am PT
Here's why doping matters.

A child grows up on a bicycle and develops a great love for cycling, dreaming of making it to the professional ranks, winning big races, like the Tour de France. If doping is rampant--if everyone does it--then that child ultimately has to make a decision: either dope or give up on the dream that has consumed his or her life.

DOPE or GIVE UP YOUR DREAM.

That's a decision no person should have to make and no parent should have to imagine for his child.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:18am PT
What bothers me as much as the actual doping (which, almost certainly he did) is the lying to everybody about it. I can't imagine what it must be like to lie to everybody, all of the time and to then lash out against the knowing accusers and call THEM liars. He (and the rest of them who have cheated) must have an unreal ability to compartmentalize.
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:36am PT
The Chief... seek help. You have a lot of hate for something that probably doesn't affect you in any real way.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:29am PT
Who is Lance Armstrong?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:30am PT
You know Jim, that was always the argument against baseball.


I'm 5'7" on a good day. My dad was on the US Men's national Volleyball team. My favorite athlete was Michael Jordan. From age 2 to 15 I loved nothing more than Basketball, and to an extent volleyball.


Then I didn't grow. High school basketball coach said I was too short, only men's rec league for volleyball around was a complete joke. I wasn't BAD at these sports, I mean heck, I trained maybe 3 hours a day on my home court.

My dream got crushed because I was a short f*#k. Yeah, some guys can be short too and play those sports (my dad is 6'5", and I was a huge kid, so I figured I would be tall, too). But really... nope. You won't find many avenues for success.






Build your children to love and honor themselves. Idols are just people, Michael Jordan is a huge jerkoff to media and fans. Instill a belief system and values not based on a multi-millionaire. Sure, kids are going to gravitate towards 'heroes,' but the world is a sick place and the emperor has no clothes. Cycling is broken, and I agree, should be fixed. It absolutely should NOT be something that you can't compete with unless you make those decisions.

But that's cycling's problem. Maybe at the highest level there really IS no way to compete at the world class level with out some kind of foul play? Better break it to Junior early, rather than later...
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:43am PT
probably worth mention on this thread, one of george carlin's last routines was something called "it can kill you".

he began by introducing himself as an old f*#k, and went on to make an important distinction between an old f*#k and an old fart.

later, quite worked up, he declared,

"f*#k lance armstrong! f*#k him and his steroids! and while we're at it, f*#k tiger woods!"

the applause was thunderous.
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:03am PT
LOL !!!!

If Lance didn't dope, hes the greatest cyclist EVER, because he beat all the others that doped like hell.

If Lance doped, hes still the greatest cyclist EVER, because everyone doped and he still beat them...
steve shea

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:04am PT
I guess Lance may have doped. So what. The doping and cycling success, to me are irrelevant. To have two feet in the grave, survive and compete at his level was an inspiration for me. I got cancer and obviously see this through that prism. LA helped me deal with it. Chief has been on a similar rant before. Pretty entertaining really. Like the Swiftboaters, current Teabagger Seals, and racist scientifically ignorant bible thumpers, where do you get the hate? You look so life like.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:07am PT
not having read through this thread, have we discussed top rockclimbers who dope? magic mushrooms? top climbers who are dopes?
Some Random Guy

Trad climber
San Francisco
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:11am PT
those panzy ass frenchies are just scared of a one balled wonder putting them all to shame on their own turf.
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:18am PT
ONCE again.....couldn't agree more with Werner. Over 500 test SINCE 2000, ALL negative. Either the testing process is worthless.....500 tests,0 positives, or Armstrong is legit.
Would be like you getting convicted of murder, with NO proof other than from other convicted murderers who said you did it.
The testing NEEDS to get it's act together, one way or another.
Peace
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:21am PT
Well as far as F*cKing people, given a choice I'd take Tiger's former wife (only after my current one, though).

Tony raises some interesting points, No?

What about surfers who ride the Pipleline or the Wedge on acid?

BTW, is LSD banned in cycling?


Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:36am PT
omg 130 posts...

Back in the day I bought LIVESTRONG yellow bracelet. I want my 1$ back!

500 tests,0 positives, or Armstrong is legit.

Or he had used a substance that he was not tested for. They know when they will be tested, and how much time it takes for substance to leave the body. Guys like this do not take roids from Mexico, they take real custom made sh#t legit docs work on.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:38am PT
In another note, Sparks writes, "Among the Court's concerns is the fact that USADA has targeted Armstrong for prosecution many years after his alleged doping violations occurred, and intends to consolidate his case with those of several other alleged offenders, including - incredibly - several over whom USA Cycling and USOC apparently have no authority whatsoever. Further, if Armstrong's allegations are true, and USADA is promising lesser sanctions against other allegedly offending riders in exchange for their testimony against Armstrong, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that USADA is motivated more by politics and a desire for media attention than faithful adherence to its obligations to USOC."




And this is too good to pass up:

Most here that adore and defend LA are in the 99% group that totally disdains and hate Wall Street.
    The Chief
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
I was thinking? Oh yeah, my brain did it? :-)

Armstrong is HUGE, he's a monster, bigger than anything around.

Is this really gonna happen?

Or I bet somebody is gonna put a stop to it?

Obama??????
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
Long live Lance! he is the best no matter what.

John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
You'd have to see the quality and the quantity of the females following him on the TdF to fully appreciate the magic of the LA Brand. I'm Jelly.

@ The Chief - Why all the rage here? On a climbing forum? Did you take it to a forum where you'll get a real reaction? Can't see it. Put it at the thread below. Should be awesome. Like your Battleship Wisconsin Photo.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4125568;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Personally, I dunno where the Frick they get off doing this so much later. Like the powers that be suddenly decide Al Gore really did win in 2000. You'd think there would be some sort of limit.

Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:32pm PT
They know when they will be tested

actually they don't always know. If they are leading a race or won a stage/race then they know. There are some pretty funny stories about guys sitting in resturants (or just in public) and having to get tested.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:34pm PT
His life was becoming ALL about doping instead of about cancer, charity, etc. If he did it or not, it sucks that others keep on this stuff constantly until someone is defeated emotionally and has given years of their life doing nothing but defending themselves. Until I have been in a similar position, I do not know if I would fight to the death or just want to move on.

But I guess The Chief has been there and fought to the bitter end. How else would he know that LA is guilty.

Guilty until proven innocent is becoming the norm in our society. Too bad for those guys (LA or not) who are innocent and get reamed (literally?).

Dave
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
Tempest in a teapot.

Athletic excellence is about human performance not body chemistry.




What gets me is DQing people for testing positive for weed.
Hell, if they still win they should get their medal adorned with little bud clusters!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
Weed must be a performance enhancing substance.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
The butt hurt guys are Frankly Andreau and Johnathan Vaughters who thought they had the ability to win those races if everyone was clean. Those two dip shits couldnt figure out they were the only clean guys and everyone else was doping.

Vaughters admitted to doping.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
Just so everyone is clear... blood doping is nothing like steroids. 'dope' just happens to be what people from the 50's called anything schedule 1.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:22pm PT
So it's different from the medical dope that's an important part of the bicycle community around here.

( at least it's important among the Mountain Bike community )
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:40pm PT
From the AP:

The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency erased 14 years of Lance Armstrong's career Friday — including his record seven Tour de France titles — and banned him for life from the sport that made him a hero to millions of cancer survivors after concluding he used banned substances.

USADA said it expected cycling's governing body to take similar action, but the International Cycling Union was measured in its response, saying it first wanted a full explanation on why Armstrong should relinquish titles he won from 1999 through 2005.

At least the ICU doesn't appear to be the same breed of hysterical witch hunters.

Curt
Gorgeous George

Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
The lesson here? I'M A DOPE FOR NOT DOPING!

Hey, can anyone do LA a favor and introduce him to Greg Mortenson? Now that would make a dynamic duo. Think of the potential!
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
^^^^
So did Frankie.

http://www.bikingbis.com/2006/09/12/former-cyclist-and-oln-commentator-frankie-andreu-admits-to-doping/

Some of my friends joke that they use performance "dehancing" substances!


ps. and they know "dehancing" isn't a word.


edit. Hey, where did that "Vaughters admitted" comment go?
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
edit. Hey, where did that "Vaughters admitted" comment go?

still there.
Fletcher

Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:01pm PT
A more nuanced perspective (if anyone is interested in nuance anymore! Ha ha!):

http://redkiteprayer.com/2012/08/endgame/

Eric
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
More then anything, I am concerned about the level of power that this agency has, or acts like it has. Regardless of my personal beliefs, the fact is that not one - not ONE - piece of evidence has been released to back their claims. I'm not from the show me state, but you're going to have to show me.
I have plenty of faith in modern science, so if you can show me he cheated, then I will accept it, realize that LA is a dirty doper....and then go on with my life not really giving a sh#t. But until then, I BELIEVE THAT A MAN IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.
Yes, I enjoyed watching him beat the piss out of everyone year after year, but in the big scheme of things, who f*#king cares? A result either way isn't going to change your life or mine. It's just another "hot button issue" for people to fight over.
What bothers me is that the USADA is stripping people of titles without legal right to do so. the IOC has repeatedly told the USADA that they do not have the authority to strip any cyclists titles. However, this organization is so bloated with taxpayer dollars that it just stomps over and bullies anyone they can to get them to go along with their actions.
Basically, the USADA is stripping titles of a race that happens in another country. They charge people and then do not allow that charge to be contended in court. Once they make a decision, it's final, and you have NO right of recourse or appeal. Yes, they allow you to have "arbitration" - to them, that means "We are going to let you sit here while we tell you that you're screwed, and make more money off the taxpayers while you pay more to your lawyers. Then we will let you go home."
At the end of the day, they simply do not have the right to strip Lance's titles. That right resides with the IOC.
What Lance did here was a very smart move on his part. I'd be tired of it too, on the heels of a 2 year federal investigation that didn't find jack sh#t. The whole reason this went to the USADA was because of the fact that they cannot be overruled.
What he has done here, is forced the IOC to back up their claim that the USADA has no jurisdiction over the riders. The IOC has the resources and the power to negate the USADA's actions and restore Lance's titles. The IOC is guaranteed to demand that the positive tests and other evidence be turned over to them, prior to allowing the ban to be instated permanently. Let these two fight it out in the international courts, while Lance gets back to running the cancer organization that is his focus and raising his kids.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:23pm PT
...He has tested positive- his samples now test positive for EPO.
And they will test positive for all the other stuff also - he was infusing plasma and involved in some very complex masking tricks.

Source please..?

Thanks for the coherent comments from Vegasclimber.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:28pm PT
If the USADA had any bloodwork which proved doping this would have been an open and shut case concluded years ago. Instead it's clear they have no bloodwork evidence of any kind and only have testimony that he doped. From my perspective it's basically irrelevant whether he did or didn't; what is relevant is that an anti-doping agency built on a science and regiem of relentless analytical bloodworkups is able to provide condemning bloodwork or they can't - but conclusive bloodwork is the only basis by which such an agency should be able to make accusations actionable, not hearsay.
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
Prosecutorial overreach and abuse is the real threat here. Count USADA as just another over zealous agency among the out of control, alphabet soup myriad levels of government and bureaucracy that Americans are subjected to.
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
This doesn't change anything. Everyone has their breaking point, he has finally reached his. It is important to note he has been fighting this battle for over 10 years. That has got to take a toll on you, especially when they have yet to provide physical evidence, and once again it comes down to testimony of people who literally have had it out for him for years by their own admission. His chances of getting a fair hearing went out the window a long time ago. In addition, USADAs clearly stalking / unhealthy obsession is a great example of an obvious personal vendetta that had nothing to do with the actual facts, but became a personal crusade by those who wanted to be Elliot Ness.

I am not saying he is clean or dirty, I am saying the guy is a champion of the like we can only wish to see again. What he has done for the sport of cycling and what he has done for cancer victims is so far beyond anyone else's contribution, that we all owe him thanks, not some bull$hit righteous condemnation.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
+100 for Vegasclimber's comment. I stand with you VC.

The idea that "everyone dopes" makes banning one person all the more ridiculous. If they ALL dope, then why ban one guy?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
Okay, I've finally found the perfect summary of the whole business. It's from a piece by Michael Rosenberg in Sports Illustrated.

Even if you believe his accusers, as I do, you must admit: The accusers make you want to wash your hands. This was a case between a likely drug cheat and obsessive, unlikeable prosecutors, fueled by other drug cheats as witnesses. If this were divorce court and I were a judge, I'd give all the money to the dog.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
a legal question?

here are the charges the USADA is charging him with (from cyclingnews)

//The anti-doping rule violations for which Mr. Armstrong is being sanctioned are:

(1) Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.

(2) Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices), testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.

(3) Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and corticosteroids.

(4) Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone, and cortisone.

(5) Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule violations.

Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed//


Some of them are criminal offenses. Now the Federal Govt. couldn't press charges against him for lack of evidence. So does the USADA only have to a "preponderance of the evidence"? Or can they just rule how they wish with no legal recourse for the accused (beyond arbitration)? Is it similar to civil vs criminal case?
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
As someone who has quite a bit of personal experience with prosecutorial overreach, and the personal cost of fighting it, this case saddens me greatly. Dougal Haston wrote in Mountain magazine about 40 years ago that whenever great men appear, there will always be little men to belittle them. This looks to me rather like that.

I wish Armstrong had continued the fight, even though the deck was stacked against him, but doing so wears a person down, and it is virtually impossible to fully recover a reputation after an accusation, even a false one. The USADA, like the NCAA, has virtually none of the fundamental checks on their power that we would consider "due process" under the Fifth Amendment. They have none of the limits of legal rules of evidence, and there is no presumption of innocence. Once they accuse someone, the accused must prove they didn't dope. How can anyone do that? The mere accusation, coupled with winning, will always create doubt.

While I accept the possibility that he was, in fact, doping in some way, shape or form, this matter still smells of jealousy and pettiness, not justice.

John
Binks

climber
Uranus
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
I think the charges are B.S. against LA whether he doped or not. It was 7 years ago and his victories should stand.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
However, this organization is so bloated with taxpayer dollars that it just stomps over and bullies anyone they can to get them to go along with their actions.

Pretty typical of the government these days. No limit to the spending. Or a time limit. A weak President at the top.

I've seen Lances Pool Times, His run results, he's about the greatest athlete of our times. The self-righteous, seek to justify their miserable existence by trashing true greatness. They'll interpret his abandonment of his defense as an admission of guilt. F*#k all of them.

I can't wait to see him at Kona.

Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:58pm PT

Tom Head, Texas Judge: Obama Reelection Could Lead To 'Civil War and the Incarceration of Lance Armstrong,' I'm Ready To 'Take Up Arms'
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
Melki Cabrera is the maggot I am pissed at! Although the Giants are doing well now, the team would benefit from his presence.
Are they gonna take the All Star game away from NL now?
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:22pm PT
Their big testimony is they "overheard" it? What a joke.
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:40pm PT
I find it interesting that no one was upset when Contador was stripped of his TdF title from two years ago.
Is it because lance is an 'merican?
Were you guys upset when Ivan Basso was banned for two years? I'd say not.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
Thinks that's a joke Roughster?

Don't you have a variety of friends and their relatives around when you are talking to your doctor?

;)
jstan

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
Frankly this is going to cause people to be less interested next year in the TDF. That's the real bottom line.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:47pm PT
Fools in these Panties-in-a-bunch agencies are only proving that they can find a case against whomever they point the light at, thus knocking down all the heroes and leaving them with no sport that anybody is going to want to watch, attend or buy swag about.

Good luck with that. Horse is out of the barn. Better to have "Don't ask, don't tell" where you win by keeping up with beatings tests and using stuff that's not illegal yet. Otherwise what can you do, give em lie detector tests once a year?

better to go rockclimbing and test drugs than go cycling and get drug tested

Peace

Karl
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Frankly this is going to cause people to be less interested next year in the TDF

disagree. TdF will always be popular in Europe
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:51pm PT
Looks like he told a private concern, with an axe to grind, and no legal jurisdiction or process to go piss off.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
find it interesting that no one was upset when Contador was stripped of his TdF title from two years ago.
Is it because lance is an 'merican?
Were you guys upset when Ivan Basso was banned for two years? I'd say not.

Was the USADA involved? Was there physical evidence?

Sure Americans care more about American cyclists than those from other countries. So what?

Armstrong is no longer contesting the USADA. Why should he, if he's no longer competing at the TDF level?. Nothing prevents the USADA from releasing enough of its evidence to convince the skeptics. While sanctimonious sportswriters will doubtless be orgasmic at the prospect of taking down another hero, the comments on this thread show that many of us don't accept the "he's guilty because we said so" explanation on its own.

I also find it interesting that some say that not all riders at the highest level are doing this. Prove it! That's what the USADA is making everyone they accuse do.

John
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
Recently, I have been in email conversations with a Taco Stander about climbing, people and such. But not about Armstrong or Landis or anybody else in the cycling world. (I introduced a former Boy Scout companion, Greg Mount, to bicycle racing, and he was one of the first Americans to hit the European circuit).

I told this fellow Supertopian that I entered my first race (San Francisco Bay Area High School Circuit) in 1972, a Hill Climb in El Cerrito. I just wanted the ten bucks reward money to buy a lid (bag of grass to the uninitiated).

I literally came in inches behind numbers one, two and three, but I still got a Yellow Ribbon for fourth place (I think I still have it somewhere in a box). The other three ahead of me had all the biz, cleats, bicycle shorts etc. I had tennies and cut-off jeans. I was on my late brother's Pogligahi (which is still in the family), we also had a Masi and Bianchi, all Campy gear.

So our fellow Taco Stander jokes with me in an email that I was a pro on drugs. Hah hah, except I did not win the $10. I entered a couple of more races, but climbing was my first love. Football (soccer my second). I tried turning pro in Europe when I was 26, but a) "Americans don't play football", and b) 26!

Most footie pros start at 14 or so as apprentices in Europe. But I had the dream (semi-pro teams: Harrow Borough in England, San Francisco Celtic, trial with Galway United and reserves on the Golden Gate Gales, the old ASL American Soccer League, and of course, a bench warmer at Cal State Hayward/East Bay... I was 27 & 28, the other lads called me Uncle Pat, but I was still the third fastest and one of the best passers at Cal State).

I do not know if Lance Armstrong doped, and I do not really care. If he cheated other "would be" Tour winners, who probably cheated as well, even taking drugs so they would not have to stop and pee, that is his conscience he has to live with.

Maybe I should find that Yellow Ribbon from my first race and burn it, except, I was never high the few times I raced.

(Yeah, I climbed on acid, mushrooms and mescaline back in the day, not smart, but...).

If Armstrong cheated with various enhancers, he has to live with that, I still admire him for his cancer foundation.

Which poster said it earlier, "A mountain out of a molehill".
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
Frankly this is going to cause people to be less interested next year in the TDF. That's the real bottom line.

Not I.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:07pm PT
So, who'd Armstrong cheat out of a legitimate drug-free TDF win?

Ulrich?

Pantani?

John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:17pm PT

[Click to View YouTube Video]
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
Frankly this is going to cause people to be less interested next year in the TDF. That's the real bottom line.

Particularly if the ICU agrees and strips Armstrong of his titles. That will basically invalidate the TDF and perhaps even the entire sport.

Curt
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
...many of us don't accept the "he's guilty because we said so" explanation on its own.

I also find it interesting that some say that not all riders at the highest level are doing this. Prove it! That's what the USADA is making everyone they accuse do.

That's the bugaboo for me. I, too, say 'prove it'. Confessed liars and cheats testifying doesn't do the trick for me. And even unabashed testimony from George Hincapie doesn't flip the switch. Let's see some real test results. Otherwise this is a travesty and certainly not worth the US tax dollars that funded this expedition to nowhere.
Karen

Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
Dope or no dope, I won't miss the tdf for anything!


So guys, you think any doping will go on during the upcoming Vuelta?
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:36pm PT
People, regardless of whatever Armstrong used illicit substances, it is a huge blot on the sport, a sport that has become synonymous with drug taking, blood transfusion, and as I mentioned even drugs to stop your urinary tract from wanting to get off the bike, etc.

None of these people - the riders, teams, drug testers and what not - IMO, have not done themselves any proud. How to clean it up? When there is so much money, prestige and accolades at stake, the cheaters will find a way.

Sad, isn't it, and it is not only in cycling.

EDIT, for example, business. I know of one Irish billionaire, (that lied to me personally) that used a 'brown envelope' to gain his fortune. When there is money and fame to gain, a lot of people are unscrupulous. Sport, business, whatever, they are out there. Bad parental guidance? I don't know, I have enough on my plate, to really worry about these people (talk about them on a forum, yes, but really worry, no).
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
Curt, you are looking at it from an american perspective. as I said earlier, TdF will always be popular in Europe. Armstrong wasn't the most popular guy while racing on the continent.
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:49pm PT
The fact that the TdF will still be popular in the US IMO is due to Lance.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:54pm PT
You guys don't get it!

This POS is no hero.

He cheated your son or your brother!

Do you want your child, who perhaps falls in love with the TDF, while sitting on your lap to have to stack 10 different drugs and dope his blood 5 different ways to be able to enjoy competition?
Who gives a f*#k if they have to go back all the way to a Po-dunk fun ride in shitsville America to find a Champion.

This can not be about who has the most money, who is willing to lie the most, and who is the best cheater? Can it?

What the hell are you guys teaching your kids?
No wonder this world is so f*#ked...

Well, there was plenty of doping in bike racing before Lance, and there has been at least some post-Lance. So it is not as if he is somehow solely responsible for the whole mess. And the pros I have talked to recently sdo think things are cleaner now than they were. I'd rather all the effort that is being put into this was instead put into continuing to improve the current situation rather then re-hashing this business.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
- His use of doctors later banned.
 Some men of high credibility ready to tell what really happened
 His old blood samples being restested today when the ability to discover substances in the blood is much higher
 Armstrong accepting the ban

It's all out in the open now. You have to be blinded by ideology or ignorant lojality to not get the picture. He cheated. Many have been caught the last few years and it's necessary to catch the cheaters if you want to get a cleaner sport.

Armstrong was popular for a long time in Europe. He still is among many Europeans, a lot of Norwegians among them.

Edited: Jebus - are you being an angry whining cry baby now?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
His old blood samples being restested today when the ability to discover substances in the blood is much higher
Armstrong accepting the ban

It's all out in the open now. You have to be blinded by ideology or ignorant lojality to not get the picture. He cheated. Many have been caught the last few years and it's necessary to catch the cheaters if you want to get a cleaner sport.

They better retest the sample of whomever they are retroactively awarding those TDF titles too until they find somebody beyond suspicion. Fair is fair.

Can you imagine authorities and media of all sorts could look back at the past with x-ray perfect vision. I guarantee every president we've ever had would be retroactively impeached

Peace

karl
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:40pm PT
The USADA bans Armstrong for life and strips him of his championship rides (which they don't have the authority to do).

Since this is a very bold and harsh punishment, shouldn't they publish all the evidence which they have accumulated? They were not shy about publishing their illegitimate punishment.

Also, when are we gonna see Willard Romney's income tax returns?

Does Armstrong have hidden assets in Swiss bank accounts? Has he been seen in the Caymans?

PTFU or STFU.

StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
Viva le Tour!

They got what they wanted. Lance caved and they use that as their evidence without having to put the rest out to public scutiny. As I said up front, doing all this after the fact is lame. They damn well better go back and test every American Cyclist now and strip everyone that fails a retroactive drug test or has someone rat them out for personal gain.

Oh that's right, they can't really strip non-US titles. The UCI does that. Doh!

I don't condone PED's, but this is being handled really poorly all the way around. Nobody is going to win when the dust settles.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:51pm PT
Riley

This time I think Dr. F is just redefining "by fair means" to fit his own feelings.

Edit: LA should in this case be judged and banned for his rulebreaking actions and not for the man he is. I hope he has the support of some close friends. He needs them now.
Dolomite

climber
Anchorage
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:54pm PT
Thanks Fletcher, for posting this:

http://redkiteprayer.com/2012/08/endgame/

Though there's not much evidence of anyone here reading it. The point Padraig makes in the article that I found most pertinent is that if you take LA out of the standings for the seven TdF wins, of the remaining 21 riders in the top three places, only ONE is not a proven (not by hearsay) doper.

It's a mess that stripping LA of the wins does NOT solve or even begin to remedy. These idiotic ruling bodies should be moving forward.
climbera5

Trad climber
Sacramento
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
Can you name the new 7 winners of the TDF? Who will care anyway. Do you think Andy Schleck wakes up every morning thinking "I won the 2011 TDF!" NOBODY will think that other than Andy's mom. Point is, you can't erase what LA has accomplished and I don't think the USADA can make him their new druggie poster boy. It won't stick. Maybe in France but not here.
all in jim

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
Most people want a hero who wins more races, hits more home runs, catches more touchdowns and wins more medals.

We buy the bikes, the hats and the baseballs (well maybe not you, specifically, but can you hear what I'm saying?) We watch the events. We are partly to blame for making our heros so big (literally and figuratively!)

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
I would feel better about Armstrong if he would come clean. Arrogantly and vehemently calling it a witch hunt AFTER he decides not to contest is beyond the pale. Everyone deserves his day in court but by refusing to contest LA avoids his. He obviously is aware of the preponderance of the evidence against him- a de facto admission of guilt if there ever was one.
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:08pm PT
It's all these so called scientist lab coats faults.

Those slide rule wankers made this sh!t!!!!

Throw em all in jail.

Heh heh heh ......
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:15pm PT
Dr F you are usually reasonable. Anyone who thinks an ego maniac like Armstrong who has financiial resources would not fight the charges IF he thought he had a chance of prevailing is not being reasonable.
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:19pm PT
^^^^ You should read the post directly above yours. Armstrong had absolutely no chance in a USADA arbitration.

Curt
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:28pm PT
The federal court couldn't find enough evidence of conspiracy to charge him, but the USADA could. Pffft.

He did it, but they missed the window. This smacks of revenge and grandstanding now. They should have let go and focused on the future.

Professional sports sucks the soul out of everything it touchs.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:44pm PT
I'd love to see the Chain of Custody forms for those samples the USADA is saying are "consistent with doping" (WTF ever that weasel words phrase is supposed to mean).

If I were a lawyer for LA, that would be where I would start. You could probably blow holes a mile wide in the COC by now, after 10 years of shipping those things around.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:50pm PT
You could probably blow holes a mile wide in the COC by now


heh.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
Seems there's a lot of discomfort in America over this. It happened so long ago.

Americans will see the lynching of Lance, against the backdrop of the Batman Movie Killer in AZ. Such a complicated trial for this guy and he was caught at the scene.

Lance, in contrast, gets hanged out of hand, 13 years later.
FTOR

Sport climber
CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:52pm PT
what gets me about all of this is the hypocrisy of them going after lance and turning a blind eye to the prevalence of doping in all the major money sports in this country. there's probably not a player in the nfl who hasn't doped. biking hardly registers in this country. who's even following the veulta right now?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:57pm PT
David Blanco Rodriguez won Stage 7 and leads the general classification ;-)
yosemite 5.9

climber
santa cruz
Aug 24, 2012 - 07:01pm PT
Someday, some way, when you do something that you believe is fair and honest and as a result, get excessively prosecuted in this country, you may feel you have something in common with Lance Armstrong.

Allegations are not facts. Claims of having evidence are not evidence.

A US agency's assertion of control over a French sporting event is an example of how excessive the prosecution of Lance Armstong has become.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
Anyone who thinks an ego maniac like Armstrong who has financiial resources would not fight the charges IF he thought he had a chance of prevailing is not being reasonable.

I've defended people falsely accused by a government or an organization with resources far beyond my clients' means -- and several of those clients were multi-millionaires. In addition, I was in a court with rules of evidence, due process rights, and the burden of proof on the other side. They often got worn down by the process -- particularly if the penalty wasn't that great.

Dealing with the USADA is almost the exact opposite. An accused athlete has about as much chance as a defendant before the Queen of Hearts. Off with his head, then let's have the trial.

I perfectly understand why anyone would refuse to legitimize a proceeding that appears stacked against him. I understand it even more when, as here, Armstrong already proved what he could do on the road, and no one accuses him of doing something any of his main rivals were not doing.

The USA, with all of its resources (and, believe me, the Justice Department has lots of them) couldn't find enough evidence for an indictment, which speaks volumes. Instead of engaging Armstrong in an arena where he can fight back, his detractors choose one where the accused has virtually no rights.

If anything, I think the onus is on the USADA to come forward with its evidence (as opposed to its accusations) to satisfy a substantial portion of the public that sees this as a witch hunt. Riley may be right; LA may deserve the greatest of contempt. Our problem is that the USADA hasn't shown us satisfactory proof of that, and we aren't willing just to take their word for it.

Besides, it appears that I not only may have ksolem on my side (as is often the case), but Curt, El Cap, and Dr. F. as well. We must be right!

John
LilaBiene

Trad climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
+1 Yosemite 5.9...Hello extraterratorial jurisdiction...stuff kids learn to stamp out in the sandbox.

Having witnessed first-hand how out-of-control some folks become when given even the smallest amount of power, specifically in the context of a corporate arbitration in which the arbitrators acted directly against the terms of the contract the parties had signed, and further, in direct opposition of the very clear applicable state law, I wouldn't trust the "witch hunter" as far as I could toss him. Do you think he would keep his job if he DIDN'T do everything possible to close the deal (moral or immoral or just plain depraved)?

I'm curious...
...How many people did he threaten/promise leniency/promise immunity to come up with his list of "witnesses"?
...What is his compensation structure? Requirements to keep his job?
...Is his position an "appointed" one?
...What did he do before taking on this glorious assignment that has kept him in the public spotlight for...years?

I believe Lance Armstrong is a good man, not a perfect man. Not one of us is perfect. But Lance Armstrong has done more in his short 40 years than many others of us, and I have a soft spot for people who do good things for others (and have, shall we say, an uncommonly enormous amount of excess energy?). He didn't have to start a charitable organization...he chose to.

Lance Armstrong is a father at the end of the day. Perhaps this is his way of setting an example for his children...nothing is worth putting loved ones through Hell just to prove a point. If Lance can look at himself in the mirror at the end of the day, and feel good about who he is as a person, then that's really the only thing that matters. The rest is between him and the Universe...not the rest of us fellow (imperfect) human beings.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
...How many people did he threaten/promise leniency/promise immunity to come up with his list of "witnesses"?

According to NPR's report on it today, over a dozen.

I'm not stating an opinion, just telling what I heard.
yosemite 5.9

climber
santa cruz
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
Eyewitness testimony is very unreliable and easily falsified. Watch the movie "My Cousin Vinny" as an example.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
Wow this is bogus.

Having been involved with Motorsports for 20 years I see this like this...

At a race you have this thing called TECH ..... every car goes through it before the racing and the lucky few who win, place, show or get picked at random... you get your stuff torn apart. You get your car returned in bits and pieces.

This is because folks in sports cheat, all the time.

To hold fair races the governing body must have fair and open tech. All the good ones do this.

Its important to get the cheaters and get them out.

When we hold races it is important to do the tech and declair a winner ASAP.

The day of the race is best, but sometimes it gets delayed because you need to send a fuel sample out for testing at the NHRA or USAC lab. Or one time we sent a motor back to Austria for a teardown inspection.

This never takes more than 2 weeks at most.

I find it almost impossable to believe that it has taken them 13 years to test and retest samples.... I guess its one of those things that went like this.... "Look, go back and test those samples again.... dont come back till you get the right results"

Well I figure if they couldn't catch him on the days of the races .... and for seven more years, then the test they use is flawed.... they are weak in the testing they do and they didn't do a very professional job of testing. Pretty bogus.

So no matter what they say.... LA won 7 TDF, period, end of story.

So next year when they run the thing I wont care at all about who wins or loses because the folks who run the event don't know squat about how to controll their own event.

WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:00pm PT
JEleazarian

Thanks for your post, makes sense if that's the case.

I personally hope Lance doesn't lose his TDF titles.

That would suck tremendously and be an outrage in my opinion ......

Some Random Guy

Trad climber
San Franphsyco
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
whatever, this is all bullsh#t

let 'em do steroids or whatever performance enhancing anything that they want. i would love to see the olympics in the format. allow them to do as much of whatever they wanted to to perform better. now that would be interesting and very entertaining.
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
Lance had two lieutenants(Tyler Hamilton, and Floyd Landis) admit to doping.
If Lance knew about it(and undoubtedly he did)why didn't he stop it? Seems that he would want to just to avoid association.

Note: I've followed pro racing for almost twenty five years, have done road bike teetees, and raced mountain bikes.
I was a Lance fan in the beginning, but he got too cocky, and arrogant.
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
The agency (USADA) also said it had blood tests from 2009 and 2010 that were "fully consistent" with blood doping."

I'm really curious about that. If that is the only actual blood test related evidence they have and Armstrong had over 500 to 600 "clean" test results during his TDF years, then attempting to yank his TDF titles based on that is complete BS.

Curt
crunch

Social climber
CO
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:44pm PT
whatever, this is all bullsh#t

let 'em do steroids or whatever performance enhancing anything that they want. i would love to see the olympics in the format. allow them to do as much of whatever they wanted to to perform better. now that would be interesting and very entertaining.

Sadly, not really. Famously, the East German Olympics team doped heavily during the 70s and 80s. Long term health effects on athletes were terrible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_East_Germany

And here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/nov/01/athletics.gdnsport3

It's ben a whack-a-mole game ever since. And yes, curiously enough, testiculat cancer is one of the health problems.....
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:05pm PT
what gets me about all of this is the hypocrisy of them going after lance and turning a blind eye to the prevalence of doping in all the major money sports in this country. there's probably not a player in the nfl who hasn't doped. biking hardly registers in this country. who's even following the veulta right now?

Amen! Why so much fuss over a mere cyclist . . . even with the exposure Lance has brought to the sport, it (cycling) remains insignificant in the U.S., save for a small percentage of individuals. The hypocrisy involved in this witch hunt is unbelievable . . . America worships the NFL and all the steroid enhanced players beating the sh#t out of one another. You know damn well those sanctioned users of performance enhancing drugs would never be subject to a crusade like the one to disgrace Mr. Armstrong.

America loves to hate . . . America is founded on deception.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:25pm PT
I'm guessing the OOSADA bureaucrats have much to gain financially and politically by crucifying Lance and busting his ball...I also think it is outrageous that they think it is within their juristriction to take his titles away besides being too long after the fact...This is another tax payer sponsored boondoggle...Who's next on the USADA hit list...? Lebron James...?
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:30pm PT
What's chicken-sheeit in all this is that Armstrong played by the rules of the game and he won.

The testers had carte blanche to test at any time and all times and, as far as has been published, never failed him on a test in the hundreds of attempts to flunk him.

This is a vendetta, which originated in France and has been picked up by the Uswhatjamcallits.

Let's see the comparative statistics on who among all the bicycle peddlers was tested and how often.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
The root of all this is the money and fame of this competition. The same incentives that make business cheat and pollute and government invade countries that are no threat.

People that bike for fun don't do this, and people who climb for fun don't dope either (you know what I mean)

This is what cutthroat competition with a lot at stake does. How you gonna change that without creating a worse police state in the sport than already exists?

The way things are set up now, and the way our society rolls, this is what we get. Wanna go after LA? Go after em all~! Total witch hunt!

What then

peace

Karl
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
I don't know if this has been posted up-thread but this is the best thinking I've seen on the doping debacle:

Here's the pull quote:

"I don’t know if Armstrong did the things he’s accused of doing, and neither do you. I don’t know if these witnesses are telling the truth, and neither do you. I do know two things: First, he passed all his tests. And second, if he had failed a drug test, and brought in 10 people to testify that they were with him every minute of every day leading up to the test and he never ingested anything, never injected anything, never doped his blood, would we be having this debate today? No, because he would have failed a drug test, and all the testimony in the world wouldn’t matter.

It can’t work both ways. Either a drug test is the standard, or it isn’t. "
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
^^^^ That's an excellent point.

Curt
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:01am PT
The big gotcha he has on his head is:

Trafficking, Administration to others

He doesn't even have to be found guilty ever of using any dope on himself.

But Trafficking, and administration to others qualifies as guilty.

It's a total bummer this whole thing.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:08am PT
Trafficking, Administration to others

It seems the judicial inquisition would have nailed him here if there was evidence.

Did anybody watch these races on TV, wasn't that Armstrong peddling his ass off there, or was it someone else?

Put every single rider (or at least the top ones) under the microscope as has been done with Armstrong.

Come back and publish the results.




mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Aug 25, 2012 - 01:53am PT
"They should simply go after the new winners the way they went after Lance until they accept bans....Peace."--Karl Baba

I tend to think this would make the severe stance of the "authority" seem less like a witch hunt.

It might take the blood sport out of it.

Lance has a lot going for him for the good; he will sail through this mess, and when the sound and the fury are slackened, and the apostrophes are added, what will it matter?

I'm certainly not claiming he was an angel; nor am I claiming he's undeserving of having his titles stripped, etc. At first glance, there are some similarities here to Pete Rose's punishment. But betting on baseball or other ball games by players is, I don't believe, as prevalent an infraction of rules as doping in cycling. There are other differences, surely, which I won't try to say anything about, because what does it matter?

It's sad. Unsullied heroes are hard to come by, it seems.

"Say it ain't so, Joe."

Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 25, 2012 - 03:44am PT
It's a good thing that old blood samples can be used and tested.

At one particular moment in time the dopers with highly qualified dope doctors are always ahead of the tests. But over time the tests catch up. This is the situation now. Even if you at present is on top of the dope ladder being able to get access to and pay the "best" dope doctors to give you substances that cannot at present be found because the tests are not yet developed, you are no longer sure, because there is a fair chance that in the future the tests will be available and the substances will be found in your old blood samples. The LA case is a good example. LA had access to the "best" dope doctors.

The dopers are now taking a chance - their cheating can be disclosed in the future even if they are ahead of the tests at present. This situation gives hope of a cleaner sport. I think only politicians in the pocket of corporations and other money-people (they have their hands deep into the structure of the sport) can block the chance of getting a cleaner sport.
Some Random Guy

Trad climber
San Franphsyco
Aug 25, 2012 - 04:10am PT
Sadly, not really. Famously, the East German Olympics team doped heavily during the 70s and 80s. Long term health effects on athletes were terrible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_East_Germany

And here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/nov/01/athletics.gdnsport3

It's ben a whack-a-mole game ever since. And yes, curiously enough, testiculat cancer is one of the health problems.....
that is part of the entertainment value.....seeing these idiots od themselves and destroy their bodies for what? they are all fools...
just think how outta control it would be if there were no regulation.....ha ha maybe i'm kinda sadistic for wanting to see that
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 25, 2012 - 04:19am PT
Gaming the system with cheats and lies or trying to stay technically legal while being illegal in spirit is the American way

We went to Iraq knowing they didn't have WMDs, Romney pays a small percentage of the taxes he owes by exploiting tax havens and loopholes, and if you're not enjoying drugs for fun then your expecting Jesus to get you off the hook for your sins by having suffered in your place.

This is more of the same. Get what you want by any advantage, legit or not, that you can finagle

Peace

Karl
One Nut

Social climber
Col De Galibier
Aug 25, 2012 - 10:53am PT
So Riley and Babba easy for you to sit back and bash away on a guy for passsing 500 doping tests.

Raised over 300 million for cancer research.

What the f*#k have you two done?


Stop bye the house we will have a few ultras I'll show you my testical in the jar and if you want we can go for a ride and talk about it.

Or you could go do something else other that post dribble of which you know nothing about really and volunteer a day at your local VA.

Peace

One Nut.






Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 25, 2012 - 10:59am PT
Just because they took his crown away does not mean he is not still King. Hail Lance!!
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 11:12am PT
What if he payed off testers and used other folks' blood and urine for tests?

Possible.

Alot of drugs come into the country via the payoff route. Should have been possible to determine (probably still is) whether or not it was Armstrong's stuff.

I'll ask again, why doesn't the USADA publish everything they have?

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 25, 2012 - 11:16am PT
So Riley and Babba easy for you to sit back and bash away on a guy for passsing 500 doping tests.

I don't know what you're talking about Bro. Have you read my many posts on this thread?

I think they ought to leave the guy alone personally. Just commenting on the total picture of this sport and our society where winning is everything and anything goes if you can get away with it.

My guess, the LA did his best to do whatever he could to enhance his performance while being careful to stay on the side of not running afoul of testing. I think he was basically forced to do so as that's what everyone was doing and you couldn't compete at the very top without some form of illegal or not illegal yet enhancement.

So I don't blame him but rather cite it as the way to sport rolls...period

It's like how politicians have to raise millions to run for office with the Lion's share coming from elite money and corporations and then they claim they aren't influenced by needing and getting millions from those interests. Yeah, right. But then you see how they vote and the favors they do for those interests and you know the truth.

I applaud LAs good works and don't blame him for doing his best to win while not getting caught. What else to do? (even if you pay the price with your health but hey, maybe they are finding ways to Juice without killing yourself in the process. Time will tell)

Peace

Karl
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 25, 2012 - 11:22am PT
For them to try to take away his lifetime wins is like saying Harding didn't get the 1st ascent of the Nose because he did not free it. Screw that. Keep on rocking Lance!!!
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 11:37am PT
Or conversely

he is a dope because he doped

implies alot of dopes in the world

rurprider

Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
Aug 25, 2012 - 11:38am PT
Chief...... Your jealousy of Lance Armstrong and his awesome success is showing. Lance Armstrong has been one of the most consistently tested athletes in history, with over 500 negative results. The US antidumping agency has NO concrete evidence, just the testimony of Lance's former teams, who have admitted to doping, agreeing to testify in exchange for leniency from prosecution (ie. Floyd Landis). Innocent until proven guilty. Let's see the evidence! The maliciousness of your thread is disgusting. SHAME ON YOU! Lance Armstrong is the greatest athlete to ever mount a bicycle, and a cancer survivor. Get on your bicycle and do some training yourself. Keep riding and running marathons, Lance!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Aug 25, 2012 - 11:42am PT
this OBAMA administration is going after certain people and Lance is one of em.

Nothing wrong with blood enhancement.

something wrong with a government going after their own superstars.


good job travis from Anti-doping cuzz u suck.


long live the super lance!

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:15pm PT
Now that USADA has boinked Lance i think they should get on with their laundry list and go after Mercxk , Kelley , Lemond and the entire pro peloton....After all , money is no object to USADA especially when the US tax payers are picking up the tab..
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
this is a great article about the biological passport system.


http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/ashenden-understanding-usadas-armstrong-charges_227833
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
if your following the Vuelta...

Convicted doper Valverde passed convicted doper Contador at the finish to win stage 8!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
How does someone pass hundreds of drug tests, without failing any, if the tests are worth anything?

Why administer tests in the first place? Wouldn't it be more effective to just ask around, if you want to find out who's doing what?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:49pm PT
For them to try to take away his lifetime wins is like saying Harding didn't get the 1st ascent of the Nose because he did not free it. Screw that. Keep on rocking Lance!!!

Yeah, Harding was up to his neck in ETOH courage enchancing substances! The FA goes to Robbins who was probably clean

;-)

Can you imagine if they did this in the NFL like they just did with Penn State (Taking away wins)? You'd have retired players who suddenly found out they'd won the super bowl and suing their old bosses for bonuses and rings

Karl
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
What if they find out that the Lantern Rouge (sp?) ( he's the guy who's dead-last in the standings ) was doping and therefore disqualified?

Does this mean that the guy who finished second-to-last, and worked his ass off for three weeks to avoid a last place finish, is now given just that?
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:59pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

good one Chaz
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 25, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
I haven't read all of the above, but I've always suspected the guy. And once I saw the photo op of lance riding bikes with bush I knew he was evil. Ha

No one can ever know for sure but lances response - written by a ghost writer no doubt (very effective piece of writing I might add) - tries to point out that some people willing to testify have themselves been accused (and perhaps offered leniency for their testimony ) but obfuscating the fact that there is practically no one from his team that won't testify against him. Hell, even his girl friend is willing to testify.

Meanwhile, the point of all this is to allow honest and clean riders to compete. Its not possible if dopers are given a pass. I'm not sure if technologically it can ever be stopped - but its worth the effort IMHO.
Sparky

Trad climber
vagabond movin on
Aug 25, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
The best explanation of the whole doping mess I have seen.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

A pretty good explanation of how they avoid detection.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/biol...ndis-seriously
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Aug 25, 2012 - 07:39pm PT
Agree with rottenjohnny - and after USADA is finished with Eddie Mercxk and Greg Lemond, maybe they can go after the Steeler offensive line from the 1970's. Rumor has it that Mike Webster, Jon Kolb and some of the boys liked to dabble in anabolics. And rumor is all that USADA seems to need. They can head down to Heinz Field and confiscate those Lombardi trophies and then they can get Chuck Noll kicked out of the hall of fame. And then maybe they can try to clean up baseball's "greenies" era and strip Cincinnati's Big Red Machine and other teams of their world series titles.
D.Eubanks

climber
Aug 25, 2012 - 08:02pm PT
Seems like all of the USADA need to find something to justify their jobs... losers.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 25, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
This is why actual crimes have statutes of limitation attached to them. ( except for murder and maybe child molestation ) It's to keep prosecuting bodies from holding un-proven accusations against someone for several years without ever having to make their case..

At some point - long ago, in my opinion - the sh#t-or-get-off-the-pot principle applied here.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 25, 2012 - 09:13pm PT
Did anyone bother to read the Federal judge's ruling?

he basically said that while there was no Federal jurisdiction, Armstrong was facing a kangaroo court with no chance for due process.
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 25, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
There is no such thing as clean pro rider so why even bother....
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2012 - 09:42pm PT
They never bathe?
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 10:04pm PT
^Why would they do that? Also, is drinking one's own bath water considered good, bad, ugly, a form of doping, an enlightening experience ...

Now I know there are cultures in the world wherein one's own urine is consumed and as I recall, it is a means of getting high and they are not known to participate in bicycling.

Lastly,
Isn't the USADA the same group that approves all the tainted meat for sale up in the central valley? I'd like to see the drug profile and some o' them cows.





monolith

climber
albany,ca
Aug 25, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
hehe, USDA = US Department of Agriculture, although they might as well be the dairy association considering how much subsidies dairy gets.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
USADA, USDA (type I and type II) and throw in the ADA (Americans for Democratic Action) and FPCC*

I'd advocate combining all these; agriculture, diary, anti-doping, political provacateurs into a super agency and put them in charge of patents and telecommunications.

Someone has got to bring Apple under control.

I do wonder who broke into Steve Jobs house recently. I hope it wasnt' Daniel Ellsburg or that guy who debated Tim Leary.


*for the un- or mis- informed - Fair Play for Cuba Committee

Among its twenty-nine early notable supporters were William Appleman Williams, Norman Mailer, Truman Capote, James Baldwin, Jean-Paul Sartre, Allen Ginsberg and Lawrence Ferlinghetti, as well as Latin Americans Waldo Frank and Carleton Beals


WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
Well ......

According to the conclusion drawn from this thread and it's inhabitants.

Lance Armstrong needs to bathe .... !!!!!!!
beef supreme

climber
the west
Aug 25, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
regardless of what side of the issue you're on- gotta admit- sure is a whole lotta bullsh!t about seeing who can ride a bike the fastest. pretty simple idea- gone to hell.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
^^Wade in the Water children.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
Armstrong refused arbitration, nothing else.

USADA can prevent him from competing professionally on U.S. turf.

Only the UCI can nullify his tour victories.


Only the UCI can nullify his tour victories. It won’t because it would lead to the nullification of all race results in which competitors could be suspected based on testimony of others, not to mention riders who actually tested positive at some time during their careers. That would include Merckx, Riis, Ullrich, Zabel, David Millar, Valverde and Pereiro, who ended up in first place at the tour after Floyd Landis’ positive test in 2006. The list is long and the motivation of those who have an ax to grind against someone is potentially endless. It would set a precedent for unsubstantiated accusations to change legitimate race results on a grand scale.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 26, 2012 - 12:51am PT
From cyclingnews...

(if everyone knew he was being informed, why are we just hearing about it now. Also, are there some Sky accusations in the paragraph I highlighted?)

American said to have been given time “to cover his tracks”

Lance Armstrong was “warned before all planned doping controls,” an adviser to the French anti-doping agency AFLD has said. Michel Rieu, scientific adviser to AFLD, said this was only one of the methods the American used to escape detection of his doping.

"The inspectors encountered many difficulties in making unannounced checks. Armstrong was always informed in advance, so he still had twenty minutes to cover his tracks. He could thin his blood or replace his urine. He used the EPO only in small quantities, so it was no longer there to detect. We were powerless against this way of working,” Rieu told the Le Monde newspaper.

He also claimed that Armstrong used a large network to help him with his doping, and his avoidance of positive doping controls. "Armstrong let himself be surrounded by many physiologists. Also in the logistics field, everything was possible. The rumor was that his private jet was flying blood in from the United States.”

Armstrong was on Friday given a lifetime ban by the USADA, with all his results since August 1998, disqualified, including his seven Tour de France victories. He had chosen not to challenge doping charges which the American agency had brought against him.

French attorney Thibault de Montbrial, who defended the paper in a suit filed by Armstrong against LA Confidential authors David Walsh and Pierre Ballester, thinks the cumulative pressure of authors such as these and the SCA Promotions lawsuit that followed contributed to the downfall of Armstrong.

He also believes riders are still showing suspicious signs.

"Work together with Antoine Vayer [LeMond columnist], the performance specialist, helped show the implausibility of the power generated in watts on the climbs. Moreover, it is interesting to note that the UCI has banned the publication of such real-time statistics in 2012. And we can understand why when you see that the power production by [Bradley] Wiggins and [Chris] Froome (first and second of the Tour) is comparable to the turbulent times of the late 1990s and early 2000s."Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed



knudeNoggin

climber
Falls Church, VA
Aug 26, 2012 - 02:00am PT
Trafficking, Administration to others

It seems the judicial inquisition would have nailed him here if there was evidence.

Did anybody watch these races on TV, wasn't that Armstrong peddling his ass off there,

(-: quite the ironic misspelling on that one !


Reading a Wikipedia article on the TdF, one gets the idea that *doping* has been
a long-standing practice, from amphetamines & painkillers to modern stuff.

Reading Wiki's blurb on Greg Lemond, one gets the idea that Greg greatly
objected to this doping. And for lamenting Lance's early association with
Dr.Ferrari (who wasn't known as Better Housekeeping's Top Doc, but for less
noble ventures), Greg was threatened by Lance into apology and so on. And
that's rather early in LA's career. One might wonder : why didn't Lance just
talk to Greg and explain the innocent nature of Dr.F's association and all?
--unless it wasn't, and so on . ... all speculative, but some things fit,
and some don't (such as Landis's response to Lemond's urging "come clean"
of "what good would that do?" --not what an innocent person would say!).


There seems to be some considerable *smoke* (even if not showing the
*flame* of proof) of Lance running roughshod over those who got in his
way; I'm not all so forgiving of that even if part of his way was towards
helping others w/a foundation.
.
.
.
And wheels yet churn in this battle of USADA & UCI & ... , so we can await
what becomes in the next round.



As for excitement of TdF? Geeesh, why NOT being MORExciting with tough,
enforced, FOLLOWED prohibitions against doping? How exciting is it to see
Day-N of the favored rider taking his XX-minute lead with assurance over
hill & dale and with projected slight gains, maybe loss, from some upcoming
ITT ? Damn UNexciting; maybe it's okay if you're a fanboy of whoever the
maillot jaune is, but otherwise, no --and it's not the excitement of a race,
just the eagerness of confirming a crown. Who needs that?

Of course, in the USA, if the TdF lacks a USA leader/contender,
or lots of wrecks & injuries (blood!),
or controversy (doping),
there's no press value to it. Just pop up another pic of Anna Kournikova[?] (who
never won anything), and report the latest speeding/parking/bad-hair-or-dress
violations of a local-team benchwarmer. THAT's the 4th Estate!


*kN*
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 26, 2012 - 02:41am PT
I don't like cheaters. In any sport.

And I don't like habitual liars. In life.

If there ends up proof that he cheated. Its a big deal, and it should be. And if he's any kind of a real man, he'll admit to cheating and deal with the consequences. If not, not only is he a cheater, but a liar.

But a man should be innocent until proven guilty. Not sure exactly where this puts Lance, though his riding was some of the best that's ever been done. Shame on him if he's a cheater, or a liar, or both. We may never know the full truth, but I'd like to take a man at his word. Sad its hard to do these days in sports, politics, etc....
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 26, 2012 - 05:04am PT
You guys think what the USADA did to Lance Armstrong was terrible? Consider what they did to Neil Armstrong.

Revoking his title as "First Man on the Moon" just because he's not alive to prove he wasn't doping?

Shameful.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 26, 2012 - 11:04am PT
peddling

Good to see that someone got it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Aug 26, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
Dang, someone forgot to push my give-a-shit button this morning.

F Lance.....
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 26, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-takes-second-in-mountain-bike-race-in-colorado.html
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 26, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
What Oscar Pereiro said..." What is USADA going to do..? Give Lance's 7 TDF titles to Alex Zulle ( doper ) or Joseba Beloki ( doper )...Bagh...!
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 26, 2012 - 03:46pm PT
What Oscar Pereiro said..." What is USADA going to do..? Give Lance's 7 TDF titles to Alex Zulle ( doper ) or Joseba Beloki ( doper )...Bagh...!

Very fortunately, that's not up to the USADA. When they attempt to "strip" LA of his TDF wins without the authority to do so, their arrogance offends me.

Curt
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 26, 2012 - 04:17pm PT
If this stands.....

The UCI needs to retest everyone that might get the "titles", whether they have ever tested positive or not. They need to question all their team mates to see if they witnessed anything.

The USADA has to retest all US rider's samples that ever won anything and question all their team mates.

Only fair.

But they won't. They wanted to shoot a famous villager to send a message. They want the publicity to justify their jobs and all the money they are paid.

This retroactive approach is a slippery slope.
Fletcher

Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
Aug 26, 2012 - 05:45pm PT
I've followed much but not all of this thread. I've not seen much about the issues with UCI in terms of enabling doping. Padraig addresses this in this post which I think covers the complexity of this situation pretty well:

Endgame

The UCI is in need of reform as well.

Also, here is some breaking news from the Onion (not really!)... :-)

Lance Armstrong Lets Down Single Person Who Still Believed Him

Eric
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 26, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
Never had any respect for forced contract signings with monopolies.

Oh sure you don't have to sign this contract but if you don't you can't ride.

Oh sure you don't have to sign the contract but if you dont you can't have electricity.

whatever.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 27, 2012 - 12:09pm PT
Not so fast, in the race to condemn.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120825,0,2080853.column

Anti-doping authorities don't play fair against athletes

It's a system deliberately designed to place almost insurmountable hurdles in the way of athletes defending themselves or appealing adverse findings. Evidence has emerged over the years that laboratories certified by the World Anti-Doping Agency, or WADA, have been incompetent at analyzing athletes' samples or fabricated results when they didn't get the numbers they were hoping to see.


We're talking about three, four, five years of litigation

Before we go further, let's address the question most people think is the nub of the matter. Is Lance Armstrong a doper?

Here's the answer: I don't know. You don't know either. More to the point, Travis Tygart, head of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, doesn't know. That hasn't kept USADA from declaring Armstrong to be guilty of charges it has not proved in public, or to attempt to strip him of his seven Tour de France titles. (It's not yet clear that USADA has the latter authority.)


In part that's because under the rules written by the anti-doping system, athletes' cases are heard not in a court of law but in arbitration.

Arbitration is a system that more Americans are becoming familiar with, to their misfortune and distaste. It's where banks, brokerages, cellphone companies and other powerful business institutions force their customers to litigate grievances, for the simple reason that arbitration systems favor those who use them the most — banks, brokerages, cellphone companies, etc.


The real secret of why anti-doping agencies have been able to hound athletes out of their sports with impunity is that in this system they're not only the prosecutors but also the judges and juries. They write the arbitration rules, including those governing what evidence is relevant and under what circumstances it can be questioned.

Defending oneself in this system is horrifically expensive. The hiring of lawyers and scientific experts, the cost of visiting labs in foreign lands and attending hearings all over the country can drive a routine defense to six figures.

How many amateur athletes have the resources to do that? So most defendants give in and accept a suspension for a year or more. But countless innocent athletes, or competitors whose violations are clearly the result of an accident or blameless error, carry the stigma of cheater because they couldn't afford a defense.

"You're up against a prosecutor who drafts the rules, and goes back and changes the rules when they go against him," says Michael Straubel, director of the sports law clinic at Valparaiso University Law School and a defense attorney who handed USADA one of its rare defeats in an arbitration case.


For example, World Anti-Doping Agency rules provide for an eight-year statute of limitations, meaning that anti-doping agencies aren't supposed to use test results older than that to bring charges against an athlete. But Armstrong has pointed out that USADA was basing its case against him on test results as much as 14 years old. Presto: WADA is proposing to update its statute of limitations to 14 years — and it's proposing that the update be retroactive.


Federal Judge Sam Sparks of Austin, Texas, who was asked by Armstrong to block USADA's case against him, found lots not to like about the agency's pursuit of the cyclist. He called USADA's charging document, a letter that listed Armstrong's purported doping violations, "so vague and unhelpful it would not pass muster in any court in the United States." The deficiency, he said, "is of serious constitutional concern."



And now a personal story.

It seems like one would want, like Lance, to fight for vindication of one's name, no matter what.

I was sued in a malpractice case 30 years ago, in which I was the treating ER physician in a small town ER. The fellow fell off a horse and hit his head. I established he'd fractured his skull and had brain damage, and transferred him to the closest major center, as we did not have resources/specialists to treat him there. My care was perfect. He did not do well, and everyone was sued. Three years dragged on, and one by one, parties settled out. Then I was served with ANOTHER suit from MY malpractice insurance carrier, to be let out of defending me. Turns out that the contract holder had not paid the premium on the insurance. Long story short, I would have had to pay any costs of going to trial.

The Plaintiffs made an offer to let me out for $10,000, which would require me to report this settlement for the rest of my career. My attorneys told me that defending the case would cost me, out of my pocket, a minimum of $90,000 IF I WON. If I lost, or were found to have contributed to the damage in any way, THERE WAS NO LIMIT ON WHAT IT COULD COST ME.
I settled the case for $10,000, and I have had to give explanations to every employer, on every university application, and every hospital application, and every renewal for my entire career.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 27, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
Ken....Sounds like extortion-fraud on behalf of your insurance company....? Good article from the LA Times...The punch line , if Armstrong has his titles taken away , is that everyone knows he was the winner on a level playing field of dopers....Lance passed all the drug tests and is now being tested via heresay 7 years after the fact...I think it is called double jeopardy...?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 27, 2012 - 01:32pm PT
I'm having a hard time trying to see any relevance of Ken M's case for the case of LA. Ken M's case does not seem fair. In the LA case there are 10 persons who are ready to tell the story about what really happened. The witnesses are comparable to doctors who dare not publically speak out against the dark side of a dysfunctional health care system, but who have finally decided to tell the story.

I wonder if corporate and media tricksters are trying to scare the witnesses off?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 27, 2012 - 01:43pm PT
Telling the story will not make them heros in any possible way. But they will contribute to open up the possibility of a cleaner sport.

Jebus: What is interesting with a yellow wrist band in the LA case?
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 27, 2012 - 03:36pm PT
I have questions about where these 10 credible witnesses were when the Dept. of Justice investigated this matter for two years. Clearly, team physicians, coaches, teammates, etc., would have been the first place they started. Also, how credible are those witnesses if the drug tests nevertheless turned up negative?

If the DOJ was unable to piece together a credible case in that amount of time, the puny little USADA probably has little more than it's dick in its hand. No wonder Armstrong refused to arbitrate. They probably would have insisted on binding arbitration and the right to select the arbitrators. You'd have to be an idiot to agree to participate on those terms.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 27, 2012 - 04:00pm PT
Regardless of any past wrongdoing by Hiltzik this article is reasoned and
balanced. As for the LA case being cut and dried that is purely mental
speculation that ignores existing facts and, more importantly, many facts
the public is not privy to.

I have a good friend who is a world famous bio-chemist and the VP in charge
of R&D for a worldwide drug company. He says those anti-doping labs are a joke and
he wouldn't have his dog's pee tested there.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 27, 2012 - 04:57pm PT
Reilly

Is your friend treating his dog in such a way that his dog needs to be tested? Or are you just being polemical? And if your friend is treating his dog in such a way that it needs to be tested - is your friend then a person to be trusted?

Is this a typical American discussion with yellow wrist bands and dog pee carrying the same data and reasoning weight as the words of witnesses and the results of laboratory tests? Is this the heaven of American subjectivity or is it just spinning?
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 27, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
LA isn't even challenging the merits of the case anymore - it is all procedural.
Where on earth did you form that belief? From his unwillingness to participate in arbitration? He's repeatedly denied any wrongdoing. Whether you choose to believe him or not, that's challenging the merits of the case. He's just not stupid enough to step into a one-sided forum to formally deny those charges.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 27, 2012 - 05:39pm PT
Fat Dad

I am able to understand that the burden of evidence was at last to heavy for LA to carry.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 27, 2012 - 06:07pm PT
Chief,

That letter is contradictory and, in my opinion, a cop out. First, the letter is from the UCI retracting it's own prior public announcement, in effect, we didn't mean it that time; now we do. Second, the comment in the letter:
fact known to us at this stage, there seems to be no question that theADO which discoveredthe violations is USADA. Therefore, USADA’s results management procedure (i.e ., the “USADA Protocol”) is controlling.
What facts? If the guy doped, the UCI would have the results. What facts were "discovered" to contradict those results?

There is a fundamental conundrum that both the UCI and USADA are establishing. One, they've relied on their own testing in the past as evidence of doping. Two, they're now saying that if you have "evidence" which contradicts our own test results, which we've always assumed to be accurate and inviolate, that the test results don't mean anything in the face of that other evidence. How can that be?

I believe what this posturing shows proves the premise of the Hzitlick (sp?) article: that the anti-doping agencies just make up this sh#t as they go along.
PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
I find it telling that very few cyclists (pro) have anything to say (unless they have been caught). My suspician is because they all know that many of them enhanced in the past and probably many still do some things that are less risky. The recent story in the NYTimes by Vaughters shows that the regulators let the cyclists enhance (didn't really care) so they all did it to keep up. Now to come back and pretend that the organizers don't play a major role in why this happened is foolish. all the insiders know that everyone that was good in the old days was doping and as said earlier whoever gets named the winner of the races that LA won is very likely to be a doper also. So just put and asterisk by every winners name and say they are probably dopers because that is the way it is.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
Chief....There's a lot going on behind the scenes...Pray tell ? One who hangs out with the bolsheviks....RJ
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
Lance got assf*#ked in a sport full of dopers. What else is new? Got to have that strawman to burn in the end
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
During the 2002 Winter olympics , Frank Shorter was head of the doping cops...Apparently the cops tell the athletes what they are going to test for...Well shorter fibbed when he told them what they were testing for and some russian women got caught red-handed when they believed shorter...They had to turn in their medals...And Chief hangs out with Russians...?
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
Riley Wyna has turned out to be such a complete whine-a. Thought you were cooler than this.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 27, 2012 - 09:25pm PT
The Chief...The Iranian commy jew boys didn't last very long...? What the fuk did you do to em...? RJain...
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 27, 2012 - 10:00pm PT
If the goal is to "clean-up" the "sport", then why are so many admitted dopers granted immunity so that one guy gets nailed. This is no house cleaning, it's a sham.

Are they claiming that Mr. Armstrong single-handedly introduced, supported, encouraged, advocated, ... the use of doping products and techniques?


V E N D E T T A !!

The best solution would be to ban competitive bicycling totally for 10 years. They're all guilty. Maybe the riders could get a job pinch-running in baseball.

Don't look back, they might be gaining on you

Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Aug 27, 2012 - 10:42pm PT
I was waiting for Pound Dick to weigh in. It's not that I disagree with these guys - I just think their priorities are screwed up. The retroactivity of the process bothers me too. What if we had samples from every athlete in every sport from every year? How would we deal with the findings?

The rule for every sport should be as follows: In each season (or event), you have a battery of tests, technology and testing protocols that you inform the athletes of. During that season (or event) they are subject to the various tests. If they pass the tests, it is declared that they passed - period. It would not be stated that an athlete was clean - just that he or she had passed the requisite tests in place at that time. There wouldn't be rules that specified what you can and can't take - the only rule would be not to fail the tests in place at that time. There would be no saving samples for re-testing years and decades down the road with new technologies, no further investigations or testimony from witnesses as to who was actually doing what. If you fail a test, shame on you. You are disqualified and must suffer the consequences. If you pass, congratulations. You have played by the rules and "honored" the requirement of not failing - either because you are truly clean or due to your superior technology and masking techniques. Cleanliness or cleverness - either way we don't give a shtt as long as you pass the tests.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 27, 2012 - 11:28pm PT
Well Locker, we all knew that you were clean (you'll wonder where the yellow went, when you brush your teeth with pepsodent), but have you ever stolen a base? Base-jumped, free-based?



Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 28, 2012 - 12:05am PT
this is the most f*#ked up thread on st. its like a bunch of bikers on a biker thread bitchin about rap placed bolts. f*#kin ignorance but what do you expect from someone with little man complex like the sh#t.
jstan

climber
Aug 28, 2012 - 12:22am PT
Face it guys. The TDF is for wussies.




rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 28, 2012 - 01:23am PT
Locker..Glad to see you made it to the pros...Did they test you for blood packing...?
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 28, 2012 - 11:24am PT
Concerning Ellis, did they also test to make sure that he hadn't taken a steriod masker that gives a false positive for LSD?

Satchel Paige never used drugs. Give him the no-hitter and Armstrong's seven titles, I say.

crunch

Social climber
CO
Aug 28, 2012 - 02:09pm PT
It's unfortunate and embarrassing how this is happening so long after all his wins but I think it's only now becoming apparent the scale and cynicism that, according to these allegations, went into Armstrong's doping efforts. To take away his wins makes a horrible mess in the cycling world but to do nothing, knowing what they know now, would look worse.

Great article, Chief. Thanks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html?_r=3&ref=opinion&pagewanted=all

Disclaimer: I really don't give a damn, except that by cleaning up other sports, there's maybe a better chance that our own will stay more or less the anarchic, fun, not-so-overtly-competitive sport that we all know.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 28, 2012 - 02:38pm PT
If the only way to keep a game clean is rigorous anti-doping testing then the 'sport' has already failed by every measure that counts.
jstan

climber
Aug 28, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
Disclaimer: I really don't give a damn, except that by cleaning up other sports, there's maybe a better chance that our own will stay more or less the anarchic, fun, not-so-overtly-competitive sport that we all know.

Can I take it you are therefore opposed to recognition of climbing as an Olympic sport?

Do you think your opposition will prove successful?

I fear the things you enjoyed are headed for the dustbin.

Happens.

The Olympic ideal of amateur sport, coming from its Greek origins where any citizen might compete, has been in the dustbin for quite some time. Practically speaking, climbing is well on its way toward joining this absurdity.



Time to move on.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 28, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
Practically speaking, climbing is well on its way toward joining this absurdity.

Hmmmm. Yes, and no. The fact that professional and Olympic cycling are completely riddled with drugs, scandal, rules, bribery, conspiracy, and whatever else, does nothing whatsoever to prevent me from getting on my bike and doing the things I always loved to do on my bike.

And the fact that climbing might one day become what cycling is now won't prevent you, me, or anyone else from hiking up to the crag and doing what we've always done.

And since climbing is so mind-meltingly boring to watch, I don't see how it's ever going to become a big-time sport.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 28, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
The Olympic ideal of amateur sport, coming from its Greek origins where any citizen might compete, has been in the dustbin for quite some time. Practically speaking, climbing is well on its way toward joining this absurdity.

Sad, but true - an inevitable outcome of climbing gyms.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 28, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
Lovegasolene

+150

one of the best ever on the Taco.

Almost same thing happened to me.....
I was head of French frys at Burger Chief...

Big day off..... do a dose, then the boss calls.

"Timmy called in sick, I need you down here fast"

I was able to make Golden Brown Fries at breakneck pace.

I wonder if they want my paycheck back??


jstan

climber
Aug 28, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
And since climbing is so mind-meltingly boring to watch, I don't see how it's ever going to become a big-time sport.

You are an optimist David.

The importers of african lions to Rome looked at their audience and figured out how to make money off those lions.

OK. You take it from there concerning climbing as an audience thing.

My optimism this election year has grown paper thin.
thetennisguy

Mountain climber
Yuba City, CA
Aug 28, 2012 - 04:16pm PT
His main accuser ... doper Floyd Landis ... need I say more?

He passed every doping test they game him.

Do the French really want an American to win their race 7 x's ? They were all over him for years and couldn't pin anything on him after testing him so many times in each race!

Do we really trust the USADA like we would a court in this country? Armstrong is being tried by the USADA in the court of public opinion ...

Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 28, 2012 - 04:41pm PT
So I guess Hincapie has only ridden for 2 TDF winners?
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 28, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
Marion Jones passed one hundred and sixty doping tests. she failed the next one, and admitted she was guilty.

as far as climbing in the olympics, it will just be another contrived event.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny,sawdust does not work like chalk
Aug 28, 2012 - 05:36pm PT
every big man lance beat on his way to 7,ulrich,pantini,vinakorov,even contador were busted,lance and his doctors just knew how to do it.you can believe that.i am a lifelong cyclist .
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Aug 28, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
god I love that lsd video! I watched it twice.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 28, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
"Running should be a pastime," ... "All sports should be a pastime. There shouldn't be all this professional stuff.

Ed Whitlock, holder of almost all age group running records.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 29, 2012 - 10:37am PT

Tyler Hamilton book now set for Sept. 5 release


LOS ANGELES (AP) — Tyler Hamilton's tell-all book about Lance Armstrong and doping in cycling will be released two weeks earlier than originally planned.

"The Secret Race: Inside the Hidden World of the Tour de France: Doping, Cover-ups, and Winning at All Costs," is now scheduled for release Sept. 5.

Ballantine Bantam Dell touts the book as the "first deeply detailed window into one of the defining sports stories of our time."

Armstrong said last week he would not pursue arbitration in a case brought by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, which stripped his record seven Tour de France titles.

Included in the case was Hamilton's interview with "60 Minutes" claiming he had personal knowledge of Armstrong doping.

Armstrong has steadfastly denied doping but said he was tired of fighting USADA.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Tyler-Hamilton-book-now-set-for-Sept-5-release-3822871.php#ixzz24wiXWJii

dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Aug 29, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
I'm looking forward to Tyler's book.
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Aug 30, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
Lance wants us all to "move forward"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oy0GFjC5v4&feature=player_embedded
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 30, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
I had never seen that LSD video, genius.

That would be great if they could eliminate doping, btw!
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 31, 2012 - 12:25am PT
I didn't sell it to him, but I think Doc Ellis took DMT that day, not LSD.


Several speculative and yet untested hypotheses suggest that endogenous DMT is produced in the human brain and is involved in certain psychological and neurological states.


Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 31, 2012 - 01:06am PT
A NEW TWIST

USADA responds to Liggett's claims of bribery in Armstrong case

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-responds-to-liggetts-claims-of-bribery-in-armstrong-case


Ashenden calls commenator's claims 'ignorant'

USADA has issued a stinging response following veteran cycling commentator Phil Liggett's interview where the 69-year-old suggested that witnesses had been paid for giving evidence against Lance Armstrong in the agency's investigation into doping and conspiracy.

Speaking with South Africa's Ballz Radio on August 27, Liggett questioned the merits of USADA's case.

"Why is USADA doing this?" he repeatedly posed. "It's politically motivated. They have a reason for doing this and it's not what they say - it's not to clean up the sport of cycling. There is another reason behind this which they are clearly not saying."

Last week, Armstrong announced that he would not fight USADA's charges of doping and conspiracy which resulted in the agency stripping him of all results, including his seven Tour de France titles, obtained on and subsequent to August 1, 1998 and then issuing a lifetime ban.

Liggett continued: "I could get 10 people together and say, ‘I don't like you. And you take drugs.' But I have no proof. So the fact remains there is no evidence." According to the commentator, who has business interests with Armstrong, USADA is "a nefarious local drugs agency" before going on to claim that it was corrupt.

"Now I can tell you one thing," Liggett said. "And I could prove it in SA [South Africa] but I ... I met a chap who worked with Armstrong on Saturday in Boulder Colorado. And he told me that he had a visit, two years ago, to tell, and the question was, they were agents from a particular agency and they said: ‘Will you tell us that Lance Armstrong took EPO? And we could assure that you will never want for money again'. That was his quote on Thursday and he told them in words I can't put on radio what to do with that and they said "I think we're talking to the wrong man" and they walked away.

"I believe that these 10 witnesses who have all admitted apparently to seeing Lance take drugs, or selling drugs or passing them on and they themselves taking drugs - the reason they're witnesses is they've either been paid or they've been given a deal that they'll never be touched as far as suspensions go."

In response to the claims, USADA issued the following:

"It is blatantly false information from someone who has never had the courtesy to contact USADA for truthful and accurate information," said USADA media relations manager, Annie Skinner.

Meantime, former independent UCI biological passport panel member Dr. Michael Ashenden has written an open letter to Liggett calling his claims ‘ignorant'.

Published on nyvelocity.com, Ashenden says:

"But to answer your question, USADA is not doing this just because of Lance Armstrong. Instead, its about a conspiracy. You can find that word often in USADA's charging letter. A conspiracy that has infested cycling for over a decade. A conspiracy whose filthy tentacles still strangle sport today. A conspiracy that needs to be excised like a cancerous growth."


Degaine

climber
Aug 31, 2012 - 03:19am PT
The Chief,

Just curious, why do you impugn Lance but not the rest of professional cycling?

All those other guys testifying were complicit to say the least and totally willing to take performance enhancing drugs. No one forced them and they could have easily bowed out of competing.

Or perhaps bowing out or refusing to cheat is easier said than done and all cyclists get caught up in the system, cede to the pressures and compromise their values since, as this is their livelihood, they see no other way out (as perhaps many of us do in our careers, daily lives, etc.).

You have to admit that the viewing audience is a bit schizophrenic with regard to cycling: condemning drug use while at the same time demanding that the athletes ride faster and go beyond what is humanly possible (with out doping). The sponsors are complicit, too. Both implicitly condones this behavior while hiding behind the fact that drug testing exists, then act outraged when one gets caught.

I don't know which I find more disgusting, the rampant doping in cycling, or the fact that cyclists, once one of "their own" is caught, throw the guilty so easily under the bus.

Humans are not perfect, and that includes Lance Armstrong. He may be a dick in person (can't say, never met him), and he probably took performance enhancing substances during his career (as every other TdF competitor did), but perhaps his great work for cancer makes up for or is some form of repentance for his "sins" as a rider.

Honest question, what has Hamilton done for cancer lately? Lemond?
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 31, 2012 - 10:15am PT
RIP Art Heyman (ave: 25.1 points, 10.9 rebounds) for Duke and led them to first Final Four in 1963.

Rode on others' shoulders, but didn't dope.



zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 31, 2012 - 10:21am PT
Well (The) Chief. I guess you're right. Mr. Amrstrong should be lynched.

Along with all the other dopers in bicycling. Isn't Contador an admitted doper? Associates of LeMond say he did (oops he's already been shot).

Should Tyler Hamilton, an admitted doper, make money off tattling on Armstrong. Where's his non-disclosure?

Like I said, ban bicycle racing for ten years.

Fletcher

Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
Aug 31, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
More nuance and thoughtful consideration from Red Kite Prayer.

http://redkiteprayer.com/2012/08/forgoing-judgement/

Also, a larger perspective by Frank Deford on doping/drugs in sports in general:

http://www.npr.org/2012/08/29/160167958/just-say-no-doping-diminishes-all-athletes

cheers,
Eric

P.S. That Doc Ellis LSD no hitter story was amazing! I followed baseball religiously when I was a kid (when that happened) but had no clue. Very entertaining. He told a good story. RIP.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 31, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
Chief, the thing about your diatribe that bothers, is that LA has NOT been convicted of anything, anywhere.

Here in America, there has always been a standard of innocent until proven guilty.

but you throw that out.

LA may be guilty, he may even be LIKELY to be guilty, but one can state with CERTAINTY that YOU DON"T KNOW.

He has just emerged from a legal process that involved the US Gov't, with substantial legal powers, clean....that involved the SAME PEOPLE that are running the current process.

The couldn't convict him, or even indict him, under the rules.

So what do they do, change the rules. And make it clear that they will keep changing the rules until 80 year old Lance Armstrong, dead for 10 years, is convicted.

On the face of it, it appears agenda driven, not objective.
"We're gonna get that guy"

And as you learned in the navy, if a Chief wants to get a guy, he will.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Aug 31, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
Chief, dude, back off, your lifer tude is showing thru. You're a tool thru and thru
Degaine

climber
Aug 31, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
The Chief,

If you prefer to be a f*#king dick and not actually read someone's post then at least have the courtesy to write that you're just looking rant and don't give a sh#t about the opinions or thoughts of others. That way we'll steer clear and not respond in any way shape or form.

Admit it, you didn't read a word of my post and just decided to lash out and be a total cöcksucker since I don't demonize and vilify Lance to the same hyperbolic extent that you do.

Are you so frustrated about being old that you need to take it out on others in the way that you do?

I sure hope that when my days are numbered and have one foot in the grave as you do that I don't act like a bitter f*#king c*#ks@cker during a simple exchange about something as insignificant in the grand scheme of things as professional cycling.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 31, 2012 - 02:53pm PT
I guess the old term "LA turnaround" has taken on new meaning.

I would like to see a gradation of doping artifacts:

For example:

EPO alone
EPO supplemented with blood transfusion
EPO with blood and an LA turnaround
EPO with blood and LA turnarmound and anabolic steriod

you got it ...

With complete divulging of the various enhancers there could be tiered competitions.

I don't know who gets paid the most, the volume users or the skinflints.

And just like Willard Romney, this would all be done on the "honor" system.





Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 31, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
As much as The Chief likes to spew about truth and honesty, "truth" is the last thing he is interested in. He is only interested in seeing Lance Armstrong get screwed out of his TDF titles.

As if it weren't clear enough before, this clearly demonstrates The Chief's extreme bias:

Old Bernie Madoff contributed large amounts (100's of 1000's) of his scammed funds to several local and international children's and homeless charities. Does that negate his over all behavior?

Only a truly warped individual would compare Lance Armstrong with Bernie Madoff in any context.

Curt

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 31, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Nice post Ken M (as usual). Lance A is innocent until shown otherwise. And it hasn't been shown otherwise.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 31, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
For me, if there is evidence he cheated which leads to a 'conviction' of it, I'll simply think 'he cheated, he's guilty, he should be stripped of any titles he earned while cheating.'

Until then, he is innocent until proven guilty. Pretty straightforward to me.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Aug 31, 2012 - 03:27pm PT
Lifer = Tool
crunch

Social climber
CO
Aug 31, 2012 - 04:44pm PT
Nice post Ken M (as usual). Lance A is innocent until shown otherwise. And it hasn't been shown otherwise.

It's not quite so clear. He's said he's not fighting the allegations.

I'd construe this as the equivalent of pleading no contest. He accepts that the verdict, officially, will be guilty. He accepts that he will be stripped, officially, of his medals. He can state, honestly, that he was not "found" guilty. He can say he won the TDF seven times. Since the governing body will see this as the functional equivalent of a guilty plea, they can close their case. So, no more unpleasant allegations and stories will be surfacing, officially.

This, in the short term, suits everyone. In the longer term this is a bad ending to this saga. Bad because there is no resolution; see the ups and downs of this thread for instance. It's no ending at all.

One the one hand, the saga looks on the surface like the witch-hunt that Armstrong's supporters claim it to be. Maybe he never doped but was one of the greatest athletes of all time. The accusations are all trumped up out of jealously. Maybe he is, truly, tired of fighting.

On the other, perhaps he doped his entire career. Bit by bit, rumors have surfaced and, one by one, those who supported and enabled his doping have been persuaded to tell their tales. And now, with a mountain of evidence, leaving him no honorable way out, he's crying uncle.

This murky limbo of non-verdict is Armstrong's choice. The regular sporting and media world that fixates on winners and losers, stars, heroes. Armstrong took full advantage of this media game while he was a winner, a star.

Now he's refusing to play.

Even If he's innocent, he's really letting his fans down by crying uncle, refusing an honest accounting of what happened. Don't be so hard on the Chief; he's onto something here that goes deeper than one guy riding a bicycle.
Dolomite

climber
Anchorage
Aug 31, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
Dang, Bullwinkle, tell us what you really think.

I'm with Indurain (and Ken M above):

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/cycling/usada-has-no-legal-right-to-strip-lance-armstrong/story-fn8sc2wz-1226458458001
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2012 - 05:44pm PT
As an ex-Navy guy I have no compunction stating:

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 1, 2012 - 12:24pm PT
He is going down. When it all comes out as it will in the next couple of weeks, it will be interesting to see how you all react then.


What you mean, is you wonder how we will all respond when confronted with actual EVIDENCE?

Gosh, isn't that what we SHOULD respond to?

What are YOU reacting to, since you admit that the evidence is NOT out?

Rumor, accusation, suspicion.

I notice that you did not respond to my comment that if a Chief wants to "get" a sailor, they will. You are obviously proud of that system, and that way of justice.

This morning, I heard an interesting segment on NPR about George Takai

http://www.npr.org/2012/09/01/160264485/george-takei-takes-story-of-internment-to-the-stage

But his latest project aims to bring a different kind of story to the stage, one with personal and historical resonance. The actor was born in Los Angeles to a Japanese-American family just a few years before Japan's bombing of Pearl Harbor. After that 1941 attack, he and his family were among the tens of thousands of U.S. citizens of Japanese descent who were forced to move to internment camps.

"We were first taken from our home ... in Los Angeles to a horse stable at a race track, San Anita Race Track, near Los Angeles. And we were there for a few months while the camps were being built. And from there we were taken to the swamps of southeastern Arkansas. So, all the Japanese-Americans that were incarcerated followed that pattern: first, what's called an 'assembly center,' a very innocuous-sounding name, and from there to a 'relocation center,' another innocuous word."

"But there [was] another group of people who I admire equally. They're the ones that said, 'Yes, I'm an American and I will fight for this country, but I won't go as an internee from behind these barbed wire fences, leaving my family in imprisonment. I will go only on the condition that I go as an American; that I can report to my hometown draft board with my family in our home, and then I will serve.' And for that courageous and principled stand, they were tried and found guilty of draft evasion and put into federal penitentiaries.

"It was the sheet of paper that was to ascertain the loyalty of people that the government had imprisoned on the suspicion — merely the suspicion, not the guilt — of being potential spies, fifth columnists, traitors. Everyone over the age of 17 had to respond to it whether you were male or female, citizen or noncitizen. ... Question 27 asked 'Will you bear arms to defend the United States of America?' — this being asked of an 87-year-old immigrant lady as well as a 17-year-old young man. Even more insidious was the next question, Question 28. It asked, and I'm paraphrasing, but essentially it said, 'Will you swear your loyalty to the United States of America and foreswear your loyalty to the emperor of Japan?' The government assumed that if you're born with this face — even if you're an American, never been to Japan — that we are born with an organic, inborn loyalty to the emperor. It was offensive and the amazing thing was that so many young people answered yes to those two offensive questions and went and served."


What struck me about that, was that SUSPICION ONLY being the basis of punishment.

Chief, I don't know if your "name" coyly refers to an American Indian heritage, but if it does, why should you have been allowed to serve with the US Military? Don't you owe allegiance to another nation, the Indian Nations? Maybe that is why you were never a commissioned officer, you did't have the loyalty to the country?

Now that was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, as I don't doubt your loyalty for a second, and I apologize if offense was given. But you can see where this sort of thing leads.

We go your route, we can conveniently just forget all that pesky evidence and proof business, and just deal with people on the basis of appearance, or their last name, or rumors.

That's not the country you fought for.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 1, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
Ken:

So you are onboard with the belief that Hamilton, Landis, Andreu, and the other "witnesses" are all bought out, lying, and just plain talking shet about LA. That not one of em is telling the truth. That the only individual in the entire lot that is on the up and up is LA. That he never doped nor did he participate in the process of doing so for and with the entire Motorola/US Postal/Discovery/Radio Shack squads? That this entire deal has and always was a scheme to dethrone LA and greatest? That none of the "accusations" ever happened?

Then it is safe to assume that you also believe that OJ was innocent all along as well. He was found innocent of his actions and thus he too never did any of what he was accused of.... Right?


I don't know about those people, I haven't see their sworn testimony. What did you think when you read it?

I think OJ did it. However, I actually heard the actual evidence, and after I did, I made a judgement.

By the way, I think the jury came to the correct verdict, based upon what was presented to them.

So you STILL won't respond to the allegation that Chief's will "get" a sailor if they want them gotten? Are you as guilty as LA, since you are choosing not to respond to an accusation? How many innocent sailors careers did you destroy, because you felt like it?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 1, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
Landis toured the country soliciting donations from his fan base for his legal defense...Floyd swore he was innocent ...Then he gets popped , exposing himself as a liar and cheat...Same thing happened with Hamilton more or less and eventually Hamilton is exposed for doping...An aquaintance that rode in the recent olympics shared a pitiful story about Tyler during his last competetions on US ground where Tyler was trying to convince other riders that he hadn't used PED's...Floyd and Tyler got caught and i can see how they would want Lance to be exposed but i think these 2 emotionally unstable athletes lack credibility...? I would speculate that Lance doped just like the rest of the peloton but until any evidence is brought forward it is just speculation...And i agree with Big Mig's opinions that USADA does not have the authority to ban UCI athletes...
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 1, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
Just in: OJ and Paul Ryan plotting to lynch Lance Armstrong, but only to within an inch of his life since Paul is pro-life and OJ quite obviously isn't.


May seen fishy to you, it ain't nothin' to me


healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2012 - 03:25pm PT
If any Sailor chooses to not change their ways and play by the rules & regs, continues to lie, cheat and/or steal, he/she then will be "Gotten" rid of by the Chief. That is the Chiefs duty which he/she accepted the day they took the Chiefs Creed and put on the Hat. But only after the Chief does what is expected of them to motivate/discipline (look up the latin definition btw) that particular Sailor.

I don't disagree with this and the fact a great deal of what goes on in the military is mindless bullshit isn't necessarily the chiefs / master sargents fault per se. The job just happens to attract personality types who revel in it's use as a behavioral filter to help identify and assess the malcontents. The problem is, if you have an IQ over 100, then the stifling mindlessness of what passes [unexamined] as 'tradition' is overwhelmingly boorish and adolescent.
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Sep 1, 2012 - 03:58pm PT
So you are onboard with the belief that Hamilton, Landis, Andreu, and the other "witnesses" are all bought out, lying, and just plain talking shet about LA. That not one of em is telling the truth. That the only individual in the entire lot that is on the up and up is LA. That he never doped nor did he participate in the process of doing so for and with the entire Motorola/US Postal/Discovery/Radio Shack squads? That this entire deal has and always was a scheme to dethrone LA and greatest? That none of the "accusations" ever happened?

As others have correctly pointed out, the actual blood test results should take precedence over any sort of verbal testimony. Why? Because it constitutes actual physical evidence--and eye witness testimony is notoriously inaccurate, for various reasons. As someone else also pointed out, for a system to be fair that system must also work both ways--and the USADA kangaroo court does not do that. Nobody believes that positive blood tests for doping could be challenged by a number of teammates testifying that he didn't dope--either the blood tests are definitive, or they are not.

With respect to the USADA claims of actual blood test evidence, all I have read is that they asserted that some of LA's tests are "consistent with doping," whatever that is supposed to mean. As far as I know, they have not specified what samples are being referred to, i.e. during LA's TDF victory years or much later--and that specific language troubles me. For example, a person can have symptoms "consistent" with having a heart attack and not be having a heart attack.

Then it is safe to assume that you also believe that OJ was innocent all along as well. He was found innocent of his actions and thus he too never did any of what he was accused of.... Right?

At least you leave no doubt about where you're coming from. First you compare Lance Armstrong to the biggest thief and embezzler in US history (the convicted felon Bernie Madoff) and now you compare him to a cold blooded murderer. You can get off your high horse concerning truth, integrity and honesty now. Everyone can pretty clearly see that those things aren't really what you're interested in.

Curt

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2012 - 04:10pm PT
It is apparent that neither you Ken nor healyje, personally experience nor partook in these types of strict operations.

I inadvertently did something 'wrong' my first few days on the Providence as a result of being clueless about boats, having attended an aviation boot camp at NAS Memphis. As a result I spent the entirety of '72 on the line six-on/six-off in a very active 5"/38 gun mount (where my hearing went) and usually spent one of my off sixes doing helo ops or flying photo recons looking for SAM sites. So yeah, I do actually know what I'm talking about. I spent '73 on the Blue Ridge assembling the daily intelligence brief presentations for the floating heads of the seventh fleet / inter-services taskforce as a very informally 'adopted' personal assistant to the commander who was the floating head of naval intelligence for the fleet.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Sep 1, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
F....the (drug) police. Whoa, did I say that? lynnie
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 1, 2012 - 04:15pm PT
OJ was found to be innocent... remember.

The judicial/legal system found Simpson not guilty, after a criminal trial. That system very rarely finds someone to be innocent, although a ruling of not guilty/acquittal, or a withdrawal of charges, may amount to that.

Simpson was found to be liable in a civil trial for damages for wrongful death, for the same events, and essentially bankrupted.

Simpson was found guilty in the court of public opinion.
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Sep 1, 2012 - 04:26pm PT
OJ was found to be innocent... remember.

Yes, but OJ actually had a fair trial in an impartial court. I didn't agree with the outcome, but I was satisfied with the process. In contrast, the Justice Department dropped their case against Lance Armstrong because there was insufficient evidence to proceed--the same reason French authorities dropped their earlier doping investigations of LA.

It is fairly clear to a number of people (me among them) that the so called "arbitration process" employed by the USADA is not inherently fair--and that those fighting USADA allegations have very little chance of prevailing because the standard of proof required for finding guilt is so low.

I don't know what the precise USADA arbitration standard for a finding of guilt is, but it is clearly less than the criminal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" and appears to be significantly less than even the normal civil standard of "preponderance of the evidence," particularly if the validity of actual blood test results can effectively be negated by mere witness testimony.

Curt

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 1, 2012 - 04:53pm PT
OJ was found to be innocent... remember.

Sheeit, maybe Paul Ryan (if he's not too tired from those sub 3-hour marathons) and Lance Armstrong should lynch OJ. Lets put some justice into the justice system.

Perhaps a self-lynching?
















Mary the Elephant, Lynched in Erwin, Tennessee, 13 September, 1916
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Sep 1, 2012 - 04:59pm PT
If anyone really reads why the USJD investigation was dropped, they will find out that all potentially incriminating incidents occurred on foreign non-US soil. Thus their jurisdiction was totally invalid and any charges brought on would not fly in any US Court.

That is completely false.

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2012/02/doj-armstrong.html

Then again, you seem to like stuff that is just made up.

Curt
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 1, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
from the cite above

Birotte did not offer a reason for closing the probe

Did anybody else offer up reasons?
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Sep 1, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
CURT: Ah, via your ref, please show where it clearly states "WHY" the USDJ/FDA dropped their investigation.

You can't. They never officially stated why it was dropped.

Correct. So you can't simply make some reason up--in spite of how much "common sense" you might think it makes.

Curt
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 1, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
Again, all these allegations occurred outside the US.

Did someone from the U.S. fly over and take notes?

If all of 'em occurred outside, why were they being investigated inside the U.S.?

Where is the list of allegers? Did they allege all the actions occurred outside the U.S.?
WBraun

climber
Sep 1, 2012 - 09:31pm PT
I just read this piece by Mike Anderson who was the personal assistant to Lance Armstrong for two years between 2002 and 2004.

Pretty damaging testimony by Anderson.

Holy sh!t if it's all true Armstrong is total toast and the Chief knew all along ......

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2196836/My-life-Lance-Armstrong-Personal-assistant-tells-steroids-cyclists-bathroom-cabinet-fired-year.html
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Sep 1, 2012 - 10:51pm PT
The Chief don't ride, Charlie don't surf.
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Sep 1, 2012 - 10:55pm PT
A very long awaited one at that. The more folks come out and tell their stories, the more this dude, LA, is looking like one sorry mean ass destructive dude to anyone that turned their backs on him, his "win at all any cost" antics and threatened to tell the truth.

1) Stories is probably exactly what they are.
2) The idea that "stories" should negate 500+ clean blood tests is absurd.
3) Even if LA is guilty of blood doping, stripping him of his 7 TDF titles and giving them to other TDF riders who were also doping makes absolutely no sense. That would do absolutely nothing to improve the credibility of the sport.

Curt
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 2, 2012 - 12:27am PT
It is apparent that neither you Ken nor healyje, personally experience nor partook in these types of strict operations. Thus your inability to comprehend and understand this philosophy.


Strict operations? compared with what I'm used to, you were involved with the sloppiest operations imaginable. Put it this way, 90% of the time, you are practicing and prancing to get ready for the real thing. 100% of the time, I'm doing the real thing. so you have about a 10% appreciation for what I do. Get off the high horse.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 2, 2012 - 12:31am PT
This most recent event when LA was getting his ass handed to him by his far stronger team mate and LA insisted that he cease doing so. This photo says it all the TDF after that event occurred...

Are you dense?

Cycling racing teams are ALSO heirarchies, just like the military. And just like there, people have roles to fill. Most of the riders are NOT there to win races, they are there to facilitate the leaders doing that.
They are paid to do that.

You cite an example of a rider not doing their job and being disciplined, as an example of someone being unstable.

Well, gosh, that would mean that a Chief disciplining a sailor for not doing their job on a team would be unstable too....YOU would be an EXPERT on instability, it seems!
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 2, 2012 - 12:41am PT
If anyone really reads why the USJD investigation was dropped, they will find out that all potentially incriminating incidents occurred on foreign non-US soil. Thus their jurisdiction was totally invalid and any charges brought on would not fly in any US Court.


Chief, is your argument so weak that you have to make up lies?

You obviously have no experience with the legal system. The US Dept of Justice does not empanel a Grand Jury, then issue subpoenas and take testimony on a situation in which they have no jurisdiction.

Are you kidding?

Of course, you know far more than CNN:

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/03/sport/lance-armstrong/index.html

Prosecutors called witnesses to a federal grand jury in Los Angeles as they investigated the case, but they apparently determined that they lacked evidence to bring a charge.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 2, 2012 - 12:43am PT
CURT: Ah, via your ref, please show where it clearly states "WHY" the USDJ/FDA dropped their investigation.

You can't. They never officially stated why it was dropped.


But YOU definitively stated why!

You can't have it both ways.
WBraun

climber
Sep 2, 2012 - 01:01am PT
Federal prosecutors dropped their doping charges against Armstrong just before the USADA filed its charges.

It is possible that the U.S. government dropped its criminal case in order to continue prosecution through the anti-doping agency, which is not governed by the same rules of law.

Although the agency is listed as a nonprofit organization, it receives 74 percent of its funding from the government and 26 percent from the U.S. Olympic Committee.

Unlike what federal prosecutors would face in court, the anti-doping agency doesn't have to show the accused the evidence it will have to defend itself against.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 2, 2012 - 01:18am PT
Riley,

This is why:

"Yesterday afternoon, the Associated Press published the first story detailing the contents of The Secret Race, the highly anticipated Lance Armstrong tell-all written by former U.S. Postal Service teammate Tyler Hamilton and longtime Outside contributing editor Daniel Coyle."

So the "objective" story that you posted was published by a magazine with a HUGE conflict of interest, and starts off by describing how OBJECTIVE readers found it a retread of Hamilton's charges.....then goes on to hype the book shamelessly.

c'mon.
GiveItToTheChief

Social climber
ButtBuddyVille
Sep 2, 2012 - 06:34am PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1916987&msg=1917358#msg1917358

This just in on "the Chief" beyond a shadow of a doubt witness testimony fresh this week!
steve shea

climber
Sep 2, 2012 - 11:54am PT
Any cycling enthusiasts who follow this stuff know about Levi's involvement? Did Levi cave or stay clean.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 2, 2012 - 12:12pm PT
This is a new medical record , a 10 day erection for Lance.....Talk about doping...! Somebody better come clean about abusing the ED medications...RJ
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 2, 2012 - 01:38pm PT
This is the first inside story I know of concerning how easily athletes beat dope testing and what they do to accomplish this goal.

You have to wonder how,

after having been indoctrinated and trained in all the techniques by the best dope test scofflaw of all time,

the tattlers managed to get caught by failing their tests.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 2, 2012 - 02:02pm PT
Ken my friend - You are at a disadvantage.
I don't think you have read all the articles and I am wondering if you have even read one of them? You are to smart to have these opinions and have read those articles.
An objective writer actually wrote that, although some writers and media outlets have played this down as a sort of retread, it is anything but that, and is instead a very honest detailed description of the day to day cheating, and how it was done over many years, unlike anything we have seen before.

But I don't take his word for it - the anecdotes, stories and facts from the story are a little mind blowing. It tells me for the first time how cheaters across all sports have so easily beat these tests for years.
How Marian Jones, Flo Jo, and Karl Lewis never tested positive as well as an endless line of other lying and arrogant cheaters.

One of the most remarkable tales of Armstrong is that the level of fraud and collusion was so high, between LA and the UCI, that Armstrong actually called the UCI on his own teammates and other riders if he felt they were challenging his empire.
Armstrong is one sick f*#k.
And yes - I cant stand bullies

Which all assumes that what is written is correct.

Note how you have been swayed by the character assassination of LA....your last paragraph demonstrates that your hatred colors your view.

But I did read the articles. In fact, the specific one that you singled out that I was referring to, written by the EDITOR of Outside, which is basically a publicity piece on the book.

I note that you don't disclose that the co-author has written 3 OTHER books on LA, also attacks. Perfect match for Hamilton, I'd say.

You might consider, if the issue of the drug stuff is so cut and dried, why all the dredging to smear every aspect of LA's life? I mean everything, including marriages?

It has the feel of a campaign that was orchestrated on the premise of "do what we say, or we will ruin your life."

Is this Russian Putin bringing the hammer down on Khodorkovsky?

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 2, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
^I believe I mentioned this before:

V E N D E T T A

Tour de Taco?

As long as we're wondering about things. Why is it we can tell there have
been 1,809,570 posts, but we can't see how many topics (threads) there are?


Was also wondering, does anybody know this guy?

saa

climber
not much of a
Sep 2, 2012 - 04:22pm PT
Somebody put Lance Armstrong on a rope. Come on: Dean, Alex, Hans, another?
And Kenny, perhaps another speaker at Facelift. It s a little late yes.
But admit that LA sleeping one week at Camp 4 would be, eeeeerrr, historical?

Sunbeam
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Sep 5, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
Well, so you guys think things get interesting on this forum...

Jonathon Vaughters, in the Clinic(doping discussions) forum on Cyclingnews basically admitted that several of his current Garmin team riders previously doped while at USPS. If he is willing to do that, actually naming riders and friends, and in one case giving some details, I can only guess that there is a lot of doping details that are going to come out real soon, and he was just trying to get ahead of it.
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Sep 5, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
Nah, I hate the guy...true... But it's because I see him for what he is...

Inferiority complex?

Listen dude, did you ever study the history of cycling and PE? Strychnine, cocaine, alcohol, caffeine, speed . . . its all been done before, long before the man you despise was even born! Get off your pathetic, self righteous crusade and learn something.

Oh, so Tyler Hamilton's book is going to set the record straight? What kind of pharmaceuticals are you abusing?
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Sep 9, 2012 - 10:33pm PT
I just read Tyler's book.

It is mandatory reading for all you yayhoos, Lance haters and Lanceophiles alike.

Doubt him if you wish naive ones.

From Outside Mag.
"What ultimately makes the book so damning, however, is that it doesn’t require readers to put their full faith in Hamilton’s word. In the book’s preface, which details its genesis, Coyle not so subtly addresses Armstrong’s supporters by pointing out that, while the story is told through Hamilton, nine former Postal teammates agreed to cooperate with him on The Secret Race, verifying and corroborating Hamilton’s account. Nine teammates. That fact is the first punch thrown at Armstrong’s supporters—and it might be the most damaging one. Next Wednesday, when The Secret Race comes out, backers will probably make the familiar claim that Hamilton is a disgruntled, bitter ex-rival who got popped for doping and is now looking to cash in. But that doesn’t explain why nine former teammates agreed to cooperate."
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 9, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
^Well, I'm at a disadvantage here, not having read the book. However, saying nine riders agreed to cooperate doesn't say much.

While I'm of the opinion that Lance Armstrong doped, why is he such big target, while others are not?

Are Hamilton, any of the nine, Contador banned from the Chicago Marathon?

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 10, 2012 - 12:41am PT
California senators are investigating USADA and its' case against LA....Sounds like USADA is getting some of its' own medicine...
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Sep 10, 2012 - 01:46am PT
The problem here is that you all can only see Lance as either "good" or "bad." Why can't Lance be a hero to the cancer community for all the work he has done to help fight the disease, but also be someone who used performance enhancing drugs during his career as a cyclist?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Sep 10, 2012 - 01:52am PT
Exactly Bruce. He did good for cancer and used enhancing drugs. The question we don't exactly know is if any top cyclist DIDN'T use drugs.

Cause if they all did, it's really not about Lance but the whole friggin sport eh?

Peace

Karl
Degaine

climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 03:06am PT
Riley wrote:
maybe his leaving his wife and kids was my first hint

I don't know Lance Armstrong, so don't know if he is an a-hole or not.

I do however know a lot of good people who went through crappy divorces, both with and without kids.

You just don't know the intimate details of a couple's life, and unless there were extreme circumstances (abuse, drugs, scientology, etc.) you just can't judge.
Degaine

climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 03:09am PT
Nice post, Bruce.

I'll add (though it has already been written) that if this investigation to impugn Lance Armstrong does not have the overall goal of punishing all those who used performance enhancing drugs during Lance's career and to clean up cycling as a whole, then all this is only a witch hunt, plain and simple.

Now that the other guys are coming forward, what are they doing at the lower echelons of cycling to clean up the sport?
Degaine

climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 03:38am PT
Riley wrote:
. I do however know a lot of good people who went through crappy divorces, both with and without kids.

Actually we do know the details - his personal assistant at the time, obviously just another deranged LA hater, writes a very honest account.

Ok, I sit corrected, you're an expert on Lance's relationship with his ex-wife and kids after reading a third-person account.

If you're okay with it, may I have your permission not to pass judgment on this aspect of Lance's life?

We're all saints and sinners at some point, when it comes to the intimate details of a divorce, only the couple knows everything and it's really none of our business.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 10, 2012 - 09:17am PT
The way and manner that he replied to Paul Kimmage (Irish cyclist and journalist), for me, does install the sense that Armstrong is indeed a bully. But a lot of 'celebs' are.

I agree with Karl, his work for cancer victims/research is to be admired, but the guy cheated as a cyclist, end of story (for me at least).

I will admire him on one level, but not on any other. And so what if the others cheated, did Armstrong really want to be the star and 'sports hero'? That he would go to lengths of doping. He was found out, and we will know more about that in the future.

Good for you Lance for your cancer foundation, boo to you for being a cheat ("but the others did it", I can hear him finally saying one day, if he is ever ashamed enough to admit it).

Have I ever achieved what he has? Nope, but I only did recreational drugs in the late 1960s- early 1980s, and they never helped me to be a better climber.

Didn't help me as a cycllist, didn't really help me at all. Thank gawd I never went for the needle, like one of my heroes (fictional) Sherlock Holmes.

"The needle to the last, eh, Holmes?" said Professor Moriarty. (Sherlock Holmes and the Secret Weapon, 1943).

Off topic, Basil Rathbone was the best at playing SH, IMO. Though I don't particlucarly like the way the directors had Nigel Bruce play Dr Watson, beinng a buffoon at times.

Oh, back on topic, Armstrong who? Neil, the polite and real American hero? Or my (one of them) anatomy and physiology professor, Lee Armstrong ("I would die happy know that I had one original thought")?
Degaine

climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:09am PT
Fair enough, Chief, but then by your definition no cyclist, current or past, has "balls", has character or has "manned up".

All those coming forward have proclaimed their innocence until forced to admit guilt.

I’ll ask the question again, why do you single out Lance instead of calling out all cyclists and all professional cycling organizations?

They’re all dirty to some extent or another, whether actively or passively.

I’ll also write it again, we’re all saints and we’re all sinners. I’ve witnessed in my short lifetime supposed cowards act as heroes, and people you could supposedly count on stab others in the back like nobody’s business.

It ain’t all black and white.
WBraun

climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:26am PT
Theory is if you get Lance and since he's guilty especially if all his own guys are outing him.

He's the top dog who according to all his team mates has been lying all these years and strong arming people to cover himself to boot.

He also used that position and his fame to make a lot of money.

In order to clean up something you need to get the real dirt first.

I think this is how the Chief sees it.

You guys just love to to make arguments and go after people yourselves here.

Anyways this is just my useless opinion.

Get a life people and focus on the subject matter and it's NOT about the "Chief" .....
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:35am PT
I say send in seal team six and put one in his head...!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:43am PT
Coz, Riley is a great guy but he ain't me, and for that he should be very happy. ;-)

I happen to agree with you.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:57am PT
OK, I will consider Lance a hero still if he comes completely clean, apologizes to all the kids who look up to him, AND gives all his ill-gotten earnings from over the years to his cancer institute. I hear they are looking for a bike mechanic at the local REI. He can start a local youth cycling league oh, and say 1000 Hail Marys.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Sep 10, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
What is starting to emerge is LA as a man who is cynical beyond measure. There are people in this world who admire such a personality.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Sep 10, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
So will they strip Eddy Merckx of his titles, too? It seems they have more evidence against The Cannibal than they do Armstrong.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 10, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
Lance Armstrong is smart, but not smart enough.

If he'd really been thinking, he'd have renounced his U.S. citizenship (like the Facebook guy) and "based" himself (ha) in the Cayman Islands. Lots of benefits from that strategy.

Whoops, well maybe not the Caymans

Police in the Cayman Islands rigorously enforce laws against illegal drugs. U.S. citizens should avoid buying, selling, holding or taking illegal drugs under any ...

But then, maybe not, doesn't say what they do about non-U.S. citizens.

hb81

climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 03:55pm PT
BTW: They have NO evidence on EM. They had no doping controls/restrictions during his tenure. None. At least EM had the balls to come out and confess his usage.

Thats just flat out wrong. They started testing mid 60s.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Sep 10, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
When I think about him, I think about him getting his first wife to artificially conceive, a process she was un-enthusiastic about. Then when the house is filled with crying babies he tells her that he can't train with all the distraction, dumps her and the kids. Of course, she didn't get much financially.

That's how important "family" is to the guy. Nothing matters more than winning, definately not his wife(s) and kids.

He's a bad guy, at least according to a couple of the "ex's".
Dolomite

climber
Anchorage
Sep 10, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
If there were no rules, or no consequences (whichever) in Eddie's day, then it took no balls to admit to anything.
Gary

climber
"My god - it's full of stars!"
Sep 10, 2012 - 06:04pm PT
So will they strip Eddy Merckx of his titles, too? It seems they have more evidence against The Cannibal than they do Armstrong.

Really?

Got a ref.

BTW: They have NO evidence on EM. They had no doping controls/restrictions during his tenure. None. At least EM had the balls to come out and confess his usage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_Merckx

Merckx has condemned doping but he tested positive three times.[4] The first time was in the 1969 Giro d'Italia[6] where he tested positive for the stimulant Reactivan at Savona, after leading the race through 16 stages. He was expelled from the Giro...

...Merckx was also found positive after winning the Giro di Lombardia in 1973.[6] He had taken Mucantil (Iodinated glycerol)...

...Then he was caught after taking Stimul (pemoline) in the 1977 Flèche Wallonne. Merckx said:

"That, I can't deny. I was positive along with around 15 others. I was wrong to trust a doctor."[6]

In 1974, a Belgian biochemist, Professor Michel Debackere, perfected a test for a group of piperidine stimulant drugs (Lidepran, Meratran, and Ritalin) which were used by pro cyclists. Since they were now detectable, this group of drugs fell out of favor within the pro peloton, and some riders instead used pemoline, another amphetamine-like drug. Then in 1977, Debackere once again developed a new drug test, which could detect pemoline. This test caught three of the biggest names in Belgium: Merckx, Freddy Maertens and Michel Pollentier...

In the 1990s, he became a friend of Lance Armstrong, and supported him when Armstrong was accused of drug use, stating he rather "believed what Lance told him than what appeared in newspapers".
Binks

climber
Uranus
Sep 10, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
Lance still won those tours. If not, then nobody won them.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 10, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Lance sounds like a bastard...? But i am witholding judgement just in case i get invited to his ranch...RJ
stilltrying

Trad climber
washington indiana
Sep 10, 2012 - 08:38pm PT
Cheryl Crow spoke highly of Lance today. Class act that Lady. Nice to see/hear someone be respectful of an ex lover for a change. She also mentioned how hard he worked for his foundation and he has raised $500 Million for Cancer. No person is one thing or another, we are all some good and some bad. The ones that think they are not are the ones with a problem.Interesting how the media swoons over Big George and gave him such a honorable send off. Guess Lance's chief collaborator in all his TDF titles did not notice anything or was not bothered by any questionable activities until the FEDS show up. They just like George's personality more I guess. The idea that the U.S. Goverment should be involved in sports issues is lunacy. Give me my taxes back so I can use it for something worthwhile.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 10, 2012 - 08:58pm PT
Actually we do know the details - his personal assistant at the time, obviously just another deranged LA hater, writes a very honest account.

You mean the pig who was hired to provide confidential assistance, who now is attempting to get even with LA by spilling what he wants to say about their relationship.

I read the words this hack wrote. Hateful spite.

What else do you need to know about a man hired to do something confidential, and who then has the lack of integrity to try to cash it in.

Plus, Riley, I'm sure if we find whoever it is who really hates you (and you have them), and published their thoughts on you and your relationships, you'd be a proud puppy.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 10, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
Police in the Cayman Islands rigorously enforce laws against illegal drugs. U.S. citizens should avoid buying, selling, holding or taking illegal drugs under any ...


But then, maybe not, doesn't say what they do about non-U.S. citizens.


Note, many of the drugs not allowed in competition are PERFECTLY LEGAL DRUGS for anyone else to have and use, under certain circumstances.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 10, 2012 - 09:09pm PT
Gary,

Blood Doping is not Drug use.

Sorry. A whole different and far more dangerous animal.

EDIT: Gary, get and read Tyler's book to get a glimpse of the dire danger involved in the practice of blood doping.

Blood doping IS drug use.

EDIT: Gary get medical information from medical people, not washed-up cheating bike riders, or washed-up sailors.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Sep 10, 2012 - 10:39pm PT
Chief, "blood doping" could mean any number of different things, including as you mentioned, transfusions, but also things like EPO and Aranesp, that are definitely drugs.And yes they can be dangerous, but so can other forms of doping. Google Tom Simpson if you want an example.
And while I have a tremendous amount of respect for Eddy Merckx, as he was a far greater champion than Lance, it is pretty clear that he doped, and he is still a strong supporter of Lance.
For that matter Jacques Anquetil, one of the other 5 time winners admitted to doping and said almost everyone did it.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:16pm PT
Chief...so it's okay for you to use the blood doping technique and not Lance...? Now i hate you...
WBraun

climber
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:33pm PT
Autologous doping combat soldier fights for his life = zero money winnings.

Lance Armstrong blood doping winning TDF = 450,000 euros plus money from all the sponsors. (Millions)

You still think it's the same?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
WBRaun...I think they are the same..Money has no influence on the warrior spirit and money is useless in both worlds...
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
The money in bicycle racing pales compared to say zum Beispiel (z.B.) the money in professional football and baseball and basketball. Yet, players are being "caught" in all three sports. I'd say Lance Armstrong could make more money as a doping consultant to the stars, than he ever made riding his bike.

Do the math, or as Ramblin' Willie Clinton says, "the arithmetic".

Not to unnecessarily exacerbate the confusiion in an already confused issue, but what is the likelihood that al qaeda (must confess, I had to look up the spelling on that one) autologously dopes?

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
F*#k Lance....he cheated, they all probably cheated, but he did it with a special kind of arrogance and sense of entitlement that I, for one, find especially nauseous.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:48pm PT
Chief...I'm pulling your leg for christ's sake...It would be interesting to have your blood cells stimulated though....I have to agree with Ken M's remarks about Lance's gofer spilling the frijoles though...The guy should have stayed quiet...I have a friend who worked for Eddy B. and the same thing happened without much money being involved...Eddy promised this and that and when the cash was all spent , my friend didn't get sh#t...Not even a suburu montgomery cycling cap...My friend worked on Lance come to think of it...
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 10, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
Well I was following right along until:

but he did it with a special kind of arrogance and sense of entitlement

I don't choose to keep up with all this, but what is your conclusion based upon?

My take is that folks who reach up into the upper echelons of accomplishment are usually a bit cocky. It's a fine line as to what is too cocky.

Did Babe Ruth really point where the ball was going before he hit that home run? Did John Bachar really issue that climbing challenge? Did Wilt Chamberlain really have all that sex (and how many were white girls?)?

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:03am PT
The key word is "special," and you are right that arrogance and sense of entitlement are common failings with great atheletes....dosen't make it okay. Then again there are people like Chris Sharma and Roberto Clemente.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:04am PT
Zbrown...Did wilt really have sex with all those women...? Is the pope catholic...?
WBraun

climber
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:05am PT
And Jim Donini a fine man in the upper echelon also .....
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:29am PT
From what I've read Mr. Donini is probably in the upper, upper echelon and on the "good" side of that slender cockiness line, but:

I'm still wondering where the "arrogance" tag is coming from. Like I said, I'm not keeping up, but is all this from the Hamilton book?

Maybe "cocky" isn't a good word for Wilt, but he was quite boastfull. I met him briefly once and he was a very friendly, personable guy. I think someone else on the ST did also and says the same. As far as religion goes, I don't know.

rj: Well I do know one that he didn't have sex with. When he tried to hit on her, she ran.

Gary

Social climber
Monza by the streetlight
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:51am PT
You still don't get the concept that the DOD is NOT a democracy do you.

You do what you are ordered to do. No choice in that matter after one signs on the dotted line.

Wait a dang minute. In another thread you said the Navy was an anarchist organization. Which is it?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 11, 2012 - 12:57am PT
Zbrown...Wilt wasn't cocky personality -wise but the term all men aren't created equal definitely applied to wilt's stature in more ways than one...I know this from being in the Laker locker room...RJ
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 11, 2012 - 01:08am PT
Extraction and reintroduction of one's own blood (autologous blood doping) taken at different intervals of training IS NOT one bit considered drug use. Perfecting the timing of reintroduction at the competition level will boost ones ability to perform far more effortlessly at peak levels of competition.


This is a technique I was trained in THIRTY YEARS AGO. It is DEFINITELY drug use. It requires a medical license to order, and to purchase the equipment. If someone has a reaction, you have to fill out a DRUG REACTION report.

You may not think of it that way, BUT YOU AINT IN THE NAVY, here.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Sep 11, 2012 - 08:48am PT
Nick D, I have not read anything about Armstrong except in the newspapers, magazines, online etc. But journalists can distort the truth (I have been asked to and only did on one occasion, to write a positive article about tobacco, and I am anti-smoking). I needed the money. I am a whore hack.

But if your post about his first wife is true, then I will NEVER ever respect or admire this guy.

Now, I suppose, before I become too judgmental, I should seek out more facts.

Neil Armstrong was a hero.

My former A&P prof, Lee Armstrong, brilliant.

Lance Armstrong? Comes across as arrogant (and "I fought cancer give me a break") and false, from the interviews I have seen and read.

I lost my closest brother to cancer on May 18, my sister to breast cancer last year. Okay, Lance Armstrong created a cancer foundation, one of many. But his cynicism reeks.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Sep 13, 2012 - 03:44am PT
back when men were men and no one wore helmets or doped (?)

nice vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sziZ6PejrfM&feature=player_embedded
Gary

Social climber
Monza by the streetlight
Sep 13, 2012 - 08:56am PT
Oh, they doped all right. BTW, the Tour website still lists Armstrong's wins.

A Sunday in Hell
[Click to View YouTube Video]
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Sep 13, 2012 - 10:34am PT
World Anti-Doping Agency director-general David Howman has welcomed a new test for human growth hormone. The test was approved by WADA prior to the Olympic Games and was used to catch two athletes at the recent Paralympics. Speaking to Cyclingnews,

“It’s a significant step forward,” Howman said when discussing the finalisation of a human growth hormone test. Although still in its infancy, the ability to test for HGH is a major stepping stone in the fight against doping. Originally funded by the IOC in the late 90s, WADA took up leadership in the development of the test in the mid-2000s.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/howman-welcomes-hgh-test-talks-hamilton-and-uci
Dolomite

climber
Anchorage
Sep 13, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
This is mostly about Roger Clemens, but bounces off LA. A little different perspective than the ones we've been batting around (baseball pun, doh) here:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8368975/roger-clemens-cheated-why-celebration
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 13, 2012 - 10:19pm PT
Does anyone recall that very dramatic increases in HGH can be obtained by exercising, lifting weights etc. on vibrating platforms?

I'll try to find the references, but it raises an interesting issue as to whether or not it should be permitted.

Well there are a whole sheeitload of people selling them, so they probably don't work.

However,


Hormonal Responses to Whole Body Vibration in Men
C. Bosco, M. Iacovelli, O. Tsarpela, M. Cardinale, M. Bonifazi, J. Tihanyi, M. Viru,
A. De Lorenzo, A. Viru
This study, conducted at Rome University and published in the European Journal of Applied Physiology (1999) measure whole body vibration’s effect on the production of key hormones testosterone, human growth hormone (HGH) and cortisol. The study consisted of performing jumping and mechanical testing together with EMG analysis of leg extensor muscles as well as blood data collection before and immediately following 10-minute sessions of whole body vibration treatment. The group experienced substantial increases in the production of testosterone and HGH, while also llustrating equally substantial decreases in production of the inhibiting hormone cortisol.

Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Sep 13, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrong-continues-to-compete-despite-ban
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Sep 13, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
Thanks Gary for the archival footage . . . those guys were riding in way more heinous conditions than modern day riders. Talk about bad ass motherf*#kers! All these Lance haters cannot fathom the suffering involved in professional cycling. It is no wonder PE is and has been so prevalent. In what other sport do athletes have to perform daily for weeks on end?

Get out there and move your non-doping asses!
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Sep 20, 2012 - 11:24pm PT
I leant my book to Dr. F.

Everyone who (Lanceophiles and Lanceophobes) weighs in on anything related to bike racing needs to stfu before reading it.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:29am PT
Hey Jebus, aren't you a myth?
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 21, 2012 - 12:32am PT
dee ee are you distributing copies of the book?

Lance air-riffing on Cocaine with Slowhand?
Lance after syringe exploded in right arm?
Lance simulating French journalists getting off to TDF stripping?




dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Sep 22, 2012 - 12:15am PT
Free copies to all!!! Whee hoo!!!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 22, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
How can USADA take away Lance's 7 titles years later when they didn't award him the TDF titles..?
WBraun

climber
Sep 22, 2012 - 05:35pm PT
How can they take them away.

Simple

By proxy.

They tell whoever awarded those titles to take them away from Lance.

If they tell USADA to fuk off then the titles remain in effect.
FRUMY

Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
Sep 22, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
Today - UCI chief questions USADA delay on Armstrong file.
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 23, 2012 - 09:14am PT
VALKENBURG, Netherlands — The chief of world cycling’s governing body is questioning why American anti-doping authorities have not sent him the file of evidence that prompted them to erase Lance Armstrong’s seven Tour de France titles and ban him for life. International Cycling Union President Pat McQuaid on Saturday said the United States Anti-Doping Agency had not given the UCI a date to expect the details, and he sounded impatient to receive them.

“UCI assumes that USADA have the file, the full file, as they’ve already made a decision based on it and therefore it’s difficult to understand why it hasn’t arrived yet,” McQuaid said from the Road Cycling World Championships in the southern Netherlands.
Fletcher

Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
Sep 23, 2012 - 12:33pm PT
The UCI is the machine that had a large part in enabling the doping. Or looking other way.

It seems that people who are involved in pro cycling or follow the sport at least somewhat closely are not at all surprised by all of this but that who don't follow the sport much or simply are aware of LA as a celebrity are the ones doing a lot of defending.

Here is another perspective from someone who worked closely with the one who's name shall not be spoken:

My Life with Lance Armstong

Eric
knudeNoggin

climber
Falls Church, VA
Sep 24, 2012 - 12:47am PT
When I think about him, I think about him getting his first wife to artificially conceive, a process she was un-enthusiastic about. Then when the house is filled with crying babies he tells her that he can't train with all the distraction, dumps her and the kids. Of course, she didn't get much financially.

I wondered how their marriage came to an end,
and Google brought me (IIRC) >>her<< interview
with Oprah. Whatever it was, the thrust from her
stated perspective was more that SHE wasn't ready
for the sort of relationship that was needed, about
her not making her own needs important in the family
plans. She said nothing to support the assertion made
above. So, barring some evidence to the contrary,
I don't see the divorce as a particularly sharp charge
against Lance --who, I think, works to be a part of
his kids' upbringing.

Otherwise, on the others' --former teammates & staff &
competitors-- charges, I find it hard to believe that these
folks would suffer being on the wrong side of the Lance
machine, and to engage in all this hassle, if they were
making things up (which risks being exposed), et cetera.


*kN*
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Sep 27, 2012 - 01:55pm PT
From Cyclingnews



UCI questions USADA on Armstrong file delay

By: Laura Weislo Published: September 27, 17:23, Updated: September 27,

UCI president Pat McQuaid answers a question during a press conference held during the UCI road world championships in Valkenburg.


Source says evidence is still coming in

As tensions ahead of the release of the US Anti-Doping Agency's (USADA) file of evidence on the Lance Armstrong and US Postal Service Team doping conspiracy has grown to a peak, the UCI has issued a public statement from president Pat McQuaid questioning why the dossier of information has yet to land on his desk.

The USADA stated earlier this week that the file, which had been expected to be sent to the UCI and the World Anti-Doping Agency by the end of September, would now be provided no later than October 15.

McQuaid made his impatience known today, stating, "It is over a month since USADA sanctioned Lance Armstrong. We thought that USADA were better prepared before initiating these proceedings."

A source close to the case told Cyclingnews Wednesday that "information kept coming in, hence, the delay in getting the dossier to the UCI." USADA would not comment when asked if they were still gathering evidence.

The UCI reiterated this information in the press release, stating, "Reports state that its decision has been delayed because it is continuing to gather evidence and that it has yet to complete its case file."

McQuaid expressed his anxiety over the lack of finality. "The UCI had no reason to assume that a full case file did not exist but USADA's continued failure to produce the decision is now a cause for concern.

"It is at very least unusual that USADA would still be gathering evidence against a person after it has found that person guilty."

The president then suggested, "It seems that it would have been more useful for USADA to have used the time of the Tour de France, the Olympic Games and the Road World Championships to prepare their case in full rather than to make announcements."

Insinuating that the USADA was having "difficulty in putting the evidence together", McQuaid also claimed they only learned of the delay through the media "and not by any official communication from USADA".

However, Cyclingnews understands that USADA and the UCI have been in contact as recently as last week.

"It is not surprising that UCI would send a press release out attempting to undermine and question the substance of our case," USADA CEO Travis Tygart stated. "It is also troubling that they would claim to have had no contact with us which is inaccurate. As they know we will be providing them the 'reasoned decision' no later than October 15 through the process and at that time the questions contained in their publicly released statement today will be answered."

The UCI stated this week that it would uphold the lifetime ban of Armstrong and disqualification of his results back to August 1998 if, when it gets the dossier, it determines that the USADA had followed all applicable rules in coming to the decision.






Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed

graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 27, 2012 - 03:43pm PT
The Chief's thread title is incorrect, libelous even.

Lance Armstrong did not "accept" any ban or loss of the Tour de France title. Those are not things that he agrees to. They are being imposed on him by the USADA.

Except the USADA doesn't have any authority to revoke Tour de France titles, any more than the California DMV can revoke a French driver's license issued to you in Paris.

Lance simply realized that he's being tooled. He can spend millions fighting the USADA and he'll still lose, even if he's innocent, because they're playing with a stacked deck.

Read the press release in the post above. The Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI) (English: International Cycling Union) is the world governing body for sports cycling and oversees international competitive cycling events.

If they have no confidence in the USADA, why should Lance have any? Why should we have any?
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Sep 27, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
Actually, USADA has the right to revoke his titles and the UCI is bound to accept it under WADA rules. The UCI is sh*ting bricks right now because they are about to be fully exposed as a corrupt organization. The UCI is to cycling as Bud Selig was to baseball during the steroid era.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 27, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) chief John Fahey has said Armstrong's decision not to contest the allegations added up to nothing more than an admission of guilt.

"He had the right to rip up those charges, but he elected not to. Therefore the only interpretation in these circumstances is that there was substance in those charges," Fahey said.

WADA thinks that you are guilty until you prove yourself innocent. This is not how it works in the USA.

Lance Armstrong never admitted guilt What he said:

“There comes a point in every man’s life when he has to say, ‘Enough is enough.’ For me, that time is now,” Armstrong said in a statement Thursday night.

Armstrong called the USADA investigation an “unconstitutional witch hunt” and said he saw no reason to participate in any further proceedings that might clear his name.

“If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA’s process, I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and — once and for all — put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance,” Armstrong said. “But I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair.


Tracee Hamilton:

Who, and what, are we supposed to believe? And if we, like Armstrong, just want to give up, are we guilty of something as well? Apathy? A double standard? Drug use?

For me, if you take personalities out of the equation, you’re left with pee in a cup and blood in a syringe. Armstrong never failed a drug test. He was tested in competition, out of competition. He was tested at the Olympics, at the Tour de France, at dozens if not hundreds of other events. And he never failed a test. We know this because if he had, Travis T. Tygart, the head of USADA, would have personally delivered the results to every home in America, like a grim little Santa Claus.

Instead, Tygart gathered a group of people who swear they saw Armstrong doping. There has been no trial, no due process, but in the minds of many, that testimony outweighs the results of hundreds of drug tests.

People lie. Blood and urine usually don’t. And if they do, they don’t lie 500 times. People do. Some lie that many times in a week. But okay. Let’s assume these people really are witnesses, let’s assume they’re telling the truth, and then let’s assume that their testimony is the new standard, outweighing all drug test results.

Then what in the world is the point of drug testing? In any sport, by any group, at any level of competition? If the results can be discarded in favor of testimony, then let’s go right to the testimony phase and quit horsing around with blood and urine. The cheaters are always ahead of USADA and its brethren anyway. They have deeper pockets and better doctors. So let’s toss out the baby with the blood and urine bath water and just call in witnesses who will recount all the bad things they saw their fellow competitors do. What in the world could possibly be wrong with that system?

I don’t know if Armstrong did the things he’s accused of doing, and neither do you. I don’t know if these witnesses are telling the truth, and neither do you. I do know two things: First, he passed all his tests. And second, if he had failed a drug test, and brought in 10 people to testify that they were with him every minute of every day leading up to the test and he never ingested anything, never injected anything, never doped his blood, would we be having this debate today? No, because he would have failed a drug test, and all the testimony in the world wouldn’t matter.

It can’t work both ways. Either a drug test is the standard, or it isn’t. A lot of athletes must be wondering the point of going through testing if they can be taken down anyway, regardless of the results, even years after the fact.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Sep 27, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
yes The Chief who valiantly defended americas freedoms doesnt want to give Lance his own right to due process. "lets hang the mofo!"
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 27, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
USADA is again delaying providing any justification to the UCI, and now says that they will provide it by October 15.

In other news today, Lance Armstrong is going on with his life and doing fine. Some organizations are de-certifying rather than banning him.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390443916104578020514003260282.html

Triathlons Part Waters for Armstrong
Despite a Doping Ban, His Presence Sends Enrollments Soaring

Lance Armstrong is banned from competitions sanctioned by Olympic governing bodies—part of his punishment for deciding last month not to fight charges that he engaged in doping as a professional cyclist. But Armstrong remains more than America's most famous endurance athlete. He is its only famous endurance athlete.

So when he seeks to compete in a triathlon—a sport whose popularity ranks far below that of, say, bass fishing—his magnetism makes an unthinkable question suddenly thinkable: Does the number of extra enrollments he brings to an event outweigh the loss of certification by USA Triathlon?

Faced with that very question this month was the Half Full Triathlon in Maryland. For two years running, it had boasted USAT certification, a distinction that lowers insurance rates while offering professionals a chance to boost their international rankings.

But when presented with a recent race request from Armstrong, Half Full for this year decided to sacrifice its USAT certification. And it paid off. After announcing last Thursday that Armstrong would participate in the Oct. 7 race, enrollment jumped 20%, said race executive Brian Satola.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 27, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
yes The Chief who valiantly defended americas freedoms doesnt want to give Lance his own right to due process. "lets hang the mofo!"

The Chief was never "a Chief. He gets his title from being a career Chief Petty Officer in the Navy. He should use "Petty Chief."

Look up "petty" in the dictionary. It fits.

pet·ty (pt)
adj. pet·ti·er, pet·ti·est
1. Of small importance; trivial: a petty grievance.
2. Marked by narrowness of mind, ideas, or views.
3. Marked by meanness or lack of generosity, especially in trifling matters.
4. Secondary in importance or rank; subordinate. See Synonyms at trivial.
5. Law Variant of petit.
[Middle English peti, from Old French, variant of petit; see petit.]
petti·ly adv.
petti·ness n.
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition

I don't know whether Armstrong is guilty or not, but it's obvious to me that the USADA is a large unaccountable organization with a vendetta and is trying to steamroller him.

They're being asked to explain their decision, and they're not able to do so. I don't think they have any practice in that--because they normally don't have to.

"The UCI had no reason to assume that a full case file did not exist but USADA's continued failure to produce the decision is now a cause for concern," Pat McQuaid, the president of cycling's governing body, said in a statement on Thursday.

"It is over a month since USADA sanctioned Lance Armstrong. We thought that USADA were better prepared before initiating these proceedings," he added.

McQuaid had previously said he had no intention of contesting USADA's decision, unless the UCI was given serious reasons to do so.

The UCI noted in its statement that reports were suggesting USADA was still gathering evidence and has yet to complete its case file.

It seems that under the WADA rules, the USADA is responsbible for sending its "reasoned decision" to the UCI. The USADA is not been able to do that.

Since they announced their decision over a month ago, it is strange that they don't have a decision to forward and are now saying they won't until up to October 15.


UCI:

It is at very least unusual that USADA would still be gathering evidence against a person after it has found that person guilty. The UCI assumes that the reasons for any difficulty in putting the evidence together will be explained in USADA’s decision.”


Predictably the USADA responded quickly with accusations and name-calling directed at the UCI.

My advice to them would be to just shut up and deliver their decision. I hope it's made public so everyone can read it.
Banks

Trad climber
Santa Monica, CA
Sep 27, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
1) Passing 500 tests when the tests are not good enough and/or are not even looking for the right drugs/evidence does not mean a person was not doping. Just a couple of examples- Marion Jones tested clean 200 times while doping. Bernhard Kohl(3rd place 2008 TDF)-"I was tested 200 times during my career, and 100 times I had drugs in my body. I was caught but 99 times I wasn't. Riders think they can get away with doping because most of the time they do"

2)Lance tested positive for cortisone in '99 and in a later investigation his blood samples from that year tested positive EPO. In 2001, tested positive for EPO at the Tour of Switzerland. Tygart will present these as part of his evidence.

3)USADA has said more evidence is pouring in and that is the reason for the delay. Nothing wrong with that.

Again, the UCI was a sham of an organization and allowed lots of shady things to go on. They are sh*ting bricks right now. It will not look good.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 28, 2012 - 12:21am PT
Why aren't there five-hundred-post threads on the other dopers?

Keith Richards has taken more dope than anybody and had more transfusions.

I'm gonna strip him and make him an Ex Rolling Stone. Thankfully Brian Jones just died and spared everyone all this bullsheeit.
WBraun

climber
Sep 28, 2012 - 12:28am PT
Burchey -- "LA has ZERO affect on my life."

Oh bulls!t.

It's so easy to run your mouth into your foot.

If it has zero effect then you would never have said one word about it .....
WBraun

climber
Sep 28, 2012 - 12:44am PT
It's not about lance or any of that.

Again .....

If it has zero effect then you would never have said one word about it.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 28, 2012 - 01:36am PT
Go ahead and take away Lances 7 TDF titles USADA , UCi , and The Chief...I doubt you will find any freak on this planet that could have beat Lance drugged or not drugged....Get on your bikes and take EPO and go out and beat Lance...Put your mouth where the foot meets the pedal...
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 28, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
LA is going down.... hard.

When his boss Johan has his day in front of USADA, the testimonies will become public and LA's true behavior and persona will come out.

Game over.



Just like the rest of them roiders, juicers, cheaters in the modern world of sports.

And because its NOT pubic, how do you know what Lance Armstrong's "tue behavior and persona" is? I don't and I don't think you do either.

On the other hand, I think I have a pretty good grasp of your "behavior and persona" on this board, Chief Petty. Petty all the way through.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Sep 28, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
The Curious Use of Language in the Lance Armstrong Decision

Dr. Keith Devlin

Did Lance Armstrong dope or use blood transfusions during his professional cycling career? I have no idea. Nor, it appears, does anyone else except for Lance and perhaps a few members of his team. But as a mathematician with expertise in the use of language in reasoning, I find the much-touted central pillar of the United States Anti-Doping Agency's case against him does not stand up to even a cursory examination.

Apart from hearsay evidence from two disgraced former cycling teammates of Armstrong, the USADA bases its case (at least according to what they have said) on the blood and urine samples taken from the cyclist in 2009 and 2010, when he made a brief comeback to the sport after four years in retirement. In a June letter to Armstrong, subsequently made public, the USADA said those samples were "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."

Though a recreational cyclist, my interest in this case is fairly minimal. It is that term "fully consistent with" that piqued my mathematician's interest. It is a very odd phrase to use in a situation like this, not least because it has absolutely no evidentiary force. It says nothing of any significance.

[Certainly, after two years deliberation, including testimony from former team-mates obtained under oath through a grand jury, the U.S. federal criminal investigation of the allegations made against him finally dropped the case early this year, saying there was no real evidence against him.]

Though the layperson typically thinks of mathematicians as being focused on numbers, that is actually not the case. That false view is a consequence of the mathematics taught in high school. Only at university are you likely to encounter the mathematics done by the professionals. High among our real areas of expertise are logical reasoning, rigorous proof, and the precise use of language.

Incidentally, I am not referring here to using language and reasoning precisely in esoteric discussions of arcane mathematical topics. Yes, we do that too. But we also apply our expertise in everyday, practical domains. (Homeland Security, to name one domain I myself have worked on.)

There are a number of terms we use to describe evidence. The strongest is "proof" (or "conclusive proof", but any mathematician will tell you the adjective is superfluous.) We might say that, "Evidence X proves that Y happened."

An alternative that might seem weaker, but in actuality is not, is that "Evidence X implies that Y happened."

Definitely weaker, is "Evidence X suggests (or indicates) that Y happened."

All of these have evidentiary power of differing degrees. And there are others.

At the other end of the spectrum, we can say, "Evidence X contradicts Y having happened." X proves Y did not occur.

Evidence collected to uncover wrong-doing, such as doping controls in sport, by virtue of their design, rarely (if at all) provide proof of innocence. At best, when a doping test does not come up positive, the most you can say is it did not yield proof. It does not rule out (i.e., does not contradict) doping, just as a negative result from a cancer screening does not mean you are cancer free, merely that the test did not detect any cancer.

So what does that USADA term "fully consistent with" mean? Well, first of all, let's drop the "fully"; it's superfluous. Consistency is a definitive term. Something is either consistent or not; no half measures. It's also a term mathematicians like myself are very familiar with -- again for real world uses as much if not more than within theoretical mathematics. It means "does not contradict". Nothing more, nothing less.

Given the availability of terms such as "proves," "indicates," "suggests," or more evocative terms such as "raises the distinct possibility that," why did the USADA decide to use the curious term "consistent with"? Since they surely spent a lot of time, and consulted with a number of lawyers, in drafting their letter, their choice of wording was clearly deliberate. Why choose a term that means "does not contradict"?

After all, I can say "Drinking milk as a child is (fully) consistent with using crack cocaine as an adult." Should we take that as evidence that milk producers are to blame for adult drug use? Of course not. But this example has exactly the same logical heart, and the same evidentiary force, as the USADA letter's "fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood transfusions."

Why not say "suggest" or "indicates"? They fall well short of "proof", but they do carry some weight.

"Does not contradict" is, then, it appears, a key part of their case against Armstrong. In which case, I find it troubling. The USA should have far higher standards of proof than that.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Sep 28, 2012 - 05:31pm PT
First, he passed all his tests. And second, if he had failed a drug test, and brought in 10 people to testify that they were with him every minute of every day leading up to the test and he never ingested anything, never injected anything, never doped his blood, would we be having this debate today? No, because he would have failed a drug test, and all the testimony in the world wouldn’t matter.

It can’t work both ways. Either a drug test is the standard, or it isn’t.
ß Î Ø T Ç H

Boulder climber
bouldering
Sep 28, 2012 - 06:53pm PT
I can spot a small man in a split second, and call him out.
... and if needs be - dick slap him into submission.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 29, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
Mr. Armstrong is doing a triathlon in San Diego this weekend.

Opinions vary.

Why does the treatment of O-ffenders vary so much?



climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Sep 29, 2012 - 11:06pm PT
granstar

Social climber
Irving, TX
Sep 30, 2012 - 01:10am PT
Hi Chief! Good to see you are still on here. This is first time I've been on in quite a while and was hoping to see some familiar faces. Hope you are well. Yeah such a sad story and know like most everyone else was hoping he did things the right way and was clean, but unfortunately doesn't look that way now. That is definitely a huge blow to cycling with so many of the other big names like Contador getting caught also. I would say my interest in watching or following has definitely dropped.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Sep 30, 2012 - 11:56am PT
I think it can only be good for racing and my interest hasn't dropped.

You can't clean up the sport by ignoring the problems.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Sep 30, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
On March 17th, 2009, LA returned from a training ride in the South of France to find a lab tech waiting for him to give samples for testing. Armstrong refused and had his bodyguards hold the guy outside of his house while he went inside to "take a shower".

He emerged from the house 20+ minutes later and gave the samples. By rule, the subject is not allowed to leave the testers sight before giving the samples. Failure to comply immediately is considered a failed test. Armstrong and his hired goons claimed afterwards the the tester "gave him permission" to shower. The tester claimed otherwise, and of course he would not have done such a thing. Why would he fail to follow his duties as put forth in his job description?

And what was LA doing? Getting clean urine catheterized into his bladder? Masking injections? Only he knows and he won't tell (the truth) anyway.

This tester was from the French anti-doping agency and after a little hemming and hawing the UCI declined to take action against LA. Little wonder the WADA doesn't trust them.

This is just one of the times that LA failed a test, putting the lie to "never tested positive". The tactic of just shouting your lie over and over, louder and louder only works on stupid people.

It strikes me that LA is like the Tea Party candidates to whom facts don't matter, and he appeals to roughly the same crowd. There is no use arguing with those who dont care about facts, Their "minds" are made up.

The thing I find most incredible about LA is that after giving himself cancer and getting a second chance he went right back to doping. How could he be that stupid? He got a miracle once, so now he must think it's his birthright.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Sep 30, 2012 - 10:29pm PT
nick d
Old news but true.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Sep 30, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
Indurain sounds suspicious, he's still stuck in the past. He's still under the spell of the "omerta."

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/09/news/miguel-indurain-the-image-of-cycling-is-being-ruined_239373

David Millar calling the UCI complicite (sp?).Oops, lost that link. Edit. OK here it is.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/09/news/millar-uci-should-own-up-to-cyclings-doping-past_239502

Vaughters was there as well. He knows all. He cares about the future of cycling.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/09/news/vaughters-outs-garmin-riders-for-past-doping-in-online-forum_237650
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Sep 30, 2012 - 10:52pm PT
The article in the recent Bicycling Magazine really poses the critical question for those who care about the sport.
"Now What?"

You naive ones need to catch up.
StevenStrong

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 30, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
I just went down to Santa Rose to ride in Levi's GrandFondo, my first time. It was an incredible event and the quality of the riders participating in the event was really amazing. There's a lot of good happening in cycling behind all the doping noise.

Steve
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Oct 1, 2012 - 12:07am PT
^^ Dee EE

++

but can't we have a 600 post thread on Indurain first?

Does anybody know how much is bet on the TDF, as compared to say, horse races where drugs are not and never have been used?



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 1, 2012 - 01:32am PT
Nick d...According to Tyler Hamilton , Lance was just rubbing one out in the shower while the testers impatiently waited outside...Old news...
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Oct 1, 2012 - 02:38am PT
Old news...but still true.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Oct 2, 2012 - 01:13am PT
Editor’s note: The following is an opinion piece submitted to VeloNews by former U.S. Postal Service rider Scott Mercier. Mercier retired from professional cycling in 1997 and in 2011 told VeloNews that a team doctor had offered him synthetic testosterone in the final year of his career. The UCI on Monday issued a press release defending its lawsuit against journalist Paul Kimmage, claiming that he “had made false accusations that defamed the UCI and its presidents, and which tarnished their integrity and reputation.”

The dethroning of the king, Lance Armstrong, by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency has given many hope that real change is possible for the sport of cycling. But the sport’s governing body, the UCI, led by the hapless Pat McQuaid and Hein Verbruggen, seems intent on continuing the charade. The entire world has come to accept that cycling has had a dark and sordid history with respect to doping, but the UCI refuses to acknowledge any responsibility. It is shameful that the UCI was not leading the effort to find the truth. Pat McQuaid, in particular, seems to get more desperate every time he utters a word.

His most recent action of suing journalist and renowned anti-doping crusader Paul Kimmage is just the latest example of an attempt to deny and cover up, rather than seek the truth. History suggests that the UCI did not provide protection for riders like Christophe Bassons and Filippo Simeoni, who chose to speak up and challenge the culture of doping. Rather, they were unceremoniously ushered out the door. It is time to invite athletes like them back to the sport to be a part of the solution. As a former rider for U.S. Postal, I would not have turned to the UCI for fear of the repercussions from the organization. Perhaps in my own small way I too contributed to the omerta in cycling.

The lack of comments by most of the peloton regarding the Armstrong saga suggest that the omerta is still alive and well and that the peloton is still ruled by fear. There is no small amount of irony in the fact that the sport is led today by a man who received a lifetime ban from Olympic competition for an act of willful deception and fraud by racing the Rapport Tour in apartheid South Africa during an international boycott. I also raced the Rapport Tour, but Nobel laureate Nelson Mandela was the head of state, not B.J. Vorster. Mr. Vorster was the head of the department of justice in South Africa when Nelson Mandela was sentenced to life in prison.

The UCI today appears to be governed in a similar manner as the apartheid regimes, ruled with oppression and fear. Many of today’s riders seem to be fearful of criticizing the UCI potentially and exposing themselves to repercussions.

Cycling has reached a tipping point. It is either going to be honest and open regarding its sordid history of doping and grow and thrive, or it will continue to deny and distract. The time has come for the doors of secrecy to be kicked open. It’s time for a revolution and the overthrow of the tyrannical leadership of McQuaid and Verbruggen. I urge the board members of the UCI to take control of the sport and start with a clean slate. This is the only way cycling can truly grow on a global scale.

FILED UNDER: Analysis TAGS: Hein Verbruggen / Pat McQuaid / Scott Mercier / UCI
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 2, 2012 - 01:16am PT
Apparently there is no whistle blower clause when one signs a pro contract..?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Oct 6, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
Check out "Racing through the Dark" by David Millar as well. Cycling has a lot of work to do to shake the doping legacy.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Oct 7, 2012 - 01:03am PT
I have a pretty high threshold for bullsheeit toleration, but I'm beginning to hope this thread dies soon.

While on the topic:

What if Lance Armstrong, just came out and said "yeah, I did all that sheeit, so what"?

Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Oct 8, 2012 - 12:07pm PT
Ashenden: Armstrong may have been blood-doping at 2009 Tour de France
By: Cycling News Published: October 8, 15:50,

Biological passport entries suggest blood re-infusion during the race, scientist claims


An analysis of blood samples from the 2009 Tour de France, as reflected in Lance Armstrong's biological passport, indicates that Armstrong may have been blood doping during that first comeback year, Michael Ashenden has claimed.

Ashenden, who previously worked on the UCI's biological passport programme, told California Watch, an investigative journalism group, that “an analysis of blood samples drawn in 2009, contained in an earlier court filing, suggests that Armstrong was recklessly using banned doping methods,” the San Francisco Chronicle reported.

The passport entries show that the cyclist “produced fewer young blood cells than would be expected, Ashenden said. That suggests his system was adapting to the presence of an extra volume of blood that had been re-infused,” the report said.

The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) has issued a lifetime ban against Armstrong, and disqualified all his results going back to August 1998. As part of their evidence, USADA claimed that his blood value “was consistent with” blood doping.

According to California Watch, Ashenden said that the rider's blood should have become thinner during the three-week race, a natural result of the stress and strain of the race. But that did not happen, and his blood remained consistent.

“The absence of a natural decline in blood concentration during a three-week race is also consistent with blood doping,” Ashenden said.

Armstrong has consistently denied using any sort of doping, and his spokesman, attorney Mark Fabiani reiterated that theme.

The blood date is “no evidence at all,” he said, adding, “The rules are clear to everyone but USADA: You either pass a drug test, or you fail it. There is no in between. Lance Armstrong has passed every test ever given to him, including every test administered during the 2009 Tour de France.”


Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed

WBraun

climber
Oct 8, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
There is no in between. Lance Armstrong has passed every test ever given to him

There are people who can pass any lie detector machine test too.

But they are still lying.

They know how to "beat" the machine and the test.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Oct 8, 2012 - 04:55pm PT
The above statement is a lie, LA has failed tests. I pointed out one such case upthread. He is using the GOP tactic of shouting the same lie over and over, louder all the time. That makes it true, right?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 8, 2012 - 05:30pm PT
I hope the Lance bitch gets a terminal saddle sore and ends up riding a recumbent the rest of his career...
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Oct 10, 2012 - 12:19am PT
Armstrong lawyer attacks pending USADA report

By: Jane Aubrey Cycling News Published: October 9, 23:32,

Questions the use of Big Tobacco lawyers in Agency's case


A lawyer for Lance Armstrong has renewed his attack on USADA for their case against his client, criticising the impending "reasoned decision" that is set to be handed to the UCI and WADA this week. In a lengthy letter sent on October 9 to William Bock, III, the General Counsel for USADA, Timothy Herman suggests that the agency's use of lawyers who have represented Big Tobacco is further evidence that its case is about more than perceived doping infringements, but more about Armstrong, a noted anti-tobacco advocate.

Herman continues to employ the same arguments shot down by the Texas district court judge Sam Sparks, questioning jurisdiction, procedure and motives, asking why USADA has singled out Armstrong for treatment it claims is different to any other athlete. Herman claims that USADA is not required to provide a reasoned decision to the UCI, "it is required to produce the complete file of evidence, not more allegations by USADA about what it says it could prove in a one-sided arbitration hearing," he wrote.

USADA's media relations manager Annie Skinner commented, “The rules require us to provide a reasoned decision in every case and we are happy to let the evidence speak for itself.”

Herman pointed to a bill that two U.S Congressman have introduced called the "Athlete Due Process Protection Act". The act aims to curb the alleged misappropriation of the taxpayer funds that prop up the Agency.

The bipartisan bill was introduced on September 21 by Wisconsin Republican representative Jim Sensenbrenner and Michigan Democrat John Conyers. In July, Congressman Sensenbrenner sent an open letter to the Office of National Drug Control Policy (ONDCP) querying the $9 million dollars of taxpayer funding given to USADA.

The move was then followed by United States Senator John McCain backing the USADA investigation into Armstrong and his associates, saying that the Agency's rules and processes applied to all U.S. athletes "regardless of their public profile or success in sport."

The letter also strongly criticises USADA's choice of key witnesses, Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton.

"For example, USADA will no doubt accept the stories told by Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton as gospel, though they are both serial perjurers and have told diametrically contradictory stories under oath," Herman writes. "It is beyond reckless that USADA makes Landis a lynchpin of its case - he is a confessed perjurer, has admitted criminal fraud, has been convicted of criminal hacking, and has recently been sued successfully by the UCI for defamation.

"A Swiss Court has entered a judgment prohibiting Landis from repeating his false claims that UCI leaders corruptly protected Mr. Armstrong from a doping case - the very claims that USADA no doubt will publish again in direct and knowing contempt of the lawful Swiss Court order."

Attorneys for Landis stated that he was never informed of the proceedings and was unable to defend himself against the UCI's defamation charges.

The letter also goes so far as to suggest that USADA has manufactured evidence against Armstrong. It points to an impending "farce" with the release of the USADA report "written by USADA with the significant assistance of lawyers from one of Big Tobacco's favorite law firms at a time when Lance Armstrong is one of America's leading anti-tobacco advocates. While USADA can put lipstick on a pig, it still remains a pig."

In conclusion, Herman points to a 'call to arms' with the release of the USADA report, warning that public support is with Armstrong.

"As USADA ramps up its press leaks and press releases this week and then trots out what it has pressured and coerced from others, we know that fair minded people will see whatever USADA issues is far from a "reasoned decision" and is instead further evidence of the vendetta by USADA and its talebearers seeking publicity by targeting Mr. Armstrong, his business relations and the Lance Armstrong Foundation."


Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed

brotherbbock

Trad climber
Alta Loma, CA
Oct 10, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/10/10/anti-doping-agency-to-release-evidence-against-lance-armstrong/?hpt=hp_t1

Damn
Lloyd Campbell

Social climber
St. Cloud, MN
Oct 10, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
Read the statement by Hincapie.... and he's NEVER FAILED A DOPING TEST either!

http://www.georgehincapie.com/news/Statement-from-George-Hincapie/

And this was released today as well...

http://www.usada.org/cyclinginvestigationstatement.html
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Oct 10, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
If you are following this go to http://www.cyclingnews.com/

The fur is flying and there is too much to post up. Some big current names getting suspended!

Is the USA road racing boom over?
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Oct 10, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
[Click to View YouTube Video]
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Oct 10, 2012 - 10:15pm PT
Leipheimer, Vande Velde, Zabriskie, Danielson, Barry and Hincapie suspended for six months

WTF? Bullsheeit. How do they differ from Lance Armstrong? If he finked on himself, could he get his sentence pleaded down to six months?]


Apparently so,

"I have personally talked with and heard these athletes' stories and firmly believe that, collectively, these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike. Lance Armstrong was given the same opportunity to come forward and be part of the solution. He rejected it."
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 10, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
A professional bike racer friend said , about 10 years ago , that most of the pro riders are doped ...How many US tax payer dollars have we spent to discover that these athletes are juiced up..? ...has it helped bring us out our recession...? When we talk about pork , USADA comes to mind...
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 18, 2012 - 02:34am PT
RJ, who knows the dollar value? Who knows how many kids are disappointed, along with yours truly, due to the fall of the leader?

You fall off, you get the bike straightened out and you continue the race. Like it was said, Lance could have just copped and gone on like the rest. He just said no, and so that's that.

Today's latest indicates this thread is going to continue the race.

He has stepped down from chairing the Livestrong Foundation.

He also got tossed by Nike. Can't get Tiger out of my mind.

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/cnbc/49446680/#49446680
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 18, 2012 - 03:51am PT
Praying Not as Effective as Doping It in Tebow's Case.--Merced Post


On doping:

“The riders will play by whatever rules are there. The rules can be improved. Part of that is using science; power outputs, strain gauges. I don’t think we need to suspend people for using Rogaine; it’s the big, massive oxygen drugs we need to push out of the sport, so people can actually have a chance to win the race without having to dope themselves to the max.”
---Greg Lemond, ADD sufferer, 10/06/12
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/10/new/must-hear-greg-lemond-speaks-out-in-wide-ranging-interview-on-irish-radio_256161
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Oct 18, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
JUST HOW MUCH DO YOU NEED AND HOW OFTEN?

I would like some of those folks who have admitted to doping to post their doping regimens.

I would also like Lance Armstrong to do the same, if he ever gets around to admitting it.

I want to know how much, what type and how often the drugs or procedures were utilized.

Let's see some controlled studies of the physiological benefits (or lack thereof) which accrue from using these techniques.



mountainlion

Trad climber
California
Oct 18, 2012 - 11:53pm PT
who was the climber from the stonemaster era who was on the juice?
apinguat

Trad climber
kingfield, me
Oct 20, 2012 - 08:03am PT
I would like some of those folks who have admitted to doping to post their doping regimens.

I would also like Lance Armstrong to do the same, if he ever gets around to admitting it.

I want to know how much, what type and how often the drugs or procedures were utilized.

Let's see some controlled studies of the physiological benefits (or lack thereof) which accrue from using these techniques.

some of those answers are in here on how to use transfusions, EPO and avoid detection as well as Contador data
http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2012/behind-scenes-contador-cas-hearing-michael-ashenden

This is pretty long (landis interview), but his gateway drug was a testosterone patches and he also used a cream.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/02/news/complete-transcript-paul-kimmages-interview-of-floyd-landis_158328


zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Oct 20, 2012 - 11:35am PT
^Thanks
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Oct 20, 2012 - 12:06pm PT
I wonder how badass these guys could've been if they had doped?
and then there's this guy. What do ya think, did he dope too?
and don't forget this 1-off wonder of the 84 games.
WBraun

climber
Oct 20, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
I jucied.


I addmit it


zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Oct 20, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
I wonder if Pharmstrong (new one on me) has developed a case of Romnesia?
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Oct 21, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
Armstrong's 2001 sample was suspect but not positive, says head of Lausanne lab

By: Cycling News Published: October 21,


Lance Armstrong provided a suspicious doping control at the 2001 Tour de Suisse but did not test positive for EPO, according to Martial Saugy, the director of the Lausanne laboratory which carried out the tests.

Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton both testified to the US Anti-Doping Agency that Armstrong had told them that he had tested positive in Switzerland in 2001 but that the UCI had covered up the result. The UCI has denied any such collusion.

Speaking to AFP, Saugy said that Armstrong did not test positive for EPO but his sample was one of the three from the race to be flagged as “suspect." As an "important competitor," Armstrong was called before the UCI to provide an explanation. Armstrong returned another such suspect sample at the Dauphiné Liberé in 2002, which was analysed by a different laboratory.

“There was no positive test on the Tour of Switzerland in 2001,” Saugy told AFP. “Armstrong had another suspect result during the 2002 Dauphiné Liberé. The politics of the UCI at that time, if there was such a result involving an important competitor, was to meet them and ask for an explanation. That was their approach to prevention.”

Saugy said that it was only in 2002 that he realised that Armstrong had been among the riders who had returned a suspect sample at the Tour de Suisse.

“The UCI said to me at the end of June 2002: 'we warned the rider for whom you had a suspect result in 2001, he gave another suspect return at another lab and he would like to know by which method it was tested,'” Saugy said. "The rider was Armstrong. It was then that I learned about it."

Saugy also noted that while Armstrong’s sample from the 2001 Tour de Suisse was suspicious, from a legal standpoint, it would be difficult for USADA to consider it as a positive test.

“There's no way today that this could be defended as a positive result, it's impossible," he said. "Since 2003, procedures oblige taking into account the risks of a false-positive which could verify that urine had not been affected by the physiology of the cyclist or degraded by bacteria.

"This was not done at the time and the urine no longer exists because the rules did not require keeping it."



matisse

climber
Oct 21, 2012 - 02:04pm PT
I haven't read the entire thread, but can't say you are joking about the 84 cycling team right? They blood doped using relatives blood. One had a transfusion reaction. Dave grylls refused to do it and was almost kicked off the team.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1119061/index.htm
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 21, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
If its necessary to have an 'anti-doping' agency because all the top athletes are doping then the whole activity is doomed and so corrupted by money as to make policing it a futile and pointless affair. Why bother? Who cares? And it's just another reason why it's so unfortunate formal competition and money have come to climbing as a side 'benefit' of gyms.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Oct 21, 2012 - 04:24pm PT
bears repeating and probably better than any side benefit of Jim Jones!



another case of the juice gone wrong

apinguat

Trad climber
kingfield, me
Oct 22, 2012 - 09:08am PT
Don't get too excited. last time they left the name blank a year later it was back in there. he was the best of the dirty.
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 22, 2012 - 09:35am PT
Just wait for the movie... LA will be rolling in cash...
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Oct 22, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
All cycling has done is to make their own sport completely irrelevant. So, who won those 7 TDF's now anyway? What a f*#king joke.

Curt
fear

Ice climber
hartford, ct
Oct 22, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
Yeah, like any of the top 10 finisher's wasn't doping...
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 22, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
Again, when all the top riders doped, the only conclusion of note that matters is we should not want our sport corrupted by money and sponsorship as the progression is both obvious or natural. Either that or all sports should say who gives a f*#k and let people do what they want because when sports need policing they long ago stopped being sport. Masturbatory handwringing over this sort of thing, while entertaining, is basically pointless.
Radish

Trad climber
SeKi, California
Oct 22, 2012 - 03:29pm PT
Okay, Touche', its time to move camp over to Major League Baseball eh.............
Hardman Knott

Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
Oct 22, 2012 - 03:33pm PT
This is all a steaming crock of bullshít unless Eddy Merckx is stripped of his five Tour wins...
mouse from merced

Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
Oct 22, 2012 - 04:27pm PT
http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/10/22/decision-day-for-lance-armstrong/

And another:
If Armstrong's Tour victories are not reassigned there would be a hole in the record books, marking a shift from how organizers treated similar cases in the past.

When Alberto Contador was stripped of his 2010 Tour victory for a doping violation, organizers awarded the title to Andy Schleck. In 2006, Oscar Pereiro was awarded the victory after the doping disqualification of American rider Floyd Landis.

USADA also thinks the Tour titles should not be given to other riders who finished on the podium, such was the level of doping during Armstrong's era.


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/10/22/decision-day-for-lance-armstrong/#ixzz2A3tgX7xs


Latest notice in this medium.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 22, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
Now that Lance is officially stripped of his tour wins , i have one more question...Why does hydrogen peroxide foam when poured onto a cut..?
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 22, 2012 - 04:38pm PT
Does this mean I should return my 'livestrong' bracelet?
atchafalaya

Boulder climber
Oct 22, 2012 - 05:03pm PT
I am still impressed that he kicked the other doped riders ass for seven years.
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Oct 22, 2012 - 05:08pm PT
And ask for money back so now not only does Lance f*#k over cycling we can see the effects of a witch hunt come full circle and screw everyone at all levels.

lol
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 22, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
So where are all them folks here that were all over Lance being innocent and completely clean?

I don't recall anyone here saying they thought LA rode clean. Maybe I missed a post or two, but my feeling is that most folks posting to this thread assumed that Armstrong, and virtually everyone he competed against, rode dirty.

The big questions in most posters' minds have been

a) What happens to the races that he won?
b) What happens to all the other cheaters?

It's great to have proof that he doped, but what next? If he's stripped of his wins because he doped, what becomes of everybody else's wins? Do they all get a pass? That is, you (and others) seemed to have a huge boner for Lance Armstrong, but now that he's busted, and your boner has subsided, do you just roll over and go to sleep?

And what happens going forward? The money and prestige will still be at stake, so why do you believe that busting this one guy will change everything? Maybe Wiggins rode clean this year, but do you seriously believe that if an undetectable drug becomes available tomorrow that half the peloton won't jump on it?

I don't have any answers, and don't particularly care, because my rides will be just as much fun whether a bunch of dudes in lycra are doping or not.
graniteclimber

Trad climber
The Illuminati -- S.P.E.C.T.R.E. Division
Oct 22, 2012 - 05:42pm PT
Didn't the Chief admit right here on this thread that he did doping himself?
WBraun

climber
Oct 22, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
You guys are just spinning this in a way to get back at him (The Chief) because you don't like him.

Stupid ......
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Oct 22, 2012 - 06:02pm PT
You guys are just spinning this in a way to get back at him (The Chief) because you don't like him.

Stupid ......

You're probably right Werner, but hey, The Chief was just spinning it his way because he doesn't like Lance Armstrong, so it's all just part of the eternal wheel of life.

Why are you spinning it your way?

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Oct 22, 2012 - 06:05pm PT
Lance liked to spin also...He learned it from big mig and punished Ulrich on those long tour climbs...
WBraun

climber
Oct 22, 2012 - 06:09pm PT
The whole Armstrong thing is because he swindled millions of dollars on untruths, strong arm tactics, and fuking people over for personal and monetary gains.

It's not about the bike race which is secondary.

The Chief will stand his ground.

You're all stupid trying to fight him.

Ya all know he's a military vet, a fighter, and not a pussy.

Ya think he's just gonna roll over by a some guys on the internet talking sh!t at him?

Ain't gonna happen with guys like him.

Tough sh!t guys ...... :-)

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Oct 22, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
GO WERNER!!! If you don't defend a fellow didactic then who will?
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Oct 22, 2012 - 08:01pm PT
This is all a steaming crock of bullshít unless Eddy Merckx is stripped of his five Tour wins...

Exactly.

Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Oct 22, 2012 - 08:03pm PT
^^^^Yeah, baby!
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:18pm PT
How many people did Lance save? Really? His foundation is for Cancer Awareness.

He gets money from his foundation and he got tax payer money from US Postal. How much of that money did he use to dope, to get other to dope and to intimidate and threaten those that were trying to stop doping.

I have no sympathy for Lance. He live by the sword and now...
Mimi

climber
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:25pm PT
Werner, The Chief remains a fuktard no matter how you classify him. LOL!
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Oct 22, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
Simply put: He is the best ever. I only hope cycling will ever get someone who was as riveting and commanding to watch. Blank or not, seven titles will never be exceeded.

The determination and sheer power of will most likely will never be seen again in professional sports.
Mimi

climber