Lance Armstrong accepts lifetime ban, loss of Tour de France

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The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Original Post - Aug 23, 2012 - 07:08pm PT


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrong-accepts-lifetime-ban-loss-of-tour-de-france-titles

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/story/2012-08-23/Armstrong-doping-charges/57258616/1
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
Does this mean they give him his cancer back too?
skywalker

climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
Bummer,

Was a hero to many many people even beyond cycling.

S...
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
Whatever...!
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
Lance didn't really dope....Common sense tells me so...RJ
jmap

Social climber
NC
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
What a total crock of sh#t. There's not a clean cyclist in the peloton.

Sonic

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:19pm PT
Still would be hard to win a tour de France with doping.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 07:20pm PT
Armstrong declined, saying, "I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair" and said USADA has "zero physical evidence" to support its "outlandish and heinous claims."

C'mon!

Guy like him does not give in unless he saw the list of names that were going to testify against him and the evidence USADA had amassed against him.

Had he gone to arbitration, the entire lot would have gone public and his name would be shet.

By doing this, nothing becomes public that entails him.

But if Dr. Pedro Celaya decides to fight this, all the incidents that included LA will indeed go public. That is if LA doesn't pay him off or even has him off'd.


There are millions of dollars in endorsements and prize money at stake here


Any way you see it, LA is a cheat and liar.



mitchy

Trad climber
new england
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
So the cat is getting rail roaded, and is sick of the BS.
Silver

Ice climber
OLPP
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:23pm PT
Really big surprise no way he was doping in a sport full of dopers.

I jut look at it like he was the best doper those years.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:28pm PT
Chief...There is no such thing as doping...Doping is a cyclical thing....RJ
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:30pm PT
Armstrong does not recognize agency's right to ban him
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrongs-full-statement-on-usada



Statement by Lance Armstrong

There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in winning my seven Tours since 1999. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a two-year federal criminal investigation followed by Travis Tygart's unconstitutional witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today - finished with this nonsense. I had hoped that a federal court would stop USADA's charade. Although the court was sympathetic to my concerns and recognized the many improprieties and deficiencies in USADA's motives, its conduct, and its process, the court ultimately decided that it could not intervene.

If I thought for one moment that by participating in USADA's process, I could confront these allegations in a fair setting and - once and for all - put these charges to rest, I would jump at the chance. But I refuse to participate in a process that is so one-sided and unfair. Regardless of what Travis Tygart says, there is zero physical evidence to support his outlandish and heinous claims. The only physical evidence here is the hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colors. I made myself available around the clock and around the world. In-competition. Out of competition. Blood. Urine. Whatever they asked for I provided. What is the point of all this testing if, in the end, USADA will not stand by it?

From the beginning, however, this investigation has not been about learning the truth or cleaning up cycling, but about punishing me at all costs. I am a retired cyclist, yet USADA has lodged charges over 17 years old despite its own 8-year limitation. As respected organizations such as UCI and USA Cycling have made clear, USADA lacks jurisdiction even to bring these charges. The international bodies governing cycling have ordered USADA to stop, have given notice that no one should participate in USADA's improper proceedings, and have made it clear the pronouncements by USADA that it has banned people for life or stripped them of their accomplishments are made without authority. And as many others, including USADA's own arbitrators, have found, there is nothing even remotely fair about its process. USADA has broken the law, turned its back on its own rules, and stiff-armed those who have tried to persuade USADA to honor its obligations. At every turn, USADA has played the role of a bully, threatening everyone in its way and challenging the good faith of anyone who questions its motives or its methods, all at U.S. taxpayers' expense.

For the last two months, USADA has endlessly repeated the mantra that there should be a single set of rules, applicable to all, but they have arrogantly refused to practice what they preach. On top of all that, USADA has allegedly made deals with other riders that circumvent their own rules as long as they said I cheated. Many of those riders continue to race today. The bottom line is I played by the rules that were put in place by the UCI, WADA and USADA when I raced. The idea that athletes can be convicted today without positive A and B samples, under the same rules and procedures that apply to athletes with positive tests, perverts the system and creates a process where any begrudged ex teammate can open a USADA case out of spite or for personal gain or a cheating cyclist can cut a sweetheart deal for themselves. It's an unfair approach, applied selectively, in opposition to all the rules. It's just not right.

USADA cannot assert control of a professional international sport and attempt to strip my seven Tour de France titles. I know who won those seven Tours, my teammates know who won those seven Tours, and everyone I competed against knows who won those seven Tours. We all raced together. For three weeks over the same roads, the same mountains, and against all the weather and elements that we had to confront. There were no shortcuts, there was no special treatment. The same courses, the same rules. The toughest event in the world where the strongest man wins. Nobody can ever change that. Especially not Travis Tygart.

Today I turn the page. I will no longer address this issue, regardless of the circumstances. I will commit myself to the work I began before ever winning a single Tour de France title: serving people and families affected by cancer, especially those in underserved communities. This October, my Foundation will celebrate 15 years of service to cancer survivors and the milestone of raising nearly $500 million. We have a lot of work to do and I'm looking forward to an end to this pointless distraction. I have a responsibility to all those who have stepped forward to devote their time and energy to the cancer cause. I will not stop fighting for that mission. Going forward, I am going to devote myself to raising my five beautiful (and energetic) kids, fighting cancer, and attempting to be the fittest 40-year old on the planet.

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:31pm PT
What a f*#king joke. It's like giveing sport climbers sh#t for pre hung draws.... i bet there was nobody in the top 20 that was not dopeing.........
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
I bet there are some of those TDFs that at least the top 5 have been accused of doping. I do know that the yellow jersey for the 2004 TDF will be given to Roberto Albertini. He crashed out during the prologue. Since he never finished a stage he never was tested. Now he is a TDF Champion!!!


VIVA Albertini!!!!!!!
pazzo

climber
Vancouver BC
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:36pm PT
If they all dope then who cares. It’s fair right?
Anastasia

climber
InLOVEwithAris.
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
Why do they need to break down everything, make such a stink that we can't have heroes anymore? If he passed then, why does he have to keep dealing with the questions years later? It doesn't feel right, or fair...
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
That is so fckin weak.. give it to the only guy we didn't catch dopeing and we only did not catch him because he did not finish.........
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:46pm PT
I've seen no proof that he doped. I have no idea if he did or not. It is clear that Millions of dollars have been spent trying to discredit him.. but still no PROOF?

Odd isn't it.

Without PROOF, he is innocent.

That is all.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
2004 TDF will be given to Roberto Albertini

BS.... Klöden gets it. He's never been "officially" accused, investigated nor ever suspected of doping except some tid bit hairball claim in '09 that went no where and fizzled away for any lack of substantial evidence.

Regardless.

LA is a fighter. Been through this battle too many times and won. To throw in the towel at this juncture only shows that the evidence and testimonies that USADA has collected against him is overwhelming and not one bit winnable.

By doing this, he saves face and saves all that testimony from folks the likes of Georgie and Levy (which most assuredly are on the list of characters to testify against him). That too may be a reason for throwing in the towel. To save them, his team mates, the agony of having to go public and tell the truth. In doing so, making the entire US Postal and Discovery Teams look like complete liars and cheat during all them years.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 23, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
So, chiefman, why do have such a hard-on for this? He doped? He didn't dope? What knowledge do you actually have? Seems you just get a giant boner at the thought of pushing some hero off a pedestal.

Suppose he did dope. Strip him of his titles, and...

...and what? Award the win to whatever doper placed second?

And don't tell me that all those guys that placed second were clean when the guy that placed first wasn't. You've got no more clue about that than about whether or not Armstrong doped.

Or do you? Do you have all the evidence, but somehow were just too busy to bring it to the cycling authorities?

Who gives a flying f*#k? The guy, doper or not, was a better cyclist than all the other dopers he raced against, and also did something none of them did -- raised half a billion for cancer research.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 07:59pm PT
Because he is a LIAR and a CHEAT!

Paying the system off with money to keep his image of CHARACTER AND INTEGRITY intact.

Yup... that is one hell of a stand up guy.


But in today's society, those two virtues mean jackshet.....
Matt

Trad climber
it's all turtles, all the way dooowwwwwnn!!!!!
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:00pm PT
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/judge-issues-stinging-criticism-of-usada-in-armstrong-case

interesting angle on the mess
T Hocking

Trad climber
Riverside/Redding, Ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
I say let em dope,
I'm tired of federal agencys spending millions of our tax dollars on trying to prove what we know has been going on in all sports for decades.
Barry Bonds, Roger Clements,others, now Lance yada yada yada.
And why do they always go after the Big name stars or winners, you never hear about them tryin to bust a 3rd string bench riding professional athlete or the guy that finishes last.
There are better things to spend our tax dollars on!!!
Tad
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:06pm PT
Bingo!
heck there were losers dopeing in our gym who had never won anything significant and you know damn well all the top guys wrer doing the same crap X10. BFD
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:07pm PT
Hey The Chief . . . you are the f*#king pathetic loser. What have you dedicated you efforts to, besides being a willy waver?
Dapper Dan

Trad climber
Menlo Park
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
It's hard to believe that someone of Armstrong's tenacity and dedication would roll over and choose not to fight anymore if he was truly innocent . Is it impossible for him to focus on his charity and fight the charges?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 08:08pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That is why LA threw in the towel today.

Ten bucks says that USADA presented the judge and LA's attorneys the lot of names and evidence yesterday per the judges decision and recommendation on Monday to do so before today's deadline.



Kalimon.... HA HA HA... your false hero just got deflated and blew away!

LOOOOOOOOOSER!
nutjob

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:09pm PT
Perhaps after years of battle he has decided that he will never be exonerated in that process, so continued engagement has no upside.

That indicates nothing about whether he is guilty or innocent. Just that he's done fighting what he thinks is a pointless fight. Giving up a pointless fight is not inconsistent with being a champion and fighting long odds where it matters and where one's actions can influence the outcome.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:09pm PT

According to the article , only the UCI has the power to ban Lance , not USADA....Wha , wha , wha , wha...!
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:10pm PT
That is why LA threw in the towel today.
Whatever dude . . . you are still an as#@&%e.

There is no false hero . . . just an extremely pathetic nobody that is dissing on someone that has accomplished something in their life.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
There are better things to spend our tax dollars on!!!

I propose that those dollars be spent on research into, or solutions to, the global warming problem. This actually has two huge advantages: first, it channels time, money, and human energy into something useful instead of a complete waste, and second, The Chief will hate it just as much! The rest of us get some real benefit, and he gets to keep on ranting -- it's a win/win!
pc

climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:11pm PT
+1 on the bingo.

It's just frickin' entertainment. Who cares? And he does a lot of good for folks who don't have any hope at all.

7 new TdF winners? Joke. Though I'd love to see Jan Ullrich get one of them.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
Armstrong IS a wizard, so it's right to have a witch hunt, eh?

And

http://360jokes.com/car-2/get-out-of-my-way-say-no-to-doping/
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
I might be an as#@&%e but not close to the LOOOOOOOOOOOOSER lying cheat that swindle all you sheep out there over the years into believing he was a perfect saint and then stole millions in prize money and endorsements.


UCI will have to make their decision tomorrow. Most likely they already have in favor to take it all away from LA in order to keep their names safe after the '01 Swiss Tour debacle.



I propose that those dollars be spent on research into, or solutions to, the global warming problem

There it is..... How many post did it take for that lard ass claim to come out!
MisterE

Social climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:15pm PT
Man, what a mess.

What would really kill me, though, is losing the rockin' girl

Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:16pm PT
Does this mean they give him his cancer back too?

Sounds like The Chief probably wouldn't mind that either.

Curt
tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:17pm PT
no one ever seriously thought he did not dope. It's fecking cycling, they all dope. BFD..............
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
What would really kill me, though, is losing the rockin' girl

Ah, she left his ass.

I wonder why???

Tomorrow will be the day that goes down in cycling history when the UCI takes it all away.

Till then....
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:20pm PT
Eggs ackley, my man! Majority of dopers, minority of non-dopers, anyway. They all seem to admit this. Coyly, of course.

Chief, the Tea Party needs you, bud.
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:21pm PT
I might be an as#@&%e but not close to the LOOOOOOOOOOOOSER lying cheat that swindle all you sheep out there over the years into believing he was a perfect saint and then stole millions in prize money and endorsements.

Who ever implied that anyone is a saint? You've got some issues dude . . . professional sports are all about performance enhancement. Cyclists have been "enhancing" long before Lance was even born. Pull your pin head out of your ass and focus on your issues.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
Ghost, I am sure you agree:

The fox smells his own hole
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
The Chief,

Your take on it is based on moral righteousness about the perception of unfairness due to scrutiny of a winning competitor.

Armstrong is justifiably standing open to the court of civil opinion to rule VS. sport associations with vested image issues.

All the Human Rights and sports Tribunals and other quasi-legal comfort courts have no real weight if an individual dares to face the real legal logisticians.

The guy wants to take it public for real. Let him.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:26pm PT
Let me ask you this: if you didn't dope, and came in 2nd place to Lance, would your thoughts be different?

I always wondered if the loss of the testosterone which the other (missing) ball should have pumped out was never an issue nor slowed the man down. Clearly the man has drive and talent. He wouldn't back off so easily if he thought he could win his case.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:29pm PT
ghost,
Seems you just get a giant boner at the thought of pushing some hero off a pedestal.

LOL!
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
I doped when I climbed El Cap,.....ten times........

Damn, are y'all gonna take my titles away?????
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:34pm PT
Yes Bruce,

Especially you....
sullly

Trad climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:40pm PT
His smugness lost me long ago.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 08:42pm PT
Cyclists have been "enhancing" long before Lance was even born. Pull your pin head out of your ass and focus on your issues.

Big difference between those dudes and Lance....

They came clean and faced the music.

But of course in the eyes of all who adore LA, that means nothing.


From his statement today:

"(The) faith of all the cancer survivors around the world. Everything I do off the bike would go away, too,"Armstrong said then. "And don't think for a second I don't understand that. It's not about money for me. Everything. It's also about the faith that people have put in me over the years. So all of that would be erased."

In other words, by his actions today, he allows the court of public opinion to decide his faith. Regardless the truth. Knowing that if he continued with the arbitration, he would definitely be outed and all his integrity would be shitcanned.

Genius, maybe. Fact is, Bruyneel is fighting it. That will disclose evidence and testimony that will definitely out LA.


I say that LA will come clean next week. Begging for sympathy from all his thousands of diehard followers. Of course getting it as exemplified here.

That is the tale of our society... regardless the truth.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
There is no guarantee of sympathy be it from current admirers or civil court.

The dumb is always when "the court of public opinion" is full of hurt in face of civil or criminal court findings.

Law is logic not emotion.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Aug 23, 2012 - 08:55pm PT
Lance's net worth is $125 million so in a sense he did get away
with it.


http://www.celebritynetworth.com/richest-athletes/olympians/lance-armstrong-net-worth/

Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:03pm PT
That is the tale of our society... regardless the truth.

Give me a fukking break. The last thing you care about is truth. Maybe LA doped and maybe he didn't--I have no absolute proof either way and neither do you. Doping is/was rampant in cycling and likely as not, the guy who finished second to LA in each TDF was doping. All you seem truly passionate about is tearing down a legend.

Curt
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 09:04pm PT
Lance's net worth is $125 million

Oh, but a large sum of that worth will most certainly be at stake after today's events.

KNOCK KNOCK.... hey Lance buddy, ah how about returning that fancy doe we gave you for winning them TDF's that you now no longer own.

Indeed many of manufactures such as Nike etal will not want anything to do with this dude. And most certainly will have to maintain their integrity with the rest of their clientele globally. Being associated with LA after today will not enhance that global marketing value worth billions.

Example, Tiger Woods.

All you seem truly passionate about is tearing down a legend.

A legend in your own minds. Not nor ever was in mine. Fact is, was not in many others either.

Hell, if he had a rocket super glued to his ass the last ten years and outright cheated and still won, you all would be in the same bs "Legend" sand box.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
THis is a joke. They all dope. They should simply go after the new winners the way they went after Lance until they accept bans and then go after the third place guys

Sure, they try to avoid being technically tested on the wrong side of the law and Lance beat all that, so they go after him anyway

Peace

Karl
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
Example, Tiger Woods.

Yeah, Tiger's really hurting. Do you just hate all Americans?

A legend in your own minds. Not nor ever was in mine. Fact is, was not in many others either.

Hell, if he had a rocket super glued to his ass the last ten years and outright cheated and still won, you all would be in the same bs "Legend" sand box.

While you're on your pathological mission, why not strip Michael Phelps of his London medals for the Louis Vuitton ads?

Curt
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:07pm PT
BFD if Lance doped...I think his other accomplishments , surviving cancer and living the grueling lifestyle of a pro rider far out shine any accusations the peanut gallery can throw at him...And do i have to mention the exposure Armstrong gave to the American cycling industry...? RJ
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
He's every bit the hero that Barry Bonds is...oh and Michael Vick...Pete Rose...
this just in

climber
north fork
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
Funny, how things change. The poster boy of cycling, being hunted by those who promoted him, because he was great for the sport and ratings. Same bullshit with baseball, when Sosa and McGuire were battling for the single season home run record. MLB pumped it up for ratings, then crucified them when doping became a problem. Like they didn't support the ratings and money it brought and played dumb in knowing it was happening. All the same sh#t to make money and guess what they're using Armstrong to get headlines again. "don't hate the player, hate the game" actually don't hate any of it, it's just a game and who gives a sh#t.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 09:11pm PT
And do i have to mention the exposure Armstrong gave to the American cycling industry

Yeah after today... it pays to be a cheat! A pure example of this modern day society. Do what ever it costs to get to the top and be #1. Money and prestige is everything. Spending millions to keep yourself from being outed.

Honor and Integrity no longer mean jacksh#t. Nothing.

How admirable.





KARL: Wow!






Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
By the agreed upon standards in place, he did not dope, PERIOD. A+B samples, positive...they didn't have them, thus no evidence. Hearsay from the pelton is not a positive sample. Some wankers with a hard on for LA, also not a positive sample.

My intial thoughts were:

1. Who the F$%^k is the USADA, and
2. On what planet are they living if they think they have some kind of authority over who does or does not hold the TDF titles.

These clowns are so far out to lunch they're having a picnic on Mars. I wouldn't bother with them either if I were him. "You're stripping my titles? Bwhahaha, you don't have the authority dipshits. You're giving me a life ban? I'm retired dipshits. Go f*#k yourselves"

Good for LA. At some point you have to say "enough is enough".

crunch

Social climber
CO
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:16pm PT
No one's immune. I heard they were investigating Donini next....
MisterE

Social climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
WBraun

climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:18pm PT
You're giving me a life ban? I'm retired dipshits. Go f*#k yourselves"

LOL

I thought the same thing.

Hows that work anyways?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
Chief...What Tour did Jack Shite ride in...? RJ
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
I heard Donini was the Tiger Woods of camp four...?
WBraun

climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
Chief has a good argument so we'll just have to see how it plays out.

This will be vedy interesting .......
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
It's great the standup officials at the USADA spent all those millions figuring out... nothing? In the cycle of promoting and tearing down our heroes, who really wins? At least Lance cycles (get it?!) some of that money into the service of a charitable cause.

I still dug seeing all those great races. I'll take the joy I felt seeing great wins where Lance dug deep in the mountains and leave it to small minds who only think themselves bigger by tearing the world down to trumpet their own pathetic misery.

For everything that has a blemish somewhere, there's always some macabre dipshit there to jump up and down hooting and pointing it out.

Viva Lance!
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
These clowns are so far out to lunch they're having a picnic on Mars. I wouldn't bother with them either if I were him. "You're stripping my titles? Bwhahaha, you don't have the authority dipshits. You're giving me a life ban? I'm retired dipshits. Go f*#k yourselves"

Ding Ding.... UCI ring a bell.

They will follow suit tomorrow in order to save their own asses. They have no choice after the '01 Tour de Swiss cover up that most likely broke loose after the FDA investigation and Interpol gathered full testimony from the lab rat who sang like a tweeety to save his or her ass.

Then LA will have nothing.


Fact is, you all aint see nothing yet. In the next week watch and see what McQuaid does to restore any integrity in the UCI after all this blows up over in Europe tomorrow.

You all want to see the court of public opinion over there... LA is toast after Europe wakes up to this news in a couple of hours.




Observation:

Most here that adore and defend LA are in the 99% group that totally disdains and hate Wall Street. Oh how cliche......
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:25pm PT
Meanwhile the artic melts...
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:25pm PT
No one's immune. I heard they were investigating Donini next....

Geez. I thought that one would stay buried. But since you bring it up, what I heard is that Donini accidentally combined the doses for all four guys on that Latok trip into his own syringe. It gave him super powers, but once the investigation gets rolling they'll definitely strip him of all his first ascents.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
Chief, I think it's pretty likely Armstrong doped.

But pretty much everyone else did too. If you think Kloden is in the clear, you haven't been paying too close attention:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/german-nada-looking-to-investigate-kloden-sinkewitz-and-kessler-for-blood-doping
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:29pm PT
Chief has a good argument so we'll just have to see how it plays out.

This will be vedy interesting .......

If The Chief were less selective in his outrage, he might have something. This will be interesting, though.

Curt
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 09:30pm PT
Meanwhile the artic melts...

And the Antarctic grows.

So the way I see it, you all need to get on the next Aeroflat wanna-be flt to the "ICE" and settle down, with LA. Cus after next week, he's going to need to find a small hole somewhere where no one knows of him and hide for the rest of his life. Watch.
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
The UCI owes the USADA nothing. As a matter of fact, they may resent this. Let's wait and see. Looks like a chess game. May not save him though.

Pretty lame to bring it so far after the fact. Someone has a big ol' hairy hard on to take Lance down.

Good reason for pictures of Sheryl. Thanks E ;-)
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:34pm PT
By the time they get done DQing riders there will be no records in the tour.
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:35pm PT
Pretty lame to bring it so far after the fact. Someone has a big ol' hairy hard on to take Lance down.

The Chief runs USADA? I guess everything makes perfect sense now.

Curt
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
MH,

It's about the law. LA is willing to face the true legal system, not presumptuous tribunals.

Let the facts be aired. There is too much willingness to avoid public court these days in favour of all sorts of quasi judicial bodies.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 09:36pm PT
The Chief were less selective in his outrage

Well, that is good obs. More like delivery. I was taught by the best.




That is besides the point.

LA is done... stick the fork in him.





See ya. Off to take three Russians up Whitney in the morning.


The Chief runs USADA?

Nope. I just read the facts....

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ashenden-says-mcquaid-must-now-help-usadas-investigation

McQuaid has no choice. Remember where he came from??? Oh yeah.... Director of WADA. The same org that tried desperateley to nail LA back when all this began.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:39pm PT
OH NO! He f*#ked up the Ride Around France game!

Hurry, let's get Congress involved!!!!









F*#king Americans. Want the biggest heroes, with the biggest muscles and the best times. So focused on being #1 that we forget sometimes that to be #1 means you have be a very, very smart cheater.




Cycling is on the extreme low-technical end. I am not in any way, shape, or form a voice in the cycling world but here's whats up.

The less technical prowess needed, the more of an effect supplimentation is going to have.

cycling is so simplistic that it is one of the most even playing fields. This isn't MMA where some guys are wrestlers, some guys strike, some guys do both. This isn't climbing where some guys boulder, some like to rope up.

Sh#t, this isn't even Alpinism, where the weather and conditions can make litmus tests impossible.

This is like Nordic skiing, a game of V02 Max. It is performing 'almost' in a vacuum. Yes, there is skill involved - I used to be a competitive runner (kind of still am, but I compete terribly. I know all about competing in very straightforward, very boring sports.)



Long story short, Congress met more for the Steroid scandal in baseball than the Iraq or Afghanistan war.






We love underdogs. We love old dogs. We love happy stories. That's why Lance made us all feel like we got kicked in the dick.


Americans don't own his triumphs, no more than we own his defeats. He was a dude, who f*#ked up. The fact that people feel so shitty to him is absolutely, stunningly mind boggling.


Educate yourselves on PED's, on TRT, on blood doping. Then train at a world class level. Then have the entire country behind you, expecting a win; anything else is failure. Have some empathy.







When I was 12 I beat the f*#k out of a small jewish kid in junior high. He wasn't cool, was super tiny, and was kind of an as#@&%e. One day I snapped, and gave it to him. I don't remember his name, or a lot about it, but it was the shittiest, lowest I've felt in my life, and it stays with me to this day. I'm going to bet that my f*#k up hurt the world a lot less than a road cyclist trying to use a banned substance.


Am I disappointed? Sure. I wanted it to be real, too, because that pull of Patriotism and familiarity is pretty strong. I wish he made better decisions, but for his own good. To be honest, the only reason almost any of us are rooting for him is because his parents decided to sh#t him out in Texas instead of Tehran.




If after reading my rant, if you haven't found peace and solice (not likely, sh#t I don't even got that) I have one last thought. How much have YOU raised to cure cancer? I hope it's a lot. I haven't done sh#t.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:40pm PT
There are millions of dollars in endorsements and prize money at stake here


Sh#t, I wonder why he cheated... LOL
gonzo chemist

climber
Fort Collins, CO
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:41pm PT
I think they should take away the Rolling Stones' gold (and platinum) albums. Those guys were doped out of their minds!

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:44pm PT
And we are surprised?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 09:45pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Absolutely GD.

LA is absolutely no different than this dude... no different:






It's all about the money......
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
Bill Koch once said that the fastest athletes would still be the fastest even if they were not on PEDs...
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
Nope. I just read the facts....

Oh please. I live in Arizona and am quite familiar with political persecution by kangaroo courts.

Curt
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
I hope you know Chief, I mean no disrespect - some here seem content to perform ad-hominem, but you have a very valid points. I just can't get worked up about it anymore.

edit - I have no idea who that photo is, but I don't have TV and only use the internet for slandering people online and porn : /
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:48pm PT
Chief...Is that one of your russian friends...?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:50pm PT
Actually I think its the rat that trained the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Master Splinter?

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
Nope... Clients.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^





I just can't get worked up about it anymore.

I know exactly what ya mean GD... But!

Funny thing, this whole LA deal reminds me of this....No shit!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ur3121e_Cgg




But most will not understand this either. To frkn logical.
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:53pm PT
Gee Davis, you're awfully dramatic...
Wade Icey

Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:55pm PT
who gets all those El Cap FA's?
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:57pm PT
According to the article , only the UCI has the power to ban Lance , not USADA....Wha , wha , wha , wha...!

Correct, and UCI asked USADA to turn the investigation over to them. USADA refused. To me that speaks volumes. I hope UCI returns the favor and tells USADA to pound sand.

Curt
Captain...or Skully

climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
Road bikes. Who cares?
Yawn.
Silver

Ice climber
OLPP
Aug 23, 2012 - 09:59pm PT
No sh#t a life ban on guy who is retired. Big deal


All I know is if yur heros are guys like lance your hero pool is pretty shallow.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
Gee Davis, you're awfully dramatic...


He mostly works the angle pretty well though. And I can't really fault him for catching the hue of a thread that started with the full on cry of an agitated harpy eagle excitedly messing himself in the midst of a full on hate orgy. Excites the senses, it does.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 23, 2012 - 10:02pm PT
I hope UCI returns the favor and tells USADA to pound sand.

If you were a betting a man I guarantee ya you'd be applying for food stamps after tomorrow.

UCI will follow suit. Watch. Euros will demand it. It's there sport.... not ours.




hate orgy.

Nope. Don't hate LA one bit.

Just hate what he and the rest of the 1%ers are doing to get to the top.
WBraun

climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
Actually Lance wanted to do this triathlon recently and got kicked out by these guys who are after him.

So technically he's really not fully retired ..... :-)
Silver

Ice climber
OLPP
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:08pm PT
Lance should rap el cap.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:09pm PT
You're giving me a life ban? I'm retired dipshits. Go f*#k yourselves"

LOL

I thought the same thing.

Hows that work anyways?

Werner got to it just before me, Lance was going to do Ironman Hawaii, it was going to be a big deal.
Silver

Ice climber
OLPP
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:10pm PT
^^^really^^^^

No big deal to me
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:14pm PT
Nope. Don't hate LA one bit.

Then why devote so much time and passion? Picking out guys like Lance as a figurehead for the elite seems pointless and off base to me. The drive to see heroes torn down seems as twisted as the process as putting them up. You can only be truly hurt by the heroes if you elevated them too far in the first place.

Just like all the goddamn hero-elevating story telling in the Olympics. Of course you're going to be let down by the reality. It's only a matter of time till they open their mouth, get caught in a scandal, or stupidly profess God as the reason they won. They're just athletes. At least Lance contributed something beyond that.

Sports media always ends up sounding like something high strung teenagers would write on facebook, all love or hate, swooning over the dreamy jock, or all jaded when he dumps them for that bitch Susie.

edit: Oh well, rant over for me. I really just had the tip in Lance's lycra clad butthole, I don't really follow or care about the peloton now that I haven't had cable for years now. Like any climber aka narcissist, the only sporting event I really care about is the shoddy event I orchestrate myself. Cheers to all us f*#ked up, drunk, dope smoking climbers!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:16pm PT
"John Wayne never wore Lycra"
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
^^^really^^^^

No big deal to me

I meant from a media standpoint. Even LA doing it drugged to the hilt couldn't get me to watch the horrible coverage of the Ironman.
WBraun

climber
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:17pm PT
Wait a minute.

Now why you hating Susie????

:-)
Rankin

Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:20pm PT
How can anyone be surprised? Most other winning Tour riders over the past 15+ years have been popped for doping at some point. Also, the main risk for men who take steroids is, hello, testicular cancer.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:26pm PT
The USADA's arrogance in believing that they can strip Lance of his titles even though they have no jurisdiction over that issue speaks volumes to me. Few things are scarier than an enforcement agency that has no understanding or concern about the limits of its power.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
France surrendered.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 23, 2012 - 10:45pm PT
France was also right next to Germany. Isolation for the win!


U S A! U S A!


tooth

Trad climber
B.C.
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:02pm PT
Sport is whatever people create. Once it gets big enough, armchair sportsmen/politicians can get involved and make money from advertising and make rules and boss people around. I can't imagine if they applied this to rock climbing, doing drug tests on everyone before they got on El Cap, timing them, allowing them only certain cams or nuts with weight restrictions on gear, putting advertising and cameras all over the wall with inflatable finish lines at the top, etc. Looks clownish when you put it all into our context.

I respect Lance for saying 'screw you, I'm going to ride my bike'. I would say the same thing to them if they tried to get involved in climbing. Most climbers would, as soon as the drug tests started!
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 23, 2012 - 11:27pm PT
I take this as a confession, although he is still in denial. Seeing the Tour this year made me think that they are finally starting to get somewhere with the anti-dope work within cycling.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:23am PT
. USADA’s letter, dated Tuesday, alleges that Armstrong and five former cycling team associates —three doctors including Italian physician Michele Ferrari, one trainer and team manager Johan Bruyneel —engaged in a massive doping conspiracy from 1998 to 2007, and that “the witnesses to the conduct described in this letter include more than ten (10) cyclists.”

All six, including Spanish trainer Jose “Pepi” Marti and Spanish doctors Pedro Celaya and Luis Garcia del Moral, face competition bans. USADA put all of the alleged violations in one letter, it stated, because it considers the six defendants part of a “long running doping conspiracy.”

The letter specifically alleges that “multiple riders with firsthand knowledge” will testify that Armstrong used EPO —shorthand for erythropoietin, an endurance-boosting drug —blood transfusions, testosterone and masking agents, and that he distributed and administered drugs to other cyclists from 1998 to 2005. The letter alleges that numerous witnesses will testify that Armstrong also used human growth hormone before 1996.
QITNL

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:33am PT
BREAKING NEWS!!!

Lance Armstrong = Dr. Phil



Tell that to all the old biddies at your knitting circle tomorrow.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:33am PT
massive doping conspiracy

Is Licky doing the book?

Bicycle riding should be banned from the world of dope. It's giving entrepreneurial job creators a bad name.









zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:05am PT
Breaking news:


Ali accepts lifetime ban from boxing for using the rope-a-dope.

Sonny Liston revives himself from the grave for another title run, is scheduled to meet Lance Armstrong in cage fight.




QITNL

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:23am PT
Gimme a Tee!

Tee!!!!

What's that spell?

Tee!!!!


Mom & Dad live in Hollywood, White Punks On Dope!
Damn this looks high

Trad climber
Temecula, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:31am PT
Here's why doping matters.

A child grows up on a bicycle and develops a great love for cycling, dreaming of making it to the professional ranks, winning big races, like the Tour de France. If doping is rampant--if everyone does it--then that child ultimately has to make a decision: either dope or give up on the dream that has consumed his or her life.

DOPE or GIVE UP YOUR DREAM.

That's a decision no person should have to make and no parent should have to imagine for his child.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:18am PT
What bothers me as much as the actual doping (which, almost certainly he did) is the lying to everybody about it. I can't imagine what it must be like to lie to everybody, all of the time and to then lash out against the knowing accusers and call THEM liars. He (and the rest of them who have cheated) must have an unreal ability to compartmentalize.
stich

Trad climber
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:21am PT
So a cyclist that dopes and also rides harder than other cyclists that dope is being stripped of his title. Yawn. Sorry, I just do not give a sh#t about this.
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:36am PT
The Chief... seek help. You have a lot of hate for something that probably doesn't affect you in any real way.
TwistedCrank

climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
Aug 24, 2012 - 07:29am PT
Who is Lance Armstrong?
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 24, 2012 - 07:30am PT
You know Jim, that was always the argument against baseball.


I'm 5'7" on a good day. My dad was on the US Men's national Volleyball team. My favorite athlete was Michael Jordan. From age 2 to 15 I loved nothing more than Basketball, and to an extent volleyball.


Then I didn't grow. High school basketball coach said I was too short, only men's rec league for volleyball around was a complete joke. I wasn't BAD at these sports, I mean heck, I trained maybe 3 hours a day on my home court.

My dream got crushed because I was a short f*#k. Yeah, some guys can be short too and play those sports (my dad is 6'5", and I was a huge kid, so I figured I would be tall, too). But really... nope. You won't find many avenues for success.






Build your children to love and honor themselves. Idols are just people, Michael Jordan is a huge jerkoff to media and fans. Instill a belief system and values not based on a multi-millionaire. Sure, kids are going to gravitate towards 'heroes,' but the world is a sick place and the emperor has no clothes. Cycling is broken, and I agree, should be fixed. It absolutely should NOT be something that you can't compete with unless you make those decisions.

But that's cycling's problem. Maybe at the highest level there really IS no way to compete at the world class level with out some kind of foul play? Better break it to Junior early, rather than later...
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 07:43am PT
probably worth mention on this thread, one of george carlin's last routines was something called "it can kill you".

he began by introducing himself as an old f*#k, and went on to make an important distinction between an old f*#k and an old fart.

later, quite worked up, he declared,

"f*#k lance armstrong! f*#k him and his steroids! and while we're at it, f*#k tiger woods!"

the applause was thunderous.
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:03am PT
LOL !!!!

If Lance didn't dope, hes the greatest cyclist EVER, because he beat all the others that doped like hell.

If Lance doped, hes still the greatest cyclist EVER, because everyone doped and he still beat them...
steve shea

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:04am PT
I guess Lance may have doped. So what. The doping and cycling success, to me are irrelevant. To have two feet in the grave, survive and compete at his level was an inspiration for me. I got cancer and obviously see this through that prism. LA helped me deal with it. Chief has been on a similar rant before. Pretty entertaining really. Like the Swiftboaters, current Teabagger Seals, and racist scientifically ignorant bible thumpers, where do you get the hate? You look so life like.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:07am PT
not having read through this thread, have we discussed top rockclimbers who dope? magic mushrooms? top climbers who are dopes?
Some Random Guy

Trad climber
San Francisco
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:11am PT
those panzy ass frenchies are just scared of a one balled wonder putting them all to shame on their own turf.
ron gomez

Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:18am PT
ONCE again.....couldn't agree more with Werner. Over 500 test SINCE 2000, ALL negative. Either the testing process is worthless.....500 tests,0 positives, or Armstrong is legit.
Would be like you getting convicted of murder, with NO proof other than from other convicted murderers who said you did it.
The testing NEEDS to get it's act together, one way or another.
Peace
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:21am PT
Well as far as F*cKing people, given a choice I'd take Tiger's former wife (only after my current one, though).

Tony raises some interesting points, No?

What about surfers who ride the Pipleline or the Wedge on acid?

BTW, is LSD banned in cycling?

Bonzai Pipeline
Bonzai Pipeline
Credit: Timothy Leary & John Peck

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:36am PT
omg 130 posts...

Back in the day I bought LIVESTRONG yellow bracelet. I want my 1$ back!

500 tests,0 positives, or Armstrong is legit.

Or he had used a substance that he was not tested for. They know when they will be tested, and how much time it takes for substance to leave the body. Guys like this do not take roids from Mexico, they take real custom made sh#t legit docs work on.
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:38am PT
In another note, Sparks writes, "Among the Court's concerns is the fact that USADA has targeted Armstrong for prosecution many years after his alleged doping violations occurred, and intends to consolidate his case with those of several other alleged offenders, including - incredibly - several over whom USA Cycling and USOC apparently have no authority whatsoever. Further, if Armstrong's allegations are true, and USADA is promising lesser sanctions against other allegedly offending riders in exchange for their testimony against Armstrong, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that USADA is motivated more by politics and a desire for media attention than faithful adherence to its obligations to USOC."




And this is too good to pass up:

Most here that adore and defend LA are in the 99% group that totally disdains and hate Wall Street.
    The Chief
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:10am PT
I was thinking? Oh yeah, my brain did it? :-)

Armstrong is HUGE, he's a monster, bigger than anything around.

Is this really gonna happen?

Or I bet somebody is gonna put a stop to it?

Obama??????
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:16am PT
Long live Lance! he is the best no matter what.

John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:26am PT
You'd have to see the quality and the quantity of the females following him on the TdF to fully appreciate the magic of the LA Brand. I'm Jelly.

@ The Chief - Why all the rage here? On a climbing forum? Did you take it to a forum where you'll get a real reaction? Can't see it. Put it at the thread below. Should be awesome. Like your Battleship Wisconsin Photo.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?post=4125568;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Personally, I dunno where the Frick they get off doing this so much later. Like the powers that be suddenly decide Al Gore really did win in 2000. You'd think there would be some sort of limit.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:31am PT
@ The Chief - Why all the rage here? On a climbing forum?

Oh, God, I didn't even think of the bike forums..... Can you imagine the butthurt rants of holier than thou, never-has-beens over there?! I bet it puts Chief to shame.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:32am PT
They know when they will be tested

actually they don't always know. If they are leading a race or won a stage/race then they know. There are some pretty funny stories about guys sitting in resturants (or just in public) and having to get tested.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:34am PT
His life was becoming ALL about doping instead of about cancer, charity, etc. If he did it or not, it sucks that others keep on this stuff constantly until someone is defeated emotionally and has given years of their life doing nothing but defending themselves. Until I have been in a similar position, I do not know if I would fight to the death or just want to move on.

But I guess The Chief has been there and fought to the bitter end. How else would he know that LA is guilty.

Guilty until proven innocent is becoming the norm in our society. Too bad for those guys (LA or not) who are innocent and get reamed (literally?).

Dave
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:07am PT
Tempest in a teapot.

Athletic excellence is about human performance not body chemistry.




What gets me is DQing people for testing positive for weed.
Hell, if they still win they should get their medal adorned with little bud clusters!
Silver

Ice climber
OLPP
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:09am PT
If in fact he did dope and the guys who were going to testify against him were on those teams it seems to me that LA made those sh#t bags a hell of a lot of money after winning seven of those races and having almost the same group of guys playing support.

How much money did big George make after supporting a 7 time TDF winner? How much did Popovich make? How much did Roid Landis make? How much did TyRoid Hamilton Make?

The butt hurt guys are Frankly Andreau and Johnathan Vaughters who thought they had the ability to win those races if everyone was clean. Those two dip shits couldn't figure out they were the only clean guys and everyone else was doping.

LA made a lot of guys rich and apparently not rich enough, and those guys in the end turned on him I suspect.

I think Lance played it out perfect he was given a life time ban after he retired. He never tested positive and neither did his teammates until they went to other teams and realized they couldn't get the same juice and took sh#t that could be detected and we all know the results of that Roid Landis Liar and TyRoid Hamilton huh.

The big one is no testimony no story so they can say all they want to whomever but no ones story will ever be part of a public record and there is why Lance just bailed and said screw it. People can do like they are and I am right here and speculate all you want but he will never take a jury stand he will never have a public record and all those bitter dopers who felt cheated will never get their day in court. Bravo Lance well played and its like a double f*#k you to all of them f*#k you I'm retired and could care less about a life ban f*#k you, you don't get to tell your story in a court of law and create a public record against me.

Good lawyers!

I think his lawyers are on dope and crushing the field right now. In fact this just in they are 2 steps ahead of the US doping agency with one K to go.

EDIT:

Anyone remember Tommy Simpson?

He popped literally on the side of Mont Vaunt Tu (sp) there is a placard where he died from a methamphetamine overdose on the road up the mountain.

Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:10am PT
Weed must be a performance enhancing substance.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:13am PT
The butt hurt guys are Frankly Andreau and Johnathan Vaughters who thought they had the ability to win those races if everyone was clean. Those two dip shits couldnt figure out they were the only clean guys and everyone else was doping.

Vaughters admitted to doping.
Silver

Ice climber
OLPP
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:15am PT
See this is what I mean even that twig armed doper doped. How could one keep track of them all? Thats right they are all dopers.

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:16am PT
I doped. It felt good.
Silver

Ice climber
OLPP
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:18am PT
Jebus I could tell that night you were on the dope.

Your movement was fast, precise and well you never seem to tire and were always game for another run to the bar.

You recovered fast and were at the crag early the next day.

locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:18am PT

Lying and cheating is the "Norm"...

The dude's a modern day hero!!!...
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:20am PT
Just so everyone is clear... blood doping is nothing like steroids. 'dope' just happens to be what people from the 50's called anything schedule 1.
Silver

Ice climber
OLPP
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:21am PT
Jeebus are you doping blood or just doping the brain?
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:22am PT
So it's different from the medical dope that's an important part of the bicycle community around here.

( at least it's important among the Mountain Bike community )
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:22am PT
Thank you, Obvious Man! [@GDavis]

50's are before my time, brudda.

Excuse me while I pretend to smoke some reefer.

Nah, Silver, I'm off the dope currently. Might get tested and stripped of my titles.

But, yes, brain doping. I find it gets in the way.
Silver

Ice climber
OLPP
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:23am PT
Chaz are you saying the recreational wanna be mountain biker who club rides on the weekend is doping now too?

No way crazy!

EDIT

Jeebus no one can take your Luche Libre titles man you won those in that donkey bar in mexico legit.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:25am PT
Hahahaha... Lucho Libre is pretty close. That was a good Halloween, smoked a fat Cuban spliff with Fidel.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:34am PT
. I think Lance played it out perfect he was given a life time ban after he retired. He never tested positive and

He has tested positive- his samples now test positive for EPO.
And they will test positive for all the other stuff also - he was infusing plasma and involved in some very complex masking tricks.
They save the samples for future testing - it was not a one time testing thing back than or now. He knew that and everyone else knew that also.


I can't believe so many otherwise intellegent and good people are justifying this lying psychopaths actions.

No not everyone cheats!
I know good people at every level who refused to cheat - who were good and honest people who were taught not to lie and not to cheat and not to fill their bodies with poison.
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:40am PT
From the AP:

The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency erased 14 years of Lance Armstrong's career Friday — including his record seven Tour de France titles — and banned him for life from the sport that made him a hero to millions of cancer survivors after concluding he used banned substances.

USADA said it expected cycling's governing body to take similar action, but the International Cycling Union was measured in its response, saying it first wanted a full explanation on why Armstrong should relinquish titles he won from 1999 through 2005.

At least the ICU doesn't appear to be the same breed of hysterical witch hunters.

Curt
Gorgeous George

Trad climber
Los Angeles, California
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:43am PT
The lesson here? I'M A DOPE FOR NOT DOPING!

Hey, can anyone do LA a favor and introduce him to Greg Mortenson? Now that would make a dynamic duo. Think of the potential!
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:49am PT
All of this just confirms stuff I already know:

 "Pro" cycling is a pathetic soap opera. Professional Wresting has less petty drama and more consistent enforcement of the rules than cycling.

 Sheryl Crow is hot.
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:49am PT
^^^^
So did Frankie.

http://www.bikingbis.com/2006/09/12/former-cyclist-and-oln-commentator-frankie-andreu-admits-to-doping/

Some of my friends joke that they use performance "dehancing" substances!


ps. and they know "dehancing" isn't a word.


edit. Hey, where did that "Vaughters admitted" comment go?
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:59am PT
edit. Hey, where did that "Vaughters admitted" comment go?

still there.
Fletcher

Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:01am PT
A more nuanced perspective (if anyone is interested in nuance anymore! Ha ha!):

http://redkiteprayer.com/2012/08/endgame/

Eric
Vegasclimber

Trad climber
Las Vegas, NV.
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:14am PT
More then anything, I am concerned about the level of power that this agency has, or acts like it has. Regardless of my personal beliefs, the fact is that not one - not ONE - piece of evidence has been released to back their claims. I'm not from the show me state, but you're going to have to show me.
I have plenty of faith in modern science, so if you can show me he cheated, then I will accept it, realize that LA is a dirty doper....and then go on with my life not really giving a sh#t. But until then, I BELIEVE THAT A MAN IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY.
Yes, I enjoyed watching him beat the piss out of everyone year after year, but in the big scheme of things, who f*#king cares? A result either way isn't going to change your life or mine. It's just another "hot button issue" for people to fight over.
What bothers me is that the USADA is stripping people of titles without legal right to do so. the IOC has repeatedly told the USADA that they do not have the authority to strip any cyclists titles. However, this organization is so bloated with taxpayer dollars that it just stomps over and bullies anyone they can to get them to go along with their actions.
Basically, the USADA is stripping titles of a race that happens in another country. They charge people and then do not allow that charge to be contended in court. Once they make a decision, it's final, and you have NO right of recourse or appeal. Yes, they allow you to have "arbitration" - to them, that means "We are going to let you sit here while we tell you that you're screwed, and make more money off the taxpayers while you pay more to your lawyers. Then we will let you go home."
At the end of the day, they simply do not have the right to strip Lance's titles. That right resides with the IOC.
What Lance did here was a very smart move on his part. I'd be tired of it too, on the heels of a 2 year federal investigation that didn't find jack sh#t. The whole reason this went to the USADA was because of the fact that they cannot be overruled.
What he has done here, is forced the IOC to back up their claim that the USADA has no jurisdiction over the riders. The IOC has the resources and the power to negate the USADA's actions and restore Lance's titles. The IOC is guaranteed to demand that the positive tests and other evidence be turned over to them, prior to allowing the ban to be instated permanently. Let these two fight it out in the international courts, while Lance gets back to running the cancer organization that is his focus and raising his kids.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:23am PT
...He has tested positive- his samples now test positive for EPO.
And they will test positive for all the other stuff also - he was infusing plasma and involved in some very complex masking tricks.

Source please..?

Thanks for the coherent comments from Vegasclimber.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:28am PT
If the USADA had any bloodwork which proved doping this would have been an open and shut case concluded years ago. Instead it's clear they have no bloodwork evidence of any kind and only have testimony that he doped. From my perspective it's basically irrelevant whether he did or didn't; what is relevant is that an anti-doping agency built on a science and regiem of relentless analytical bloodworkups is able to provide condemning bloodwork or they can't - but conclusive bloodwork is the only basis by which such an agency should be able to make accusations actionable, not hearsay.
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:32am PT
I haven't been following this story (and I'm not sure I even care), but it's hard not to wonder about a few things.

Can anybody explain:

 Why is this coming up now, years after Armstrong won? Do they really test blood years after the fact? Why?

 Is there any physical evidence? How valid is it?

I don't know anything about this alphabet-soup of organizations that are involved in this story, but it all sounds like something out of Kafka.

If these actions are indented to make pro cycling more credible, they are hardly serving that purpose by invoking dubious accusations years after the fact.

Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:32am PT
Prosecutorial overreach and abuse is the real threat here. Count USADA as just another over zealous agency among the out of control, alphabet soup myriad levels of government and bureaucracy that Americans are subjected to.
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:34am PT
This doesn't change anything. Everyone has their breaking point, he has finally reached his. It is important to note he has been fighting this battle for over 10 years. That has got to take a toll on you, especially when they have yet to provide physical evidence, and once again it comes down to testimony of people who literally have had it out for him for years by their own admission. His chances of getting a fair hearing went out the window a long time ago. In addition, USADAs clearly stalking / unhealthy obsession is a great example of an obvious personal vendetta that had nothing to do with the actual facts, but became a personal crusade by those who wanted to be Elliot Ness.

I am not saying he is clean or dirty, I am saying the guy is a champion of the like we can only wish to see again. What he has done for the sport of cycling and what he has done for cancer victims is so far beyond anyone else's contribution, that we all owe him thanks, not some bull$hit righteous condemnation.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:37am PT
I don't know anything about this alphabet-soup of organizations that are involved in this story, but it all sounds like something out of Kafka.

I don't really know the particulars either. For an enforcement agency, Lance is obviously a big fish - the biggest - the kind they would wet their government trousers over. To me it seems like if you went fishing and failed to catch anything, so you decide to just throw in a stick of dynamite at the end of the day. Pretty graceless and sour grapes at this point.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:38am PT
+100 for Vegasclimber's comment. I stand with you VC.

The idea that "everyone dopes" makes banning one person all the more ridiculous. If they ALL dope, then why ban one guy?
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:39am PT
Okay, I've finally found the perfect summary of the whole business. It's from a piece by Michael Rosenberg in Sports Illustrated.

Even if you believe his accusers, as I do, you must admit: The accusers make you want to wash your hands. This was a case between a likely drug cheat and obsessive, unlikeable prosecutors, fueled by other drug cheats as witnesses. If this were divorce court and I were a judge, I'd give all the money to the dog.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:42am PT
a legal question?

here are the charges the USADA is charging him with (from cyclingnews)

//The anti-doping rule violations for which Mr. Armstrong is being sanctioned are:

(1) Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.

(2) Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices), testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.

(3) Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and corticosteroids.

(4) Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone, and cortisone.

(5) Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule violations.

Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed//


Some of them are criminal offenses. Now the Federal Govt. couldn't press charges against him for lack of evidence. So does the USADA only have to a "preponderance of the evidence"? Or can they just rule how they wish with no legal recourse for the accused (beyond arbitration)? Is it similar to civil vs criminal case?
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:43am PT
Prosecutorial overreach and abuse is the real threat here.

I fear unconstrained and overzealous law enforcement far more than I fear a single petty criminal.

Due process is a vital American principle that too many people don't comprehend.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:48am PT
As someone who has quite a bit of personal experience with prosecutorial overreach, and the personal cost of fighting it, this case saddens me greatly. Dougal Haston wrote in Mountain magazine about 40 years ago that whenever great men appear, there will always be little men to belittle them. This looks to me rather like that.

I wish Armstrong had continued the fight, even though the deck was stacked against him, but doing so wears a person down, and it is virtually impossible to fully recover a reputation after an accusation, even a false one. The USADA, like the NCAA, has virtually none of the fundamental checks on their power that we would consider "due process" under the Fifth Amendment. They have none of the limits of legal rules of evidence, and there is no presumption of innocence. Once they accuse someone, the accused must prove they didn't dope. How can anyone do that? The mere accusation, coupled with winning, will always create doubt.

While I accept the possibility that he was, in fact, doping in some way, shape or form, this matter still smells of jealousy and pettiness, not justice.

John
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:50am PT
. More then anything, I am concerned about the level of power that this agency has, or acts like it has. Regardless of my personal beliefs, the fact is that not one - not ONE - piece of evidence has been released to back their claims. I'm not from the show me state, but you're going to have to show me. I have plenty of faith in modern science, so if you can show me he cheated, then I will accept it, realize that LA is a dirty doper....and then go on with my life not really giving a sh#t. But until then, I BELIEVE THAT A MAN IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY. Yes, I enjoyed watching him beat the piss out of e



Lol..

Ya gotta give LA credit - he is smart..
Lol
Finally when he is busted from 10 different angles he throws himself on his own sword of rightousness and dies the martyr....

What a bunch of dupes...
Binks

climber
Uranus
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:52am PT
I think the charges are B.S. against LA whether he doped or not. It was 7 years ago and his victories should stand.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:57am PT
However, this organization is so bloated with taxpayer dollars that it just stomps over and bullies anyone they can to get them to go along with their actions.

Pretty typical of the government these days. No limit to the spending. Or a time limit. A weak President at the top.

I've seen Lances Pool Times, His run results, he's about the greatest athlete of our times. The self-righteous, seek to justify their miserable existence by trashing true greatness. They'll interpret his abandonment of his defense as an admission of guilt. F*#k all of them.

I can't wait to see him at Kona.

Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:58am PT


Tom Head, Texas Judge: Obama Reelection Could Lead To 'Civil War and the Incarceration of Lance Armstrong,' I'm Ready To 'Take Up Arms'
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:08pm PT
. -profile doping cases - including that of the Olympic sprinter Marion Jones and other athletes involved in the sprawling Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative case, known as Balco - Tygart and the antidoping agency were basing their case not on a positive drug test but rather on other supporting evidence. Armstrong seized on that in his statement.

He said again and again that he had never tested positive - though he did test positive at the 1999 Tour for a corticosteroid, for which he produced a backdated doctor's prescription.

Armstrong also said the case against him was flimsy without that physical evidence.

"Regardless of what Travis Tygart says, there is zero physical evidence to support his outlandish and heinous claims," Armstrong said. "The only physical evidence here is the hundreds of controls I have passed with flying colors."

But even without a positive test, the antidoping agency appeared set to move forward with arbitration. It claimed to have more than 10 eyewitnesses who would testify that Armstrong used banned blood transfusions, the blood booster EPO, testosterone and other drugs to win the Tour. Some of Armstrong's closest teammates, including George Hincapie - one of the most respected American riders - were also expected to testify against him.

The antidoping agency also said it had blood test results of Armstrong's from 2009 and 2010 that were consistent with doping.

This is not the first time a top cyclist has suffered such a career implosion - it has been common in cycling in recent years, as doping has crippled the sport. Several recent Tour de France champions have been found guilty of doping, including the American rider Floyd Landis and Alberto Contador of Spain. But none of them had the stature of Armstrong.

Although it is possible that the International Cycling Union, the world's governing body for cycling, will appeal his suspension to the Court of Arbitration for Sport because it had battled over jurisdiction over this case, Armstrong's choice to accept his sanction tarnishes the athletic achievements of an athlete who inspired millions with his story of cancer survival.

On Friday in Switzerland, the cycling union said in a statement that it would take no action until American officials presented their case to the association, and that it would have "no further comment" until that time.

Armstrong was already a world-champion cyclist when he was found to have testicular cancer in 1996, at 25. He overcame the odds to beat the disease. He then showed amazing strength and resilience by returning to cycling to win the Tour in 1999, gaining a mass of followers with almost a gravitational pull. They idolized him for showing that cancer could not stop him.

His legion of fans grew each year after that, and each year he won the Tour for them, turning himself into a star that transcended sports.

But in the shadows of his wild success were accusations that he had doped to win. In 1999, he tested positive for a banned corticosteroid on his way to winning his first Tour.

In 2004, the book "L.A. Confidential," published only in French, linked Armstrong to doping, including claims by his team's former massage therapist that he had asked her for makeup to hide needle tracks on his arm because they were evidence of his doping. In 2005, a former personal assistant claimed he found a steroid in Armstrong's medicine cabinet.

Also in the mid-2000s,a French newspaper reported that six of Armstrong's urine samples from the 1999 Tour had tested positive retroactively for the banned blood booster EPO. The strict standards for laboratory testing were not followed on those samples, so nothing ever came of those results.

Through the years, the accusations became more and more entangled. A Texas-based insurance company tried to withhold a $5 million performance bonus from Armstrong for his victory at the 2004 Tour because it said Armstrong had doped. Armstrong won a settlement.

In testimony in that case, Armstrong's former teammate, Frankie Andreu, and Andreu's wife, Betsy, said they had overheard Armstrong admitting to doctors when he was undergoing cancer treatment that he had used steroids, human growth hormone and EPO while cycling.

The accusations followed Armstrong wherever he went, but gained pace in recent years, though Armstrong's last Tour victory continued to fade into the horizon.

Landis, who was stripped of the 2006 Tour title for doping, in 2010 accused Armstrong of doping and being involved in a doping scheme while the two were teammates. Last year, Tyler Hamilton - another Armstrong top lieutenant - told CBS that Armstrong and others on Armstrong's teams were involved in a complex doping scheme that involved code words and secret cellphones.

Through it all, Armstrong denied doping. Even a two-year federal investigation into Armstrong that examined possible doping-related crimes seemed to come up empty. It folded earlier this year with no charges brought.

Armstrong, who retired from cycling last year, was not as fortunate this time.

He could have chosen to go to arbitration, which would have meant that witnesses could testify against him in a hearing possibly open to the public. Instead, he chose to bow out of the process.

In doing so, he emphasized that his Tour victories would always be his.

Everybody is lying but Lance..
Lol
Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber
San Francisco
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:13pm PT
Melki Cabrera is the maggot I am pissed at! Although the Giants are doing well now, the team would benefit from his presence.
Are they gonna take the All Star game away from NL now?
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
. In testimony in that case, Armstrong's former teammate, Frankie Andreu, and Andreu's wife, Betsy, said they had overheard Armstrong admitting to doctors when he was undergoing cancer treatment that he had used steroids, human growth hormone and EPO while cycling.


Always new that was why he got cancer in the first place.
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:22pm PT
Their big testimony is they "overheard" it? What a joke.
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:40pm PT
I find it interesting that no one was upset when Contador was stripped of his TdF title from two years ago.
Is it because lance is an 'merican?
Were you guys upset when Ivan Basso was banned for two years? I'd say not.
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:43pm PT
Thinks that's a joke Roughster?

Don't you have a variety of friends and their relatives around when you are talking to your doctor?

;)
jstan

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:44pm PT
Frankly this is going to cause people to be less interested next year in the TDF. That's the real bottom line.
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:47pm PT
Fools in these Panties-in-a-bunch agencies are only proving that they can find a case against whomever they point the light at, thus knocking down all the heroes and leaving them with no sport that anybody is going to want to watch, attend or buy swag about.

Good luck with that. Horse is out of the barn. Better to have "Don't ask, don't tell" where you win by keeping up with beatings tests and using stuff that's not illegal yet. Otherwise what can you do, give em lie detector tests once a year?

better to go rockclimbing and test drugs than go cycling and get drug tested

Peace

Karl
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
Frankly this is going to cause people to be less interested next year in the TDF

disagree. TdF will always be popular in Europe
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
Looks like he told a private concern, with an axe to grind, and no legal jurisdiction or process to go piss off.
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 12:52pm PT
find it interesting that no one was upset when Contador was stripped of his TdF title from two years ago.
Is it because lance is an 'merican?
Were you guys upset when Ivan Basso was banned for two years? I'd say not.

Was the USADA involved? Was there physical evidence?

Sure Americans care more about American cyclists than those from other countries. So what?

Armstrong is no longer contesting the USADA. Why should he, if he's no longer competing at the TDF level?. Nothing prevents the USADA from releasing enough of its evidence to convince the skeptics. While sanctimonious sportswriters will doubtless be orgasmic at the prospect of taking down another hero, the comments on this thread show that many of us don't accept the "he's guilty because we said so" explanation on its own.

I also find it interesting that some say that not all riders at the highest level are doing this. Prove it! That's what the USADA is making everyone they accuse do.

John
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:02pm PT
Recently, I have been in email conversations with a Taco Stander about climbing, people and such. But not about Armstrong or Landis or anybody else in the cycling world. (I introduced a former Boy Scout companion, Greg Mount, to bicycle racing, and he was one of the first Americans to hit the European circuit).

I told this fellow Supertopian that I entered my first race (San Francisco Bay Area High School Circuit) in 1972, a Hill Climb in El Cerrito. I just wanted the ten bucks reward money to buy a lid (bag of grass to the uninitiated).

I literally came in inches behind numbers one, two and three, but I still got a Yellow Ribbon for fourth place (I think I still have it somewhere in a box). The other three ahead of me had all the biz, cleats, bicycle shorts etc. I had tennies and cut-off jeans. I was on my late brother's Pogligahi (which is still in the family), we also had a Masi and Bianchi, all Campy gear.

So our fellow Taco Stander jokes with me in an email that I was a pro on drugs. Hah hah, except I did not win the $10. I entered a couple of more races, but climbing was my first love. Football (soccer my second). I tried turning pro in Europe when I was 26, but a) "Americans don't play football", and b) 26!

Most footie pros start at 14 or so as apprentices in Europe. But I had the dream (semi-pro teams: Harrow Borough in England, San Francisco Celtic, trial with Galway United and reserves on the Golden Gate Gales, the old ASL American Soccer League, and of course, a bench warmer at Cal State Hayward/East Bay... I was 27 & 28, the other lads called me Uncle Pat, but I was still the third fastest and one of the best passers at Cal State).

I do not know if Lance Armstrong doped, and I do not really care. If he cheated other "would be" Tour winners, who probably cheated as well, even taking drugs so they would not have to stop and pee, that is his conscience he has to live with.

Maybe I should find that Yellow Ribbon from my first race and burn it, except, I was never high the few times I raced.

(Yeah, I climbed on acid, mushrooms and mescaline back in the day, not smart, but...).

If Armstrong cheated with various enhancers, he has to live with that, I still admire him for his cancer foundation.

Which poster said it earlier, "A mountain out of a molehill".
dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:04pm PT
Frankly this is going to cause people to be less interested next year in the TDF. That's the real bottom line.

Not I.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
So, who'd Armstrong cheat out of a legitimate drug-free TDF win?

Ulrich?

Pantani?

Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
[...] no one was upset when Contador was stripped of his TdF title from two years ago.

I wasn't upset because I don't know who Contador is, or what happened.

But the name "Contador" sounds European, so of course he was guilty of something.

John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:17pm PT

Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
. 24, 2012 - 01:07pm PT So, who'd Armstrong cheat out of a legitimate drug-free TDF win?

Ulrich?

Pantani? e


You guys don't get it!

This POS is no hero.

He cheated your son or your brother!

Do you want your child, who perhaps falls in love with the TDF, while sitting on your lap to have to stack 10 different drugs and dope his blood 5 different ways to be able to enjoy competition?
Who gives a f*#k if they have to go back all the way to a Po-dunk fun ride in shitsville America to find a Champion.

This can not be about who has the most money, who is willing to lie the most, and who is the best cheater? Can it?

What the hell are you guys teaching your kids?
No wonder this world is so f*#ked...
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
Frankly this is going to cause people to be less interested next year in the TDF. That's the real bottom line.

Particularly if the ICU agrees and strips Armstrong of his titles. That will basically invalidate the TDF and perhaps even the entire sport.

Curt
Gunkie

Trad climber
East Coast US
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:24pm PT
...many of us don't accept the "he's guilty because we said so" explanation on its own.

I also find it interesting that some say that not all riders at the highest level are doing this. Prove it! That's what the USADA is making everyone they accuse do.

That's the bugaboo for me. I, too, say 'prove it'. Confessed liars and cheats testifying doesn't do the trick for me. And even unabashed testimony from George Hincapie doesn't flip the switch. Let's see some real test results. Otherwise this is a travesty and certainly not worth the US tax dollars that funded this expedition to nowhere.
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:28pm PT
If I started calling you a douche, liar, and doper every day for the next 10 years, what would you do? What if that included contacting past, current, and potential future clients/employers? What if I had legal power to compel you to reply every time I made a claim? What if I proceeded to push for legal cases against you going into double, triple, quaternary jeopardy, failing again and again to prove anything, never producing any evidence other than "I overheard something", but just kept at it because I have unlimited resources and power related to the issue?

Do you think eventually you would tire of it? Threaten your own counter suits? Maybe even start to ignore it? Maybe even say, "You do whatever you want, I am done with you"?

Lance is no longer racing, it is/was USADAs unreasonable pursuit of this topic that is the issue. The Feds dropped their charges against Lance for lack of evidence. USADAs circumstantial case at best relies on witness testimony of people with axes to grind or those facing similar bulldog / intimidation tactics from USADA as Lance has endured for the last DECADE (George, Johan, etc.)

Implication that Lance made his team mates do PEDs because he asked is ridiculous. Those people did what they did by their own free choice. They could have walked away or, if it was true, immediately reported Lance to governing bodies. I find it interesting that these scumbags only come out of the woodwork after they are busted or their career is over. Coincidence? I think not.

For everyone saying "fanboys", I would challenge you to think about "innocent until proven guilty". Lance has never been given a fair shake during this and that can not be denied.
Karen

Trad climber
So Cal urban sprawl Hell
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
Dope or no dope, I won't miss the tdf for anything!


So guys, you think any doping will go on during the upcoming Vuelta?
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:35pm PT
. Their big testimony is they "overheard" it? What a joke.

No its not a joke.
It's pretty damn far from a joke.
That was just one of many
These are his close freinds and team mates.
Why would they lie under oath?
Wouldn't they be more likely to tell the truth under oath?
Why would they purger themselves.

Only a very small amount of the evidence has been released and it is already plenty
The doctors that worked with him have already been banned for life - that alone is enough for me.
Patrick Sawyer

climber
Originally California now Ireland
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:36pm PT
People, regardless of whatever Armstrong used illicit substances, it is a huge blot on the sport, a sport that has become synonymous with drug taking, blood transfusion, and as I mentioned even drugs to stop your urinary tract from wanting to get off the bike, etc.

None of these people - the riders, teams, drug testers and what not - IMO, have not done themselves any proud. How to clean it up? When there is so much money, prestige and accolades at stake, the cheaters will find a way.

Sad, isn't it, and it is not only in cycling.

EDIT, for example, business. I know of one Irish billionaire, (that lied to me personally) that used a 'brown envelope' to gain his fortune. When there is money and fame to gain, a lot of people are unscrupulous. Sport, business, whatever, they are out there. Bad parental guidance? I don't know, I have enough on my plate, to really worry about these people (talk about them on a forum, yes, but really worry, no).
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:39pm PT
Curt, you are looking at it from an american perspective. as I said earlier, TdF will always be popular in Europe. Armstrong wasn't the most popular guy while racing on the continent.
Roughster

Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:49pm PT
The fact that the TdF will still be popular in the US IMO is due to Lance.
stevep

Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
Aug 24, 2012 - 01:54pm PT
You guys don't get it!

This POS is no hero.

He cheated your son or your brother!

Do you want your child, who perhaps falls in love with the TDF, while sitting on your lap to have to stack 10 different drugs and dope his blood 5 different ways to be able to enjoy competition?
Who gives a f*#k if they have to go back all the way to a Po-dunk fun ride in shitsville America to find a Champion.

This can not be about who has the most money, who is willing to lie the most, and who is the best cheater? Can it?

What the hell are you guys teaching your kids?
No wonder this world is so f*#ked...

Well, there was plenty of doping in bike racing before Lance, and there has been at least some post-Lance. So it is not as if he is somehow solely responsible for the whole mess. And the pros I have talked to recently sdo think things are cleaner now than they were. I'd rather all the effort that is being put into this was instead put into continuing to improve the current situation rather then re-hashing this business.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
- His use of doctors later banned.
 Some men of high credibility ready to tell what really happened
 His old blood samples being restested today when the ability to discover substances in the blood is much higher
 Armstrong accepting the ban

It's all out in the open now. You have to be blinded by ideology or ignorant lojality to not get the picture. He cheated. Many have been caught the last few years and it's necessary to catch the cheaters if you want to get a cleaner sport.

Armstrong was popular for a long time in Europe. He still is among many Europeans, a lot of Norwegians among them.

Edited: Jebus - are you being an angry whining cry baby now?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
Geeze, somebody please plug the bleeding anuses of the world. You can look at the entirety of life as an indictment and keep whining, or get on with living your life in the manner you desire. Whoever told you the world was always fair, or even should be, did you a terrible disservice and now I get to read the pouting, naive, and angry drivel over the death of another supposed Superman.

I hope Lance laughs all the way to the bank with all his 1%-er buddies, lord knows, doping or not, the guy has worked harder than all the leaking douche nozzles of supertopo put together.

Man! I don't even have to try to write this shit! I hope somebody else is enjoying my reign over the mewling cry babies, cuz I know I am.

Stupid Americans!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
His old blood samples being restested today when the ability to discover substances in the blood is much higher
Armstrong accepting the ban

It's all out in the open now. You have to be blinded by ideology or ignorant lojality to not get the picture. He cheated. Many have been caught the last few years and it's necessary to catch the cheaters if you want to get a cleaner sport.

They better retest the sample of whomever they are retroactively awarding those TDF titles too until they find somebody beyond suspicion. Fair is fair.

Can you imagine authorities and media of all sorts could look back at the past with x-ray perfect vision. I guarantee every president we've ever had would be retroactively impeached

Peace

karl
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
I think it's all very Tragic
They should just leave him alone
He won, they tested him, and he passed all tests then

That should be the end of the Story, 7 wins

I will never accept them taking his wins away, he won them, you can't take that away no matter what he may have done.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
The USADA bans Armstrong for life and strips him of his championship rides (which they don't have the authority to do).

Since this is a very bold and harsh punishment, shouldn't they publish all the evidence which they have accumulated? They were not shy about publishing their illegitimate punishment.

Also, when are we gonna see Willard Romney's income tax returns?

Does Armstrong have hidden assets in Swiss bank accounts? Has he been seen in the Caymans?

PTFU or STFU.

Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:41pm PT
. l, there was plenty of doping in bike racing before Lance, and there has been at least some post-Lance. So it is not as if he is somehow solely responsible for the whole mess. And the pros I have talked to recently sdo think things are cleaner now than they were. I'd rather all the effort that is being put into this was instead put into continuing to improve the current situation rather then re-hashing this business.

LA knew full well samples were being saved and that science and information could catch up to him. This has been an ongoing deal. Part of cleaning up the sport now is looking at the past and figuring out what occured. And this douch, who it seems was not just a cheater but an active ring leader pushing his teammates to use, will be a lesson for a few honest kids who are watching this right now.

This stuff goes all the way down - I and a few other friends spent many hours in the gym as kids and never touched steroids. Many, many kids started hitting the juice and lying about it - one guy who got hooked pretty fast has had one heart attack and a stroke already - a real nice guy but an absolute liar. I've seen how the nicest guys will lie to their dead grandmother about this stuff - very insidious.
Another guy who was very involved dealing the stuff in high school is in jail in the States right now for trafficking cocaine to Canada.
So this is much more than a stupid Tour Tital.
As MJ would say - It's about the children..

Looking at some of the other evidence it looks like LA was involved in pay offs when some of his results did turn up positve.
I will bet anybody anything that some of that cancer money was used for pay offs.
Far more money was spent covering sh#t up here than I bet anyone realises.

So this isn't just about douchbag LA.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
. Aug 24, 2012 - 02:36pm PT I think it's all very Tragic They should just leave him alone He won, they tested him, and he passed all tests then

That should be the end of the Story, 7 wins

I will never accept them taking his wins away, he won them, you can't take that away no matter what he may have


Oh no...
My last hope for another objective thinker goes down in flames..

There really is no hope for the world.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
Somebody call a waaaahhhhhmmmbuulllaance!
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
Viva le Tour!

They got what they wanted. Lance caved and they use that as their evidence without having to put the rest out to public scutiny. As I said up front, doing all this after the fact is lame. They damn well better go back and test every American Cyclist now and strip everyone that fails a retroactive drug test or has someone rat them out for personal gain.

Oh that's right, they can't really strip non-US titles. The UCI does that. Doh!

I don't condone PED's, but this is being handled really poorly all the way around. Nobody is going to win when the dust settles.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:51pm PT
Riley

This time I think Dr. F is just redefining "by fair means" to fit his own feelings.

Edit: LA should in this case be judged and banned for his rulebreaking actions and not for the man he is. I hope he has the support of some close friends. He needs them now.
Dolomite

climber
Anchorage
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:54pm PT
Thanks Fletcher, for posting this:

http://redkiteprayer.com/2012/08/endgame/

Though there's not much evidence of anyone here reading it. The point Padraig makes in the article that I found most pertinent is that if you take LA out of the standings for the seven TdF wins, of the remaining 21 riders in the top three places, only ONE is not a proven (not by hearsay) doper.

It's a mess that stripping LA of the wins does NOT solve or even begin to remedy. These idiotic ruling bodies should be moving forward.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:57pm PT
They must have retested his samples by now
and they are Not claiming that they found anything
It's all hearsay and being associated with certain Doctors

I'm not claiming that he didn't dope, he most certainly did
But!
He hasn't been caught,
He won those races without being caught for doping

He raced, he won, he was tested, and he passed,
end of story


There is No hope, this is true
climbera5

Trad climber
Sacramento
Aug 24, 2012 - 02:58pm PT
Can you name the new 7 winners of the TDF? Who will care anyway. Do you think Andy Schleck wakes up every morning thinking "I won the 2011 TDF!" NOBODY will think that other than Andy's mom. Point is, you can't erase what LA has accomplished and I don't think the USADA can make him their new druggie poster boy. It won't stick. Maybe in France but not here.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
Okay, okay, I take back what I said about Americans being stupid. I got blinded by my love for Werner.

Here in America, we also take a more practical view when it comes to doping: http://www.examiner.com/article/oakland-pitcher-bartolo-colon-is-latest-mlb-player-suspended-for-steroid-use

Baseball pitcher Bartolo Colon just gets a 50 game suspension, none of this retroactive, petty ass stripping away of victories nonsense for his doping. That's good old, keeping your eye on what really counts Americana.

The USADA should move to Europe.
all in jim

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:05pm PT
Most people want a hero who wins more races, hits more home runs, catches more touchdowns and wins more medals.

We buy the bikes, the hats and the baseballs (well maybe not you, specifically, but can you hear what I'm saying?) We watch the events. We are partly to blame for making our heros so big (literally and figuratively!)

donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
I would feel better about Armstrong if he would come clean. Arrogantly and vehemently calling it a witch hunt AFTER he decides not to contest is beyond the pale. Everyone deserves his day in court but by refusing to contest LA avoids his. He obviously is aware of the preponderance of the evidence against him- a de facto admission of guilt if there ever was one.
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:08pm PT
It's all these so called scientist lab coats faults.

Those slide rule wankers made this sh!t!!!!

Throw em all in jail.

Heh heh heh ......
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:10pm PT
It costs time and money to fight these charges

He has been fighting them for years now
He just gave up, which is admirable in a way, you can't fight a system that is focused on destroying you, they will win no matter what you do.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
I would feel better about Armstrong if he would come clean. Arrogantly and vehemently calling it a witch hunt AFTER he decides not to contest is beyond the pale. Everyone deserves his day in court but by refusing to contest LA avoids his. He obviously is aware of the preponderance of the evidence against him- a de facto admission of guilt if there ever was one.

The USADA isn't the place to get an acquittal. As I understand it, Lance would actually have a chance in federal court. USADA has an almost 100% record of convictions (50 out of 52 doping cases). Ain't no Mark Geragos getting him out that hot water.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:15pm PT
Dr F you are usually reasonable. Anyone who thinks an ego maniac like Armstrong who has financiial resources would not fight the charges IF he thought he had a chance of prevailing is not being reasonable.
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
^^^^ You should read the post directly above yours. Armstrong had absolutely no chance in a USADA arbitration.

Curt
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:28pm PT
The federal court couldn't find enough evidence of conspiracy to charge him, but the USADA could. Pffft.

He did it, but they missed the window. This smacks of revenge and grandstanding now. They should have let go and focused on the future.

Professional sports sucks the soul out of everything it touchs.
Elcapinyoazz

Social climber
Joshua Tree
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:44pm PT
I'd love to see the Chain of Custody forms for those samples the USADA is saying are "consistent with doping" (WTF ever that weasel words phrase is supposed to mean).

If I were a lawyer for LA, that would be where I would start. You could probably blow holes a mile wide in the COC by now, after 10 years of shipping those things around.
GDavis

Social climber
SOL CAL
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:50pm PT
You could probably blow holes a mile wide in the COC by now


heh.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
Seems there's a lot of discomfort in America over this. It happened so long ago.

Americans will see the lynching of Lance, against the backdrop of the Batman Movie Killer in AZ. Such a complicated trial for this guy and he was caught at the scene.

Lance, in contrast, gets hanged out of hand, 13 years later.
FTOR

Sport climber
CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:52pm PT
what gets me about all of this is the hypocrisy of them going after lance and turning a blind eye to the prevalence of doping in all the major money sports in this country. there's probably not a player in the nfl who hasn't doped. biking hardly registers in this country. who's even following the veulta right now?
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:57pm PT
David Blanco Rodriguez won Stage 7 and leads the general classification ;-)
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 03:59pm PT
. It's all hearsay and being associated with certain Doctors

Isn't this the exact opposite of hearsay - don't they have many eyewitness testimonies?
I think you guys all have to read some of the evidence.
Armstrong was looking at at least 10 teammates testifying with eyewitness testimony as well as multiple cases of postive tests involving extortion, bribes and payoffs.

You really think a guy who jaked himself up with test everyday and rode his brains out and felt entitled enough to keep doing it for 7 wins is really going to lay down if he can win?
Furthermore - he didn't lay down - he lost a final attempt to block the arbitration in court.
He had lost! He didn't quit...

yosemite 5.9

climber
santa cruz
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:01pm PT
Someday, some way, when you do something that you believe is fair and honest and as a result, get excessively prosecuted in this country, you may feel you have something in common with Lance Armstrong.

Allegations are not facts. Claims of having evidence are not evidence.

A US agency's assertion of control over a French sporting event is an example of how excessive the prosecution of Lance Armstong has become.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:04pm PT
. I'd love to see the Chain of Custody forms for those samples the USADA is saying are "consistent with doping" (WTF ever that weasel words phrase is supposed to mean).

Actually the exact opposite.
One of the scientists involved in three of the positive tests turned up on LA's payroll a few years later as an expert witness in Armstrong's favor.
How much cancer money ya think that took?
500, 000 maybe?
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Aug 24, 2012 - 04:35pm PT
To my defense
I don't have all the facts on the subject
and am a BIG Professional Bicycling Fan
so I am biased, but still reasonable for my given situation

Have old samples of Lance's turned up positive for New Drugs?
I heard no, am I wrong
JEleazarian

Trad climber
Fresno CA
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:06pm PT
Anyone who thinks an ego maniac like Armstrong who has financiial resources would not fight the charges IF he thought he had a chance of prevailing is not being reasonable.

I've defended people falsely accused by a government or an organization with resources far beyond my clients' means -- and several of those clients were multi-millionaires. In addition, I was in a court with rules of evidence, due process rights, and the burden of proof on the other side. They often got worn down by the process -- particularly if the penalty wasn't that great.

Dealing with the USADA is almost the exact opposite. An accused athlete has about as much chance as a defendant before the Queen of Hearts. Off with his head, then let's have the trial.

I perfectly understand why anyone would refuse to legitimize a proceeding that appears stacked against him. I understand it even more when, as here, Armstrong already proved what he could do on the road, and no one accuses him of doing something any of his main rivals were not doing.

The USA, with all of its resources (and, believe me, the Justice Department has lots of them) couldn't find enough evidence for an indictment, which speaks volumes. Instead of engaging Armstrong in an arena where he can fight back, his detractors choose one where the accused has virtually no rights.

If anything, I think the onus is on the USADA to come forward with its evidence (as opposed to its accusations) to satisfy a substantial portion of the public that sees this as a witch hunt. Riley may be right; LA may deserve the greatest of contempt. Our problem is that the USADA hasn't shown us satisfactory proof of that, and we aren't willing just to take their word for it.

Besides, it appears that I not only may have ksolem on my side (as is often the case), but Curt, El Cap, and Dr. F. as well. We must be right!

John
LilaBiene

Trad climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:11pm PT
+1 Yosemite 5.9...Hello extraterratorial jurisdiction...stuff kids learn to stamp out in the sandbox.

Having witnessed first-hand how out-of-control some folks become when given even the smallest amount of power, specifically in the context of a corporate arbitration in which the arbitrators acted directly against the terms of the contract the parties had signed, and further, in direct opposition of the very clear applicable state law, I wouldn't trust the "witch hunter" as far as I could toss him. Do you think he would keep his job if he DIDN'T do everything possible to close the deal (moral or immoral or just plain depraved)?

I'm curious...
...How many people did he threaten/promise leniency/promise immunity to come up with his list of "witnesses"?
...What is his compensation structure? Requirements to keep his job?
...Is his position an "appointed" one?
...What did he do before taking on this glorious assignment that has kept him in the public spotlight for...years?

I believe Lance Armstrong is a good man, not a perfect man. Not one of us is perfect. But Lance Armstrong has done more in his short 40 years than many others of us, and I have a soft spot for people who do good things for others (and have, shall we say, an uncommonly enormous amount of excess energy?). He didn't have to start a charitable organization...he chose to.

Lance Armstrong is a father at the end of the day. Perhaps this is his way of setting an example for his children...nothing is worth putting loved ones through Hell just to prove a point. If Lance can look at himself in the mirror at the end of the day, and feel good about who he is as a person, then that's really the only thing that matters. The rest is between him and the Universe...not the rest of us fellow (imperfect) human beings.
Brandon-

climber
The Granite State.
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:15pm PT
...How many people did he threaten/promise leniency/promise immunity to come up with his list of "witnesses"?

According to NPR's report on it today, over a dozen.

I'm not stating an opinion, just telling what I heard.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:16pm PT
I'm always on your side JE
LOL
yosemite 5.9

climber
santa cruz
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:21pm PT
Eyewitness testimony is very unreliable and easily falsified. Watch the movie "My Cousin Vinny" as an example.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 24, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
Wow this is bogus.

Having been involved with Motorsports for 20 years I see this like this...

At a race you have this thing called TECH ..... every car goes through it before the racing and the lucky few who win, place, show or get picked at random... you get your stuff torn apart. You get your car returned in bits and pieces.

This is because folks in sports cheat, all the time.

To hold fair races the governing body must have fair and open tech. All the good ones do this.

Its important to get the cheaters and get them out.

When we hold races it is important to do the tech and declair a winner ASAP.

The day of the race is best, but sometimes it gets delayed because you need to send a fuel sample out for testing at the NHRA or USAC lab. Or one time we sent a motor back to Austria for a teardown inspection.

This never takes more than 2 weeks at most.

I find it almost impossable to believe that it has taken them 13 years to test and retest samples.... I guess its one of those things that went like this.... "Look, go back and test those samples again.... dont come back till you get the right results"

Well I figure if they couldn't catch him on the days of the races .... and for seven more years, then the test they use is flawed.... they are weak in the testing they do and they didn't do a very professional job of testing. Pretty bogus.

So no matter what they say.... LA won 7 TDF, period, end of story.

So next year when they run the thing I wont care at all about who wins or loses because the folks who run the event don't know squat about how to controll their own event.

WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:00pm PT
JEleazarian

Thanks for your post, makes sense if that's the case.

I personally hope Lance doesn't lose his TDF titles.

That would suck tremendously and be an outrage in my opinion ......

Some Random Guy

Trad climber
San Franphsyco
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:11pm PT
whatever, this is all bullsh#t

let 'em do steroids or whatever performance enhancing anything that they want. i would love to see the olympics in the format. allow them to do as much of whatever they wanted to to perform better. now that would be interesting and very entertaining.
Randisi

Social climber
Dalian, Liaoning
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:14pm PT
If Armstrong won using performance-enhancing drugs over competition who were all using performance-enhancing drugs, all that proves is that he benefitted the most from using them.

If none of them were using, perhaps he wouldn't have stood out so much.
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:22pm PT
Lance had two lieutenants(Tyler Hamilton, and Floyd Landis) admit to doping.
If Lance knew about it(and undoubtedly he did)why didn't he stop it? Seems that he would want to just to avoid association.

Note: I've followed pro racing for almost twenty five years, have done road bike teetees, and raced mountain bikes.
I was a Lance fan in the beginning, but he got too cocky, and arrogant.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 06:56pm PT
Couple notes:

This is not ancient history!
He retired less than 2 year ago - the last time was only in 2010.
And he was trying to compete on another Pro circuit just this year.
The 13 year thing is bullsh#t.


Secondly: The USADA does not find you guilty. They gather the evidence and an independent panel of arbitrators looks at the evidence during the hearing - not the USADA.

"USADA only initiates matters supported by the evidence. We do not choose whether or not we do our job based on outside pressures, intimidation or for any reason other than the evidence.

As in every USADA case, all named individuals are presumed innocent of the allegations unless and until proven otherwise through the established legal process. If a hearing is ultimately held then it is an independent panel of arbitrators, not USADA that determines whether or not these individuals have committed anti-doping rule violations as alleged."


Thirdly: The agency states it has results from 2009 and 2010 that are fully consistent with blood doping! So this is not even about a witch hunt from 1999. This is about his come back. He f*#ked up - he would have got away with it if he had stayed retired. Those results lead to more investigation. That lead to everything they have now and LA losing his titles.

""The 40-year-old Armstrong walked away from the sport in 2011 without being charged following a two-year federal criminal investigation into many of the same accusations he faces from USADA. The federal probe was closed in February but USADA announced in June it had evidence Armstrong used banned substances and methods and encouraged their use by teammates. The agency also said it had blood tests from 2009 and 2010 that were "fully consistent" with blood doping.""
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 07:06pm PT
The agency (USADA) also said it had blood tests from 2009 and 2010 that were "fully consistent" with blood doping."

I'm really curious about that. If that is the only actual blood test related evidence they have and Armstrong had over 500 to 600 "clean" test results during his TDF years, then attempting to yank his TDF titles based on that is complete BS.

Curt
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 07:29pm PT
http://www.usada.org/sanctions/

Very interesting guys,
A list of athletes banned by the USADA
Look at who is on top.
With LA's long litigious history of suing just about everybody I am sure he will be spending a lot of money suing the USADA as these are very serious charges.
The question is, since these are criminal charges, will they now charge him in criminal court?

Far from just blood doping it seems - this isnt over..

Lance Armstrong
Cycling
Lifetime Ban - Loss of Results, EPO, Testosterone, Blood Transfusions and Corticosteroids, Trafficking, Administration to others
8/24/2012 ems

crunch

Social climber
CO
Aug 24, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
whatever, this is all bullsh#t

let 'em do steroids or whatever performance enhancing anything that they want. i would love to see the olympics in the format. allow them to do as much of whatever they wanted to to perform better. now that would be interesting and very entertaining.

Sadly, not really. Famously, the East German Olympics team doped heavily during the 70s and 80s. Long term health effects on athletes were terrible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_East_Germany

And here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/nov/01/athletics.gdnsport3

It's ben a whack-a-mole game ever since. And yes, curiously enough, testiculat cancer is one of the health problems.....
DickMcfartin

Ice climber
MassHole
Aug 24, 2012 - 07:48pm PT
The whole " every pro cyclist dopes" thing is a crock of sh#t attitude and stance to take imop.

Think about the trickle down. Imagine being a little kid and coming up through the ameture ranks. You get your first pro contract only to be told by team Docs if you ask to many questions about all the these needles we are sticking you with you can be on the first plane home.

So you just spent the last 10 years of your life naively chasing a dream putting all and everything aside to do so. You made the big time and now you are expected to cheat.

You really think this or even worse young kids that have not a chance in hell of ever making it turn to doping to win a bunch of races that could matter a sh#t.

Come on people wake up. If you are all really ok with the whole they all do it he is was the best cheater thing i am highly disappointed but fat from surprised as clearly most are willing to compromise moral integrity for what is they want in the immediate.
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:05pm PT
what gets me about all of this is the hypocrisy of them going after lance and turning a blind eye to the prevalence of doping in all the major money sports in this country. there's probably not a player in the nfl who hasn't doped. biking hardly registers in this country. who's even following the veulta right now?

Amen! Why so much fuss over a mere cyclist . . . even with the exposure Lance has brought to the sport, it (cycling) remains insignificant in the U.S., save for a small percentage of individuals. The hypocrisy involved in this witch hunt is unbelievable . . . America worships the NFL and all the steroid enhanced players beating the sh#t out of one another. You know damn well those sanctioned users of performance enhancing drugs would never be subject to a crusade like the one to disgrace Mr. Armstrong.

America loves to hate . . . America is founded on deception.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:25pm PT
I'm guessing the OOSADA bureaucrats have much to gain financially and politically by crucifying Lance and busting his ball...I also think it is outrageous that they think it is within their juristriction to take his titles away besides being too long after the fact...This is another tax payer sponsored boondoggle...Who's next on the USADA hit list...? Lebron James...?
DickMcfartin

Ice climber
MassHole
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
lebron is a thug we can only hope he is next.

I agree the lack of testing in the NFL, NBA and AHL is just sad!

America is founded on deceit but even more so than Amrerica i would say is humanity.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:30pm PT
What's chicken-sheeit in all this is that Armstrong played by the rules of the game and he won.

The testers had carte blanche to test at any time and all times and, as far as has been published, never failed him on a test in the hundreds of attempts to flunk him.

This is a vendetta, which originated in France and has been picked up by the Uswhatjamcallits.

Let's see the comparative statistics on who among all the bicycle peddlers was tested and how often.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
The root of all this is the money and fame of this competition. The same incentives that make business cheat and pollute and government invade countries that are no threat.

People that bike for fun don't do this, and people who climb for fun don't dope either (you know what I mean)

This is what cutthroat competition with a lot at stake does. How you gonna change that without creating a worse police state in the sport than already exists?

The way things are set up now, and the way our society rolls, this is what we get. Wanna go after LA? Go after em all~! Total witch hunt!

What then

peace

Karl
maldaly

Trad climber
Boulder, CO
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
I don't know if this has been posted up-thread but this is the best thinking I've seen on the doping debacle:

Here's the pull quote:

"I don’t know if Armstrong did the things he’s accused of doing, and neither do you. I don’t know if these witnesses are telling the truth, and neither do you. I do know two things: First, he passed all his tests. And second, if he had failed a drug test, and brought in 10 people to testify that they were with him every minute of every day leading up to the test and he never ingested anything, never injected anything, never doped his blood, would we be having this debate today? No, because he would have failed a drug test, and all the testimony in the world wouldn’t matter.

It can’t work both ways. Either a drug test is the standard, or it isn’t. "
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 24, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
^^^^ That's an excellent point.

Curt
WBraun

climber
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:01pm PT
The big gotcha he has on his head is:

Trafficking, Administration to others

He doesn't even have to be found guilty ever of using any dope on himself.

But Trafficking, and administration to others qualifies as guilty.

It's a total bummer this whole thing.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:08pm PT
Trafficking, Administration to others

It seems the judicial inquisition would have nailed him here if there was evidence.

Did anybody watch these races on TV, wasn't that Armstrong peddling his ass off there, or was it someone else?

Put every single rider (or at least the top ones) under the microscope as has been done with Armstrong.

Come back and publish the results.




DickMcfartin

Ice climber
MassHole
Aug 24, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
Tell that to the guy that got 134th place that decided being a domestique was a more moral path to fulfilling their childhood dream vrs. cheating and being deemed some kind of hero but living in paranoia and not being able to sleep on account of knowing your sh#t is one giant big lie built on all the guys that win dope so if i wanna win i gotta dope also.

Tell it to his wife and kids as he brings home 100k a year for a ten year then returns to the coal mine while Lance the dick face cheater brings in 16 million a year in endorsements.

You people that are ok with cheating on account of everyone doing are the same people that cheat given the opportunity. If not that you sure make it easy for cheaters to cheat as it de stigmatizes cheating.

Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:24pm PT
It can’t work both ways. Either a drug test is the standard, or it isn’t. "




Curt


Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ Aug 24, 2012 - 08:56pm PT
^^^^ That's an excellent point.

Curt




Not really, besides the fact that it ignores all the evidence and reality of the situation. It creates another reality where passing your drug test is all that matters and you, after passing this single test in the present, are off scott free - this is certainly not the case - Marion Jones and a hundred other busted athletes are examples.


Lance knew full well that it was not just a one test deal and that evidence of cheating found at any time would be used against him. There is no statue of limitations on this sh#t- why the hell are you guys trying to create one - it's perverse.

There is no standard for these tests - it is always changing in response to cheaters that are three or four steps ahead - this is why they freeze the samples - so they can be tested in the future for other designer drugs and masking agents, etc..

Furthermore the bullshit 500 tested and passed line from Lance is so yesterday - he did not pass all his tests - he failed some and used pay offs, forgeries, and bribery.

And while ya folks are at it - look up witch hunt - it has nothing to do with this situation.
The dude is guilty.
Maybe you all have information on one of the 40 to 60 thousands folks who were killed for witch craft actually being real witches that I am not aware of??? I would be interested in any proof of supernatural ability.

Riley
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
Aug 24, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
"They should simply go after the new winners the way they went after Lance until they accept bans....Peace."--Karl Baba

I tend to think this would make the severe stance of the "authority" seem less like a witch hunt.

It might take the blood sport out of it.

Lance has a lot going for him for the good; he will sail through this mess, and when the sound and the fury are slackened, and the apostrophes are added, what will it matter?

I'm certainly not claiming he was an angel; nor am I claiming he's undeserving of having his titles stripped, etc. At first glance, there are some similarities here to Pete Rose's punishment. But betting on baseball or other ball games by players is, I don't believe, as prevalent an infraction of rules as doping in cycling. There are other differences, surely, which I won't try to say anything about, because what does it matter?

It's sad. Unsullied heroes are hard to come by, it seems.

"Say it ain't so, Joe."

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 24, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
Well Riley,

It's great to see that OR Nurse is leveraged to the same accreditation as Legal Prosecutor.

Armstrong is not exactly a sympathetic character but he is willing to take a hit in the face of a subordinate body and let the facts of passing piss and blood tests by those considered legitimate stand.

This is the great farce of sports , that all the fur can fly in sub legislated bodies,but until now, no one has been willing to take on a defamation claim.

That's where it's at and he didn't give up anything yet.



Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:38am PT
http://www.txwd.uscourts.gov/opinions/cases/Armstrong_USA_A12CV606SS.pdf


""It's great to see that ER Nurse is leveraged to the same accreditation as Legal Prosecutor"""

A paper shuffling Attorney?
lol
Can't imagine anything more boring.

Sh#t dude - this is about as easy as watching the sun rise.


I'm much more interested in what this case has to teach me concerning other wise very intelligent folks ability to think objectively; invest emotionally and become programed in situations that have no effect on and what it says about a persons base character and ethics.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:44am PT
It's a good thing that old blood samples can be used and tested.

At one particular moment in time the dopers with highly qualified dope doctors are always ahead of the tests. But over time the tests catch up. This is the situation now. Even if you at present is on top of the dope ladder being able to get access to and pay the "best" dope doctors to give you substances that cannot at present be found because the tests are not yet developed, you are no longer sure, because there is a fair chance that in the future the tests will be available and the substances will be found in your old blood samples. The LA case is a good example. LA had access to the "best" dope doctors.

The dopers are now taking a chance - their cheating can be disclosed in the future even if they are ahead of the tests at present. This situation gives hope of a cleaner sport. I think only politicians in the pocket of corporations and other money-people (they have their hands deep into the structure of the sport) can block the chance of getting a cleaner sport.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:50am PT
"""The IF for cycling is the Union Cycliste Internationale (UCI), also known as the International
Cycling Union.8 According to the Olympic Movement website:
The International Sports Federations are international non-governmental
organisations recognised by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) as
administering one or more sports at world level. The national federations
administering those sports are affiliated to them. While conserving their
independence and autonomy in the administration of their sports, International Sports
Federations seeking IOC recognition must ensure that their statutes, practice and
activities conform with the Olympic Charter.""


It looks like the TDF doesn't have sh#t to say about this.
The USADA speaks for the IOC.
Unless the UCI wants to get dumped from the Olympics they will obviously comply with the USADA ruling.

That is why the USADA was able to take away Lance's titles.
It speaks for the International Olympic Committee which speaks for ALL Olympic sports.

Also doing further research: The USADA was responsible for breaking up BALCO and prosecuting, as well as exposing, the steroid era of baseball - so to say they have done nothing with the money making sports is not true.



Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 25, 2012 - 12:54am PT
The dopers are now taking a chance - their cheating can be disclosed in the future even if they are ahead of the tests at present. This situation gives hope of a cleaner sport. I think only politicians in the pocket of corporations and other money-people (they have their hands deep into the structure of the sport) can block the chance of getting a cleaner sport.

Yes Marlow - and, as seems to be the problem at all levels of just about everything, a corrupt, complicit and dishonest media.
Some Random Guy

Trad climber
San Franphsyco
Aug 25, 2012 - 01:10am PT
Sadly, not really. Famously, the East German Olympics team doped heavily during the 70s and 80s. Long term health effects on athletes were terrible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_in_East_Germany

And here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2005/nov/01/athletics.gdnsport3

It's ben a whack-a-mole game ever since. And yes, curiously enough, testiculat cancer is one of the health problems.....
that is part of the entertainment value.....seeing these idiots od themselves and destroy their bodies for what? they are all fools...
just think how outta control it would be if there were no regulation.....ha ha maybe i'm kinda sadistic for wanting to see that
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 25, 2012 - 01:13am PT
Which leads directly to the last and most obvious point, that Armstrong has not exhausted
his internal remedies, namely the arbitration procedures in the USADA Protocol. As explained
below, Armstrong's challenges to USADA's jurisdiction, and his arguments about which rules
govern, can and should be made in arbitration. If the panel's resolution of those issues is manifestly
unjust and devoid of any reasonable legal basis, Armstrong may have a judicial remedy; but this
Court cannot act on the basis of a hypothetical injury.

page 23
More telling than anything


The record shows Armstrong agreed, in at least some of his international cycling license
applications during the relevant period, to abide by USA Cycling's rules, among others. See Farrell
Aff. [#49] at 6-14. For instance, Armstrong agreed in one such application that it was his "sole
responsibility to be familiar with . . [several entities, including USA Cycling]' s rules, and any
special regulations for a USA Cycling event," and further agreed "to comply with all such rules and
regulations," including that he "must submit to drug testing, if required." Id. at 6. As noted above,
USA Cycling's regulations incorporate the USADA Protocol and give USADA the authority to
implement it. Defs.' Mot. Dism. [#33], Attach. 7 at 70. In turn, the USADA Protocol requires
athletes to contest threatened doping sanctions through arbitration.35

Exactly - so don't give me that bullshit that LA does not now recognize the USADA or arbitration...what a joke



Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 25, 2012 - 01:19am PT
Gaming the system with cheats and lies or trying to stay technically legal while being illegal in spirit is the American way

We went to Iraq knowing they didn't have WMDs, Romney pays a small percentage of the taxes he owes by exploiting tax havens and loopholes, and if you're not enjoying drugs for fun then your expecting Jesus to get you off the hook for your sins by having suffered in your place.

This is more of the same. Get what you want by any advantage, legit or not, that you can finagle

Peace

Karl
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 25, 2012 - 01:26am PT
Truer words never spoken Karl.

The conclusion of the ruling is very telling.
I can see how fans of the sport are getting conflicting messages - lol
The entire thing reeks of a big money making conspiracy.

What a mess..
He would have gotten away with it if he hadn't came back again and flaunted it all - arrogant as#@&%e.

I would have hunted him down also...

Can't wait to get back to climbing and ignoring this crap - what a dumb world.

Cheers, Riley

One Nut

Social climber
Col De Galibier
Aug 25, 2012 - 07:53am PT
So Riley and Babba easy for you to sit back and bash away on a guy for passsing 500 doping tests.

Raised over 300 million for cancer research.

What the f*#k have you two done?


Stop bye the house we will have a few ultras I'll show you my testical in the jar and if you want we can go for a ride and talk about it.

Or you could go do something else other that post dribble of which you know nothing about really and volunteer a day at your local VA.

Peace

One Nut.






Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 25, 2012 - 07:59am PT
Just because they took his crown away does not mean he is not still King. Hail Lance!!
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 08:12am PT
What if he payed off testers and used other folks' blood and urine for tests?

Possible.

Alot of drugs come into the country via the payoff route. Should have been possible to determine (probably still is) whether or not it was Armstrong's stuff.

I'll ask again, why doesn't the USADA publish everything they have?

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 25, 2012 - 08:16am PT
So Riley and Babba easy for you to sit back and bash away on a guy for passsing 500 doping tests.

I don't know what you're talking about Bro. Have you read my many posts on this thread?

I think they ought to leave the guy alone personally. Just commenting on the total picture of this sport and our society where winning is everything and anything goes if you can get away with it.

My guess, the LA did his best to do whatever he could to enhance his performance while being careful to stay on the side of not running afoul of testing. I think he was basically forced to do so as that's what everyone was doing and you couldn't compete at the very top without some form of illegal or not illegal yet enhancement.

So I don't blame him but rather cite it as the way to sport rolls...period

It's like how politicians have to raise millions to run for office with the Lion's share coming from elite money and corporations and then they claim they aren't influenced by needing and getting millions from those interests. Yeah, right. But then you see how they vote and the favors they do for those interests and you know the truth.

I applaud LAs good works and don't blame him for doing his best to win while not getting caught. What else to do? (even if you pay the price with your health but hey, maybe they are finding ways to Juice without killing yourself in the process. Time will tell)

Peace

Karl
Studly

Trad climber
WA
Aug 25, 2012 - 08:22am PT
For them to try to take away his lifetime wins is like saying Harding didn't get the 1st ascent of the Nose because he did not free it. Screw that. Keep on rocking Lance!!!
locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Aug 25, 2012 - 08:31am PT


He DOPED because he is a DOPE...

Case closed!!!...

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 08:37am PT
Or conversely

he is a dope because he doped

implies alot of dopes in the world

rurprider

Trad climber
Mt. Rubidoux
Aug 25, 2012 - 08:38am PT
Chief...... Your jealousy of Lance Armstrong and his awesome success is showing. Lance Armstrong has been one of the most consistently tested athletes in history, with over 500 negative results. The US antidumping agency has NO concrete evidence, just the testimony of Lance's former teams, who have admitted to doping, agreeing to testify in exchange for leniency from prosecution (ie. Floyd Landis). Innocent until proven guilty. Let's see the evidence! The maliciousness of your thread is disgusting. SHAME ON YOU! Lance Armstrong is the greatest athlete to ever mount a bicycle, and a cancer survivor. Get on your bicycle and do some training yourself. Keep riding and running marathons, Lance!
pyro

Big Wall climber
Calabasas
Aug 25, 2012 - 08:42am PT
this OBAMA administration is going after certain people and Lance is one of em.

Nothing wrong with blood enhancement.

something wrong with a government going after their own superstars.


good job travis from Anti-doping cuzz u suck.


long live the super lance!

Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Aug 25, 2012 - 08:42am PT
7 TDF Wins!!
The Best TDF winner ever!
Hail Lance
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 25, 2012 - 09:15am PT
Now that USADA has boinked Lance i think they should get on with their laundry list and go after Mercxk , Kelley , Lemond and the entire pro peloton....After all , money is no object to USADA especially when the US tax payers are picking up the tab..
locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Aug 25, 2012 - 09:20am PT


"7 TDF Wins!!
The Best TDF winner ever!
Hail Lance"
...


Yer HERO is a DOPER...
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 25, 2012 - 09:25am PT
this is a great article about the biological passport system.


http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/ashenden-understanding-usadas-armstrong-charges_227833
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 25, 2012 - 09:31am PT
if your following the Vuelta...

Convicted doper Valverde passed convicted doper Contador at the finish to win stage 8!
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 25, 2012 - 09:44am PT
How does someone pass hundreds of drug tests, without failing any, if the tests are worth anything?

Why administer tests in the first place? Wouldn't it be more effective to just ask around, if you want to find out who's doing what?
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Aug 25, 2012 - 09:49am PT
For them to try to take away his lifetime wins is like saying Harding didn't get the 1st ascent of the Nose because he did not free it. Screw that. Keep on rocking Lance!!!

Yeah, Harding was up to his neck in ETOH courage enchancing substances! The FA goes to Robbins who was probably clean

;-)

Can you imagine if they did this in the NFL like they just did with Penn State (Taking away wins)? You'd have retired players who suddenly found out they'd won the super bowl and suing their old bosses for bonuses and rings

Karl
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 25, 2012 - 09:56am PT
What if they find out that the Lantern Rouge (sp?) ( he's the guy who's dead-last in the standings ) was doping and therefore disqualified?

Does this mean that the guy who finished second-to-last, and worked his ass off for three weeks to avoid a last place finish, is now given just that?
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 25, 2012 - 09:59am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

good one Chaz
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Aug 25, 2012 - 01:13pm PT
What is evident to me as a result of the current USADA actions against LA is that the sport of road bicycle racing has undergone a paradigm shift - a sea change - and the implications have not yet been digested or understood. The sport and its enthusiasts have not yet caught up with the new reality.

Whereas in lived life the complexity of events, influences, circumstances, interpretations, framesof reference, and the infinite interpenetration of confluences coalesce to create an intricate and complex open ended clusterfuk, competitive racing sports present an artificial realm where rules and boundaries create a reductive event. There is a definitive 'start' and there is a definitive 'finish'. There is closure. This artificial structure allows us the satisfaction of the sort of clarity missing in life. "Ladies and gentlemen, the winner is....!"

That reality is now obsolete.

There is no longer any such thing as 'winning' a race. There can no longer be any closure. From now on there will only be provisional results. 'Winning' any road race will be a retroactive event continuously readjusted, malleable, and indefinitely deferred. All race results - and all meaning - will be recursive. Since any finish line result of a race is now by definition inconclusive and as such wholly defective, we will with each passing year form a radical reassessment of the eternally provisional results of any particular race. There can be no definitive winners within this system, because the concept of winning is now eternally deferred. Winning can no longer have any meaning in the present or past tense.

In the sport of competitive road bicycle racing there can no longer be any clarity or any winners. Those concepts are now wholly obsolete: anyone employing them is living in the past and resorting to false certainties, 'counting one's chickens before they hatch'.
coz

Mountain climber
Northern surly
Aug 25, 2012 - 03:13pm PT
He hasn't been nailed for anything!

This governing body can just make up claims without support and level false charges, and the sea of ST idiots believe it.

Moronic is all I can say and typical of our new culture.

Lance is innocent until proven guilty, not he other way around.
rockermike

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 25, 2012 - 03:14pm PT
I haven't read all of the above, but I've always suspected the guy. And once I saw the photo op of lance riding bikes with bush I knew he was evil. Ha

No one can ever know for sure but lances response - written by a ghost writer no doubt (very effective piece of writing I might add) - tries to point out that some people willing to testify have themselves been accused (and perhaps offered leniency for their testimony ) but obfuscating the fact that there is practically no one from his team that won't testify against him. Hell, even his girl friend is willing to testify.

Meanwhile, the point of all this is to allow honest and clean riders to compete. Its not possible if dopers are given a pass. I'm not sure if technologically it can ever be stopped - but its worth the effort IMHO.
Sparky

Trad climber
vagabond movin on
Aug 25, 2012 - 03:26pm PT
The best explanation of the whole doping mess I have seen.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

A pretty good explanation of how they avoid detection.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/biol...ndis-seriously
Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Aug 25, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
Agree with rottenjohnny - and after USADA is finished with Eddie Mercxk and Greg Lemond, maybe they can go after the Steeler offensive line from the 1970's. Rumor has it that Mike Webster, Jon Kolb and some of the boys liked to dabble in anabolics. And rumor is all that USADA seems to need. They can head down to Heinz Field and confiscate those Lombardi trophies and then they can get Chuck Noll kicked out of the hall of fame. And then maybe they can try to clean up baseball's "greenies" era and strip Cincinnati's Big Red Machine and other teams of their world series titles.
D.Eubanks

climber
Aug 25, 2012 - 05:02pm PT
Seems like all of the USADA need to find something to justify their jobs... losers.
Chaz

Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
Aug 25, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
This is why actual crimes have statutes of limitation attached to them. ( except for murder and maybe child molestation ) It's to keep prosecuting bodies from holding un-proven accusations against someone for several years without ever having to make their case..

At some point - long ago, in my opinion - the sh#t-or-get-off-the-pot principle applied here.

TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Aug 25, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
Did anyone bother to read the Federal judge's ruling?

he basically said that while there was no Federal jurisdiction, Armstrong was facing a kangaroo court with no chance for due process.
locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Aug 25, 2012 - 06:22pm PT



"Lance is innocent until proven guilty, not he other way around."...


Dude is GUILTY as fuk!!!...

Doping is probably what caused his nut cancer...

tradmanclimbs

Ice climber
Pomfert VT
Aug 25, 2012 - 06:27pm PT
There is no such thing as clean pro rider so why even bother....
WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2012 - 06:42pm PT
They never bathe?
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Vancouver Canada
Aug 25, 2012 - 06:43pm PT
Yes Werner, they bathe.



The problem is they all drink their own bath water...
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
^Why would they do that? Also, is drinking one's own bath water considered good, bad, ugly, a form of doping, an enlightening experience ...

Now I know there are cultures in the world wherein one's own urine is consumed and as I recall, it is a means of getting high and they are not known to participate in bicycling.

Lastly,
Isn't the USADA the same group that approves all the tainted meat for sale up in the central valley? I'd like to see the drug profile and some o' them cows.





Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 25, 2012 - 07:07pm PT
[quote]. he basically said that while there was no Federal jurisdiction, Armstrong was facing a kangaroo court with no chance for due process. /quote]


LOL

I read all 40 pages...

Obviously you didn't.....

Rotfllmao



Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Aug 25, 2012 - 07:07pm PT
USADA = US Anti-Doping Admin.
USDA = US Dept of Agriculture

Thanks mono
monolith

climber
albany,ca
Aug 25, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
hehe, USDA = US Department of Agriculture, although they might as well be the dairy association considering how much subsidies dairy gets.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 07:14pm PT
USADA, USDA (type I and type II) and throw in the ADA (Americans for Democratic Action) and FPCC*

I'd advocate combining all these; agriculture, diary, anti-doping, political provacateurs into a super agency and put them in charge of patents and telecommunications.

Someone has got to bring Apple under control.

I do wonder who broke into Steve Jobs house recently. I hope it wasnt' Daniel Ellsburg or that guy who debated Tim Leary.


*for the un- or mis- informed - Fair Play for Cuba Committee

Among its twenty-nine early notable supporters were William Appleman Williams, Norman Mailer, Truman Capote, James Baldwin, Jean-Paul Sartre, Allen Ginsberg and Lawrence Ferlinghetti, as well as Latin Americans Waldo Frank and Carleton Beals


WBraun

climber
Aug 25, 2012 - 07:22pm PT
Well ......

According to the conclusion drawn from this thread and it's inhabitants.

Lance Armstrong needs to bathe .... !!!!!!!
beef supreme

climber
the west
Aug 25, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
regardless of what side of the issue you're on- gotta admit- sure is a whole lotta bullsh!t about seeing who can ride a bike the fastest. pretty simple idea- gone to hell.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 08:36pm PT
^^Wade in the Water children.

zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 25, 2012 - 08:54pm PT
Armstrong refused arbitration, nothing else.

USADA can prevent him from competing professionally on U.S. turf.

Only the UCI can nullify his tour victories.


Only the UCI can nullify his tour victories. It won’t because it would lead to the nullification of all race results in which competitors could be suspected based on testimony of others, not to mention riders who actually tested positive at some time during their careers. That would include Merckx, Riis, Ullrich, Zabel, David Millar, Valverde and Pereiro, who ended up in first place at the tour after Floyd Landis’ positive test in 2006. The list is long and the motivation of those who have an ax to grind against someone is potentially endless. It would set a precedent for unsubstantiated accusations to change legitimate race results on a grand scale.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 25, 2012 - 09:51pm PT
From cyclingnews...

(if everyone knew he was being informed, why are we just hearing about it now. Also, are there some Sky accusations in the paragraph I highlighted?)

American said to have been given time “to cover his tracks”

Lance Armstrong was “warned before all planned doping controls,” an adviser to the French anti-doping agency AFLD has said. Michel Rieu, scientific adviser to AFLD, said this was only one of the methods the American used to escape detection of his doping.

"The inspectors encountered many difficulties in making unannounced checks. Armstrong was always informed in advance, so he still had twenty minutes to cover his tracks. He could thin his blood or replace his urine. He used the EPO only in small quantities, so it was no longer there to detect. We were powerless against this way of working,” Rieu told the Le Monde newspaper.

He also claimed that Armstrong used a large network to help him with his doping, and his avoidance of positive doping controls. "Armstrong let himself be surrounded by many physiologists. Also in the logistics field, everything was possible. The rumor was that his private jet was flying blood in from the United States.”

Armstrong was on Friday given a lifetime ban by the USADA, with all his results since August 1998, disqualified, including his seven Tour de France victories. He had chosen not to challenge doping charges which the American agency had brought against him.

French attorney Thibault de Montbrial, who defended the paper in a suit filed by Armstrong against LA Confidential authors David Walsh and Pierre Ballester, thinks the cumulative pressure of authors such as these and the SCA Promotions lawsuit that followed contributed to the downfall of Armstrong.

He also believes riders are still showing suspicious signs.

"Work together with Antoine Vayer [LeMond columnist], the performance specialist, helped show the implausibility of the power generated in watts on the climbs. Moreover, it is interesting to note that the UCI has banned the publication of such real-time statistics in 2012. And we can understand why when you see that the power production by [Bradley] Wiggins and [Chris] Froome (first and second of the Tour) is comparable to the turbulent times of the late 1990s and early 2000s."Follow Cyclingnews on Twitter for the very latest coverage of events taking place in the cycling world - twitter.com/cyclingnewsfeed



knudeNoggin

climber
Falls Church, VA
Aug 25, 2012 - 11:00pm PT
Trafficking, Administration to others

It seems the judicial inquisition would have nailed him here if there was evidence.

Did anybody watch these races on TV, wasn't that Armstrong peddling his ass off there,

(-: quite the ironic misspelling on that one !


Reading a Wikipedia article on the TdF, one gets the idea that *doping* has been
a long-standing practice, from amphetamines & painkillers to modern stuff.

Reading Wiki's blurb on Greg Lemond, one gets the idea that Greg greatly
objected to this doping. And for lamenting Lance's early association with
Dr.Ferrari (who wasn't known as Better Housekeeping's Top Doc, but for less
noble ventures), Greg was threatened by Lance into apology and so on. And
that's rather early in LA's career. One might wonder : why didn't Lance just
talk to Greg and explain the innocent nature of Dr.F's association and all?
--unless it wasn't, and so on . ... all speculative, but some things fit,
and some don't (such as Landis's response to Lemond's urging "come clean"
of "what good would that do?" --not what an innocent person would say!).


There seems to be some considerable *smoke* (even if not showing the
*flame* of proof) of Lance running roughshod over those who got in his
way; I'm not all so forgiving of that even if part of his way was towards
helping others w/a foundation.
.
.
.
And wheels yet churn in this battle of USADA & UCI & ... , so we can await
what becomes in the next round.



As for excitement of TdF? Geeesh, why NOT being MORExciting with tough,
enforced, FOLLOWED prohibitions against doping? How exciting is it to see
Day-N of the favored rider taking his XX-minute lead with assurance over
hill & dale and with projected slight gains, maybe loss, from some upcoming
ITT ? Damn UNexciting; maybe it's okay if you're a fanboy of whoever the
maillot jaune is, but otherwise, no --and it's not the excitement of a race,
just the eagerness of confirming a crown. Who needs that?

Of course, in the USA, if the TdF lacks a USA leader/contender,
or lots of wrecks & injuries (blood!),
or controversy (doping),
there's no press value to it. Just pop up another pic of Anna Kournikova[?] (who
never won anything), and report the latest speeding/parking/bad-hair-or-dress
violations of a local-team benchwarmer. THAT's the 4th Estate!


*kN*
micronut

Trad climber
Aug 25, 2012 - 11:41pm PT
I don't like cheaters. In any sport.

And I don't like habitual liars. In life.

If there ends up proof that he cheated. Its a big deal, and it should be. And if he's any kind of a real man, he'll admit to cheating and deal with the consequences. If not, not only is he a cheater, but a liar.

But a man should be innocent until proven guilty. Not sure exactly where this puts Lance, though his riding was some of the best that's ever been done. Shame on him if he's a cheater, or a liar, or both. We may never know the full truth, but I'd like to take a man at his word. Sad its hard to do these days in sports, politics, etc....
Da_Dweeb

climber
Aug 26, 2012 - 02:04am PT
You guys think what the USADA did to Lance Armstrong was terrible? Consider what they did to Neil Armstrong.

Revoking his title as "First Man on the Moon" just because he's not alive to prove he wasn't doping?

Shameful.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 26, 2012 - 08:04am PT
peddling

Good to see that someone got it.
survival

Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
Aug 26, 2012 - 10:49am PT
Dang, someone forgot to push my give-a-shit button this morning.

F Lance.....
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 26, 2012 - 11:43am PT
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/sports/cycling/lance-armstrong-takes-second-in-mountain-bike-race-in-colorado.html
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 26, 2012 - 11:43am PT
What Oscar Pereiro said..." What is USADA going to do..? Give Lance's 7 TDF titles to Alex Zulle ( doper ) or Joseba Beloki ( doper )...Bagh...!
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 26, 2012 - 12:46pm PT
What Oscar Pereiro said..." What is USADA going to do..? Give Lance's 7 TDF titles to Alex Zulle ( doper ) or Joseba Beloki ( doper )...Bagh...!

Very fortunately, that's not up to the USADA. When they attempt to "strip" LA of his TDF wins without the authority to do so, their arrogance offends me.

Curt
StahlBro

Trad climber
San Diego, CA
Aug 26, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
If this stands.....

The UCI needs to retest everyone that might get the "titles", whether they have ever tested positive or not. They need to question all their team mates to see if they witnessed anything.

The USADA has to retest all US rider's samples that ever won anything and question all their team mates.

Only fair.

But they won't. They wanted to shoot a famous villager to send a message. They want the publicity to justify their jobs and all the money they are paid.

This retroactive approach is a slippery slope.
Fletcher

Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
Aug 26, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
I've followed much but not all of this thread. I've not seen much about the issues with UCI in terms of enabling doping. Padraig addresses this in this post which I think covers the complexity of this situation pretty well:

Endgame

The UCI is in need of reform as well.

Also, here is some breaking news from the Onion (not really!)... :-)

Lance Armstrong Lets Down Single Person Who Still Believed Him

Eric
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 26, 2012 - 03:02pm PT
. I've followed much but not all of this thread. I've not seen much about the issues with UCI in terms of enabling doping. Padraig addresses this in this post which I think covers the complexity of this situation pretty well:

I touched on it a few times indirectly. The conclusion of the court case alludes to this as well. As well as discussion concerning bribes and big money being made, media extortion, blackmail, etc...
There is some sh#t going on here that makes Boxing look like a kids game.

What folks don't get with this kangaroo court garbage is that the USADA is the recognized governing body. LA agreed to this as well as agreed to an arbitration hearing
every time he signed a contract to ride - it was there in the rules

Another thing folks don't get is that the USADA is the IOC as far as this cheating stuff is concerned.
They will clean this sh#t up whether or not a corrupt cycling governing body wants it or not - if not they will kick them out of the Olympics.

climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Aug 26, 2012 - 04:20pm PT
Never had any respect for forced contract signings with monopolies.

Oh sure you don't have to sign this contract but if you don't you can't ride.

Oh sure you don't have to sign the contract but if you dont you can't have electricity.

whatever.

Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 27, 2012 - 09:09am PT
Not so fast, in the race to condemn.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-hiltzik-20120825,0,2080853.column

Anti-doping authorities don't play fair against athletes

It's a system deliberately designed to place almost insurmountable hurdles in the way of athletes defending themselves or appealing adverse findings. Evidence has emerged over the years that laboratories certified by the World Anti-Doping Agency, or WADA, have been incompetent at analyzing athletes' samples or fabricated results when they didn't get the numbers they were hoping to see.


We're talking about three, four, five years of litigation

Before we go further, let's address the question most people think is the nub of the matter. Is Lance Armstrong a doper?

Here's the answer: I don't know. You don't know either. More to the point, Travis Tygart, head of the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, doesn't know. That hasn't kept USADA from declaring Armstrong to be guilty of charges it has not proved in public, or to attempt to strip him of his seven Tour de France titles. (It's not yet clear that USADA has the latter authority.)


In part that's because under the rules written by the anti-doping system, athletes' cases are heard not in a court of law but in arbitration.

Arbitration is a system that more Americans are becoming familiar with, to their misfortune and distaste. It's where banks, brokerages, cellphone companies and other powerful business institutions force their customers to litigate grievances, for the simple reason that arbitration systems favor those who use them the most — banks, brokerages, cellphone companies, etc.


The real secret of why anti-doping agencies have been able to hound athletes out of their sports with impunity is that in this system they're not only the prosecutors but also the judges and juries. They write the arbitration rules, including those governing what evidence is relevant and under what circumstances it can be questioned.

Defending oneself in this system is horrifically expensive. The hiring of lawyers and scientific experts, the cost of visiting labs in foreign lands and attending hearings all over the country can drive a routine defense to six figures.

How many amateur athletes have the resources to do that? So most defendants give in and accept a suspension for a year or more. But countless innocent athletes, or competitors whose violations are clearly the result of an accident or blameless error, carry the stigma of cheater because they couldn't afford a defense.

"You're up against a prosecutor who drafts the rules, and goes back and changes the rules when they go against him," says Michael Straubel, director of the sports law clinic at Valparaiso University Law School and a defense attorney who handed USADA one of its rare defeats in an arbitration case.


For example, World Anti-Doping Agency rules provide for an eight-year statute of limitations, meaning that anti-doping agencies aren't supposed to use test results older than that to bring charges against an athlete. But Armstrong has pointed out that USADA was basing its case against him on test results as much as 14 years old. Presto: WADA is proposing to update its statute of limitations to 14 years — and it's proposing that the update be retroactive.


Federal Judge Sam Sparks of Austin, Texas, who was asked by Armstrong to block USADA's case against him, found lots not to like about the agency's pursuit of the cyclist. He called USADA's charging document, a letter that listed Armstrong's purported doping violations, "so vague and unhelpful it would not pass muster in any court in the United States." The deficiency, he said, "is of serious constitutional concern."



And now a personal story.

It seems like one would want, like Lance, to fight for vindication of one's name, no matter what.

I was sued in a malpractice case 30 years ago, in which I was the treating ER physician in a small town ER. The fellow fell off a horse and hit his head. I established he'd fractured his skull and had brain damage, and transferred him to the closest major center, as we did not have resources/specialists to treat him there. My care was perfect. He did not do well, and everyone was sued. Three years dragged on, and one by one, parties settled out. Then I was served with ANOTHER suit from MY malpractice insurance carrier, to be let out of defending me. Turns out that the contract holder had not paid the premium on the insurance. Long story short, I would have had to pay any costs of going to trial.

The Plaintiffs made an offer to let me out for $10,000, which would require me to report this settlement for the rest of my career. My attorneys told me that defending the case would cost me, out of my pocket, a minimum of $90,000 IF I WON. If I lost, or were found to have contributed to the damage in any way, THERE WAS NO LIMIT ON WHAT IT COULD COST ME.
I settled the case for $10,000, and I have had to give explanations to every employer, on every university application, and every hospital application, and every renewal for my entire career.

rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 27, 2012 - 09:25am PT
Ken....Sounds like extortion-fraud on behalf of your insurance company....? Good article from the LA Times...The punch line , if Armstrong has his titles taken away , is that everyone knows he was the winner on a level playing field of dopers....Lance passed all the drug tests and is now being tested via heresay 7 years after the fact...I think it is called double jeopardy...?
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 27, 2012 - 10:32am PT
I'm having a hard time trying to see any relevance of Ken M's case for the case of LA. Ken M's case does not seem fair. In the LA case there are 10 persons who are ready to tell the story about what really happened. The witnesses are comparable to doctors who dare not publically speak out against the dark side of a dysfunctional health care system, but who have finally decided to tell the story.

I wonder if corporate and media tricksters are trying to scare the witnesses off?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 27, 2012 - 10:37am PT
These are 10 people who have been given enough incentive (due, presumably, to their own complicit involvement) to testify. I doubt they'd be scared off at this point. Looking out for #1 while crucifying the big fish. Pretty common stuff.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 27, 2012 - 10:43am PT
Telling the story will not make them heros in any possible way. But they will contribute to open up the possibility of a cleaner sport.

Jebus: What is interesting with a yellow wrist band in the LA case?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 27, 2012 - 10:45am PT
Interestingly, while beach going this weekend I noticed a lot of people wearing the yellow wrist band. Presumably a token of support.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 27, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
[quote]. Unethical behavior

In 1993, Hiltzik was caught hacking into his co-worker’s email while working for the LA Times in Moscow. The newspaper disciplined him and removed him from the Moscow office. [4]

In 2006 Hiltzik was suspended without pay from the LA Times for for sockpuppeting on his blog entitled "The Golden State". Hiltzik admitted to posting under false names on multiple sites, using the pseudonym "Mikekoshi" to attack Hugh Hewitt and L.A. prosecutor Patrick Frey. [5][6] In December 2009 the LA Times Hiltzik would be returning to a write a business column /quote]


Ken - the case is open and shut on LA.
This guy has probably been paid a good sum of money to write this crap.
Collusion with the media and black balling of media has been a main stay in LA's game.
This is massive massive massive corruption on every level.

The USADA and the IOC have every right and duty to go after LA.
All this whining and crap is coming from LA and his attorneys.
All the stuff folks repeat, like most tested athlete, which is bullshit comes from LA's media department.
This is authoritarian/republican game book 101 -LA doesn't even dispute the charges he attacks the system that brought him the charges - which means he is attacking the IOC.
These guys have done their job busting 1000's of cheaters. They are fully legitimate. This is all part of the contract LA signed to play.
I am sure you will see it when you look at it closer.

Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 27, 2012 - 12:36pm PT
I have questions about where these 10 credible witnesses were when the Dept. of Justice investigated this matter for two years. Clearly, team physicians, coaches, teammates, etc., would have been the first place they started. Also, how credible are those witnesses if the drug tests nevertheless turned up negative?

If the DOJ was unable to piece together a credible case in that amount of time, the puny little USADA probably has little more than it's dick in its hand. No wonder Armstrong refused to arbitrate. They probably would have insisted on binding arbitration and the right to select the arbitrators. You'd have to be an idiot to agree to participate on those terms.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Aug 27, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
Regardless of any past wrongdoing by Hiltzik this article is reasoned and
balanced. As for the LA case being cut and dried that is purely mental
speculation that ignores existing facts and, more importantly, many facts
the public is not privy to.

I have a good friend who is a world famous bio-chemist and the VP in charge
of R&D for a worldwide drug company. He says those anti-doping labs are a joke and
he wouldn't have his dog's pee tested there.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 27, 2012 - 01:57pm PT
Reilly

Is your friend treating his dog in such a way that his dog needs to be tested? Or are you just being polemical? And if your friend is treating his dog in such a way that it needs to be tested - is your friend then a person to be trusted?

Is this a typical American discussion with yellow wrist bands and dog pee carrying the same data and reasoning weight as the words of witnesses and the results of laboratory tests? Is this the heaven of American subjectivity or is it just spinning?
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 27, 2012 - 02:22pm PT
. Regardless of any past wrongdoing by Hiltzik this article is reasoned and balanced. As for the LA case being cut and dried that is purely mental speculation that ignores existing facts and, more importantly, many facts the public is not privy to


I couldn't disagree more.
You folks really need read the 40 page court case.
I didn't post the charges on purpose - just to see how much people actually look into what they are talking about.

It's obvious to me when folks are repeating LA talking points that have nothing to do with the case. LA isn't even challenging the merits of the case anymore - it is all procedural.
And statue of limitations wasn't even one of those procedural points.
Some of the positive tests are only three years old.
Regardles this is more of a conspiring case than anything - with LA at the head of a crime organization.
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 27, 2012 - 02:30pm PT
LA isn't even challenging the merits of the case anymore - it is all procedural.
Where on earth did you form that belief? From his unwillingness to participate in arbitration? He's repeatedly denied any wrongdoing. Whether you choose to believe him or not, that's challenging the merits of the case. He's just not stupid enough to step into a one-sided forum to formally deny those charges.
Marlow

Sport climber
OSLO
Aug 27, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
Fat Dad

I am able to understand that the burden of evidence was at last to heavy for LA to carry.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2012 - 02:40pm PT
He's just not stupid enough to step into a one-sided forum to formally deny those charges.

He is just not stupid enough to step into arbitration after seeing the recent mass of evidence and the list of witnesses that are willing to sing.

WADA has backed USADA 100% in this case and sent a formal letter to McQuad and the UCI encouraging to do the same.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/102398382/WADA-Letter-to-UCI
Fat Dad

Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
Aug 27, 2012 - 03:07pm PT
Chief,

That letter is contradictory and, in my opinion, a cop out. First, the letter is from the UCI retracting it's own prior public announcement, in effect, we didn't mean it that time; now we do. Second, the comment in the letter:
fact known to us at this stage, there seems to be no question that theADO which discoveredthe violations is USADA. Therefore, USADA’s results management procedure (i.e ., the “USADA Protocol”) is controlling.
What facts? If the guy doped, the UCI would have the results. What facts were "discovered" to contradict those results?

There is a fundamental conundrum that both the UCI and USADA are establishing. One, they've relied on their own testing in the past as evidence of doping. Two, they're now saying that if you have "evidence" which contradicts our own test results, which we've always assumed to be accurate and inviolate, that the test results don't mean anything in the face of that other evidence. How can that be?

I believe what this posturing shows proves the premise of the Hzitlick (sp?) article: that the anti-doping agencies just make up this sh#t as they go along.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2012 - 04:29pm PT
Remember that USADA is not the testing authority in Europe. WADA is. After the lengthy investigation by the USJD and USDA which ultimately resulted in no charges being filed against LA for "Distribution". USADA asked for and received all the gathered evidence and commenced their own investigation back in early Spring of this year.

When all this is said and done, the books will be opened and many heads are going to roll. Some from the top down in the UCI and possibly in the WADA org.

There is a lot going on behind the scenes in Europe Cycling at the moment.

PSP also PP

Trad climber
Berkeley
Aug 27, 2012 - 05:01pm PT
I find it telling that very few cyclists (pro) have anything to say (unless they have been caught). My suspician is because they all know that many of them enhanced in the past and probably many still do some things that are less risky. The recent story in the NYTimes by Vaughters shows that the regulators let the cyclists enhance (didn't really care) so they all did it to keep up. Now to come back and pretend that the organizers don't play a major role in why this happened is foolish. all the insiders know that everyone that was good in the old days was doping and as said earlier whoever gets named the winner of the races that LA won is very likely to be a doper also. So just put and asterisk by every winners name and say they are probably dopers because that is the way it is.
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 27, 2012 - 05:05pm PT
Chief....There's a lot going on behind the scenes...Pray tell ? One who hangs out with the bolsheviks....RJ
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Aug 27, 2012 - 05:07pm PT
Lance got assf*#ked in a sport full of dopers. What else is new? Got to have that strawman to burn in the end
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 27, 2012 - 05:10pm PT
During the 2002 Winter olympics , Frank Shorter was head of the doping cops...Apparently the cops tell the athletes what they are going to test for...Well shorter fibbed when he told them what they were testing for and some russian women got caught red-handed when they believed shorter...They had to turn in their medals...And Chief hangs out with Russians...?
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 27, 2012 - 05:41pm PT
Fatdad - arbitration is part of every contract to race that LA every signed.
Read the federal ruling.

And the UCI seems to be complicite to some extent.
This is bigger than LA.

I wouldn't be surprised if the IOC bans cycling for an Olympics.

Heads are going to roll - this is just the start.
Kalimon

Trad climber
Ridgway, CO
Aug 27, 2012 - 05:58pm PT
Riley Wyna has turned out to be such a complete whine-a. Thought you were cooler than this.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2012 - 06:13pm PT
Some of the beginning to the complete overhaul that is desperately needed...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/kimmage-uci-needs-root-and-branch-surgery


Don't be surprised if you see Vaughters as one of the key witnesses on that 10 man list. Including Hincapie, Levy, Vande Velde etal.

A great OPED by Vaughters on this whole doping deal, where he comes clean and the pressures of doping in order to be competitive in professional cycling.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html?_r=3&ref=opinion&pagewanted=all

For anyone that comes on this thread and still believes that LA NEVER doped, I say put the pipe down and read Vaughters oped.

Hey ROTTINGJAIN, they were actually Ukrainian Jews by way of Iran. They did not last very long btw.
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Aug 27, 2012 - 06:23pm PT
Riley Wyna has turned out to be such a complete whine-a. Thought you were cooler than this.

Well, I'm sorry you feel that way....


Here is just the summation of the charges. Since we have gone 300 posts with them actually never being posted,

II. USADA's Allegations Against Armstrong
On June 12, 2012, USADA sent a notice letter to Armstrong, informing him it was opening
formal action against him and five others for their alleged roles in a doping conspiracy beginning in
January 1998. Specifically, USADA indicated it intended to pursue the following charges against
Armstrong:
(1) Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including
EPO,'4 blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.
(2) Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood
transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers
and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices),
testosterone, corticosteroids and masking agents.
(3) Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and corticosteroids.
(4) Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone,
and cortisone.
(5) Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity
involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule
violations.
(6) Aggravating circumstances justifying a period of ineligibility greater than the
standard sanction.
Defs.' Mot. Dism. [#33], Attach. 5 at 99. USADA claimed these alleged actions by Armstrong
violated the UCI ADR, WADC, and the USADA Protocol. Id. at 91. The letter further stated:
13 quoting USA Cycling's Bylaws, the Court is not indicating it believes Armstrong may sue to enforce them;
it includes them simply to illustrate one of the many potential conflicts in the rules USA Cycling has agreed to follow.
'4Erythropoietin, a prohibited substance which increases the number of red blood cells in the circulatory system
available to carry oxygen.
-7-
Case 1:12-cv-00606-SS Document 56 Filed 08/20/12 Page 7 of 30
With respect to Lance Armstrong, numerous riders, team personnel and others
will testify based on personal knowledge acquired either through observing
Armstrong dope or through Armstrong's admissions of doping to them that Lance
Armstrong used EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and cortisone during the
period from before 1998 through 2005, and that he had previously used EPO,
testosterone and hGH through 1996.
Numerous riders will also testify that Lance Armstrong gave to them,
encouraged them to use and/or assisted them in using doping products and/or
methods, including EPO, blood transfusions, testosterone and cortisone during the
period from 1999 through 2005.
Representatives of USADA have interviewed Dr. Martial Saugy, Director of
the Lausanne Anti-Doping Laboratory which analyzed the urine samples from the
2001 Tour of Switzerland. Dr. Saugy stated that Lance Armstrong's urine sample
results from the 2001 Tour of Switzerland were indicative of EPO use. Multiple
witnesses have also told USADA that Lance Armstrong told them he had tested
positive in 2001 and that the test result had been covered up.
Lance Armstrong's doping is further evidenced by the data from blood
collections obtained by the UCI from Lance Armstrong in 2009 and 2010. This data
is fully consistent with blood manipulation including EPO use and/or blood
transfusions.



Here is a summation of the District Court dismissal - also has never been posted


Today, the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Texas, Austin Division, dismissed Lance Armstrong lawsuit against the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency (USADA).

Agreement to Arbitrate

The court held that Armstrong agreed to arbitrate at least some of his claims. The court found that Armstrong agreed to abide by USA Cycling’s rules and those rules incorporate the USADA Protocol, which requires athletes to contest doping sanctions through arbitration. In addition, the court, citing R- 7 of the Supplementary Procedures, concluded that “Armstrong clearly and unmistakably agreed to arbitrate the question of arbitrability.” See AAA Supplementary Procedure for the Arbitration of Olympic Sport Doping Disputes, Annex D of USADA Protocol.

Due Process Challenges

The court also held that USADA’s arbitration rules, which follow the American Arbitration Association Rules (AAA), are sufficient to satisfy due process. The court first highlighted the requirements of due process by stating that “An essential principle of due process is that a deprivation of life, liberty, or property ‘be preceded by notice and opportunity for hearing appropriate to the nature of the case.”

The court found troubling the lack of detail in USADA’s notification of the charges. However, the court reasoned that enjoining USADA from proceeding further would have no practical effect because USADA could re-issue a more detailed letter and USADA’s counsel had agreed to provide Armstrong with more detailed disclosures of the charges at a time reasonably before arbitration.

Citing Gilmer v. Interstate/Johnson Lane Corp., 500 U.S. 20, 30-32 & n.4 (1991), the court rejected Armstrong’s claims of bias of arbitration panels and said, “Like the Supreme Court, this court declines to assume either the pool of potential arbitrators, or the ultimate arbitral panel itself, will be unwilling or unable to render a conscientious decision based on the evidence before it. Further, Armstrong has ample appellate avenues open to him, first to the Court of Arbitration for Sport (CAS), where he is entitled to de novo review, and then to the courts of Switzerland, as permitted by Swiss law, if he so elects. Further, the record shows CAS routinely grants hearings in cases such as Armstrong’s, and this Court declines to presume it will break with tradition in this particular instance.”
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 27, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
The Chief...The Iranian commy jew boys didn't last very long...? What the fuk did you do to em...? RJain...
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2012 - 06:25pm PT
Pound speaks up:

The former president of the World Anti-Doping Agency Dick Pound today said USADA's lifetime ban of Lance Armstrong "is not a witch hunt, it's a duty", and called for the sport's governing body, the UCI, to engage in a "truth and reconciliation exercise" in order to rid the sport of doping and move forward.

Pound, an attorney, former vice president of the International Olympic Committee and current IOC member for Canada, has been keeping a close eye on USADA's case against Armstrong and his attempts to block it from moving forward to arbitration where all the evidence would be heard in public.

"I thought frankly it was rather desperate," Pound said of the district court filing. "Any well informed lawyer would have been able to tell him it was not going to prevail."

"It's not an untypical tactic. [Armstrong] was very careful about what he said. The fact of the matter is he fought tooth and nail to keep this from going to arbitration, and the court said 'no, sorry that's the route you have to go'. He [effectively] said, 'well, in that case I'm not going to fight anymore'. All of a sudden he turns from the world's toughest fighter to not even contesting it? Decide what you like."

Pound says that the process is not over, that the evidence, or at least some of it, will come out.

Should the reports that Armstrong was warned of impending doping controls and had positive tests covered up by the sport's governing body prove to be true, Pound says that, "If there is substance to the speculation it could have a serious impact on the sport and its credibility".

As for Armstrong's fans, Pound said, "A lot of people bought into the image and to see that crumbling away over the last two or three years, and now smashed into pieces, it's unsettling [for them]. They feel badly for him, about him and about themselves for having bought it."

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/pound-calls-for-truth-and-reconciliation-for-cycling

RJain...

The MR. They only got as far as Thor and they were toast. Done... end of story.


First time in their entire lives they ever attempted anything like that. They gave it a rather valiant try I must say. Had to carry one of their packs all the way down from LBS on the descent to the Portal Store.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 27, 2012 - 07:00pm PT
If the goal is to "clean-up" the "sport", then why are so many admitted dopers granted immunity so that one guy gets nailed. This is no house cleaning, it's a sham.

Are they claiming that Mr. Armstrong single-handedly introduced, supported, encouraged, advocated, ... the use of doping products and techniques?


V E N D E T T A !!

The best solution would be to ban competitive bicycling totally for 10 years. They're all guilty. Maybe the riders could get a job pinch-running in baseball.

Don't look back, they might be gaining on you

locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Aug 27, 2012 - 07:31pm PT



I ride CLEAN!!!...

Credit: locker
...



Argon

climber
North Bay, CA
Aug 27, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
I was waiting for Pound Dick to weigh in. It's not that I disagree with these guys - I just think their priorities are screwed up. The retroactivity of the process bothers me too. What if we had samples from every athlete in every sport from every year? How would we deal with the findings?

The rule for every sport should be as follows: In each season (or event), you have a battery of tests, technology and testing protocols that you inform the athletes of. During that season (or event) they are subject to the various tests. If they pass the tests, it is declared that they passed - period. It would not be stated that an athlete was clean - just that he or she had passed the requisite tests in place at that time. There wouldn't be rules that specified what you can and can't take - the only rule would be not to fail the tests in place at that time. There would be no saving samples for re-testing years and decades down the road with new technologies, no further investigations or testimony from witnesses as to who was actually doing what. If you fail a test, shame on you. You are disqualified and must suffer the consequences. If you pass, congratulations. You have played by the rules and "honored" the requirement of not failing - either because you are truly clean or due to your superior technology and masking techniques. Cleanliness or cleverness - either way we don't give a shtt as long as you pass the tests.
Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:13pm PT
The king of the ST Dopers has a problem with dopers that ride bikes
Typical BS

They hate what they are, and diss others like them
locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:21pm PT


Dude's a doper just like Dr F...

Dr F has to "dope" just to ride his bike down to Circle K...



Dr. F.

Ice climber
SoCal
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:23pm PT
I've passed all the many Doper tests that I have taken

So you must be high to be insinuating that I am a Doper
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:28pm PT
Well Locker, we all knew that you were clean (you'll wonder where the yellow went, when you brush your teeth with pepsodent), but have you ever stolen a base? Base-jumped, free-based?



Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 27, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
If you pass, congratulations. You have played by the rules and "honored" the requirement of not failing - either because you are truly clean or due to your superior technology and masking techniques. Cleanliness or cleverness - either way we don't give a shtt as long as you pass the tests.
Exactly. No more of this sour grapes, empowering the f'ing losers years down the line BS we are seeing here. They couldn't prove it at the time: they lost. Their technology sucked, Lance was too good, whatever. That's too bad, so sad, accept your loss like a good sportsman.

Instead, they drag this out like vindictive succubi, spending countless dollars in investigations and rehashing the past like an ex with an ax to grind. It's shameful and graceless behavior. They should have given Lance the friendly "you're number one" salute to let him know they know, spread a little vicious slander, and then moved on to catch vermin in real time, but they are just too power hungry and eager to skewer a big fish with their greased up fancy new pole.

Nobody wins in this deal, we all get f'd. No wonder I don't give a crap for most any of these organized sports dopes or the whining sports commentators anymore. We've replaced winners with whiners, a true poverty of a trade.
Hawkeye

climber
State of Mine
Aug 27, 2012 - 09:05pm PT
this is the most f*#ked up thread on st. its like a bunch of bikers on a biker thread bitchin about rap placed bolts. f*#kin ignorance but what do you expect from someone with little man complex like the sh#t.
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 27, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
this is the most f*#ked up thread on st. its like a bunch of bikers on a biker thread bitchin about rap placed bolts. f*#kin ignorance but what do you expect from someone with little man complex like the sh#t.

Terrible analogy. I liked my greased up pronging of Lance imagery better. But, then again, I'm possibly homosexual.
locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Aug 27, 2012 - 09:10pm PT


"I've passed all the many Doper tests that I have taken

So you must be high to be insinuating that I am a Doper"
...


You're lying just like Lance...

You could at least SHARE!!!...
jstan

climber
Aug 27, 2012 - 09:22pm PT
Face it guys. The TDF is for wussies.

Credit: jstan



rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Aug 27, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
Locker..Glad to see you made it to the pros...Did they test you for blood packing...?
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Aug 27, 2012 - 11:08pm PT
This feels analogous to an instant replay during the Superbowl. It's the last play of the fourth quarter and the score is tied. A field goal is successfully made, however a facemask foul is called on the scoring team. The referees can't be certain how to call the play so they analyze the replay footage, then make a determination. The call is made official: no foul. One team wins, the other loses.

Fast forward 6 years. Newer technology allows the instant reply film footage to be analyzed from a different angle, due to new developments in Multiple Angle Inverted Focus Imaging Technology®. The images that six years earlier were at an ambiguous angle on the film and lead to the controversial referee call which decided the Superbowl victors, now are decisive and clearly shown. The clear implication is that the referee's call of the play was obviously and absolutely defective. The call was clearly wrong.

The NFL retroactively nullifies the Superbowl results and strikes the winning team from the Superbowl pantheon.


--------



DNA evidence which was connected to Doc Ellis on June 12, 1970, the date he pitched a no-hitter against the the Padres, has recently been analyzed and tested positive for LSD. Baseball's National League has introduced retroactive drug enforcement codes and by-laws and has nullified the no-hitter and thus altered the 1970 baseball season results {mathematicians are fabricating a complex numerical model to determine the retroactive and reconfigured National League results for 1970}.

Ellis had taken the drug believing he had the day off. He threw the no-hitter despite being unable to feel the ball or see the batter or catcher clearly. Ellis said his catcher Jerry May wore reflective tape on his fingers which helped him see May's signals. Ellis walked eight batters and struck out six, and was aided by excellent fielding plays by second baseman Bill Mazeroski and center fielder Matty Alou. Doc Ellis' own statements were introduced as evidence against him in the retroactive ruling:

"I can only remember bits and pieces of the game. I was psyched. I had a feeling of euphoria. I was zeroed in on the [catcher's] glove, but I didn't hit the glove too much. I remember hitting a couple of batters, and the bases were loaded two or three times. The ball was small sometimes, the ball was large sometimes, sometimes I saw the catcher, sometimes I didn't. Sometimes, I tried to stare the hitter down and throw while I was looking at him. I chewed my gum until it turned to powder. I started having a crazy idea in the fourth inning that Richard Nixon was the home plate umpire, and once I thought I was pitching a baseball to Jimi Hendrix, who to me was holding a guitar and swinging it over the plate. They say I had about three to four fielding chances. I remember diving out of the way of a ball I thought was a line drive. I jumped, but the ball wasn't hit hard and never reached me."





Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Aug 28, 2012 - 08:07am PT
Now, THAT'S ^^^^ how you post. Excellent, excellent, excellent....
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 28, 2012 - 08:24am PT
Concerning Ellis, did they also test to make sure that he hadn't taken a steriod masker that gives a false positive for LSD?

Satchel Paige never used drugs. Give him the no-hitter and Armstrong's seven titles, I say.

crunch

Social climber
CO
Aug 28, 2012 - 11:09am PT
It's unfortunate and embarrassing how this is happening so long after all his wins but I think it's only now becoming apparent the scale and cynicism that, according to these allegations, went into Armstrong's doping efforts. To take away his wins makes a horrible mess in the cycling world but to do nothing, knowing what they know now, would look worse.

Great article, Chief. Thanks.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/opinion/sunday/how-to-get-doping-out-of-sports.html?_r=3&ref=opinion&pagewanted=all

Disclaimer: I really don't give a damn, except that by cleaning up other sports, there's maybe a better chance that our own will stay more or less the anarchic, fun, not-so-overtly-competitive sport that we all know.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 28, 2012 - 11:38am PT
If the only way to keep a game clean is rigorous anti-doping testing then the 'sport' has already failed by every measure that counts.
jstan

climber
Aug 28, 2012 - 11:53am PT
Disclaimer: I really don't give a damn, except that by cleaning up other sports, there's maybe a better chance that our own will stay more or less the anarchic, fun, not-so-overtly-competitive sport that we all know.

Can I take it you are therefore opposed to recognition of climbing as an Olympic sport?

Do you think your opposition will prove successful?

I fear the things you enjoyed are headed for the dustbin.

Happens.

The Olympic ideal of amateur sport, coming from its Greek origins where any citizen might compete, has been in the dustbin for quite some time. Practically speaking, climbing is well on its way toward joining this absurdity.



Time to move on.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Aug 28, 2012 - 12:14pm PT
Practically speaking, climbing is well on its way toward joining this absurdity.

Hmmmm. Yes, and no. The fact that professional and Olympic cycling are completely riddled with drugs, scandal, rules, bribery, conspiracy, and whatever else, does nothing whatsoever to prevent me from getting on my bike and doing the things I always loved to do on my bike.

And the fact that climbing might one day become what cycling is now won't prevent you, me, or anyone else from hiking up to the crag and doing what we've always done.

And since climbing is so mind-meltingly boring to watch, I don't see how it's ever going to become a big-time sport.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 28, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
The Olympic ideal of amateur sport, coming from its Greek origins where any citizen might compete, has been in the dustbin for quite some time. Practically speaking, climbing is well on its way toward joining this absurdity.

Sad, but true - an inevitable outcome of climbing gyms.
guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Aug 28, 2012 - 12:55pm PT
Lovegasolene

+150

one of the best ever on the Taco.

Almost same thing happened to me.....
I was head of French frys at Burger Chief...

Big day off..... do a dose, then the boss calls.

"Timmy called in sick, I need you down here fast"

I was able to make Golden Brown Fries at breakneck pace.

I wonder if they want my paycheck back??


jstan

climber
Aug 28, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
And since climbing is so mind-meltingly boring to watch, I don't see how it's ever going to become a big-time sport.

You are an optimist David.

The importers of african lions to Rome looked at their audience and figured out how to make money off those lions.

OK. You take it from there concerning climbing as an audience thing.

My optimism this election year has grown paper thin.
thetennisguy

Mountain climber
Yuba City, CA
Aug 28, 2012 - 01:16pm PT
His main accuser ... doper Floyd Landis ... need I say more?

He passed every doping test they game him.

Do the French really want an American to win their race 7 x's ? They were all over him for years and couldn't pin anything on him after testing him so many times in each race!

Do we really trust the USADA like we would a court in this country? Armstrong is being tried by the USADA in the court of public opinion ...

Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 28, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
So I guess Hincapie has only ridden for 2 TDF winners?
10b4me

Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
Aug 28, 2012 - 02:12pm PT
Marion Jones passed one hundred and sixty doping tests. she failed the next one, and admitted she was guilty.

as far as climbing in the olympics, it will just be another contrived event.
wilbeer

Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny,sawdust does not work like chalk
Aug 28, 2012 - 02:36pm PT
every big man lance beat on his way to 7,ulrich,pantini,vinakorov,even contador were busted,lance and his doctors just knew how to do it.you can believe that.i am a lifelong cyclist .
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Aug 28, 2012 - 03:00pm PT
god I love that lsd video! I watched it twice.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 28, 2012 - 05:17pm PT
"Running should be a pastime," ... "All sports should be a pastime. There shouldn't be all this professional stuff.

Ed Whitlock, holder of almost all age group running records.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 29, 2012 - 07:37am PT

Tyler Hamilton book now set for Sept. 5 release


LOS ANGELES (AP) — Tyler Hamilton's tell-all book about Lance Armstrong and doping in cycling will be released two weeks earlier than originally planned.

"The Secret Race: Inside the Hidden World of the Tour de France: Doping, Cover-ups, and Winning at All Costs," is now scheduled for release Sept. 5.

Ballantine Bantam Dell touts the book as the "first deeply detailed window into one of the defining sports stories of our time."

Armstrong said last week he would not pursue arbitration in a case brought by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, which stripped his record seven Tour de France titles.

Included in the case was Hamilton's interview with "60 Minutes" claiming he had personal knowledge of Armstrong doping.

Armstrong has steadfastly denied doping but said he was tired of fighting USADA.

Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/sports/article/Tyler-Hamilton-book-now-set-for-Sept-5-release-3822871.php#ixzz24wiXWJii

dee ee

Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
Aug 29, 2012 - 10:44am PT
I'm looking forward to Tyler's book.
S.Leeper

Social climber
somewhere that doesnt have anything over 90'
Aug 30, 2012 - 06:46pm PT
Lance wants us all to "move forward"


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oy0GFjC5v4&feature=player_embedded
Jaybro

Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
Aug 30, 2012 - 08:35pm PT
I had never seen that LSD video, genius.

That would be great if they could eliminate doping, btw!
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 30, 2012 - 09:25pm PT
I didn't sell it to him, but I think Doc Ellis took DMT that day, not LSD.


Several speculative and yet untested hypotheses suggest that endogenous DMT is produced in the human brain and is involved in certain psychological and neurological states.


The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2012 - 09:47pm PT
A report in the New York Daily News, which has also obtained a copy of the book, details the unexpected meeting between Hamilton and Armstrong in an Aspen restaurant, shortly after the airing of the 60 Minutes segment. Hamilton writes:


"When you're on the witness stand, we are going to f---ing tear you apart," Armstrong is alleged to have said. "You are going to look like an f---ing idiot."

Hamilton also claims that once he began cooperating with the federal investigation, he believes his phones and emails were hacked.

Hamilton explains that his own drug use began before Armstrong joined the team in 1998 but that Armstrong provided him with EPO shortly before the 1999 Tour de France. Hamilton was with Armstrong at the latter's home in Nice, France at the time. He also details the doping plan for the team during the race, which he alleges took place with Armstrong's knowledge, which included a motorcyclist travelling behind the convoy with a thermos of EPO that would be given to the riders following the stage. Hamilton also says that team management encouraged and supervised the use of PEDs and that they were distributed in white lunch bags.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/hamilton-says-armstrong-gave-him-epo-before-1999-tour-de-france


OF course, Tyler as the rest of the folks that are coming out regarding all this deceit and out right organized cheating, are all complete liars.

The only one telling the absolutely truth is LA.

As the days progress, so will the evidence and testimonies of this entire operation to win at all cost will come out.

I could give a ratass if LA doped. I do care that he continues to insist that he never did and that everyone but he is lying.

LA is just another perfect example of the times.... arrogance of power, fame and money.

His net worth is well over $142 million. 2/3rds of that comes from them yellow bands and all the other "Livestrong" paraphernalia that are supposedly going to research/cure cancer.


Brilliant... you bet. But like all the other modern day scammers that have come and gone, the truth always prevails. Sad deal is that many of them go off to some island and live it up.

Sure would be nice to hear what Crow has to say about the dude.
Srbphoto

climber
Kennewick wa
Aug 30, 2012 - 10:06pm PT
A NEW TWIST

USADA responds to Liggett's claims of bribery in Armstrong case

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/usada-responds-to-liggetts-claims-of-bribery-in-armstrong-case


Ashenden calls commenator's claims 'ignorant'

USADA has issued a stinging response following veteran cycling commentator Phil Liggett's interview where the 69-year-old suggested that witnesses had been paid for giving evidence against Lance Armstrong in the agency's investigation into doping and conspiracy.

Speaking with South Africa's Ballz Radio on August 27, Liggett questioned the merits of USADA's case.

"Why is USADA doing this?" he repeatedly posed. "It's politically motivated. They have a reason for doing this and it's not what they say - it's not to clean up the sport of cycling. There is another reason behind this which they are clearly not saying."

Last week, Armstrong announced that he would not fight USADA's charges of doping and conspiracy which resulted in the agency stripping him of all results, including his seven Tour de France titles, obtained on and subsequent to August 1, 1998 and then issuing a lifetime ban.

Liggett continued: "I could get 10 people together and say, ‘I don't like you. And you take drugs.' But I have no proof. So the fact remains there is no evidence." According to the commentator, who has business interests with Armstrong, USADA is "a nefarious local drugs agency" before going on to claim that it was corrupt.

"Now I can tell you one thing," Liggett said. "And I could prove it in SA [South Africa] but I ... I met a chap who worked with Armstrong on Saturday in Boulder Colorado. And he told me that he had a visit, two years ago, to tell, and the question was, they were agents from a particular agency and they said: ‘Will you tell us that Lance Armstrong took EPO? And we could assure that you will never want for money again'. That was his quote on Thursday and he told them in words I can't put on radio what to do with that and they said "I think we're talking to the wrong man" and they walked away.

"I believe that these 10 witnesses who have all admitted apparently to seeing Lance take drugs, or selling drugs or passing them on and they themselves taking drugs - the reason they're witnesses is they've either been paid or they've been given a deal that they'll never be touched as far as suspensions go."

In response to the claims, USADA issued the following:

"It is blatantly false information from someone who has never had the courtesy to contact USADA for truthful and accurate information," said USADA media relations manager, Annie Skinner.

Meantime, former independent UCI biological passport panel member Dr. Michael Ashenden has written an open letter to Liggett calling his claims ‘ignorant'.

Published on nyvelocity.com, Ashenden says:

"But to answer your question, USADA is not doing this just because of Lance Armstrong. Instead, its about a conspiracy. You can find that word often in USADA's charging letter. A conspiracy that has infested cycling for over a decade. A conspiracy whose filthy tentacles still strangle sport today. A conspiracy that needs to be excised like a cancerous growth."


The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 30, 2012 - 10:27pm PT
Great OPED here:

Speaking in front of the World Cancer Congress in Montreal on Wednesday, Armstrong introduced himself thusly:

"My name is Lance Armstrong. I am a cancer survivor. I'm a father of five. And, yes, I won the Tour de France seven times."

The first part of his introduction is an honorable legacy. The last part is a lie. The real sadness here is that Armstrong no longer seems to understand the difference. And, frankly, you have to wonder if America does, either.

In the week since Armstrong was finally flattened over drug charges that have been floating around forever, it appears the cyclist and his fans have actually become empowered by the punch. Armstrong refuses to acknowledge his cheating, his fans have staunchly declared that they don't care, and both parties have ripped those who would dare question them.

Don't folks realize that you can live strong without living unfairly?

As long as Armstrong keeps his cycling charade alive, the cancer message will be slowly drowned out, The sooner Armstrong admits he is a cheater, the sooner he can resume the business of being an inspiration.


http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-plaschke-lance-armstrong-20120831-9,0,1276265.column
Degaine

climber
Aug 31, 2012 - 12:19am PT
The Chief,

Just curious, why do you impugn Lance but not the rest of professional cycling?

All those other guys testifying were complicit to say the least and totally willing to take performance enhancing drugs. No one forced them and they could have easily bowed out of competing.

Or perhaps bowing out or refusing to cheat is easier said than done and all cyclists get caught up in the system, cede to the pressures and compromise their values since, as this is their livelihood, they see no other way out (as perhaps many of us do in our careers, daily lives, etc.).

You have to admit that the viewing audience is a bit schizophrenic with regard to cycling: condemning drug use while at the same time demanding that the athletes ride faster and go beyond what is humanly possible (with out doping). The sponsors are complicit, too. Both implicitly condones this behavior while hiding behind the fact that drug testing exists, then act outraged when one gets caught.

I don't know which I find more disgusting, the rampant doping in cycling, or the fact that cyclists, once one of "their own" is caught, throw the guilty so easily under the bus.

Humans are not perfect, and that includes Lance Armstrong. He may be a dick in person (can't say, never met him), and he probably took performance enhancing substances during his career (as every other TdF competitor did), but perhaps his great work for cancer makes up for or is some form of repentance for his "sins" as a rider.

Honest question, what has Hamilton done for cancer lately? Lemond?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2012 - 07:04am PT
So the fact that someone's true level of personal integrity is in question, is totally negated because they have done something on the side that is honorable?


Old Bernie Madoff contributed large amounts (100's of 1000's) of his scammed funds to several local and international children's and homeless charities. Does that negate his over all behavior?

Like I said, LA has made 2/3 of his total worth from proceeds of the LIVESTRONG name.


Hmmmmm....

Like the oped I posted states:

Don't folks realize that you can live strong without living unfairly?



PS: There are many others out there with tons of money that have contributed time and money to cancer and other medical research. Most of those folks wish to do so silently, completely out of the limelight and with humility.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 31, 2012 - 07:15am PT
RIP Art Heyman (ave: 25.1 points, 10.9 rebounds) for Duke and led them to first Final Four in 1963.

Rode on others' shoulders, but didn't dope.




zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 31, 2012 - 07:21am PT
Well (The) Chief. I guess you're right. Mr. Amrstrong should be lynched.

Along with all the other dopers in bicycling. Isn't Contador an admitted doper? Associates of LeMond say he did (oops he's already been shot).

Should Tyler Hamilton, an admitted doper, make money off tattling on Armstrong. Where's his non-disclosure?

Like I said, ban bicycle racing for ten years.

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2012 - 07:29am PT
I find it rather interesting how the proverbial deal comes out...

"He did it so it's ok that I did it too..."



I remember the first time I went to MAST. I was told by my first Chief, "don't ever dare say that "He did it so it's ok that I did it too" to the Skipper as you will get hammered far worse than you could ever imagine."

"Man up to what you did, take the heat, learn from it and move on!"





Here is one of those silent "Caner Survivor" folks that has lived the code of honor since day one.

Thing is, the gig he lives by does not allow for dishonorable behavior.

http://www.fox43tv.com/dpps/news/local/former-seal-takes-every-breath-against-cancer_4403412

"I realized, 'Wait a minute.' Every time anybody's every told me I can't do something, that's when I get it done. I said, 'How many SEALs have you treated before?' She said, 'None, you're the first.' I said, 'Watch this!'"

Legg was diagnosed with Acute Lymphoblast Leukemia. Fifty rounds of chemotherapy and a bone marrow transplant weren't enough. Legg had a Graft VS Host disease, slowly destroying his body.

"It attacked my skin, me eyes, my mouth, my entire digestive tract. Later on my lungs got involved," Justin Legg said. "I was in the hospital for 73 days. I lost 60 to 65 pounds. I lost the ability to walk."

Legg never lost faith, though he went through a range of emotions during his battle.

"I was angry," Justin said. "I was like, 'Why is this all happening to me? This is not fair. I've been a pretty
good person my entire life.'"

In May 2010 doctors told him he had three to four months to live unless he had a double lung transplant. With time running out, he got a ray of hope from the Florida in the form of two healthy lungs from 19-year-old Jarred McKinley Carter of Titusville, Fl.

For more than a year, Justin did not know who was behind the donation as organ donors are kept confidential.

Now, Justin Legg is training for the Rock N' Roll half marathon to raise money for the memory of Jarred McKinley Carter. If he raises $50,000, the Leukemia Lymphoma Society will name a research grant in honor of the teen who gave him a chance to breathe

Now there is one honorable dude..... lots more where he came from btw.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Aug 31, 2012 - 09:25am PT
We need increased drug enforcement, expanded drug wars, and a new Honorary Drug Marshall.

































[quote]http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z276/kennyrk/elvis-nixon.jpg[/quote]
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Aug 31, 2012 - 09:26am PT
We need increased drug enforcement, expanded drug wars, and a new Honorary Drug Marshall.








































We also need to drug test the prosecutors, investigators, and witnesses.
FInd Mr. Clean!



Fletcher

Trad climber
Fumbling towards stone
Aug 31, 2012 - 10:36am PT
More nuance and thoughtful consideration from Red Kite Prayer.

http://redkiteprayer.com/2012/08/forgoing-judgement/

Also, a larger perspective by Frank Deford on doping/drugs in sports in general:

http://www.npr.org/2012/08/29/160167958/just-say-no-doping-diminishes-all-athletes

cheers,
Eric

P.S. That Doc Ellis LSD no hitter story was amazing! I followed baseball religiously when I was a kid (when that happened) but had no clue. Very entertaining. He told a good story. RIP.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Aug 31, 2012 - 11:03am PT
Chief, the thing about your diatribe that bothers, is that LA has NOT been convicted of anything, anywhere.

Here in America, there has always been a standard of innocent until proven guilty.

but you throw that out.

LA may be guilty, he may even be LIKELY to be guilty, but one can state with CERTAINTY that YOU DON"T KNOW.

He has just emerged from a legal process that involved the US Gov't, with substantial legal powers, clean....that involved the SAME PEOPLE that are running the current process.

The couldn't convict him, or even indict him, under the rules.

So what do they do, change the rules. And make it clear that they will keep changing the rules until 80 year old Lance Armstrong, dead for 10 years, is convicted.

On the face of it, it appears agenda driven, not objective.
"We're gonna get that guy"

And as you learned in the navy, if a Chief wants to get a guy, he will.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Aug 31, 2012 - 11:06am PT
Chief, dude, back off, your lifer tude is showing thru. You're a tool thru and thru
Degaine

climber
Aug 31, 2012 - 11:29am PT
The Chief,

If you prefer to be a f*#king dick and not actually read someone's post then at least have the courtesy to write that you're just looking rant and don't give a sh#t about the opinions or thoughts of others. That way we'll steer clear and not respond in any way shape or form.

Admit it, you didn't read a word of my post and just decided to lash out and be a total cöcksucker since I don't demonize and vilify Lance to the same hyperbolic extent that you do.

Are you so frustrated about being old that you need to take it out on others in the way that you do?

I sure hope that when my days are numbered and have one foot in the grave as you do that I don't act like a bitter f*#king c*#ks@cker during a simple exchange about something as insignificant in the grand scheme of things as professional cycling.
Lovegasoline

Trad climber
Sh#t Hole, Brooklyn, NY
Aug 31, 2012 - 11:47am PT
Chief, the thing about your diatribe that bothers, is that LA has NOT been convicted of anything, anywhere.

Here in America, there has always been a standard of innocent until proven guilty.

but you throw that out.

LA may be guilty, he may even be LIKELY to be guilty, but one can state with CERTAINTY that YOU DON"T KNOW.

He has just emerged from a legal process that involved the US Gov't, with substantial legal powers, clean....that involved the SAME PEOPLE that are running the current process.

The couldn't convict him, or even indict him, under the rules.


Agreed.
A whole lotta people jumping into the breech.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Aug 31, 2012 - 11:53am PT
I guess the old term "LA turnaround" has taken on new meaning.

I would like to see a gradation of doping artifacts:

For example:

EPO alone
EPO supplemented with blood transfusion
EPO with blood and an LA turnaround
EPO with blood and LA turnarmound and anabolic steriod

you got it ...

With complete divulging of the various enhancers there could be tiered competitions.

I don't know who gets paid the most, the volume users or the skinflints.

And just like Willard Romney, this would all be done on the "honor" system.





Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Aug 31, 2012 - 11:58am PT
As much as The Chief likes to spew about truth and honesty, "truth" is the last thing he is interested in. He is only interested in seeing Lance Armstrong get screwed out of his TDF titles.

As if it weren't clear enough before, this clearly demonstrates The Chief's extreme bias:

Old Bernie Madoff contributed large amounts (100's of 1000's) of his scammed funds to several local and international children's and homeless charities. Does that negate his over all behavior?

Only a truly warped individual would compare Lance Armstrong with Bernie Madoff in any context.

Curt

Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 31, 2012 - 11:58am PT
Nice post Ken M (as usual). Lance A is innocent until shown otherwise. And it hasn't been shown otherwise.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
Reality strikes as noted in the OPED I posted:

Armstrong refuses to acknowledge his cheating, his fans have staunchly declared that they don't care, and both parties have ripped those who would dare question them.

He is going down. When it all comes out as it will in the next couple of weeks, it will be interesting to see how you all react then.

Most likely in the same manner as you are now.


Denial.....
Crimpergirl

Sport climber
Boulder, Colorado!
Aug 31, 2012 - 12:26pm PT
For me, if there is evidence he cheated which leads to a 'conviction' of it, I'll simply think 'he cheated, he's guilty, he should be stripped of any titles he earned while cheating.'

Until then, he is innocent until proven guilty. Pretty straightforward to me.
can't say

Social climber
Pasadena CA
Aug 31, 2012 - 12:27pm PT
Lifer = Tool
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
In short, the Lance Armstrong case represents a set of questions that goes well beyond sports. What does it mean to be human? What is permissible "enhancement?" What is fairness in the race of life? What values should guide this conversation: the long-term health of individuals and society or the. short-term demands for high performance? the desires of the individual (or a child's parents) or the interests of the broader community? the individual freedom to choose or the goal of equality that may demand the restriction of individual liberty?

The Armstrong case should alert us to something -- a set of value conflicts and questions -- that demands our ethical attention before it explodes and leaves us wondering how we got where we are. There may be no drug to undo any damage when that day comes.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/terry-newell/lance-armstrong_b_1832707.html

It’s hard to understand how someone who is publicly celebrated as a hero could break the rules. We teach kids from an early age that cheating is wrong. But all around them, they see examples of athlete role models — Marion Jones, Mark McGwire, Tiger Woods, the list goes on — doing it in sports and in life. The message: Cheating is O.K. if you really, really want something and if you think you won’t get caught.

The response from my kids and their friend? Silence. Then they were scrambling out of the car, eager to start their day at sailing camp.

Had I not made an impression or were the kids just excited to navigate a catamaran? For some perspective on how to further parse the situation, I reached out to Larry Lauer of the Institute for the Study of Youth Sports at Michigan State University.

Lauer also works as a sports-psychology consultant and has counseled everyone from professional athletes to a 9-year-old hockey player. To all of them, he says: Think about the consequences of how you will eventually be viewed because of your actions today. “It goes back to what’s important to you,” says Lauer. “Do you want to be known as a cheater or someone who does things the right way? You need to think about what you value and how you want to be known.”

http://healthland.time.com/2012/08/24/lance-armstrong-how-to-talk-cheating-to-kids/

"Phil I work full-time as an antidoping researcher. I specialize in the field of blood doping, so a lot of my time has been spent trying to find a test that can detect when athletes use blood transfusion. I’ve been half successful – we can now catch athletes if they transfuse someone else’s blood. However, during Armstrong’s era there was no test able to catch them if they gamed the system by reinfusing their own blood (‘autologous transfusion’). At the risk of stating the obvious, Armstrong could have bloated himself with a bag of stored blood every day of the week, and been tested 300 times per day, and he would still have been negative.

Which brings me to yet another point, Phil. You breathlessly proclaimed that Armstrong had passed more than 500 tests and was negative each time. I’ve worked in antidoping for a decade, but I’m not aware of anything that we can find in a urine sample that shows us that an athlete was in possession of a prohibited substance. I don’t know of any marker that indicates whether or not an athlete trafficked drugs. Similarly, I can assure you that labs cannot detect when an athlete has encouraged a teammate to take drugs. All of those are antidoping offenses under the WADA Code (review Article 2.2 if you need a refresher). They are also the essence of what Armstrong and his conspirators were charged with. Not to labor the point, but where does your 500-test-defense fit into that picture?"

Michael Ashenden, PhD in response to Phil Liggett

crunch

Social climber
CO
Aug 31, 2012 - 01:44pm PT
Nice post Ken M (as usual). Lance A is innocent until shown otherwise. And it hasn't been shown otherwise.

It's not quite so clear. He's said he's not fighting the allegations.

I'd construe this as the equivalent of pleading no contest. He accepts that the verdict, officially, will be guilty. He accepts that he will be stripped, officially, of his medals. He can state, honestly, that he was not "found" guilty. He can say he won the TDF seven times. Since the governing body will see this as the functional equivalent of a guilty plea, they can close their case. So, no more unpleasant allegations and stories will be surfacing, officially.

This, in the short term, suits everyone. In the longer term this is a bad ending to this saga. Bad because there is no resolution; see the ups and downs of this thread for instance. It's no ending at all.

One the one hand, the saga looks on the surface like the witch-hunt that Armstrong's supporters claim it to be. Maybe he never doped but was one of the greatest athletes of all time. The accusations are all trumped up out of jealously. Maybe he is, truly, tired of fighting.

On the other, perhaps he doped his entire career. Bit by bit, rumors have surfaced and, one by one, those who supported and enabled his doping have been persuaded to tell their tales. And now, with a mountain of evidence, leaving him no honorable way out, he's crying uncle.

This murky limbo of non-verdict is Armstrong's choice. The regular sporting and media world that fixates on winners and losers, stars, heroes. Armstrong took full advantage of this media game while he was a winner, a star.

Now he's refusing to play.

Even If he's innocent, he's really letting his fans down by crying uncle, refusing an honest accounting of what happened. Don't be so hard on the Chief; he's onto something here that goes deeper than one guy riding a bicycle.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2012 - 02:03pm PT
"Ah, a hero you ask? The real hero in this world is one who keeps faith in himself, his personality, his true identity, his integrity, his honor and in no one else. He directs his life as his heart dictates and not by the pressures of society. As I said many years ago, this is really difficult and for some impossible because we live in a society of compromises."

Walter Bonatti, Escalde Interview 2001
Dolomite

climber
Anchorage
Aug 31, 2012 - 02:07pm PT
Dang, Bullwinkle, tell us what you really think.

I'm with Indurain (and Ken M above):

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/sport/cycling/usada-has-no-legal-right-to-strip-lance-armstrong/story-fn8sc2wz-1226458458001
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 31, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
By doing what he did, LA has stopped the legal process that would have outted him in a legal sense. Thus ensuring his demise officially would not be allowed.

Fact is, when Johan Bruyneel and the two doctors face the court, evidence will come out that will include LA's actions.

When that happens, it will be interesting to see how all of LA's fans will react.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Aug 31, 2012 - 02:44pm PT
As an ex-Navy guy I have no compunction stating:

Credit: healyje
Riley Wyna

Trad climber
A crack near you
Sep 1, 2012 - 06:26am PT
Three really involved articles in Outside Mag that I just stumbled across -just read them all



http://www.outsideonline.com/

The second one gives you the best feel for Hamilton's book.
I really know nothing about any of these folks so I can read it all very unattached.
But I know what it is like to have my illusions destroyed concerning the honesty of a person or something that I believe in. Even to be involved with a psychopath incapable of honesty.
It has occurred at just about every level of my life at one time or another.
Career, personal, heroes, history and family.
It sucks...

Really sorry for the fans and many good people who have invested their hearts into this situation.

I'm looking forward to Hamilton's full book.
Mostly because it sounds like it will give an account of how deep corruption can and does go in any organization such as Government, hospitals, charity, religion, sports organizations, companies and our most cherished organizations.
Going to be an eye opener because folks very, very rarely have the courage to be as honest as Hamilton.
And as sports goes this story will explain a lot that goes far, far beyond cycling.
sullly

Trad climber
Sep 1, 2012 - 06:45am PT
What's also troubling is Armstrong has strong-armed well-known journalists. Upon slamming Lance, they are censored, sued or silenced. This smack of "the man"/Big Brother.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2012 - 07:15am PT
However the core of the problem doesn’t lie at the feet of just the professional riders. It rests with the media, the governing bodies, the fans, cycling’s culture, and as we’ve seen with Phil Liggett’s cringe-worthy statements, sometimes it’s better to refrain from talking at all. Ever again.

Those who have spoken out, Floyd Landis, Tyler Hamilton, Jorg Jaschke, Bernhard Kohl – yes, they’ve all cheated but they’ve all admitted their guilt – yet the UCI has ostracised them and in the case of Landis and Kimmage, brought legal proceedings against them. Not exactly an endorsement for standing up for what’s right, is it?

“On my team, Argos-Shimano, I’m encouraged to speak out,” says Koen de Kort. “They tell us to be honest against doping and we’re allowed to say that if riders are positive they should be banned. Maybe our team is a bit different from other teams.

“But talking about Armstrong, he was one of the greats of the sport but now this has come out and I think it’s hard for all of us. My team haven’t said I can’t talk about it but maybe riders are scared but I don’t know.

“While it’s happened in the past but my career is now and I’m riding now. I’d like to support clean riding and while what happened to him happened a long time ago it’s not good for the sport. On the other hand it’s important that this doesn’t happen again. Now we should be looking at sanction riders harder, maybe even for life.”

Removing the mask

Having been a face of omerta during the early phase of his cycling career, Jonathan Vaughters neatly sums omerta up as an ideal: “it’s a sociological as opposed to an individual effort to misguide the truth.”

While fear and self-preservation are recognised elements of omerta, one value that’s uttered a little less is respect. It may not be a palatable sentiment, having respect for Armstrong, but it exists and needs recognising.

Jan Ullrich, who also doped during his career, feels the same. Escartin too, and almost an entire generation that followed or were pushed down the same path of doping.

Coincidently, David Millar, who works alongside WADA and has been vocal about his support for anti-doping, was asked to comment when the news broke regarding Armstrong. He refused to speak about the matter with Cyclingnews, later tweeting that he would pen his thoughts on Armstrong after USADA had made their evidence public.

"At one end of the spectrum you’ve got riders and team managers who are perpetuating omerta because they’re engaged in doping or have been in the past," says television commentator Gary Imlach.

"At the other end, I think there are ordinary riders who, like most people, just want a quiet life and to get on with the people they have to work with every day, so from that point of view you can sympathise to some extent with people not wanting to put their heads above the parapet.

"And I think from inside cycling they often perceive media coverage of doping as a sort of hostile act instead of something aimed at helping the sport so they develop a bit of a bunker mentality about it. So even perfectly clean riders who are above all suspicion are on the defensive the moment the subject is raised. And who knows whether that’s because they’re weak or afraid, or because they simply want to concentrate on riding their bikes without having to deal with unpleasant and uncomfortable issues.

"Having said that, there comes a point where you have a responsibility to speak out and very few riders have. Who knows, there might be more by way of a response if and when the full evidence against Armstrong ever gets a proper airing."

Yet Armstrong, while the focal point for now, isn’t the broader issue. Just like the Festina team of 1998, or the Puerto clients of 2006, he’s the symptom: a product of a system that allowed someone to prosper, succeed and dominate through a concoction of money, fear, power, lies, drugs, intimidation and outright success. He became rich and he took a lot of people along for the ride, be they manufacturers, teammates, sponsors or the UCI.

If the riders are going to be encouraged to speak out it’s up for rest of cycling, and the UCI to act. The sport’s governing body has remained under their rock for too long, allowing for a passive acceptance of omerta and silence to reign. It’s time for them to wake up, and it’s time for that reporter in Colorado to turn the camera around and ask himself the tough questions.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/the-united-states-of-omerta

A social dilemma. The virtue of integrity and simply doing what is right, regardless the peer pressure to succeed, has diminished and been replaced with winning and being the best, at all or any cost. Including throwing away ones honor and integrity.

Quality.... NOT Quantity has been replaced with Quantity.... NOT Quality.

This disease prevails throughout our society.


As CRUNCH posted above, this very sad issue has nothing to do with the dude riding the bike... not one bit.
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 1, 2012 - 09:24am PT
He is going down. When it all comes out as it will in the next couple of weeks, it will be interesting to see how you all react then.


What you mean, is you wonder how we will all respond when confronted with actual EVIDENCE?

Gosh, isn't that what we SHOULD respond to?

What are YOU reacting to, since you admit that the evidence is NOT out?

Rumor, accusation, suspicion.

I notice that you did not respond to my comment that if a Chief wants to "get" a sailor, they will. You are obviously proud of that system, and that way of justice.

This morning, I heard an interesting segment on NPR about George Takai

http://www.npr.org/2012/09/01/160264485/george-takei-takes-story-of-internment-to-the-stage

But his latest project aims to bring a different kind of story to the stage, one with personal and historical resonance. The actor was born in Los Angeles to a Japanese-American family just a few years before Japan's bombing of Pearl Harbor. After that 1941 attack, he and his family were among the tens of thousands of U.S. citizens of Japanese descent who were forced to move to internment camps.

"We were first taken from our home ... in Los Angeles to a horse stable at a race track, San Anita Race Track, near Los Angeles. And we were there for a few months while the camps were being built. And from there we were taken to the swamps of southeastern Arkansas. So, all the Japanese-Americans that were incarcerated followed that pattern: first, what's called an 'assembly center,' a very innocuous-sounding name, and from there to a 'relocation center,' another innocuous word."

"But there [was] another group of people who I admire equally. They're the ones that said, 'Yes, I'm an American and I will fight for this country, but I won't go as an internee from behind these barbed wire fences, leaving my family in imprisonment. I will go only on the condition that I go as an American; that I can report to my hometown draft board with my family in our home, and then I will serve.' And for that courageous and principled stand, they were tried and found guilty of draft evasion and put into federal penitentiaries.

"It was the sheet of paper that was to ascertain the loyalty of people that the government had imprisoned on the suspicion — merely the suspicion, not the guilt — of being potential spies, fifth columnists, traitors. Everyone over the age of 17 had to respond to it whether you were male or female, citizen or noncitizen. ... Question 27 asked 'Will you bear arms to defend the United States of America?' — this being asked of an 87-year-old immigrant lady as well as a 17-year-old young man. Even more insidious was the next question, Question 28. It asked, and I'm paraphrasing, but essentially it said, 'Will you swear your loyalty to the United States of America and foreswear your loyalty to the emperor of Japan?' The government assumed that if you're born with this face — even if you're an American, never been to Japan — that we are born with an organic, inborn loyalty to the emperor. It was offensive and the amazing thing was that so many young people answered yes to those two offensive questions and went and served."


What struck me about that, was that SUSPICION ONLY being the basis of punishment.

Chief, I don't know if your "name" coyly refers to an American Indian heritage, but if it does, why should you have been allowed to serve with the US Military? Don't you owe allegiance to another nation, the Indian Nations? Maybe that is why you were never a commissioned officer, you did't have the loyalty to the country?

Now that was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, as I don't doubt your loyalty for a second, and I apologize if offense was given. But you can see where this sort of thing leads.

We go your route, we can conveniently just forget all that pesky evidence and proof business, and just deal with people on the basis of appearance, or their last name, or rumors.

That's not the country you fought for.

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2012 - 10:19am PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ken:

So you are onboard with the belief that Hamilton, Landis, Andreu, and the other "witnesses" are all bought out, lying, and just plain talking shet about LA. That not one of em is telling the truth. That the only individual in the entire lot that is on the up and up is LA. That he never doped nor did he participate in the process of doing so for and with the entire Motorola/US Postal/Discovery/Radio Shack squads? That this entire deal has and always was a scheme to dethrone LA and greatest? That none of the "accusations" ever happened?

Then it is safe to assume that you also believe that OJ was innocent all along as well. He was found innocent of his actions and thus he too never did any of what he was accused of.... Right?



Armstrong refuses to acknowledge his cheating, his fans have staunchly declared that they don't care, and both parties have ripped those who would dare question them.

Oh how true....
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Sep 1, 2012 - 10:36am PT
Ken:

So you are onboard with the belief that Hamilton, Landis, Andreu, and the other "witnesses" are all bought out, lying, and just plain talking shet about LA. That not one of em is telling the truth. That the only individual in the entire lot that is on the up and up is LA. That he never doped nor did he participate in the process of doing so for and with the entire Motorola/US Postal/Discovery/Radio Shack squads? That this entire deal has and always was a scheme to dethrone LA and greatest? That none of the "accusations" ever happened?

Then it is safe to assume that you also believe that OJ was innocent all along as well. He was found innocent of his actions and thus he too never did any of what he was accused of.... Right?


I don't know about those people, I haven't see their sworn testimony. What did you think when you read it?

I think OJ did it. However, I actually heard the actual evidence, and after I did, I made a judgement.

By the way, I think the jury came to the correct verdict, based upon what was presented to them.

So you STILL won't respond to the allegation that Chief's will "get" a sailor if they want them gotten? Are you as guilty as LA, since you are choosing not to respond to an accusation? How many innocent sailors careers did you destroy, because you felt like it?
rottingjohnny

Sport climber
mammoth lakes ca
Sep 1, 2012 - 11:06am PT
Landis toured the country soliciting donations from his fan base for his legal defense...Floyd swore he was innocent ...Then he gets popped , exposing himself as a liar and cheat...Same thing happened with Hamilton more or less and eventually Hamilton is exposed for doping...An aquaintance that rode in the recent olympics shared a pitiful story about Tyler during his last competetions on US ground where Tyler was trying to convince other riders that he hadn't used PED's...Floyd and Tyler got caught and i can see how they would want Lance to be exposed but i think these 2 emotionally unstable athletes lack credibility...? I would speculate that Lance doped just like the rest of the peloton but until any evidence is brought forward it is just speculation...And i agree with Big Mig's opinions that USADA does not have the authority to ban UCI athletes...
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 1, 2012 - 11:29am PT
Just in: OJ and Paul Ryan plotting to lynch Lance Armstrong, but only to within an inch of his life since Paul is pro-life and OJ quite obviously isn't.



May seen fishy to you, it ain't nothin' to me



The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2012 - 12:16pm PT
So you STILL won't respond to the allegation that Chief's will "get" a sailor if they want them gotten?

Chiefs will do what is best for the Navy. The Navy is comprised of all the "Sailor/s" within it. If any young Sailor chooses to come to terms with the negative issues at hand which is/are distracting them from their full potential to succeed, regardless what that may be, is willing to be mentored and remembers that they took an oath and are paid every two weeks to give their best to be part of the Team, performs as they are trained/expected to, those Sailors are NOT "gotten."

If any Sailor chooses to not change their ways and play by the rules & regs, continues to lie, cheat and/or steal, he/she then will be "Gotten" rid of by the Chief. That is the Chiefs duty which he/she accepted the day they took the Chiefs Creed and put on the Hat. But only after the Chief does what is expected of them to motivate/discipline (look up the latin definition btw) that particular Sailor.

The Navy is not a democracy. It operates by a set standard of rules and regulations. In the different fields which I chose to partake in, sailors died if those rules and regs were not adhered to 100%.

I destroyed no Sailors career that they themselves chose to not destroy themselves by choosing to not conform to the Big Picture. To be frank, most of those were young JO's that decided that they could intimidate then screw my female sailors. That occurred three times towards the end of my 24 years.


Very simple and fair process. Yet so very difficult for some if not many here to understand or accept.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
If any Sailor chooses to not change their ways and play by the rules & regs, continues to lie, cheat and/or steal, he/she then will be "Gotten" rid of by the Chief. That is the Chiefs duty which he/she accepted the day they took the Chiefs Creed and put on the Hat. But only after the Chief does what is expected of them to motivate/discipline (look up the latin definition btw) that particular Sailor.

I don't disagree with this and the fact a great deal of what goes on in the military is mindless bullshit isn't necessarily the chiefs / master sargents fault per se. The job just happens to attract personality types who revel in it's use as a behavioral filter to help identify and assess the malcontents. The problem is, if you have an IQ over 100, then the stifling mindlessness of what passes [unexamined] as 'tradition' is overwhelmingly boorish and adolescent.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2012 - 12:31pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Maybe as you saw it there shipmate.

But in the heat and reality of general Helo SAR Ops, Helo Combat SAR Ops and general carrier flight deck operations, there is absolutely NO room nor any tolerance for deviates. Any deviation from set procedures and protocols, kills sailors. My primary duty as the Chief was to keep everyone safe/alive, at all costs.

It is apparent that neither you Ken nor healyje, personally experience nor partook in these types of strict operations. Thus your inability to comprehend and understand this philosophy.

BTW healyje, what duties did you perform when you were a "navy guy"?


An aquaintance that rode in the recent olympics shared a pitiful story about Tyler during his last competetions on US ground where Tyler was trying to convince other riders that he hadn't used PED's...Floyd and Tyler got caught and i can see how they would want Lance to be exposed but i think these 2 emotionally unstable athletes lack credibility...

And LA is of course emotionally stable.... evidenced by this occurrence which just so happened many times with different riders, over a period of 9 years within the pelaton:



This most recent event when LA was getting his ass handed to him by his far stronger team mate and LA insisted that he cease doing so. This photo says it all the TDF after that event occurred...
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Sep 1, 2012 - 12:58pm PT
So you are onboard with the belief that Hamilton, Landis, Andreu, and the other "witnesses" are all bought out, lying, and just plain talking shet about LA. That not one of em is telling the truth. That the only individual in the entire lot that is on the up and up is LA. That he never doped nor did he participate in the process of doing so for and with the entire Motorola/US Postal/Discovery/Radio Shack squads? That this entire deal has and always was a scheme to dethrone LA and greatest? That none of the "accusations" ever happened?

As others have correctly pointed out, the actual blood test results should take precedence over any sort of verbal testimony. Why? Because it constitutes actual physical evidence--and eye witness testimony is notoriously inaccurate, for various reasons. As someone else also pointed out, for a system to be fair that system must also work both ways--and the USADA kangaroo court does not do that. Nobody believes that positive blood tests for doping could be challenged by a number of teammates testifying that he didn't dope--either the blood tests are definitive, or they are not.

With respect to the USADA claims of actual blood test evidence, all I have read is that they asserted that some of LA's tests are "consistent with doping," whatever that is supposed to mean. As far as I know, they have not specified what samples are being referred to, i.e. during LA's TDF victory years or much later--and that specific language troubles me. For example, a person can have symptoms "consistent" with having a heart attack and not be having a heart attack.

Then it is safe to assume that you also believe that OJ was innocent all along as well. He was found innocent of his actions and thus he too never did any of what he was accused of.... Right?

At least you leave no doubt about where you're coming from. First you compare Lance Armstrong to the biggest thief and embezzler in US history (the convicted felon Bernie Madoff) and now you compare him to a cold blooded murderer. You can get off your high horse concerning truth, integrity and honesty now. Everyone can pretty clearly see that those things aren't really what you're interested in.

Curt

The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The negative behavior, intent and premise are the exact same, regardless the crime and who the perpetrator may be.

Millions felt the same exact way as do LA fans when OJ ("cold blooded murderer") was accused & arrested for what he did then found innocent of all charges by a jury of his peers.


OJ was found to be innocent... remember.

healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Sep 1, 2012 - 01:10pm PT
It is apparent that neither you Ken nor healyje, personally experience nor partook in these types of strict operations.

I inadvertently did something 'wrong' my first few days on the Providence as a result of being clueless about boats, having attended an aviation boot camp at NAS Memphis. As a result I spent the entirety of '72 on the line six-on/six-off in a very active 5"/38 gun mount (where my hearing went) and usually spent one of my off sixes doing helo ops or flying photo recons looking for SAM sites. So yeah, I do actually know what I'm talking about. I spent '73 on the Blue Ridge assembling the daily intelligence brief presentations for the floating heads of the seventh fleet / inter-services taskforce as a very informally 'adopted' personal assistant to the commander who was the floating head of naval intelligence for the fleet.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Sep 1, 2012 - 01:12pm PT
F....the (drug) police. Whoa, did I say that? lynnie
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Sep 1, 2012 - 01:15pm PT
OJ was found to be innocent... remember.

The judicial/legal system found Simpson not guilty, after a criminal trial. That system very rarely finds someone to be innocent, although a ruling of not guilty/acquittal, or a withdrawal of charges, may amount to that.

Simpson was found to be liable in a civil trial for damages for wrongful death, for the same events, and essentially bankrupted.

Simpson was found guilty in the court of public opinion.
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2012 - 01:17pm PT
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

So your CHIEF was entirely at fault for any misguidance you may have been given?

Where was the rest of you CofC... your Gun Mount PO, ALPO or LPO & Crew PO/LPO etc etc etc???


That system very rarely finds someone to be innocent, although a ruling of not guilty/acquittal, or a withdrawal of charges, may amount to that.

Of course that is absolutely not possible in this issue, right?

Simpson was found guilty in the court of public opinion.

And the complete opposite for LA regardless what those that truly know of him say.
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Sep 1, 2012 - 01:26pm PT
OJ was found to be innocent... remember.

Yes, but OJ actually had a fair trial in an impartial court. I didn't agree with the outcome, but I was satisfied with the process. In contrast, the Justice Department dropped their case against Lance Armstrong because there was insufficient evidence to proceed--the same reason French authorities dropped their earlier doping investigations of LA.

It is fairly clear to a number of people (me among them) that the so called "arbitration process" employed by the USADA is not inherently fair--and that those fighting USADA allegations have very little chance of prevailing because the standard of proof required for finding guilt is so low.

I don't know what the precise USADA arbitration standard for a finding of guilt is, but it is clearly less than the criminal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" and appears to be significantly less than even the normal civil standard of "preponderance of the evidence," particularly if the validity of actual blood test results can effectively be negated by mere witness testimony.

Curt

Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Sep 1, 2012 - 01:33pm PT
Clearly, Chief is more comfortable accepting without question unilateral, authority-based decisions than many Americans are.

What do we get for debating this? Is there a prize? Available seats on the USADA? Or are we just armchairing it, per usual?

I hope everybody is taking their BP meds and posting responsibly ;).
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
...the Justice Department dropped their case against Lance Armstrong because there was insufficient evidence to proceed ...French authorities earlier dropped their investigations of LA.

The French have never really "dropped" their investigation of LA. Just shelved it ready for bigger more punitive investigations to come along, USADA's.

If anyone really reads why the USJD investigation was dropped, they will find out that all potentially incriminating incidents occurred on foreign non-US soil. Thus their jurisdiction was totally invalid and any charges brought on would not fly in any US Court.

Most if not all of the USJD's evidence was handed over to USADA so that they could prosecute LA and company via their anti-doping procedures.

Clearly, Chief is more comfortable accepting without question unilateral, authority-based decisions than many Americans are

That was my chosen profession.
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 1, 2012 - 01:53pm PT
OJ was found to be innocent... remember.

Sheeit, maybe Paul Ryan (if he's not too tired from those sub 3-hour marathons) and Lance Armstrong should lynch OJ. Lets put some justice into the justice system.

Perhaps a self-lynching?

















Mary the Elephant, Lynched in Erwin, Tennessee, 13 September, 1916
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Sep 1, 2012 - 01:59pm PT
If anyone really reads why the USJD investigation was dropped, they will find out that all potentially incriminating incidents occurred on foreign non-US soil. Thus their jurisdiction was totally invalid and any charges brought on would not fly in any US Court.

That is completely false.

http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdaily/2012/02/doj-armstrong.html

Then again, you seem to like stuff that is just made up.

Curt
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 1, 2012 - 02:06pm PT
from the cite above

Birotte did not offer a reason for closing the probe

Did anybody else offer up reasons?
The Chief

climber
Climber from the Land Mongols under the Whites
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 1, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
CURT: Ah, via your ref, please show where it clearly states "WHY" the USDJ/FDA dropped their investigation.

You can't. They never officially stated why it was dropped.

The original USDJ/FDA investigation had to do with the conspiracy to traffic the enhancing drugs and paraphanelia used to administer them. Again, all these allegations occurred outside the US. Most assuredly the deciding Grand Jury looked at as a losing cause.

Common sense dictates.

The embarrassing absence of evidence that Armstrong had engaged in any proscribed activity within the United States, plus pressure from lawmakers demanding to know what the investigation had to do with the FDA's core mission, forced its monomaniacal chief investigator to drop it. But this was not good enough for some of Armstrong's antagonists. Travis Tygart, the CEO of the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), issued a Captain Ahab-like vow: "Our investigation… is continuing, and we look forward to obtaining the information developed during the federal investigation."

OPED, Spots Illustrated, Feb 10, 2012

locker

Gym climber
DUH!!!...
Sep 1, 2012 - 02:25pm PT


No need for a trial...

Why WASTE the time or money???...

Dude is obviously GUILTY...
Curt

Boulder climber
Gilbert, AZ
Sep 1, 2012 - 02:29pm PT
CURT: Ah, via your ref, please show where it clearly states "WHY" the USDJ/FDA dropped their investigation.

You can't. They never officially stated why it was dropped.

Correct. So you can't simply make some reason up--in spite of how much "common sense" you might think it makes.

Curt
zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Sep 1, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
Again, all these allegations occurred outside the US.

Did someone from the U.S. fly over and take notes?

If all of 'em occurred outside, why were they being investigated inside the U.S.?

Where is the list of allegers? Did they allege all the actions occurred outside the U.S.?
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Sep 1, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
Paul Ryan (if he's not too tired from those sub 3-hour marathons)

Hahahaha! Just caught that story. He calls it a rounding error? What a liar. Anybody who has run a marathon damn well knows what time they did or not did not do.

What they should do is drug test the lil liar!

edit: I will acknowledge, however, if you're that slow, you may not have a clue about marathon times.
WBraun

climber