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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jul 27, 2012 - 12:39pm PT
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One suggestion/request. My first portaledge experience were with a lightweight and flimsy one, about 20 years ago. Sorry but I dont remember the manufacturer, its not metolius, bd, fish - I just dont remember. Anyway this ledge kept hourglassing and spitting me out. I couldn't ever get it to stay in shape more than 5 minutes, then it would send me into the void. After a few of these experiences I gave up ever figuring out how to keep it in shape. I did zodiac and moonlight buttress with this thing, and spent the nights suspended in my harness, with legs in haul bag. So whatever you do please make sure it doesnt hourglass.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Jul 27, 2012 - 12:41pm PT
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Four thumbs up for Luke!
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NA_Kid
Big Wall climber
The Bear State
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Jul 27, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
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This is SICK! I will defiantly be looking at Runout Customs gear in the future! Horay for quality gear!
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OlympicMtnBoy
climber
Seattle
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Jul 27, 2012 - 01:51pm PT
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Yep, my old Gramicci single ledge only weighs 6.4 lbs and the fly is 1.6 lbs. Of course this might be the one referred to as hourglassing earlier although I've never had problems with it. Got to be a bit gentle, but one would think with material and technology improvements we ought to at least be able to at least beat that. Plus it packs down short and fits totally inside my haul bag if I want it to.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jul 27, 2012 - 02:08pm PT
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I have Lukes (Runout Custom) Prototype one off Titanium double that he made based on Middendorfs A5 design. Schweet and Light! The A5 fly fits it too. I like the direction this is heading. Portaledges are too darned heavy. Lukes a good guy too, like to see him do well. My buddy Adam was driving to Cali. from Colo and swung by to get something from Luke in Moab and Luke let him sleep in his yard.
Thanks for the heads up Chris.
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Mr. Rogers
climber
The Land of Make-Believe
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Jul 27, 2012 - 02:15pm PT
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Back in 2010 when my partner and I were getting off the Shield, we found these guys in the Manure Pile parking lot prepping for an attempt on the Nose.
Not too sure how they did. But their ledges were probably lighter than ours.
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10b4me
Ice climber
dingy room at the Happy boulders hotel
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Jul 27, 2012 - 02:47pm PT
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Mr. Rogers, those are the Camp Roll-a-Cot. They weigh about ten lbs each.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jul 27, 2012 - 02:48pm PT
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So if you gave someone a ledge for Christmas, would it be considered a portaledge in a pear tree?
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Roxy
Trad climber
CA Central Coast
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Jul 27, 2012 - 04:28pm PT
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go hammock, the original lightweight portaledge
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Jul 27, 2012 - 05:26pm PT
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I'll have to put it on the scale and check later Chris. Originally I just needed the fly as I was waiting from one from Russ at Fish. Luke put this up as a unit. Fly and ledge. The fly and stuff sack are the same weight as about everything else out there. The carry sack is a Runout Custom, not an A5, and is a heavy duty Fish Products style heavy elephant hide material so you can drag it up a wall outside your bag. In fact, it started out more minimal but was real tight to stuff the ledge back in. Luke had touched base with me after he'd sent it to see how things were and I mentioned the sack size. I wasn't thinking too much of it but Luke said: "hey, send that one back and I'll make you a bigger one". Wow! I hadn't even though of it till then. I did and so he did and sent the bigger one back. Stand up guy X2.
ps, I just loaned my hammock out to a buddy @2 days back to a guy going out walling as a team of 3 taking a double ledge already. Pika made this affair (I've never used it) that is suppose to clip off UNDERNEATH and onto any double ledge. Weighs @ a lb. This is suppose to be different than the wall hammocks of old like the Bat Hammock that sucked so bad. This Pika spreads open, and you don't spend all evening getting squeezed tight (they say). Hopefully they don't find ledges, it gets used and I get some feedback on it.
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Andy KP
climber
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Jul 31, 2012 - 12:20pm PT
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Bought a new BD ledge a while back and was blown away by how heavy it was. My old A5 Double (guess it was the 'alpine' one) must have weighed about half as much, and packed down to about half the size. Fly was OK, but again maybe overkill unless your in patagonia (old BD yellow fly was good, but had junk straps that broke off, and was too short and so snow/storm crap would blow into the ledge from below.
Been using a home made ledge made from an old A5 ledge (that got destroyed in the alps) that's only 3/4 length and with a dyneema grib bed (single tension buckle). Seems about a 3rd of the weight and super compact (fits inside a medium haul bag). For soloing missions you need something very light, and even at 3/4 it works fine when used with a full coverage ledge like the BD exped.
Also been using a cut down fish one night stand that sleeps two sitting (only better than hanging in a harness!), and want to use the Fish parts with some carbon fibre tubing soon.
And there's always the string hammok....
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Rob Morgan
Trad climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 31, 2012 - 01:07pm PT
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A shot of a Prototype single w/ mesh floor that i worked on in Architecture School.
The concept was called Sheer Mobility- A portable shelter for vertical environments.
Thought maybe relevant to the light-weight ledge discussion?
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John Mac
Trad climber
Littleton, CO
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Jul 31, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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Rob, That's a nice looking ledge. What are it's specs
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mh001
Mountain climber
Beijing, China
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Jul 31, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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Hi Chris,
The LuxuryLite UltraLite Cot is even lighter at 2lb 12oz/2lb. Have you compared it with the Mesh Cot used as a portaledge?
If dropping parts is a serious concern one could bring extra parts. Heck at this weigh you can afford to bring a backup Cot and still stay lighter than a usual portaledge.
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Nothing hourglassed like an original Grammicci. I sold mine to a museum.
I would ideally use 5.5 mil spectra which would add another 1/2 pound or so.
The problem with the ledge I see in the picture is that adjustable straps are essential cause it makes the difference concerning the angle of the rock the ledge is hanging beside.
Seems like it's tougher to make a light double ledge than something dinky for one person to crash in (but can you sit up and have dinner on it?)
Peace
karl
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Feb 21, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
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Fish double for Life.
On another note, I was in the Manure pile parking lot AFTER that team of spaniards finished the nose with those Blue Cots shown above!
Man, they were beat, snowstorm at the top, ran out of water, girl member was climbing in those Keen sandals...With tape! GANGSTER
So proud, I got em hammered on SNP, ICE COLD.
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Beautiful_Corn
Big Wall climber
Brooklyn Park, MD
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Feb 21, 2013 - 03:50pm PT
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Runout Customs is definitely my go-to for big wall stuff. Luke's customer service is top notch and his sewing work is fantastic. Nice looking ledge there.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Mar 18, 2015 - 02:31pm PT
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Great question. Would be great to have some super light ledges on market.
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Fish_Products
Big Wall climber
FishProducts.com
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Mar 18, 2015 - 04:06pm PT
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ChrisMac wrote: Now that carbon fiber is becoming cheaper... anyone working on replacing the aluminum tubes in portaledges with carbon fiber ones?
Tsk tsk... you should know better. Not all ledges use aluminum tubing:
http://fishproducts.com/catalog/portaledges.html
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 18, 2015 - 05:42pm PT
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5th Season = EPIC
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Bill Mc Kirgan
Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
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Mar 18, 2015 - 07:38pm PT
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I ask because the town I live in is known as, 'the city of 5 seasons', the 5th being 'time to enjoy'.
I would think any ledge should do that. Provide comfort and time to enjoy, but EPIC, now that's good too.
Sorry for the drift. Carry on
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Jones in LA
Mountain climber
Tarzana, California
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Mar 19, 2015 - 10:11am PT
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Here's yet another concept: the slackline tent. The promo video shows it hanging on a rock face, but the three-point suspension requirement will severely limit its wall-climbing suitability, me thinks.
Rich Jones
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Mar 19, 2015 - 11:32am PT
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That therma-a-rest cot looks like a cool fair-weather ledge.
It also looks like a foul-weather deathtrap.
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Flip Flop
climber
salad bowl, california
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Mar 19, 2015 - 08:25pm PT
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Chris, you can have my idea. Why not a carbon fiber rocket box. A haulable ledge. Openable with everything racked inside. Clamshell for 2 with a tent or closed solo for a 4 season hard shell bivy.
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Jones in LA
Mountain climber
Tarzana, California
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Mar 20, 2015 - 08:13am PT
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^^^ An idea centuries ahead of its time...
RIP Spock
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 20, 2015 - 08:32am PT
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Using carbon fiber in the ledge supports is probably real expensive?
The poles are always banging against the rock somewhere during an ascent.
Are these carbon fiber poles going to stand up to the abuse of big walling at the price they are going?
Where do people get all the money to buy these Rolls Royce expensive climbing components and gear?
Climbers must all be rich people these days with the nice cars they're driving and the gear they have .......?
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Jon H
Trad climber
Teaneck, NJ
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Mar 20, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
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CF ledge poles will probably be fairly durable. Think of the BD Cobra ice axes. Their in-house durability test consists of beating the axe over a curb until failure. I seem to recall hearing that it was a 2-person job because the first guy got tired and ran out of steam before he could finish beating the axe to death.
As far as where they're getting the money... climbing is no longer a fringe activity. Lots of engineers, software developers, etc are drawn to climbing. Hell, Google has climbing walls in many of their offices. Look at the parking lot of any climbing gym in a "wealthy" area. Way more Audis and Volvos than cragging wagons. Climbing is a full on yuppie sport now.
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skitch
climber
East of Heaven
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Mar 20, 2015 - 01:52pm PT
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My handlebar on my mtn bike is carbon fiber. . . So I don't think durability is an issue. Cost for a carbon handlebar is around double than for a lightweight aluminum bar.
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 20, 2015 - 02:10pm PT
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My handlebar on my mtn bike is carbon fiber.
But you're not dragging it up a wall by short fixing the ledge up to be used after each haul again.
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FTOR
Sport climber
CA
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Mar 20, 2015 - 02:23pm PT
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the couple of places my mtb frame has touched rock have resulted in chipping. carbon fiber is essentially plastic so you would have to protect its surface where it might come into contact with rock. not sure this would be the best choice for a ledge frame especially one that would come in at a significantly higher price.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Mar 30, 2015 - 09:48pm PT
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I missed the carbon fiber question earlier.
I used carbon fiber tubing for the portaledge I made in about 2003. The main issue I found was that the ends at the corners tended to blow out when the ledge was flagged above a haul bag. When the ledge hung up and wanted to twist into a pretzel, the aluminum corner fitting plugs had enough leverage to delaminate the end of the tubes. I solved this by epoxying 2 inches of stainless steel tubing both inside and outside of the tubes at the corners. Wrapping the ends with carbon tape and resin might have also worked, but I was too lazy to try that.
The FISH ledge still behaved better when flagged above a pig, because the cro-moly steel frame was so springy, it would pretzel up, and then spring right back. My carbon fiber frame was so stiff, it couldn't pretzel much at all.
Carbon fiber materials, especially those with minimal resin content, and maximum fiber content, are notoriously brittle. The carbon tubes I used were intentionally pretty thick, and thus heavier, than what might seem necessary. In a windy storm, thin-walled carbon fiber might get slammed against the rock and crack. Again, the cro-moly is very resiliant and almost impossible to permanently deform or crack.
As an aside, I once rode a windy storm out in a Metolious ledge with aluminum tubes, and one of them got dented and then it bent. Also, the aluminum ends were very easily damaged. Again, cro-moly seemed to be a better material.
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belayerslayer300
Trad climber
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Mar 31, 2015 - 03:58pm PT
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Quick question somewhat related. I have a runout customs ledge (Luke is the Best!) with fly but also really dig the BD deluxe cliff cabana ledge fly because of the windows and doors. Has anybody tried the BD cliff cabana fly on a runout customs ledge and know if it fits well?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Jul 27, 2015 - 07:43pm PT
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Having just recently been carrying a BD double ledge. I can tell you, that a super light double would be amazing.
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Fish_Products
Big Wall climber
FishProducts.com
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Jul 28, 2015 - 09:36am PT
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CMac: Yeah, as most climbing gear gets lighter and better, many portaledges have been getting heavier and heavier in the last decade. An extra ten pounds in some cases, which makes a big difference on the approach, climb, and descent.
Really hoping that all ledge manufacturers will get inspired by Runout Customs (and the original A5 Double Ledge) and start making ledges that are light and designed for Yosemite / Zion wall where most big wall ascents are made. The current super heavy ledges are still a good choice for your next trip to Baffin or if you are over 6 feet tall and want luxury.
Chris, they are not going to get inspired. Ledges weigh a ton now because most parties are hauling a sh#t show and the light and fast ethic is gone. Have you looked at El Cap lately?
Light will also equate to expensive. Ledges already cost too much, and the lighter they get the more they will cost.
Lightweight stuff is not going to be as durable, so when you flag your carbon fiber ledge and slog up Luring Fear, you'll end up with a a one wall ledge. Value and longevity are the name of the game in ledges.
Design a ledge for Yos and Zion? What are you talking about... those places feature the shortest approaches. Best ledge you could take for Yosemite is a sheet of plywood and a bivy sack, and probably still weighs less than a BD Double.
The reality is you can have a ledge at about any weight you want, if you are willing to pay. Most people are not going to pay, and for the three guys in the US that want a super light ledge and money is no object, there are people that can make that happen for you. If (using our FISH Ledge for comparison) trimming a pound and a half off your ledge is going to make the difference, more power to you. For most people, that pound or two will not mean squat, and they are certainly not going to pay for the weight savings.
From our Ledge FAQ:
"How much does your ledge weigh"
The single ledges weigh about 8.4lbs and 12.5lbs with the fly. Our Doubles weigh about 9.3lbs and 14.5 with the fly.
http://fishproducts.com/faqs/ledgefaq.html
Here is a comparison review Big Wall Kate wrote a while back including the specs for a few ledges:
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/2011/06/portaledge-review.html
See us on the web at:
http://www.FishProducts.com
http://fishproductsblog.blogspot.com/
http://www.facebook.com/FishBigWallGear
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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The coffin is the only acceptable name. I'm glad that we agree. I'm going to start duct taping an old rocket box. Wheels?
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deuce4
climber
Hobart, Australia
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Nov 12, 2016 - 03:39pm PT
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I am back to designing portaledges after a 20 year hiatus, and came across this thread. My new design is lighter, stronger and more rigid than the current commercial offerings, which, with the exception of the Fish steel ledge, are all derivations of my 1990's design.
More information on my new D4 ledge design will be forthcoming, but for the record, I did develop a 6 pound ledge (including lightweight fly) back in the 90's for Catherine Destivelle, which she used on her historic first ascent on the Dru, solo. A version of the same design was also featured in a design exhibition some years later: http://www.johnmiddendorf.net/portaledgeturin.html
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| Messages 1 - 49 of total 49 in this topic |
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fragile, not storm worthy
Let us know!