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Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 21, 2012 - 08:32pm PT
http://www.vpc.org/studies/myth.htm

with regard to women,
it seems that, in 1998, for 12 women who used a gun in self defense, 1209 were murdered with a hand gun...

crankster

Trad climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
Jul 21, 2012 - 08:33pm PT
Ed, the NRA bullies will never see the insanity of their argument, more guns = more safety. Especially when they have their own cable channel.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 21, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcdguse.html

seems to be a bit of a discrepancy the NCVS survey in 1993 estimated 108,000 defensive gun uses (DGUs) where as other stats estimated 1,500,000 DGUs.

Maybe crimpergril can weigh in here...

in this report: http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/fidc9397.pdf

in 1993
104,000 firearm injuries from all causes
64,100 nonfatal assaults, 18,253 homicides, 18,200 unintentional, 15,100 undertermined...


John M

climber
Jul 21, 2012 - 08:39pm PT
Ed, I'm not particularly pro gun, but that study seems to be full of holes.

Edit: your first post...

It doesn't state how many times women used a gun to keep from being attacked or murdered.

It doesn't state how many of those women who were murdered didn't' own a gun, and thus were not able to protect themselves.

thats just what I found after a quick scan. I could be wrong. your result may vary..

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 21, 2012 - 08:41pm PT
put your stats up John M...

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=53

"U.S. Rates
Across the population as a whole, neither homicide nor suicide is one of the 10 leading causes of death in the United States. However, for 15- to 24-year-olds, homicide is the second leading cause of death, and suicide is the third. The rankings are reversed for 25- to 34-year-olds. Considering these data by race, homicide is the leading cause of death for blacks ages 15 to 24 and 25 to 34. And it is the sixth leading cause of death for blacks at all ages."
John M

climber
Jul 21, 2012 - 08:43pm PT
I don't have any stats.. I was just looking at your first link and found some holes in it. I prefer that studies be as fair as possible.

I would rather have the facts be clear, then I can draw my own conclusions.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 21, 2012 - 08:49pm PT
"Firearms and Self-Harm
Historically, the number of successful suicides in the United States has far exceeded the number of homicides. In 1999, the number of suicides was nearly double the number of murders. In contrast, nonfatal injuries resulting from suicide attempts are much less common than injuries caused by violent assaults, regardless of weapons used. In this section, we describe the patterns and trends for death and nonlethal injuries resulting from self-inflicted, firearm-related harm."

"Firearms and Accidents
Firearm-related accidental deaths represent a small fraction of all firearm-related deaths, but unintentional injuries represent a sizable proportion of all nonfatal injuries resulting from firearms—behind only the number caused by violent assaults."

Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 21, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=102

"Case-control sampling schemes matching homicide victims to non-victims with similar characteristics have also been used to infer whether owning a firearm is a risk factor for homicide and the utility of firearms for self-defense (see Chapter 7 for a discussion of the case-control methodology). Kellermann et al. (1993) found that persons who had a firearm in the home were at a greater risk for homicide in their home than persons who did not have a firearm (adjusted odds ratio of 2.7). Cummings et al. (1997) found that persons who purchased a handgun were at greater risk for homicide than their counterparts who had no such history (adjusted odds ratio of 2.2)."

"The literature on right-to-carry laws summarized in this chapter has obtained conflicting estimates of their effects on crime. Estimation results have proven to be very sensitive to the precise specification used and time period examined. The initial model specification, when extended to new data, does not show evidence that passage of right-to-carry laws reduces crime. The estimated effects are highly sensitive to seemingly minor changes in the model specification and control variables. No link between right-to-carry laws and changes in crime is apparent in the raw data, even in the initial sample; it is only once numerous covariates are included that the negative results in the early data emerge. While the trend models show a reduction in the crime growth rate following the adoption of right-to-carry laws, these trend reductions occur long after law adoption, casting serious doubt on the proposition that the trend models estimated in the literature reflect effects of the law change. Finally, some of the point estimates are imprecise. Thus, the committee concludes that with the current evidence it is not possible to determine that there is a causal link between the passage of right-to-carry laws and crime rates."

Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Jul 21, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
and thousands of people a year die in slip and fall accidents...
Thousands die each year choking on something...
So the fact accidents happen to some people who own guns, is no surprise,it's like saying chain saw owners have accidents.

how many have been used in self-defense in a gun fight?

I haven't heard of any, which certainly seems to be evidence that they are not used in that manner.

So I'm confused Ed, obviously I'm not as smart as you, but do your stats support your "evidence" or no?
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 21, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
Well Shack, you might assume I have a point of view on this...
but I'm working it through too..

"Punishment enhancements for firearm-related crimes seem to be justified in sentencing by seriousness considerations, since firearms use in violent crimes increases the likelihood of the victim’s death (Cook and Nagin, 1979). Moreover, there is some evidence to suggest that there should be an incapacitation effect, since gun offenders usually persist in their choice of using a firearm in subsequent crimes (Cook and Nagin, 1979). However, the available research evidence on the deterrent effects of firearms sentencing enhancements on firearm-related crime is mixed, with city-level studies suggesting reductions in firearm-related homicides and possibly other types of firearm-related crime in urban settings (McDowall et al., 1992), as well as nationwide studies suggesting no crime prevention effects at the state level (Marvell and Moody, 1995)."

Shack

Big Wall climber
Reno NV
Jul 21, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
Fair enough Ed.


My favorite ones are the old lady's who pack heat..


Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Jul 21, 2012 - 09:15pm PT
Going to see the film tonight....heard it will be packed. (sorry)
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jul 21, 2012 - 09:17pm PT
I will warn the black bear population not to go tonight...
Jebus H Bomz

climber
Reno, Nuh VAAAA duh
Jul 21, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
Braawwrrr Raawwrrr Rawwwr Cragman Roarrr!!!!
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Jul 21, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
seems there is no good supporting evidence for one point-of-view or the other, at least that's the conclusion of the National Academy...

and they suggest better studies with better reporting...

who could argue with that?

Jon Beck

Trad climber
Oceanside
Jul 22, 2012 - 12:13am PT
A story just came across the internet about a new York cop who just shot his son, mistakenly thought he was an intruder. Killed him, wonder if that changes his view on handguns as protection
Silver

Gym climber
Jul 22, 2012 - 12:53am PT
Still wondering how many of you called for the ban on fertilizer and diesel after the OKC
blast?

Like I said on the other thread we need to deal with mental health here and find ways for people to make sure people struggling with mental health do do not get guns and or have the guns they own taken away until stability is restored.

So again I ask you to consider taking a stand and being more pro active in mental health issues in your community.



zBrown

Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
Jul 22, 2012 - 12:55am PT
All the arguments advanced in favor of citizens carrying around guns apply equally to flame throwers, yet in California it's almost impossible for me to get my FT license. It's enough to make you want to exercise your second amendment rights.

I wonder if Hitler would have taken away my right to burn baby burn?
beef supreme

climber
the west
Jul 22, 2012 - 01:01am PT
zBrown, why would you want a flamethrower in CA- isn't the cost of fuel just too prohibitive?
Ken M

Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
Jul 22, 2012 - 01:47am PT
Still wondering how many of you called for the ban on fertilizer and diesel after the OKC
blast?

Like I said on the other thread we need to deal with mental health here and find ways for people to make sure people struggling with mental health do do not get guns and or have the guns they own taken away until stability is restored.

So again I ask you to consider taking a stand and being more pro active in mental health issues in your community.

How many are killed by fert/diesel each year? I think few. I certainly don't feel endangered that someone is going to rob me with a fert/diesel bomb.

In contrast is the rather impressive number killed by guns.

I think there is a reasonable difference in priorities.
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