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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2012 - 08:52pm PT
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http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=10881&page=102
"Case-control sampling schemes matching homicide victims to non-victims with similar characteristics have also been used to infer whether owning a firearm is a risk factor for homicide and the utility of firearms for self-defense (see Chapter 7 for a discussion of the case-control methodology). Kellermann et al. (1993) found that persons who had a firearm in the home were at a greater risk for homicide in their home than persons who did not have a firearm (adjusted odds ratio of 2.7). Cummings et al. (1997) found that persons who purchased a handgun were at greater risk for homicide than their counterparts who had no such history (adjusted odds ratio of 2.2)."
"The literature on right-to-carry laws summarized in this chapter has obtained conflicting estimates of their effects on crime. Estimation results have proven to be very sensitive to the precise specification used and time period examined. The initial model specification, when extended to new data, does not show evidence that passage of right-to-carry laws reduces crime. The estimated effects are highly sensitive to seemingly minor changes in the model specification and control variables. No link between right-to-carry laws and changes in crime is apparent in the raw data, even in the initial sample; it is only once numerous covariates are included that the negative results in the early data emerge. While the trend models show a reduction in the crime growth rate following the adoption of right-to-carry laws, these trend reductions occur long after law adoption, casting serious doubt on the proposition that the trend models estimated in the literature reflect effects of the law change. Finally, some of the point estimates are imprecise. Thus, the committee concludes that with the current evidence it is not possible to determine that there is a causal link between the passage of right-to-carry laws and crime rates."
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jul 21, 2012 - 09:06pm PT
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and thousands of people a year die in slip and fall accidents...
Thousands die each year choking on something...
So the fact accidents happen to some people who own guns, is no surprise,it's like saying chain saw owners have accidents.
how many have been used in self-defense in a gun fight?
I haven't heard of any, which certainly seems to be evidence that they are not used in that manner.
So I'm confused Ed, obviously I'm not as smart as you, but do your stats support your "evidence" or no?
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2012 - 09:10pm PT
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Well Shack, you might assume I have a point of view on this...
but I'm working it through too..
"Punishment enhancements for firearm-related crimes seem to be justified in sentencing by seriousness considerations, since firearms use in violent crimes increases the likelihood of the victim’s death (Cook and Nagin, 1979). Moreover, there is some evidence to suggest that there should be an incapacitation effect, since gun offenders usually persist in their choice of using a firearm in subsequent crimes (Cook and Nagin, 1979). However, the available research evidence on the deterrent effects of firearms sentencing enhancements on firearm-related crime is mixed, with city-level studies suggesting reductions in firearm-related homicides and possibly other types of firearm-related crime in urban settings (McDowall et al., 1992), as well as nationwide studies suggesting no crime prevention effects at the state level (Marvell and Moody, 1995)."
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Jul 21, 2012 - 09:20pm PT
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seems there is no good supporting evidence for one point-of-view or the other, at least that's the conclusion of the National Academy...
and they suggest better studies with better reporting...
who could argue with that?
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Jul 22, 2012 - 12:13am PT
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A story just came across the internet about a new York cop who just shot his son, mistakenly thought he was an intruder. Killed him, wonder if that changes his view on handguns as protection
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jul 22, 2012 - 12:55am PT
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All the arguments advanced in favor of citizens carrying around guns apply equally to flame throwers, yet in California it's almost impossible for me to get my FT license. It's enough to make you want to exercise your second amendment rights.
I wonder if Hitler would have taken away my right to burn baby burn?
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beef supreme
climber
the west
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Jul 22, 2012 - 01:01am PT
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zBrown, why would you want a flamethrower in CA- isn't the cost of fuel just too prohibitive?
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 22, 2012 - 01:47am PT
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Still wondering how many of you called for the ban on fertilizer and diesel after the OKC
blast?
Like I said on the other thread we need to deal with mental health here and find ways for people to make sure people struggling with mental health do do not get guns and or have the guns they own taken away until stability is restored.
So again I ask you to consider taking a stand and being more pro active in mental health issues in your community.
How many are killed by fert/diesel each year? I think few. I certainly don't feel endangered that someone is going to rob me with a fert/diesel bomb.
In contrast is the rather impressive number killed by guns.
I think there is a reasonable difference in priorities.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 22, 2012 - 01:54am PT
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and thousands of people a year die in slip and fall accidents...
Thousands die each year choking on something...
So the fact accidents happen to some people who own guns, is no surprise,it's like saying chain saw owners have accidents.
You are obviously not a chain saw user. If you were, you would know that there have been dramatic changes in the design of such saws, making them far far safer to use.
For professional users, there are now required certification training, designed to cut down on accidents.
In contrast is the gun lobby, which wants NOTHING done that might improve safety, and fights it all.
What I can't understand it the violent opposition to meaningful purchase checks that would screen out felons and nuts.
I don't have a problem with citizens owning guns. I have a problem with them owning military equipment, that has only one purpose.
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zBrown
Ice climber
chingadero de chula vista
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Jul 22, 2012 - 01:54am PT
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bSupreme:
Costs be damned, happiness is a warm thrower. I'll ride a bike to lower my carbon footprint, may even install a spark-arrestor if forced.
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Shack
Big Wall climber
Reno NV
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Jul 22, 2012 - 02:28am PT
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You are obviously not a chain saw user. If you were, you would know that there have been dramatic changes in the design of such saws, making them far far safer to use.
For professional users, there are now required certification training, designed to cut down on accidents.
Wow, I'm obviously not up on my chainsaw current events...
So I guess there are no more chainsaw accident now? or just among the non-professionals?
Ken, what law would you propose that is going to keep guns out of the hands of felons and nutjobs?...cuz I'm pretty sure they won't obey it anyways.
BTW, it is already a felony to sell a gun to a felon or anyone who is prohibited from possessing a gun.
Have you ever even read any of the thousands of existing gun laws?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 22, 2012 - 09:39am PT
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Guns are an important part of our culture.....they are the only way male caucasians can deal with small penis syndrome.
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jstan
climber
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Jul 22, 2012 - 09:50am PT
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AURORA, Colo.—The semiautomatic assault rifle used by the gunman in a mass shooting at a midnight showing of the latest Batman movie jammed during the attack, a federal law enforcement official told The Associated Press, which forced the shooter to switch to another gun with less fire power.
The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity to in order to discuss the investigation, said the disabled weapon had a high-capacity ammunition magazine. Police have said that a 100-round drum magazine was recovered at the scene and that such a device would be able to fire 50 to 60 rounds a minute.
The argument that fewer people are killed by guns than by cars, can be turned another way.
Since there are so few shooters using semiautomatic weapons with large magazines our national system of justice will not be affected much if in every case where three officers see someone firing such a weapon with deadly threat, when apprehended, those officers are authorized to shoot the person on the spot with that same weapon.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Jul 22, 2012 - 09:53am PT
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Hey, anyone ever notice that we used to NOT have psycho's flip out and shoot everyone up?
30+ years ago or so, this type thing, school shooters, etc. NEVER happened.
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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Jul 22, 2012 - 09:55am PT
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Hey, Jim...Some deal with SPS by buying a convertible or a monster truck.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Jul 22, 2012 - 09:58am PT
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Come to think of it, some of us cope by rockclimbing.....heading out the door for a three week roadtrip....ciao!
Depends on your perspective Silver.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Jul 22, 2012 - 10:10am PT
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i35UQC1pks
-flamethrowers
My friend Bob trying to down an RC plane with a flamethrower. They use diesel because safety and clean up is easy. Napalm is sticky and dangerous.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E7_M4ejKJV0
-90mm gun
The guys in Globe (Bob, et al) reconditioned this gun (a war movie prop for 50 years) and then traded it for a mini gun. I was invited the first day they shot this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZQpR888QuU
-3" deck gun
I got to fire this!
Some guns are made by last great machining and engraving masters in this country. There are over and under shotguns that cost $200,000+ and are works of art.
Some actually enjoy hunting and eat the game they take.
Others have fun shooting full-auto NFA machine guns (11 states do not allow ownership). Having 10,000 rounds on hand for a belt fed is a 2 year supply at best. (understanding of 1934, 1968, and 1986 gun laws and the NFA/form 4 process is essential)
But then,
There are yahoos who go out to the national forest (or blm) and shoot tv's and computers and clean nothing up. They have been known here to shoot saguaros and range cattle.
And there are those who feel the work is crumbling and the only way to preserve their life is possessions of many guns, body armor, ammo, food, etc etc. These guys concealed carry all the time for the once in a lifetime opportunity to plink at a bad guy.
The penis argument is a bad analogy.
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