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jeff_m
Social climber
700' up
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I'm with the kid on this one. The key point is that many times you have absolutely little say in how a route climbs. The rock and the line dictate what happens. I am by no means a 5.12 climber, but I've put up a few 5.9 & 5.10 routes that warrant at least an R, if not an X. Was I drunk? A kook? An ego-maniac? (Well, that last one is debatable...) No. I was climbing the route for the first time and the line pretty much had control over where bolts/gear did or didn't go. How many times have you been climbing a trad route, completely in the flow and glance down only to see your last piece 20+' below your feet? Or having to push a section because you can't get a good stance? FAs aren't any different. Sometimes the gear is close, sometimes far apart. Maybe you have that luxury rap-bolting, but that wouldn't be a pure line now would it?
I'm not saying that there aren't 5.12 climbers who will put up easier routes and purposely make them R/X because of the drunk/kook/ego factor, but I do feel that a lot of it is out of our control.
[Edit to add that, yes, this is a troll thread, but still good to kick around now and again. And, as Todd said, talk to the FA peeps before you do anything, obviously.]
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The Magnet
climber
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You are missing the most important thing JD said.
The FA party does not own the route.
Routes are discovered, not invented. If you are inventing routes, you are sculpting routes, not what we all used to call climbing. Create routes indoors or at city parks. In the wild, act like a wild man. Let the natural world remain as natural as possible.
And do not ignore the finest lesson JB offered. His personal courage, his essential mannerism unto his death. Almost none of the "FA"ists kissing guidebook authors asses are worth the sweat off his balls.
Mostly, I think bolters are displaying the limits of their skill and courage to the public. And they show a very small stock.
I watched a guidebook author (and buddies) here come up to a well known crag and bolt hell out of routes that had been done for years as clean climbs. I was sickened.
I like the guy, but I have lost a lot of respect for him and his buddies.
Bolts are an admission of failure. On whatever route they are placed. Its also an admission that the FA party didn't show the class required to rap off and wait for a better ascent style. In that light, it becomes clear that for far too many, a "FA" is a boast, a brag, and a show of personal aggrandizement.
As climbers we would be far better off if bolts had never been used. Land managers would have far fewer bitchs.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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Good! We're talking about it. If that's the goal of a troll then I'm guilty.
I don't get why climbers who want to enjoy the sport in "relative" safety are always berated. Climbing is fun! If I have a wife and family and I want to climb without being selfish with my life by risking it then I don't think it's a problem.
And saying "you don't have to climb those routes" is lame. I can just say "you don't have to clip the bolts" and it's a stalemate.
Case and point: From a guide for San Luis Obispo county I have from college. See I and J right in the middle? I has a 40ft slab runout and J is a 5.10X because the FAist was crazy. He actually died climbing and now any bolt added to "his" route on public property is chopped. Sorry everyone forever, you don't get to climb the middle of this rock
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Thank you Jim Donini!!!!!
"It's JUST rock climbing. I have always had a problem when 5.12 climbers put up a 5.9 R/X route ( not R/X for them) and then for some strange reason want it to stay that way so that it prohibits the very 5.9 climbers the rating is appropriate for.
There are no absolutes; sometimes retro bolting is both appropriate and justified.
First ascenionists don't own a route, the local tradition should be more of a litmus test than a single party.
Some routes (Bachar/Yerian et al) should be left for the hardmen, others, perhaps established by hardmen but not hard, should be available for weekend warriors."
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jeff_m
Social climber
700' up
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The FA party does not own the route.
I watched a guidebook author (and buddies) here come up to a well known crag and bolt hell out of routes that had been done for years as clean climbs. I was sickened.
I think you got lost in your own point, but perhaps we're saying the same thing. Yes, I've had to place bolts on routes I've put up. It happens. I'm not talking about grid bolting an established area or retrobolting because you're uncomfortable with the runout. That's what bail 'biners and quicklinks are for.
If it makes you feel any better, last weekend we put up 9 ground-up 130'+ trad routes (no bolts). Had no idea if the cracks would run out, if we'd be able to get off the top (we eventually found ways) or how many boulders would tumble down on the belayers (only a couple). Will I be pissed to see bolts on the any of the routes in the future because Joe Sporty doesn't own a rack or doesn't like running things out? Yes.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Does not apply to my designer routes.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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I admit you can top rope on Bishops Peak (still not the same as leading), but there are infinite examples that are multi-pitch.
Go try it on the Bachar/Yerian, I'll scoop up your remains.
Funny note, I heard that Bachar/Yerian was controversial because they bolted off hooks. Then people got smart and now it's accepted as a good way to do routes ground up. Maybe people will continue to wise up and accept making routes well protected.
Maybe not, if old codgers tout "in my day" ethics and young impressionable people pick it up and pass it on without any thought.
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jeff_m
Social climber
700' up
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Holy hell! Just saw that you're another one of the throng from SLO bitching about Bishops. Isn't Mountain Project enough of a forum? What's up with you guys up there: retrobolt, chop, retrobolt, chop, move bolts, chop bolts, bitch, whine repeat---Diablo waste getting in the water supply? Geez, climb what's established and move to another area if you feel the need to add bolts to something.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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I did move. I'm not from there and I don't live there. Just an example I remember from when I went to college there.
Also everyone, I like trad climbing much more than anything else, but we're talking about times when good climbing meets no natural pro.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Have yet to hear an adequate response to "skip the bolt if you don't want to clip it"
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I wish someone would chop all of the poison oak on Bishop's Peak. It's out of control up there.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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I would re-plant all of the poison oak because the first people to walk there had to walk through poison oak, therefor everyone should. If you don't like PO, walk somewhere else ;)
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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I posted about Pebble In The Sky at Grouse on Donner yesterday.
I was told that a bolt was added at the crux a couple of years ago with the FA'ists permission.
While I like that the FA'ist was consulted, I feel that this essentially ruins the climb.
It's one committing move with ground fall potential and I backed off of it before I sent it.
It's not a hard route, just puckery.
I, for one, appreciate the committing nature of some routes and feel that they should be kept that way.
This is as much a sport of steely nerves as it is one of iron tendons. Let's try to keep it that way.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Retro bolting is OK?
Until you get caught, hanging on a rope, drilling a new fatty on an established route.
Think about it....
I do every time I hear a drill.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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lembert dome?,
oh shoot wrong thread.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
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I, for one, appreciate the committing nature of some routes and feel that they should be kept that way.
Then don't clip the bolt and pucker away!
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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"Then don't clip the bolt and pucker away!"
Exactly!!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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There's too many goddam bolts these days. Period.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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How many times have you been climbing a trad route, completely in the flow and glance down only to see your last piece 20+' below your feet
Try a 100 foot run for sport; of course, that depends on how steep the pitch actually is. Which reminds me, some people climb for reasons other than "sport." Can't really point to it as a matter of pride, but as a means to avoid a bad rep (and the sheer lazyness to place a bolt)...but, indeed my partners and I have waited until we could handle the FA style. Year or more, sometimes.
Then don't clip the bolt and pucker away Funny you should mention that. In the Pinns is a Machete Ridge base pitch - Cuesta Run. And a highly respected climber who certainly does not need slander sez: "This bolt wasn't here before!"
Then: CLIPitedodah!
But, indeed, to what extent are routes "owned," and by whom? Once upon a time, we backed off of Point Beyond, GPA, to Lucifer's, because the only pro we could see was a 1/4" spinner, about 50' up. Later, I looked at the Holy Guidebook, and realized that there were actually about 4 bolts on this reach; all destroyed by rockfall. A sucker runout, in other words, and not the intent of the FA.
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