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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Original Post - Jun 5, 2012 - 02:33am PT
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Just because one person climbs a piece of a rock and puts bad protection doesn't mean everyone for all of eternity has to climb that piece of rock the same way.
So a guy climbs a route, puts bolt #1 ten feet up and bolt #2 30 feet up, nobody is then allowed to climb right there safely forever!?
go ahead and retro bolt. if anyone doesn't like that, just don't clip the bolt.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 02:59am PT
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figured that would be the first response... just trying to spread logic
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 03:12am PT
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an "ethical" system that creates dangerous situations because it predicates that a private individual can forever make a public place dangerous is oxymoronic and illogical
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Boulder climber
bouldering
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Just buy a long enough static line, and toprope it, you stupid american pussy.
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mcreel
climber
Barcelona
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Could we get some opinions on the safe way to take bath salts?
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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"an "ethical" system that creates dangerous situations because it predicates that a private individual can forever make a public place dangerous is oxymoronic and illogical"
I would like to translate the above statement properly:
JoJo is a pussy...
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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who the hell is JOJO229 anyway?
where did you come up with this logic?
was that the time you backed off one of the many routes that you have no business being on? climbing is more than clipping bolts like you were in the gym.
once upon a time, when those routes you are talking about were done, there was this thing in climbing called:
integrity, respect, ethics and the minimalist approach to climbing. Royal Robbins preached this, JB preached this as did many many other. Also need to under stand that when these routes were done, sticky rubber was not around or the shoes were not that good, you drilled from the stance that you could drill from, and if you could not drill you either down climbed or went for it.
so in conclusion, if you can't or won't go for it, then stay in the gym.
kurt
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steelmnkey
climber
Vision man...ya gotta have vision...
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p.s. Thanks for the free hangars JoJo.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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It's JUST rock climbing. I have always had a problem when 5.12 climbers put up a 5.9 R/X route ( not R/X for them) and then for some strange reason want it to stay that way so that it prohibits the very 5.9 climbers the rating is appropriate for.
There are no absolutes; sometimes retro bolting is both appropriate and justified.
First ascenionists don't own a route, the local tradition should be more of a litmus test than a single party.
Some routes (Bachar/Yerian et al) should be left for the hardmen, others, perhaps established by hardmen but not hard, should be available for weekend warriors.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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It is just rock climbing. True, it may be justified, but to add to what Jim says: it is tradition to ask the first ascentionists if adding a bolt or whatever, is OK with them. Usually the reply is "hell yeah go for it, we ran out of bolts in the first pitch and then had to go for it. Moved to XXXX and never got around to making it the way we had wanted too". If you get a "there's nothing wrong with it the way it is, then the tradition is to leave it alone.
The alternative tradition is community consensus. This involves much more than asking a few bros over beers.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
the crowd MUST BE MOCKED...Mocked I tell you.
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my favorite kind of troll!!
oh, and btw, you're right if you get consent.
you're wrong otherwise. you don't have to climb every piece of rock. But if you want, just start top roping. We need more acceptance of top roping.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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I agree with Donini somewhat about some screwy routes......ask the FA party, and ask the local climbers. Remember, climbing routes are put up by people, and some people are boneheads out to get themselves and others killed or mamed.....some FAs are put up by drunks, kooks, twisted ego maniacs that have a chip on their shoulders and something twisted to prove the thier ex-girl friends, their abusive parents, their boss at work, or Rock and Ice magazine.....things are done in poor stay for poor reasons. Mistakes are made on first ascents, people run out of gear, bolts, pitons, time;...whatever............Bolts are put in the wrong spots, even in the minds of the FA party, but then the FA party doesn't go back and fix their mistakes. If a route is botched by the FA party, and then someone wants to fix it and has the FA partie's blessings...I say fix it up the way it was intended to be. Why leave a mistake or a screwup, when it needs to be fixed. Just because it was climbed poorly once, shouldn't mean that it has be be poorly climbed forever. But, if the FA party wants to leave their poorly done climb as is.....and they really feel strongly about it.....let them have their way for now.......after they are dead and gone and 30 years from now;...who knows what the climbing community will feel about such "controversies".....
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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figured that would be the first response... just trying to spread logic
Your logic already failed - there's nothing logical about climbing.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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go ahead and retro bolt. if anyone doesn't like that, just don't clip the bolt
Better yet- go to the sack store and buy a pair. If you don't like that, don't climb the route...
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"who the hell is JOJO229 anyway?"
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rectorsquid
climber
Lake Tahoe
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...nobody is then allowed to climb right there safely forever!?
Nobody ever climbs safely. Watching from a distance might be considered safe.
Staying home on the couch can be safe but rock climbing is not safe ever. That's why we, but probably not you, like it.
Dave
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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you can always tell a troll by the use of the exclamation mark in the title.
worth discussing anyway. donini puts it well. really, really hard climbers seem to lose perspective when they put up easier routes.
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MBrown
Big Wall climber
The Eastside.... UUUUHHHHHHH!
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screw bolts, all you need is a blue camalot...
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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i think Donini misses the point when it comes to routes put up before rap bolting,hang dogging and gym climbing...
for me it was all about carry on the ethic of the area and time, and also being able to stop and place bolts when i could and being able to have enough bolts to put up a line.
I agree that some bolts do get put in bad places and i have gone back and moved bolts accordingly.
But to blanket say 5.12 climbers are bolts scary 5.9 routes for fun or ego misses the mark. remember in the old days you did not pre inspect the route, hence the reason it's called on sight and you won't know how hard it is until it's done..
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Yes, I recognize this is a troll. However!!!
Whether we want to believe it or not, I do believe the opinion expressed in the OP is the future of our sport. Trad climbing will be a climbing style choice in the not so far future, similar to soloing or high balling a TR.
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jeff_m
Social climber
700' up
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I'm with the kid on this one. The key point is that many times you have absolutely little say in how a route climbs. The rock and the line dictate what happens. I am by no means a 5.12 climber, but I've put up a few 5.9 & 5.10 routes that warrant at least an R, if not an X. Was I drunk? A kook? An ego-maniac? (Well, that last one is debatable...) No. I was climbing the route for the first time and the line pretty much had control over where bolts/gear did or didn't go. How many times have you been climbing a trad route, completely in the flow and glance down only to see your last piece 20+' below your feet? Or having to push a section because you can't get a good stance? FAs aren't any different. Sometimes the gear is close, sometimes far apart. Maybe you have that luxury rap-bolting, but that wouldn't be a pure line now would it?
I'm not saying that there aren't 5.12 climbers who will put up easier routes and purposely make them R/X because of the drunk/kook/ego factor, but I do feel that a lot of it is out of our control.
[Edit to add that, yes, this is a troll thread, but still good to kick around now and again. And, as Todd said, talk to the FA peeps before you do anything, obviously.]
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The Magnet
climber
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You are missing the most important thing JD said.
The FA party does not own the route.
Routes are discovered, not invented. If you are inventing routes, you are sculpting routes, not what we all used to call climbing. Create routes indoors or at city parks. In the wild, act like a wild man. Let the natural world remain as natural as possible.
And do not ignore the finest lesson JB offered. His personal courage, his essential mannerism unto his death. Almost none of the "FA"ists kissing guidebook authors asses are worth the sweat off his balls.
Mostly, I think bolters are displaying the limits of their skill and courage to the public. And they show a very small stock.
I watched a guidebook author (and buddies) here come up to a well known crag and bolt hell out of routes that had been done for years as clean climbs. I was sickened.
I like the guy, but I have lost a lot of respect for him and his buddies.
Bolts are an admission of failure. On whatever route they are placed. Its also an admission that the FA party didn't show the class required to rap off and wait for a better ascent style. In that light, it becomes clear that for far too many, a "FA" is a boast, a brag, and a show of personal aggrandizement.
As climbers we would be far better off if bolts had never been used. Land managers would have far fewer bitchs.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 01:25pm PT
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Good! We're talking about it. If that's the goal of a troll then I'm guilty.
I don't get why climbers who want to enjoy the sport in "relative" safety are always berated. Climbing is fun! If I have a wife and family and I want to climb without being selfish with my life by risking it then I don't think it's a problem.
And saying "you don't have to climb those routes" is lame. I can just say "you don't have to clip the bolts" and it's a stalemate.
Case and point: From a guide for San Luis Obispo county I have from college. See I and J right in the middle? I has a 40ft slab runout and J is a 5.10X because the FAist was crazy. He actually died climbing and now any bolt added to "his" route on public property is chopped. Sorry everyone forever, you don't get to climb the middle of this rock
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Thank you Jim Donini!!!!!
"It's JUST rock climbing. I have always had a problem when 5.12 climbers put up a 5.9 R/X route ( not R/X for them) and then for some strange reason want it to stay that way so that it prohibits the very 5.9 climbers the rating is appropriate for.
There are no absolutes; sometimes retro bolting is both appropriate and justified.
First ascenionists don't own a route, the local tradition should be more of a litmus test than a single party.
Some routes (Bachar/Yerian et al) should be left for the hardmen, others, perhaps established by hardmen but not hard, should be available for weekend warriors."
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jeff_m
Social climber
700' up
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The FA party does not own the route.
I watched a guidebook author (and buddies) here come up to a well known crag and bolt hell out of routes that had been done for years as clean climbs. I was sickened.
I think you got lost in your own point, but perhaps we're saying the same thing. Yes, I've had to place bolts on routes I've put up. It happens. I'm not talking about grid bolting an established area or retrobolting because you're uncomfortable with the runout. That's what bail 'biners and quicklinks are for.
If it makes you feel any better, last weekend we put up 9 ground-up 130'+ trad routes (no bolts). Had no idea if the cracks would run out, if we'd be able to get off the top (we eventually found ways) or how many boulders would tumble down on the belayers (only a couple). Will I be pissed to see bolts on the any of the routes in the future because Joe Sporty doesn't own a rack or doesn't like running things out? Yes.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Does not apply to my designer routes.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
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I admit you can top rope on Bishops Peak (still not the same as leading), but there are infinite examples that are multi-pitch.
Go try it on the Bachar/Yerian, I'll scoop up your remains.
Funny note, I heard that Bachar/Yerian was controversial because they bolted off hooks. Then people got smart and now it's accepted as a good way to do routes ground up. Maybe people will continue to wise up and accept making routes well protected.
Maybe not, if old codgers tout "in my day" ethics and young impressionable people pick it up and pass it on without any thought.
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jeff_m
Social climber
700' up
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Holy hell! Just saw that you're another one of the throng from SLO bitching about Bishops. Isn't Mountain Project enough of a forum? What's up with you guys up there: retrobolt, chop, retrobolt, chop, move bolts, chop bolts, bitch, whine repeat---Diablo waste getting in the water supply? Geez, climb what's established and move to another area if you feel the need to add bolts to something.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 02:45pm PT
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I did move. I'm not from there and I don't live there. Just an example I remember from when I went to college there.
Also everyone, I like trad climbing much more than anything else, but we're talking about times when good climbing meets no natural pro.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Have yet to hear an adequate response to "skip the bolt if you don't want to clip it"
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I wish someone would chop all of the poison oak on Bishop's Peak. It's out of control up there.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 03:03pm PT
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I would re-plant all of the poison oak because the first people to walk there had to walk through poison oak, therefor everyone should. If you don't like PO, walk somewhere else ;)
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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I posted about Pebble In The Sky at Grouse on Donner yesterday.
I was told that a bolt was added at the crux a couple of years ago with the FA'ists permission.
While I like that the FA'ist was consulted, I feel that this essentially ruins the climb.
It's one committing move with ground fall potential and I backed off of it before I sent it.
It's not a hard route, just puckery.
I, for one, appreciate the committing nature of some routes and feel that they should be kept that way.
This is as much a sport of steely nerves as it is one of iron tendons. Let's try to keep it that way.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Retro bolting is OK?
Until you get caught, hanging on a rope, drilling a new fatty on an established route.
Think about it....
I do every time I hear a drill.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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lembert dome?,
oh shoot wrong thread.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 03:41pm PT
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I, for one, appreciate the committing nature of some routes and feel that they should be kept that way.
Then don't clip the bolt and pucker away!
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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"Then don't clip the bolt and pucker away!"
Exactly!!
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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There's too many goddam bolts these days. Period.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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How many times have you been climbing a trad route, completely in the flow and glance down only to see your last piece 20+' below your feet
Try a 100 foot run for sport; of course, that depends on how steep the pitch actually is. Which reminds me, some people climb for reasons other than "sport." Can't really point to it as a matter of pride, but as a means to avoid a bad rep (and the sheer lazyness to place a bolt)...but, indeed my partners and I have waited until we could handle the FA style. Year or more, sometimes.
Then don't clip the bolt and pucker away Funny you should mention that. In the Pinns is a Machete Ridge base pitch - Cuesta Run. And a highly respected climber who certainly does not need slander sez: "This bolt wasn't here before!"
Then: CLIPitedodah!
But, indeed, to what extent are routes "owned," and by whom? Once upon a time, we backed off of Point Beyond, GPA, to Lucifer's, because the only pro we could see was a 1/4" spinner, about 50' up. Later, I looked at the Holy Guidebook, and realized that there were actually about 4 bolts on this reach; all destroyed by rockfall. A sucker runout, in other words, and not the intent of the FA.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Help the steelworkers! No shortage of iron that I'm aware of........
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DataMind
Social climber
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I dream of a day when there exists a wall gridded with bolts as far as the eye can see
Where "established" routes are relics of old.
No longer will the climber conform to lines suggested by guidebook authors, but rather will make her own decisions
on which way to proceed.
No longer will the climber strain under the weight of so many aluminum wedges only to realize she's taken too many #3s, simply
count the bolts and rack the wire gates.
No longer will the climber suffer the needless micro-beta sprayed forth by the digital minions, "place a 0.4 here", "save your #4 for the anchors", etc. etc. etc.
No longer will we waste time agruing over who retrobolted John Q's death route
In the future any savy climber with a knack for zigging and zagging could get the FA of a line
And I'll call it... Choose Your Own Adventure Wall
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
80' from the Hankster
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There are examples of poorly equipped routes at most crags; some are
A)over-bolted
B)some are under-bolted
C)some are outright stupid.
So do you
add bolts,
remove bolts,
or just toprope the route and call the FAist a,
A)Retard
B)Hero
C)Idiot
??
Up to the climber I guess. Anyone can put up a routes, and anyone can add or remove bolts.
So some guy puts up a stupid route. You go add bolts, and someone else goes and chops them.
Now we have three idiots.
I say just toprope routes that are runnout.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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And I'll call it... Choose Your Own Adventure Wall
Actually, such a route, probably the first of many, has existed since 1980.
"Lost on Lembart" begins at the bottom of Werners, thence up and right across Headrush, Watercracks, Cucamony Honey, Truckin' Drive, Rawl Drive, Willy's Hand Jive, to top out on Lunar Leap.
No fooling!
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Climb cracks and wipe arse with poison oak.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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This post was such a troll it never should have been taken seriously in the first place.
There are some rare ocasions where the FA party did such a crap job on the FA that it needs fixing one way or annother. those are pretty rare thankfully. In general The FA party gets to dictate how the climb is done for life. Totally crazy f*#king rule but that is how it generaly is. I take that responsibility dead seriously and do the best that I can to make a route that is both exciteing and somwat reasonable. Not too many bad falls down low or over ledges but more exciteing up high where you hopefully won't hit anything.
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labrat
Trad climber
Nevada City, CA
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Nice Locker! (almost made me go all religious and on ya) Total agreement!
"Just DON'T clip the fukers!!!...
Being older and having done many, many, runnout relatively harder routes...
I have come to the conclusion that it is just fuking STUPID and SELFISH bolting in a way that would have one DECK (or sustain serious injury) should they fuk up...
It's just EGO fuking bullsh!t!!!..."
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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As far as I can tell almost all retrobolting and bolt chopping happens on the internet.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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It seems pretty simple, and comes down to communication. After 1.5 million posts on ST, we're getting that part dialed, arent' we?
With rare exceptions, thou shalt not add bolts to an existing route:
1. Without informing those who made the first ascent, if at all possible, or their peer group if not.
2. Contrary to the established ethos of an area and cliff - and the onus is on you to show that what you're doing is appropriate.
3. Before ensuring that all those who should reasonably know about it, or might have something useful to contribute to the discussion, are informed.
4. Contrary to the wishes of any land manager or climbers' access group.
Particularly where it would change the nature of the route in any way.
See Rick A's recent thread for tips. http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1837937/Flying-Circus-at-Tahquitz-add-bolts
And routes are as much created as discovered, and are often works of art. Even if some philistines don't appreciate them for what they are.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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So, all R/X rated routes should be retro bolted in the name of public safety?
The B/Y too?
Whatever happened to style and huge balls?
Should we chop the huge balls and mandate style to the lowest common demoninator?
What's left to aspire to? Strength only? I aspire to climb better with a feeling of calm under pressure.
Yeah, you can skip the bolt, but that's sidestepping the issue.
If a climb has a rep as runout, a chicken bolt dumbs it down even if you skip it.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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While I generally subscribe to the "First Ascent Principle" that Robbins articulated 40 years ago, I moderate that by adding that it depends on local understanding and consensus on use of the rock resource.
The idea that a poorly-protected climb is "unsafe" really has an unstated assumption, namely that it's unsafe if you lead it with the available protection. With a long enough rope, you can always top-rope it. If, for example, you don't want to lead (really solo) "Edging Skills or Hospital Bills" in the Meadows, nothing prevents you from top-roping it. You won't have the same experience as someone leading it the way Bacher did, but you still have the line to climb.
At a place like the Elvis Wall at Squarenail, we have easy-to-moderate sport climbs, all bolt-protected, each within about five feet of the next line. While I enjoy climbing there, I question whether we really needed to drill all those holes for a wall so susceptible to top-roping.
At this point in California climbing, can we really say that we have a shortage of routes? If you don't like climbing a relatively run-out Apron route like Coonyard, don't do it. There are plenty of other 5.9 slab climbs with better protection elsewhere. Sure, you don't get to climb 1,200 feet up it, but, to me, that doesn't justify adding bolts to that route. The Valley ethic (i.e. consensus of climbers) on Apron climbing was that you bolted by hand, on the lead, and this resulted in some long run-outs. That made the ability to lead low-angle slabs with long run-outs part of the skill set needed. When you lacked the skill set needed for a climb, you didn't change the rock. You either waited and got better, or simply climbed something else.
How is such an ethic illogical, indefensible, or irrational?
John
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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You misinterpret me, Locker.
It's not about ego, it's about style.
I have little ego, but I strive to have the steely nerves required to runout a route.
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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When the Dike's route was first done, they only put in one bolt, but a later party got permission to add maybe two more. If the later parties had added a larger number of bolts, it would have ruined the adventure of the route, but just two more was fine.
The principle is, use bolts very judiciously, even with the permission of the 1st ascenionists. When Bachar/Yerian was first done, I think Tom Higgins even critized them initially, for bolting off hooks, but later he hopefully changed his view, as putting in just a few widely spaced bolts made it possible for them to put up an incredible route. Bachar would never over bolt, or casually use hooks to make life easier, so that's why he could do it, with such a deep commitment to a high ethical standard.
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Have yet to hear an adequate response to "skip the bolt if you don't want to clip it"
I have yet to hear an adequate response to "Don't climb it if you don't have the skills."
How about this: I don't have a 4-wheel drive vehicle, but I want to go everywhere there are roads. All dirt roads should be paved. If you don't like them, don't drive on them.
In other words, how many bolts would be needed to ensure everybody found the routes they wanted to do were safe enough for them to try? Skipping bolts to prove some sort of boldness is plain stupid, nobody does that, yet everybody who climbs a route must deal with the unnecessary bolt(s).
Obviously it's not a black/white issue. There are certainly routes that could use added bolts to make them enjoyable. But that doesn't mean the sport has to be lowered to the lowest common denominator--which is what retro-bolting advocates.
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part-time communist
Mountain climber
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I, for one, appreciate the committing nature of some routes and feel that they should be kept that way.
Then don't clip the bolt and pucker away!
LOL
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Good post, k-man!
John
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Brandon. If your so brave or aspire to be that brave you should take up soloing. Soloing allows me to be as brave as I want without claiming an X rated ego route for life.
On the one hand I like climbs that scare the piss out of me yet on the other hand I have no use for moderate climbs put up by 5.13 climbers that no one ever climbs because they are X rated. Challange the heck out of me but don't be a completly stupid about it.
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Brandon-
climber
The Granite State.
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Tradman,
I stopped soloing after I decked into a snowdrift from thirty feet up a few years back.
I'm not an egotist, but I revere the bold nature of some climbs.
That feeling you get in the pit of your stomach when you know that you're going to run it out a ways is something I cherish.
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dfinnecy
Social climber
'stralia
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Locker sez,..
"It's JUST rock climbing. I have always had a problem when 5.12 climbers put up a 5.9 R/X route ( not R/X for them) and then for some strange reason want it to stay that way so that it prohibits the very 5.9 climbers the rating is appropriate for."...
I agree...
Seen many of those situations through the years and in most cases rarely if ever see anyone climbing those climbs...
So there they sit, no one climbing them...
Why is that a problem?
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The Alpine
Big Wall climber
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"You don't have to clip it" is total bullsh#t.
The bolt is still there. Like a god damn herpe on the snotty end of lockers hairy f*#kstick.
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The Call Of K2 Lou
climber
Straight outta Squampton
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mcreel, the safe way to take bath salts is as a suppository.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 07:33pm PT
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-we're talking about retro bolting where no natural pro exists, not bolting cracks.
-I agree that top roping is a good alternative to climbing R/X routes. Unfortunately I like long routes and don't carry around 500+ feet of rope.
-people have good points. less bolts=good, top roping=good alternative in some cases,
-leaving a rout with deck/death potential for eternity=really dumb egomaniacal BS
My main grief is that where I live most FAs were done by people not from around here. I've lived here forever and so has my family for generations. People happen to be born and climbed earlier and now I have to leave their dumb routes forever while they drive back to the bay or LA. L.A.M.E
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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leaving a rout with deck/death potential for eternity=really dumb egomaniacal BS Every route that I've ever climbed had death potential. Including the one with red tape at the gym. The ones with more DP than I was comfortable with, I didn't do.
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KabalaArch
Trad climber
Starlite, California
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"Edging Skills or Hospital Bills" in the Meadows, nothing prevents you from top-roping it. You won't have the same experience as someone leading it the way Bacher did, but you still have the line to climb.
Ahh...and this is where it began
Edging Skills FA Burk/Cantwell; when they were about 16. It followed the prominant dike trending up and left...they called it 5.11.After all, it was 1974 or so, and they were in EBs. "Skelletal Remains," or somesuch.
Now then, if you've studied early TM guidebook editions, you will see that John followed the dike to its halfway point, then proceeded directly upward. Then made a decision to erase the established route (now crossed by 3 Sport Routes - led each myself, clipping every bolt while I was at it.
So, John had cajones - he was once once on the cover of Life Magazine.
He is also Dead.
Or did you not think it was inevitable? The House always wins, and, if you disagree, play your hand, or watch TV.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 5, 2012 - 07:56pm PT
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How about this: I don't have a 4-wheel drive vehicle, but I want to go everywhere there are roads. All dirt roads should be paved. If you don't like them, don't drive on them.
Not talking about making a climb easier, just not intentionally more dangerous than it needs to be
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Not talking about making a climb easier, just not intentionally more dangerous than it needs to be
the wiggle room in that statement means that others can take your pure intent and defile it with their human actions.
"than it needs to be" is not quantifiable due to changes in people's ability, perception, population, etc.
That it can change in one direction means it can change back at a later date, thus the decision should be made that causes the least amount of damage once common consensus changes with whatever the future brings.
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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" don't clip the bolt" How about this for an analogy, You say your going to do a "hammerless" ascent of El Cap but you throw a hammer in the bottom of the bag. It's not the same level of commitment. You have given yourself a out if things get too dicey, same as adding the bolt . It is there , so you have your saftey net, not the same climb or level of commitment. It's like Pipeline, if it's above your skill level DON'T PADDEL OUT KOOK! :) Cheers ( not all routes or surf spots are for everyone)
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throwpie
Trad climber
Berkeley
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I don't climb anymore, but when I did, we practiced this old-timey thing called "clean climbing". I did it because thats the way you did it. I assumed that terror was just part of the game.
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Locker you are right about Ego, but I think it's about knowing your limits. I think it's Ego if you add a bolt to a climb that's above your skill or level of commitment, just so you can do the route. that's why after 30 plus years of surf and climbing you won't see me out at pipe or on the Bacher/Yerian." A man has got to know his limitations."
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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These threads should last about 20 or 30 posts maximum. All is said by then, what follows is thread drift and personal crap.
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slodog
Trad climber
ontario canada
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this is the dumbest post i've seen on super topo-climb in the gym if you dont like the crags-you like long routes and a 500 foot rope for toproping is not cool so you'll take a drill to bring the rock down to your level??find another hobby champ your obviously a tad ....soft for rock climbing
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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I think the fa has the word simply because there are many styles of climbing from the ego run-out to the well protected sport climb and everything in between and the fa's ascent represents that style. There is something for everyone out there. You don't have to climb the ego climb if it's not your bag any more then you have to climb the sport route. You can also make some of your own. There's miles of rock out there and plenty of climbers of all stripes still putting up quality routes of all stripes. All types should be in there original state for all types to climb and enjoy. Because why do you pick a climb anyway?
I personally love the run-out climbs. I haven't seen that type of climbing progress much beyond what those climbers accomplished for that given space and time. I love the fact that there is a human being who put up a climb called Burning Down the House that no-one else has climbed since. Doesn't matter what style it was climbed in...It's there waiting. I will personally chop any bolt I find not approved by any FA member on ANY kind of climb. If the FA party agreed to changes to their statement fine. You don't have to clip it. But don't f-ck it up for some-one else. There has to be some rules or it will all go to hell and end up the color of mud....
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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These threads should last about 20 or 30 posts maximum. All is said by then, what follows is thread drift and personal crap.
well put by donini again. i'm getting used to this guy.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Just posting here is personal crap and ego, myself included...Donini gets to post his, I get to post mine, and the ones that post saying they don't care and to move on, I say bullsh-t.....
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Hey Donini, it's a discussion, if your over it " don't click the bolt" ....heh,heh,heh
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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There's too many goddam bolts already.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Too many bolts, then quit putting up all those granite slab routes in Cali. Stick to natural lines. I've put in 4 bolts, all hand drilled, in 46 years of climbing and a lot of first ascents- rock and alpine. I keep finding new routes where the rock yields protection sans bolts and I'm so old I need reading glasses.
Do natural lines and retro bolting is never an issue.
edit: Something to think about. A climb with bolts means where the protection is placed is a somewhat arbitrary decision of the first ascent party. On a natural line the architecture of the rock creates the protection opportunities. If bolts are arbitrary, retro bolting is yet another arbitrary decision which has nothing to do with the NATURAL ARCHITECTURE of the rock.
You are the judge rather than what you are given by nature.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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"Do natural lines and retro bolting is never an issue."
Sounds good. I'm for it.
Or grow a sac.
Seems like it's a little late for this, though, donchathink? Those goddam bolts are everywhere, and they ain't goin' away.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Well put, Kevin, but I think you missed one possibility: Doing a FA and not telling anoyone. I suspect plenty of us have been guilty of that at one time or another.
John
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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All I know is California needs another run out 5.9 slab like I need a hole in my head.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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Ha! Please feel free to use it, If I bolt up a slab it will be to the OP's liking.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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I'd be honored Warbler.
The Bishop's Peak death routes are pretty easy to TR, I've climbed some of them and I sure as hell didn't do it on lead.
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2012 - 12:40am PT
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@toad: I don't live on the central coast, I live in the central sierra
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Communism, CAPITALISM, and Bolting ethics sometimes exist as pure theory but their practice is always different, and usually not living up to the theory.
Reality shows us that Community consensus (another illusion actually) rules. This means if there is someone in the community who feels strong enough about a retro-bolt to chop it, then the bolts get chopped. The community might also diss you without chopping your retro-bolt if they are lazy, tolerant, or have too much weed.
Sometimes there's a guy who needs hangers who finds religion suddenly.
Consulting the FA party is laudable, but sometimes the bolt gets chopped anyway. Steck approved of the now-gone bolt on the crux of East Butt of El Cap.
and yet the retro-bolt on one of the easiest free pitches on the Nose has remained for years?!! Sometime convenience and/or obscurity dictate whether a retro-bolt is left or not. You might get away with adding bolts to some apron obscurity but some well known classic? never! Unless it's a really long approach, or way up some clean wall.
Who the retro-bolter is matters too. Out of towners get dissed even if they don't retro-bolt. Sometimes a guy can't even retro his own route without chopping but some can and have.
Usually there's a drill Sargent who appoints himself to guard an area so it's the luck of the draw whether Sarge hears of the offense and cares to do something about it.
The community changes over the years so the way we keep history and the values/demography/whatever of future generations are going to do what they will, erase all bolts or retro super trad areas. Like it or not, A lot has changed already.
The sure sign of an old codger is dissing the current generation of climbers as pussies, even as they are soloing Half Dome and the West Face of El Cap
Not endorsing anything here, just sayin how it is.
Peace
Karl
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2012 - 03:02am PT
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Agree. Show me a perceived community consensus and I'll show you a loud and judgmental minority
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
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O.K. JoJo, show me a majority in favor of retro bolting a route. I get the illogic of the FAist forever dictating the future of a route, and I now understand having kids and not wanting to get killed climbing-- I really do. But it's just how this game is played.
Me, I think the problem is that folks that are too worried about getting killed are not willing to put in the work to climb well protected routes at a reasonable grade. There are tons of trad routes in the 5.9-5.10 range that are fun and well protected. Do the work and have fun.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Karl, I agree that the consensus will change with the times and already has (and that the "consensus" may just be theory). And that this blog, thread only represents a small minority of the climbing "community" as a whole. I appreciate all forms of climbing and try not to judge anyone in there endeavor, but wouldn't it be a shame if those diverse styles and histories disappear into a homogeneous jello, devoid of difference, with rounded edges and gift wrapped for the masses?
It's nice to take the zen approach but I think we all have our pets. What if your beloved Galactic Hitchhiker was altered in any way, made harder or easier or whatever? In other words, how would you feel if the climb was altered?
Some might say that growing older (codger or whatever) makes us wiser but maybe we just get tired of caring as we get older. Who knows....but as long as people exercise the human trait of caring about anything, there will be debate whether it concerns politics, the arts or whatever. Even climbing.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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What if your beloved Galactic Hitchhiker was altered in any way, made harder or easier or whatever? In other words, how would you feel if the climb was altered?
Funny you should use that example. I did the second and some subsequent ascents of Hitchhiker but the guys who put it up did so in style that would have been very controversial back in the day. The worked from the top down some (I heard) and from the bottom up. The result is a route that's very well protected up higher but has some spicy sections in the middle that the FA party had intended to bolt tighter but never got around to it.
I was in touch with them and they told me their intents to add bolts and that I could too add to bolts on the Olympic Wall (middle of Hitchhiker) it's silly to have such a well bolted line 90% of the way and but then have a tricky 5.10 mantle with a dangerous fall planted in the middle of it.
I'd have added bolts for sure if I wasn't lazy and in a hurry to finish dozens of pitches in a day. That's the one climb, if I ever retro-bolt anything in my life, it will be the mantle on Galactic Hitchhiker. I think the FA party spent a lot of time on the route and didn't feel like going back for more bolting or even a one day ascent.
But that's just a story. I wasn't saying how anything "SHOULD" be, just how it is
I'm against war, racism and all kinds of things that I can still talk about in practical terms
Peace
karl
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Tony Bird
climber
Northridge, CA
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donini's remark about the natural line of rock is well taken--if you live in places where there's lots of good rock. close to los angeles, there wouldn't be much climbing going on without bolting.
the case in point is williamson rock. it was climbed early by sierra club rock climbers, even before they started going out to tahquitz. williamson might have 3 or 4 long lines where you could put pitons or chocks into a crack--a very crack-poor species of granite. but when bolting came along, williamson was reborn as a climbing venue--something like 300 routes--and it quickly became the favored close-in crag for los angeles.
i've never sunk a bolt myself and only have a handful of serious FAs, none of which will give me guidebook immortality. for some reason, i just haven't felt the need for it--there has always been plenty of challenge for me in established climbing.
i was exploring a small, for some reason ignored, canyon on the east side with my daughter a few years back. i had driven past it many times and got curious about the rock. after a bit of an approach which included a lively stream crossing, i picked the most obvious line and led up a half pitch. sure enough, felt like it was going to be a 5.8 mantle with no place for pro. i just backed off the thing. i'll probably never go back and i doubt if anyone else will in my lifetime. if i should happen to move to the neighborhood, i'll know exactly where to hand-drill a bolt. if that canyon were within an hour of los angeles, it would have lines out the mouth every weekend.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Agreed Karl. Is bolted vs trad vs FA ethics really large enough to get worried about nowadays considering the other MAJOR issues of far more pressing concerns that are out there? Regardless, the current argument really comes down to "Who was born 1st"... Really? Because they were born earlier they get to dictate how all clean rock faces located in close proximity to City Centers are climbed and are forever their domain and prerogative?
IMO many of the older climbs developed in the run it out style of the 60s-70s are simply a product of their time: Availability (or lack of) of technology (cordless rotary hammer drills), availability of bolting gear, etc.. Do you think those same routes would be developed in the style they were if cordless rotary hammer drills plus 3/8' - 1/2" bolts were readily and inexpensively available in the 60-70s? I bet the vast majority of routes would all be fairly well-bolted if the technology and economical means of access to them where in place for sport climbing in the 60-70s.
I consider myself probably on the young side of the fringe of the generation of climbers who give a sh#t about these issues. My kids don't give a sh#t about them and they all know about the ethics of climbing's history, and I know for a fact their friends won't. All they know is the gym and sport routes because once their parents got older, that's all they climb as well.
I will just come flat out and say it, I predict that ALL climbs will get retrobolted at some point with bolts. Even existing trad classics. Placing natural protection will be an option, but they will be bolted due to continual concerns about liability and access and the slow drift away from the arbitrary ethics of a time that dictated arbitrary rules.
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rick d
climber
ol pueblo, az
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Donini et al
--now a real comment.
I was never a 5.12 climber but was damn close to that in 1986. I decked soloing (eighty feet) and things changed when my legs started working again 10 months later. I moved away from harder to more runout climbing and more and more hard aid. I have drilled more than 4 bolts in 32 years of climbing (less than 250), but I can count on fingers and toes how many bolts I have placed with a Bosch (in rock). I have wanted to push myself and my mind control to see how far I can go. So I guess I am a 5.12 climber in a 5.9/5.10 climbers body doing 5.9X/5.10R routes then right?
jojo, my right ankle has 10 degrees of movement and my left leg looks like a shark bite. I still hike 6 miles to routes and put bolts in on stance HAND drilled. Like Donini has suggested, I seek out clean lines that require removable pro and try my best to place as few bolts as needed. I own a full rack and know how to place every piece I carry.
We have had masses of gym climbers flooding the areas for close to 20 years. No wants to get scared. They only want to climb every piece of rock they see and who cares if the idiot FA is dead, or some lost legend (grossman), or more commonly someone and FA who got old and started putting up sport routes with a Bosch. They want to climb that route NOW and string a farking slack line and show the world how cool their vimeo video is (and get redbull and citibank sponsored).
I now enjoy finding myself alone or with good company in some place you will never hear of drinking natty light maybe getting up a route or trying damn hard to. Sometimes we only bag an approach but that still gets me out. I only wish DDC would give up that damn drill........
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Greg Barnes
climber
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I will just come flat out and say it, I predict that ALL climbs will get retrobolted at some point with bolts. Even existing trad classics. More likely that ALL climbers will be banned from public land at some point.
The climbing community and our debates don't happen in a vacuum.
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jstan
climber
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there wouldn't be much climbing going on without bolting.
the case in point is williamson rock. it was climbed early by sierra club rock climbers, even before they started going out to tahquitz. williamson might have 3 or 4 long lines where you could put pitons or chocks into a crack--a very crack-poor species of granite. but when bolting came along, williamson was reborn as a climbing venue--something like 300 routes--and it quickly became the favored close-in crag for los angeles.
WILLIAMSON ROCK IS CLOSED TO CLIMBING
The US Forest Service has closed Williamson to all climbing due to a ruling by the US Fish and Wildlife Service that the area is critical habitat for the Yellow Legged Mountain Frog, an endangered species. The Friends of Williamson Rock has incorporated as a non-profit organization under IRS Code Section 501(c) to regain climbing access to Williamson. The organization needs your help. To find out more, go to our website: http://williamsonrock.org
Williamson Rock offers over 300 routes in the mountains above Los Angeles with no dirt roads to drive and minimal hiking to access. Mostly sport climbing, this area is hugely popular which means this area gets crowded on the weekends, although typically the further uphill one hikes the fewer the crowds and sense of serenity. The majority of routes are well-protected and thought-out with convenient anchors and clipping stances and are played out on steep, featured granite. Located at an elevation of 6700' the season runs from March through October depending upon weather and road conditions. No facilities exist at the crag so pack your trash out and walk away from the stream and routes to bury your waste.
There is no connection of course. That would be silly, we are all agreed.
Carry on.
Edit:
Kevin:
I think you may not be far from correct. But there is a critical element here we are ignoring. Around 1990 I went to a public meeting the Supervisor of JTNP held regarding wilderness bolting. He said something along the lines, ' Our job is to manage JTNP. We will manage the Park.'
Climbers all too often feel it is their entitlement to use public lands entirely without management by those responsible for these lands.
This attitude invites, consequences. Unnecessarily. Look at the areas to which climbers are now denied access. In these cases was not this attitude strongly evidenced?
BITD when I visited Eldorado near Boulder it struck me as a relatively small area supporting a very large number of climbers. Climbers there adopted a cooperative attitude with regards to that area and with regards to Boulder Open Space. What do you think the status of those areas would be now had climbers adopted a confrontational attitude?
It seems to be a law that humans actively bring upon themselves the things they most fear. We are doing this here.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Bolting is about the game of climbing and not the environment. The environmental impacts of climbing are mostly in the approach and descent from the climb and perhaps the camping and driving we do. Climbers are going to climb although having reasonably protected routes might draw them to certain places in larger numbers.
but let's not toss around the "environment" reason too quickly if we're not ready to stand up for minimizing erosion, making cairns to mark approach and descents to avoid many use trails, and the the other things that might actually reduce our impact on the crag ecosystem
Peace
Karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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http://mountainproject.com/v/die-wilden-kletterkerle/107223951
Would depend on the area but that route doesn't offend me so much. I would guess it gives beginners a place to practice their belay, lead, and rope stuff without clogging a route more experienced beginners want to do
There's a place for everybody
PEace
Karl
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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To Higgins, Kamps, Robbins, TM, Worrall, Settlemeyer, Caunt, Long, Ament, McDivett, Bachar, Smith, Bard, Clevenger, and too many more to name..I guess facts are fact and times they are a changin' and war and racism are more important then our little climbing world. But I'm going to miss those climbs you all put up. I going to miss the solitude that they grant and the way they engage my mind....There weren't many of you back then wandering around and exploring..I feel lucky to have been able to experience those things...and hope to get a few more in before the retro era begins..and although I appreciate anyone's right to climb as they see fit, Galactic Hitchhiker isn't on my list......
Syonara, Tony Lewis
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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^^^ then climbing will be like golf......... you can have it
I find this an incomplete analogy. With golf, most courses are such that anyone can play them, and the handicap system insures that those who want to play a game can be competitive (to a certain extent) even with golfers of vastly different abilities. Perhaps this is somewhat like an area filled with sport-bolted routes.
The analogy stops there, though. Golf is all about self-restraint and self-challenge (in my case, the challenge of controlling my urge to melt down my clubs in my rage at my poor shots). You don't unilaterally have the right to change the course just because you have trouble reaching a green in regulation. You don't chop down a tree just because it blocks your shot.
The problem with adding bolts to an established route is that it not only adds a permanent change to the rock, it changes the lead. Yes, you can choose to bypass the "offending" bolts, but that adds significantly to the mental problems, because now you have to fight yielding to a temptation that wasn't there originally.
Dealing with poor or nonexistent protection had always been part of the leading game before the advent of sport climbing. There are still plenty of places to put up new sport routes. I simply do not see the need for turning a trad route into a sport route -- or vice versa. If the route was originally a sport route, in an area where sport routes are part of the accepted ethic, leave the route alone (other than replacing worn or inadequate bolts). Conversely, if it was originally a trad route, leave it that way, please.
John
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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Just to make sure I am not seen as promoting bolting trad routes, I do not support that stance. I just feel like given the direction things are going that it will become the reality eventually due to liability and safety concerns.
We, the climbing community, have created the "bolts are bad" view that many land managers have by people running to them and fear mongering / chicken litte'ing the issue mostly due to personal conflicts. In reality, bolted climbs are no more impactful than other styles of climbing, and in many cases, actually are less impactful. Less removal of vegetation and certainly in the area of "anchors" are clearly the preferred approach at many levels (safety, loss of vegetation, eliminating walk off paths, etc..)
As for retrobolting, once the steel is in the wall, the game is less about the rock and more about the FA'ist. In a world with limited rock, and much prime real estate already developed, I think it is kind of crazy to impose a view of how it should be climbed forever based upon a snap shot in time.
The reality is climbing is subject to social pressures (like concern over safety and liability), popular demand, changes in ethics, logic, and technology. Retrobolting will occur, it is a matter of when, not if. The only other potential I see out there is technology advancing far enough that bolting is no longer required to lead climb routes.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Good points, Roughster. Ironically, perhaps, your last point about technology has already taken place on the Apron. As someone who started climbing in Zillertals, I can assure you that doing one of the 1960's era Apron climbs in modern climbing shoes is a much easier matter from doing it in 1960's footwear. What seemed like terrifying leads then seem much more reasonable to me now, even though I was physically and technically much stronger then.
John
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 6, 2012 - 01:50pm PT
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You guys have good, reasonable thoughts on the issue.
But just to make sure we're on the same page: I'm not really a sport climber and I don't think bolting where there is natural pro makes sense (but I wouldn't pull my hair out over it). I own 6 draws but mostly a pile of trad gear.
I just think where there is no option but to bolt or run it out, the bolts may as well be placed reasonably. Not "every 3 feet so you can clip the next without leaving the first," that's a slippery slope fallacy. It just makes sense to avoid decking, 40 foot slab rolls, a pendulum into a dihedral for the follower, etc...
When we place trad gear, those are the obvious things a smart climber looks for and tries to avoid. Seems like bolters should use the same good climbing technique.
If the FA only placed one piece of gear in a 50 foot splitter, do we all have to do that? Nope, we have a choice on how to protect it.
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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John, my analogy between golf and climbing was about the risk involved, not the physical asspect of the course or route. It's about eliminating risk/ danger on routes, which is a very crutial part of the allure of climbing for me. It's the risk/reward of climbing (also big wave surf) which draws me to these activities. The real threat of injury/death is what seperates these activities from golf or tennis. The magic of being scared, over coming your fears, and accomplishing something that you were not sure you could do is what it is about for me. For some it may be about the gymnastic asspect of climbing done in a safe environment and thats cool. If that's the case then put up your own routes,TR, climb in a gym or stick to exsisting well protected climbs. Why put your mark on someone's work? Would you re-write Charles Dickens to make it easier to read? Cheers, Paul Linaweaver
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Don't diss Golf risk. 3000 people die golfing every year! Far more than climbing!
Retro-bolting is like using the cart instead of walking (sorta)
http://www.videojug.com/interview/death-by-leisure-activities
"How likely am I to die on the golf course?
Most people wouldn't think of golf as a dangerous sport, but in fact over 3000 people a year die on the golf course by playing the game. Most of these occur to people over 65 years old. The most deadly for this age group, and for many age groups, is the 3rd and the 18th hole. The reason for this is by the time they get to the third hole, they're now experiencing some hidden health problem that they didn't realize, or they pushed themselves all the way to the end at the 18 hole and have a heart attack or some other fatal mishap right at the end. So the other interesting thing is that over six people die a year from lightning strikes by watching tournaments or falling limbs. These things can be prevented if you keep one eye on the game and one eye on what's going on around you."
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Kudos to Warbler's post, which I suggest he repost in it's own thread. We should all be observing that as the real environmental (and Access) issue.
Find the best path to an FA and use the same path each time, don't cut the corners on the way back down. The approach and descent are part of what an FA team is creating. Own it
Peace
Karl
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Karl, how many folks golf in the US? How many climb? It would be fun to know the" relative" risk compared between these activties. Cheers
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Great post, Kevin, and it shows a great person behind the ideas. Your explicit thought of how what you do affects those who come later contrasts rather starkly with most of what I read, and, sad to say, much of what I see. Thanks much.
Now that I understand East Side Underground's meaning, I agree with him. Golf might lead to death or serious injury, but it doesn't involve conquering the same fears as that involved in climbing. I, too, was attracted to climbing not only for its physical challenges, but also, if not primarily, for the mental ones.
Truth be told, though, there is a certain amount of fear one must overcome to play golf for money. Sinking a six-foot putt on the 18th when there's a substantial bet riding on it leads to its own, if different, sort of fright. Mostly, though, my golfing involves a large amount of controlling anger.
John
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FRUMY
Trad climber
SHERMAN OAKS,CA
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Where is Weld_it? He would know what to do --- F'n Grid bolt the f-c- out of everything.
That way the weak of mind can't complain.
There are sooooooo many GREAT climbs that don't have any bolts.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Wow lots of replies to this weak and often repeated troll that sounds like it's from rec.climbing circa 1999.
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DataMind
Social climber
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It seems to me the FA party dictate how a given route is to be climbed. If they used or didn't use bolts, if they did it ground up or top down, trundled or left loose blocks, etc. Some climbs in my opinion need more tlc than others whether it be removal of blocks and/or dead vegetation or ensuring adequate protection. Some route can kill a FAist if it were not inspected and cleaned prior. But most of this development is restricted to crags which are easily accessible. Large walls often don’t afford such luxuries. The climbers that engage big stuff ground up are assuming a much bolder level of risk than one would on a established route. I believe that different types of rock as well as the size and approach factor in to how well protected a climb is. Different circumstances require different tactics to summit. Whats more throw in different personalities and of course you will see a gambit of strategies and end results. And the intentions of the FAist should be respected, whether or not they decide to adequately protect the route. It's is bad form to retrobolt, but by that logic it is bad form to chop as well. We all know there is more rock out there than can be climbed. Let exisitng routes remain as they are or let the few people intimately tied to it determine its fate. But the first generation doesn't own the wall by any means. I believe you should climb routes that are in your comfort level, develop new routes as you see fit, but understand that your routes will be a reflection of you and bolting does not go unnoticed so use them sparingly. In the end, drilling holes in a wall is just as "traditional" as and other type of protection as folks have been doing it for over a century.
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Eric Beck
Sport climber
Bishop, California
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many retro-bolters will not find the runouts on Snake Dike acceptable
I'm one of the FA party on Snake Dike, who has done it 6 times. It is perfectly okay with me for someone to add more bolts. I'd like to see a total of 4 bolts on each of the dike pitches.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Karl, how many folks golf in the US? How many climb?
Depends on whether you're talking about trad or sport golfers.
The climbing numbers are only speculation. A lot of people don't want their employers or the police to know they are involved in climbing activity. Keep it mum
PEace
karl
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I bet Eric couldn't even get away with retro-bolting Snake Dike even though it was already retrobolted and those bolts stayed.
It's all the quirks of the community.
Sorta like the Gay Marraige debate (trying to protect the traditional) except everyone is married to what changes on the stone
Peace
karl
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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Eric Beck....best run it by Bridwell first as well.....
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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LOL, Beck for the win....or the left turn...either way:-) The plot thickens.
I think you'd be voted off the island if anyone put any bolts in Snake Dike. Great route as is....but there is that comment....
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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I guess the Snake Dike discussion is a good example of the ridiculousness of the FA'ist rule to be honest given Jim's involvement with Dry Falls.
Before anyone thinks I am slandering Jim, my point is that ethics and style change both at the community level, but also at the individual level. So when an FA'ist has a change of heart, many years later after initially establishing a climb, it is "sometimes" ok to add bolts, but in the case of Snake Dike it wouldn't be?
Is there any better example of why this element of the climbing community "ethics" really is in need of being looked at?
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Karl makes some good points, I think that should he venture on to a golf course, Donini, would more likely die there, than climbing.
Probably why he's avoided it! I think.........
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Prod
Trad climber
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I predict that Donini would suck at golf.
Prod.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Do you resole golf shoes too?
Prod.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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A commonly raised rationale for retrobolting is many R and X routes were done by crazies or ego maniacs for name recognition, driven to gain prominence in guidebooks and histories and area lore. It's a very old and transparent approach to any argument in and outside of climbing: discount the points and preferences of the opposing party by slighting their motives and character. Of course there were unfortunate motives at work behind some old X and R routes, but the truth behind bolting of yesteryear is more complex than the workings of nutcases.
Strange to say (yet again), but once upon a time bolts were to be minimized as a blotch on rock. Bolts also were very hard to place standing on tiny holds with no hooks or rope tension, drilling away with an old Rawl drive, sometimes breaking bits and starting over. And so, minimal bolting was often done not out of perverse motives but quite the opposite: keeping with the accepted approach of the day and/or simply trying to get a route done before dark.
Moving from the issue of FA motives to the issue of the resulting route, the retrobolting argument still stands: why not add bolts to a run out FA to reduce risk and let those who want the risk skip the clips? Guidebooks could still give credit to the old lines and styles of ascent to honor them, no? Here's how I addressed the points in a previous discussion on ST related to a FA of mine and Vern Clevenger's, Hair Raiser Buttress, around which the retro bolting issue raged:
Of course there is pleasure being named in a guidebook or history. But to think getting into publications is such a central prize in climbing underestimates the complexity of the game. Preserving original protection is not to insure climbers get scared or first ascent parties get into history as bold. Preservation insures climbers preferring to do the climb in its original style get to do so. Some climbers prefer more risk and complication than many sport routes provide. They deserve their opportunities just as much as sportsters deserve theirs. But the picture is bigger than preferred risk profiles, for example simply selecting which from a string of bolts to clip or not. Not altering routes insures they remain tributes to the time and mentality around their creation. How?
An important joy of the climbing game comes not just from doing climbs, but viewing, pondering, absorbing the full well of experiences, the moving stage of heroes, fools and follies, high and low tales, grand and vain acts. In the drama, the features of routes and associated protection are the underlying choreography, the hand and foot sequences set in stone and passing on through time. Once bolts are added, their presence whether clipped or not alters the look and feel of moves as now the extra bolts are always there in case verve and confidence wane. The blank spaces are gone and with them the wobbly feel looking down and up, the original frustrations, pumps and rests, the curses and hoots. In short, the entire emotional passage is altered. And lost too is an assessment at the top and in the walk down and in sharing with others how nuts or noble were the makers, and our second guessing of all they felt. In short, there is no full tribute to the past, no way to tap the well of what once was. It is for these reasons, barring unusual circumstances, routes should be left to stand as they were first done.
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Karl makes some good points, I think that should he venture on to a golf course, Donini, would more likely die there, than climbing.
When I was in High School, I fooled with a little golf. One of my best drives ever went further than I though possible and landed squarely on another guys head!
Rock!!!!
peace
Karl
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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jojo said
I just think where there is no option but to bolt or run it out, the bolts may as well be placed reasonably. Not "every 3 feet so you can clip the next without leaving the first," that's a slippery slope fallacy. It just makes sense to avoid decking, 40 foot slab rolls, a pendulum into a dihedral for the follower, etc...
I think you're missing something here. If a route is put up ground up and drilled from stance you often will have sections where there is no stance to drill from. So you have to run it out. It's not like most of the runout routes were put up by peeps trying to make it dangerous or prove something (not to say there aren't routes like that).
Also you say something like
just don't clip it
Your wrong here two. If you've ever soloed anything you used to climb on a rope then go back later and climb it with a rope IT'S EFING DIFFERENT. Try it sometime. The ability to have a choice chances the nature of the route just like bring a rope rack and having a belayer. It changes the commitment level. You might try to argue that you should just bring fewer draws but that still changes the commitment - you get to chose what section you want to run it out on.
If you retrobolt it the communal 'we' will chop it.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Regarding FA motives for underbolting.
I'm sure laziness and poverty were right up there with ego in driving r and x rated FAs
If I'm climbing 5.13 why stop and hammer and lose money on 5.9 ground? Particularly if we can just waltz up this in a day.
Kudos to those who make routes for the sake of others besides themselves
Peace
Karl
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Eric Beck....Yahooo! Love it! After reading that along with everything else and the analogy to golf...Anything goes! Free for All! Just goes to show how cookie and crazy we humans are.....Ya man. Bolt the crap outa the Snake! But I'll bet they're gone within hours...Who knows, Maybe the whole shootin' match gets erased, belays and all....How could I take it so seriously!
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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In short, the entire emotional passage is altered.
Absolutely.
Let me add that although one can "just not clip the bolt", how would someone after the next guidebook is published know which bolts have been added? And would the new bolt lead to confusion for someone with an old book, thinking that they've gone off route?
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Once bolts are added, their presence whether clipped or not alters the look and feel of moves as now the extra bolts are always there in case verve and confidence wane. The blank spaces are gone and with them the wobbly feel looking down and up, the original frustrations, pumps and rests, the curses and hoots. In short, the entire emotional passage is altered.
Well worth rereading this section.
Climbs are not just pieces of rock set up for the safe and secure passage of all suitors. Many are lines of natural passage, and the key to passing through them safely are held within the climber's skill and mindset. Many are worth waiting for the time when you can unlock their secrets without using a battering ram.
I'm still waiting to hear a reasonable argument why one shouldn't climb a route if they don't have the required skills.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I accidentally replied to Coz on the Honold thread explaining that Jim already told us he doen't put up bolted routes, bold or sport. I deleted my posts over there and wanted to inform Coz who replied over there but Coz can't be contacted through supertopo so I'm writing it here. Maybe delete the post on that thread and we can return to writing here
peace
Karl
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Guck
Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Thanks for that post Coz. May be it is time for the retrobolters to do some soul searching and reconsider why they climb!
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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You calling Donini a "chump" for no apparent reason just makes you look like a mean spirited whack job yourself. Donini has FA'ed stuff you couldn't get up and which you would have pissed your pants just looking at, even as good as you've climbed. You might consider changing that post too as long as we are all changing posts.
Sorry just a fact
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Yay Coz and Yay Eric Beck! Eric for turning this thread and all it's (my)seriousness into a mushroom cloud and leaving it in ashes and to coz for keeping the flame! No need to post on this thread anymore. I'm off to chop me some retro's and climb me some of those beautiful old, nasty, runout testpieces! Leave the security of the crack and reaching for those pacifiers for those oceans of blank granite where the mind needs to be as strong as the body. Yahooo!
edit: Ament says he climbed the Ghost with Bachar and Bachar had chopped a couple of retro's on the route. He wouldn't let anyone defame it....That's me on lead in '10
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viejoalpinisto
Social climber
Pahrump, NV
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JoJo should announce his intentions to retro bolt a route in Toulumne about a week in advance and see if he even makes it to the base of the route.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Coz wrote
The Buddha said, "we can not perceive what we can not understand."
Unless you have created an FA ground up with no gear, you really don't know what you're talking about.
That goes for Jim and you. despite who you pretend to be or think of yourself.
You don't have the street creds to comment, and your opinion is based on pure speculation.
That's your opinion. I'm not sure I have one as I feel comfortable surfing reality, which is the appearance of consensus in the community. I guess if people started retroing more stuff, I wouldn't complain unless it got real wimpy. If folks brought down some never-climbed 5.9s and thereabouts with no pro down into 4-5 bolt a pitch standards, I'd probably be happy and more people would get scary adventures than less.
Personally, I think having put up a bunch of bolted routes gives you more and less credibility. You take your pride from it but not seeming to care about what you are giving the community. If it's too dangerous for them to enjoy. you're happy cause it makes you a stud. (Of course I bet you bolted those 5.13s at your limit pretty close)
I've freesoloed a lot and probably as close to my limit as you have. I've done a ton of the R and X bolted long moderate routes in the valley and I've also seen tons of that stone just sitting idle here while people wait in long lines to get on safer moderates here as well. When this situation comes up, I feel "it's not about me" and I wish those folks had more access to some sane adventure in their precious time off rather than keeping so many testaments to the egos of 5.13 climbers running out 5.9 and 5.10
Peace
Karl
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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F*#kin' A.
Sounds like everyone still feels the same as the Superchicken retrobolt discussion. At least that one had a few interesting tidbits in it and started off as a real thread, not a troll.
So, tell me, what are the best crack shoes?
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susu
Trad climber
East Bay, CA
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Preserving original protection is not to insure climbers get scared or first ascent parties get into history as bold. Preservation insures climbers preferring to do the climb in its original style get to do so. Some climbers prefer more risk and complication than many sport routes provide. They deserve their opportunities just as much as sportsters deserve theirs. But the picture is bigger than preferred risk profiles, for example simply selecting which from a string of bolts to clip or not. Not altering routes insures they remain tributes to the time and mentality around their creation. How?
An important joy of the climbing game comes not just from doing climbs, but viewing, pondering, absorbing the full well of experiences, the moving stage of heroes, fools and follies, high and low tales, grand and vain acts. In the drama, the features of routes and associated protection are the underlying choreography, the hand and foot sequences set in stone and passing on through time. Once bolts are added, their presence whether clipped or not alters the look and feel of moves as now the extra bolts are always there in case verve and confidence wane. The blank spaces are gone and with them the wobbly feel looking down and up, the original frustrations, pumps and rests, the curses and hoots. In short, the entire emotional passage is altered. And lost too is an assessment at the top and in the walk down and in sharing with others how nuts or noble were the makers, and our second guessing of all they felt. In short, there is no full tribute to the past, no way to tap the well of what once was. It is for these reasons, barring unusual circumstances, routes should be left to stand as they were first done.
Beautifully written!
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Do Higher Level Climbers Create Scary or Dangerous Climbs for the Rest of us?
Karl, I think your points about 5.13 climbers running way out and creating dangerous routes for 5.9 and 5.10 climbers would be helped with some examples of specific routes and people. Not sure where I fit in your thinking, but your point is pretty general without examples of people and places. Just what 5.13 climbers have created what routes in support of your point?
As for myself, I was a 5.12 climber (no 5.13s) in the day (not a lot of those, but several) and always tried to do new 5.9 and 5.10 climbs with reasonable protection for anyone climbing at that ability. I have admitted to running it on 5.8 and 5.9 sometimes to get moving before dark, or due to breaking drills or trying to avoid still more tedious drilling in the middle of a 5.8 section when it looked like easier ground was coming. But where I felt the resulting route was not reasonably protected, I either gave permission to others to add a bolt (e.g. Fairest of All) or went back and added a bolt myself (e.g. Jonah). I think my longtime partner Bob Kamps was of the same mentality and I can name others who, I think, were responsible on the point of placing protection with subsequent parties in mind.
Where to Focus the Retrobolt Debate
Generally, I think painting the creators of run or X routes as flawed (ego driven, lazy, bolt poor or thoughtless of subsequent ascent parties) muddies the waters on the retro bolting issue. In my mind, the issue of whether to retro bolt or not needs to be distinguished from the character or motive of the FA party. Why? I don’t think we can decide on whether or not to retro bolt by making character judgments case by case by route, especially as time goes on and history fades. For example, because of Bachar’s high esteem in the climbing community, no one now will seriously debate retro bolting the very run out BY. But as time goes on and the memory of Bachar fades, what then? And do we retro bolt, say, the very run Burning Down the House because some may not see the route creators as having quite the same esteem as Bachar or because, by their own admission on Supertopo, they were determined to create a very run route out of anger over a slight by an influential climber of the day? Talk about a slippery slope or muddy waters!
Nope, the focus should be away from character and motive of the FA party and on retro bolting itself. The nub of the issue is how we cope with multiple and conflicting preferences among climbers about how we create new bolted routes. I think we need to understand climbing never was and never will be a purely harmonious enterprise with all agreeing on climbing styles generally and protection styles in particular. Instead, we need to accept both the stellar and horrible routes around us, and our great hodgepodge of saints and sinners, however we define them. We can and should argue about better and poorer ways of climbing and resulting routes, but we need to let multiple styles have their place and day as long as they don’t imping on one another. So, sport away on your sport cliff. Trad away on your trad cliff. Curse and pass on an old R or X route, fair enough, but leave it untouched for those who want the quirky pleasure of doing it. Scold and pass on the sport route bolted every 10 feet, but leave it for those who like it.
The Way Out
While not easy, the way I suggest through tiffs like on this thread about bolting style is to agree area by area just how protection style preferences can play out without curtailing the options of anyone. Argue to the death (keeping as civil as possible) about what styles are superior as a climbing experience, but don’t chop the sport routes and don’t retro bolt the trad routes. Preferably, stake out cliffs to provide opportunities for each style and enjoy. If both styles have to play on the same cliff, go with caution when crossing old trad routes with new sport routes to avoid effectively retro bolting the old lines (new Southern Sierra guidebook will make just this point). I think this is the way (and maybe only way) to insure maximum climbing satisfaction and minimum harm to camaraderie of the game. Seem reasonable?
Tom Higgins
LongAgo
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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Karl, I think your points about 5.13 climbers running way out and creating dangerous routes for 5.9 and 5.10 climbers would be helped with some examples of specific routes and people.
Bachar's "You Asked For It" comes to mind
http://www.supertopo.com/rock-climbing/Tuolumne-Meadows-Medlicott-Dome-Right-You-Asked-For-It
though, that route would probably be seen by most people (myself included) as more of a statement than a "normal" route.
edit: mentioning YAFI does not mean that I would ever think for even a moment it should be retro-bolted. Just bringing it up because it fits the description of the type of climb the previous climber was asking for an example of.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Agreed to You Asked For It. From all reports, it does seem John could have placed a few more bolts for the "rest of us," though I don't know if there were no, few or many potential drill stances he passed as I've not done the route. However, I respect his choices for whatever his reasons and hope the route is never retro bolted as per my discussion above.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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While I was on the subject, i did a quick search of Clint's list of Yosemite routes by Slab or Face and pulled these 5.8-5.10 R/X Routes and their FA's
I have no idea which ones are more R or More X, just did a data dump.
 - -
9 Dressed to Kill 5.10b R/X Ken Yager, & Walt Shipley,
478 Jugs 5.8 R/X Barber, Henry
482 Holidays 5.8 R/X Scott Cosgrove, & Jenny Naquin,
1689 Reefer Madness 5.10d R/X * Guy Keesee, John Egger, Fred East, Steven Bedford; FA: Pat Timson, Don Harder, 1976
1691 Greasy but Groovy 5.10d R/X * John Long, Rick Accomazzo, Richard Harrison, 5/1974
2017 A Mother's Lament 5.10c R/X Rab Carrington, Rik Rieder, 1972
2033 Grack - Right 5.8 R/X TM Herbert, Ken Boche, 3/1970
2043 Flakey Foont 5.9 R/X * Vince Goetz, Rick Lee, Al Hu, 1972
2484 Tapestry 5.9 R/X * Heidi Pesterfield, Brian Bennett, 1986
2506 Spooky Tooth 5.10a X * John Yablonski, Fred East, Richard Harrison, 1976
2508 Shake and Bake 5.10c X * Rick Accomazzo, Richard Harrison, 1976
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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As a guideline I think the 'rule' against retrobolting is a great one. If you didn't have it the door would be wide open to dumbing down lots of routes and we'd have greater resource degradation and diminished challenges at a wide scale.
I think run out test pieces are cool. The problem starts when the majority of the limited amount of climbs in an area are put up this way (and there ARE limited amounts of climbs). IMO the majority (50% +) of 5.9 climbs should be a reasonable challenge for a 5.9/5.10 climber.
I think most run out climbs are put up that way not out of selfishness, or "look at me I'm a stud" but because the FA wanted that challenge, they couldn't afford more bolts, there weren't stances or whatever. But as I said when the majority of climbs in an area are put up as run out 5.9 climbs for 5.12+ climbers that rarely get done and there's big lines on the 5.9s with less run outs that's not a good situation.
I think climbs like the BY are awesome and should never see another bolt, but a climb like superchicken in which the FA is thinking about making one climb less run out in an area of many run out climbs I say let the FA retrobolt.
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Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
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I'll say it: R/X at walk up PRIME destination crags are bullshit and deserve every retrobolt they get. There it is :)
I put up a few scare-fests...in the middle of nowhere so people wouldn't give a sh#t, nor ever will. If YOU want the feeling, do it where you do not forever cross off a face from anyone else enjoying, have at it. The issue here is in the 60s, 70s, and even early 80s, there were prime picking close to the road based upon when you were born. To me, THAT IS THE ISSUE.
It isn't the 60s, 70s, or 80s anymore. /I'll be your Huckleberry mutha f*#kers.
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viejoalpinisto
Social climber
Pahrump, NV
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No JoJo, you are indeed entirely lame when it comes to formulating a logical argument. You are trying to change ethics using a dialectic approach masquerading as logic. You could start a new route two feet to the left of any route that is already there...but you don't , won't...you don't have the vision. All you have is stronger arms and no ethics....I see a you tube of a guy doing the "hardest climb...." with a bolt right in his face on the crux move and no fall potential on the whole route greater than ten feet. That ain't climbing'! it is gymnastics on rocks. Rap bolting, preplaced gear...that in't climbing neither. I don't care, won't ever care and the more I see of "you" doing amazing gymnastics...the less I care. Real climbing is not safe...Mastering the fear and keeping moving to the next stance where you can place pro is more the soul of climbing than any individual or sum of moves at any grade....My favorite route name "Sport Climbing is Neither" I can't believe how many of you lames can't even place a cam correctly, do a hand jam, chicken wing, or basic chimney move....From now on I am carrying a hammer and cold chisel wherever I go....not because bolts are bad...because sport routes on real rocks are lame....so your topic has indeed inspired some change!!!
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viejoalpinisto
Social climber
Pahrump, NV
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New project! Get YV sport climbs and go on a Rap-unbolting spree! You have made a convert!
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Went hiking along base of the Arches Apron area looking at potential climbs a couple of weekends ago. I'd heard Poker Face was a nice trad lead but was suprised to see how many bolts were on it. Consulted the taco search for some history and found a thread mentioning that it had been retro'd with many more bolts then the original route had. For some reason the OP has been removed. There was a comment up thread about how a guide book might reflect the changes and how the original line may be lost to history. Is the Reid guide accurate on this climb? Does anyone have the original topo?
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 10, 2012 - 07:13am PT
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Coz wrote
And if you want to do Solitary confinment, that was put up FA, free solo, and is a master piece, of the great JB, maybe you just need to man up and do it.
I think that's a good example of Bullshit right there and I love John. He's a 5.13 climber and master soloist and waltzes up this classic 5.9 face and puts it off limits to virtually everyone for eternity. That sucks. If he would have climbed it and then opened it up to being established by people who climbed closer to the grade I'd be all good with it.
But he almost died on the thing himself. He told me the story. He was up there and got in a position where he had to rely on this one knob and it was about to break. Just luck/karma that he didn't buy it right there.
JB was, and is, great, but the memory of his greatness shouldn't eat up so much prime real estate for eternity.
At least you can top rope the "Big Moe" I was sitting next to John and Reardon in Josh just a hundred yards down from it and some guys came around looking for it. I told them the story of the crazy as sh#t hotshot that soloed it and they "wowed" not know the guy was sitting right there.
Peace
Karl
PS. Coz, your original post was one assuming motives like attention, just reflecting the rays back at you.
Tom H. That's one example of 5.13 climbers leading it out. There's plenty in TM. A valley example would be Space Babble which Kauk ran it out on cause it's easy and they wanted to just run up and do the thing. Sadly, it's some of the best 5.9 and easy 10 faceclimbing anywhere but doesn't see ascents. Talked to Kauk once about adding bolts to it so folks could enjoy it and he was all for it but that was many years ago, so dont go by my word here
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 10, 2012 - 07:18am PT
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Tom wrote
Generally, I think painting the creators of run or X routes as flawed (ego driven, lazy, bolt poor or thoughtless of subsequent ascent parties) muddies the waters on the retro bolting issue. In my mind, the issue of whether to retro bolt or not needs to be distinguished from the character or motive of the FA party. Why?
The waters ARE muddy. Why pretend reality isn't what it is. On the First ascent of Sunshine, they ran out of bolts and left a one bolt anchor. Should that have remained One Bolt in blind testament to the FA party?
We better get used to dealing with some shades of grey because we already do. Note added bolt anchors to central pillar of Frenzy and the Nose. SHould people rap on fixed pins forever just because that what was there?
PEace
Karl
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jun 10, 2012 - 11:54pm PT
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Karl,
Many of the face climbs in Yosemite Climber are the types of climbs that I and many others aspired to climb and trained for for years to be able to do. Climbs like Quiksilver and Space Babble are icons of that book and the history brought to us. You would have this destroyed? You say it's reality but I don't see a consensus. I see an ongoing argument every time retro bolting is brought up. So I don't see what reality your talking about. Climbs, whether they are aid, sport or trad were put up by someone who had a vision of what ever their individual expression gave them. I don't think one has the right to change that expression, regardless of whether the medium is climbing or art or whatever. And I don't think there is a gray area. With the exception of Bachar and Kamps et al most of the FA'ists are alive and well and can be consulted as to the alteration of their routes whether it's about anchors or protection. And as for the climbs of those deceased, it's usually clear in what style they climbed. We added anchors just last year to one bolt anchor climbs with the consent of the FA party. And there are plenty of well thought out, well protected routes going up alongside those old slab routes. Climbs put up on Dozier Dome and the Razor Back in Tuolumne by Brian Law and others are an example. I certainly would not go pull bolts on those climbs to adjust them to my wishes without their consent. There is something for everyone out there and there are still lines that you can put up yourself in whatever style you see fit. Otherwise, leave climbs alone...
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Mtnfly
Trad climber
El Segundo
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Jun 11, 2012 - 02:14am PT
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
Jun 5, 2012 - 05:29pm PT
" don't clip the bolt" How about this for an analogy, It's like Pipeline, if it's above your skill level DON'T PADDEL OUT KOOK! :) Cheers ( not all routes or surf spots are for everyone)
Locals at pipeline, who are arguably the 5.13+ of the surfing world, don't suggest you paddle out on a135 lb koa wood board as it was surfed on the "FA".
It seems everyone here doesn't want to see grid bolting....those who hate bolts are scared that other people won't make logical choices on bolt placement. It seems only expert climbers ae smart enough to make these choices.
Those in favor of a few bolts here and there to protect 25 foot slab sections between BEAutiful hand cracks are just good people who want to open up more climbs for themselves. Not really a bad thing either.
I for one would love to climb more in tuolumne, but apparently climbers ahead of me...who are better than I, or most of you will ever be basically soloed every route in the area first.
What if we decided on a happy medium of 20 feet of slab allows a bolt. Not grid bolting....still need some balls and could get hurt...just won't die...prob...but maybe....
Also, maybe we need arbitration. Ask the surfing world what side of the argument they R on to give this debate some context.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 11, 2012 - 07:30am PT
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And I don't think there is a gray area. With the exception of Bachar and Kamps et al most of the FA'ists are alive and well and can be consulted as to the alteration of their routes whether it's about anchors or protection
There ARE all kinds of Grey areas, you just choose not to see them. Tom H said it didn't matter the motives or situation of the FA Party, like whether they were bolt poor. I noted that some routes like Sunshine started out with a one bolt anchor because of being Bolt poor. You talk about consulting the FA party but that's also a grey area. The FA guy from Snake dike (which has already been retro-bolted once) on this thread just called for 4 bolts per dike pitch. How is that for a gray area?
Retro-bolts on the sacred South Face of Half dome have already been allowed to stay and the FA party is calling for more, and I imagine the community doesn't mostly approve, which seems in contrast to how clear you seem to portray it.
Steck approved a bolt instead of the fixed pin protecting the crux on East BUtt of El Cap and it got chopped anyway. Now there is Neither. Just sayin' We think there are rules but only sorta. Whatever happens is what happens
I'm not saying how it SHOULD be. I'm telling you how it already demonstrably is, Gray.
Peace
Karl
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 11, 2012 - 08:35am PT
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I like it that there are almost no rules in rock climbing. Seems to me the danger/fear level of a route is a matter of personal taste. I would say, respect the tradition as long as it really is a tradition. ie, an X rated 5.10 that's only been climbed by a couple of 5.13 climbers, that's not a tradition. Did they put the route up for everyone to enjoy, or just for self-aggrandizement? I'd generally agree with Karl that its a good thing to make some climbs, which never get done, accessible to the public. But remember, the easier it is, the more gumbies you'll attract. If you have crowds of these people heading to, say, Yosemite, to do retrobolted routes, you may be heading down a slippery slope of changing climbing ethics. That's not a good thing.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 11, 2012 - 09:53am PT
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When Royal articulated the rule to stick with the protection scheme provided by the first ascent party, he talked about the combination of the line and the choices made by the first ascent party. This creation--the rock plus the choices--was what Royal wanted to protect. I think that there is another, not so elegant argument: the first ascent rule is pretty much the only practical rule to start from. Even if it gets modified, for whatever reason, starting at that point is the only thing that works for each climbing community.
Nowadays most of the arguments are about adding bolts to reduce the runouts. It seems obvious that this is a result of changes in climbing over the years. In the 1970s, taking many falls on a crux became the method of advancing the standards. It still is. Also, most younger climbers are introduced to climbing in gyms or on sports crags or on top-rope and the gap between those no-consequence falls and the sort of leading done when the routes were established is a difficult gap to bridge. In some sense, the arguments in favor of adding bolts is odd given the number of climbers who free-solo. I don't have much desire to weigh in on the "found truth" of this, but I can offer up specifics that define how I think it should be approached.
I did not do many bolted first ascents, and never climbed really hard, but I lucked out in picking some lines that turned out to be great routes. Some of these routes have become part of these arguments. So to make it personal,
"The Central Pillar of Frenzy" only had one bolt placed, on the 8th pitch, to protect 5.10 climbing. The pitch is otherwise runout on 5.8 (I think). I would object to a bolt being added, since that was the character of the climbing that we did in 1973. However, as I understand it, on the first five pitches, there are bolted belay and rappel stations that sustain the heavy traffic. I think that is great. The first five pitches are great climbing, and those bolts allow many teams to climb safely. The complete history of the First Ascent of The Central Pillar of Frenzy
"Freewheeling" done the same year, was the first climb on the North Apron of Middle. George, Kevin and I climbed in a style of sparse bolting, and there are only a few points of natural protection and bolts on any pitch. On the first ascent, I didn't put anything in on the first pitch, which is rated 5.7. There were no natural points of protection and I didn't stop to put in a bolt. This is an example, at a lower grade, of creating unnecessary difficulty--the 5.10 climbing is all well protected, the 5.8-5.9 climbing is moderately runout, and, at the time, the 5.7 first pitch had no protection. The only good thing that came from that is that Ron Kauk had to be rescued by Kevin on a subsequent ascent, providing a true but otherwise improbable account of Kevin and me climbing at a higher standard than Ron. A bolt was added on that pitch, and everyone thinks it is a good thing. I assume that there are extra bolts added on the belays, which I think is sensible since on runout slab climbs, the belay is the foundation of the system if someone takes a whipper and a long slide. If the belay holds, they will probably be okay. However, adding lead bolts on the remaining four pitches would take something away from the climb. The rock would be the same, but the climb would not. We thought very carefully (except me on the first pitch; I did the second pitch right) about where the route lay and where the protection bolts would be. We had plenty of talent, time, drills, and options. We chose the climb as it exists today. The posts on ST comment on how good the rock and climbing are, and how the sparseness of protection requires thinking about the sequences: the runouts are very much part of the climb. I think most climbers would object to more lead bolts being added. Here is my belated trip report: Freewheeling: La Direttissima per Ora Dove in b&w Oct 1973
"Hoodwink" was done with three bolts placed on aid to protect 5.10 face climbing above the roof moves. This was a horrible mistake fed by recreational drugs. It marred an otherwise great route, defined by the roof pull-over. I tired to do those face moves above the roof on the first try with no protection--I wasn't carrying a bolt kit--and backed down and came back with a bolt kit and with Jim. I always intended to return to the climb, chop the aid placed bolts, and lead the pitch with a single bolt placed on stance. I believe this is possible since I had spend so much time up there pondering it before I backed down and returned with a bolt kit. As I understand it, there are 5-6 bolts on the pitch nowadays. Apparently the three original bolts have been replaced and extra bolts have been added on low angle, easy upper slab. Bolts have been added for a belay at the top of the last pitch. If someone had asked me--no one knew that Cleveland even existed until I started posting on ST--I would have voted to chop the three original bolts and replace them with one. I would have agreed to another bolt or two on the remaining part of the upper pitch so that someone falling on easy climbing would not fall to the ledge above the roof and then pitch over the roof and land on the slab--that is an unnecessary danger and not fitting with the character of the climb. Since we set a belay at the top of the last pitch with nuts and slings, I would not have thought belay bolts were necessary, but I would have gone with the views of the person fixing the route. Here was my first ascent story: The First Ascent ot 'Hoodwink'
"Peter, Peter" on Fairview, is just to the left of the "Great Pumpkin." I though the route was stellar, but it is rarely done. The crux of the climb is a very well protected 5.10 traverse under a roof and an easier turning of the roof into a short corner to a great ledge. The climbing above is standard big knob. bolt protected, climbing with standard Meadows' runouts. However, on the first pitch, below the roof, I apparently lead 5.9 way above the ground without any protection. I don't have a complete memory of the first pitch. I had reported to Ed Hartouni that I thought I got something in to the left of the line, but I remember I calculated the odds of damage if I fell on moves in the middle of the pitch and near the top of the pitch. Ed Hartouni found a bolt on the first pitch, but I don't remember putting it in. (Ed has replace the bolts he found on the route and may have added additional bolts on the first pitch--I don't remember what he told me.) The 5.10 climbing under the roof is perfectly protected with nuts; the first pitch should have bolts that protect the 5.9 climbing. I am clear that the slab climbing below the roof should not be the crux because it is unprotected. Adding bolts to protect the first pitch would not in any way diminish the character of the climb. It also would correct my mistake in not placing bolts on the first ascent. As a note, when I was leading new routes, I tried to pay careful attention to the protection I was leaving for the next parties--I was trained by Bridwell--but first ascents are not formed as routes until they are done: you often don't know if the route is going to go, where it will go, if it will be any good, or ever be repeated. Placing lots of bolts can be a mistake: they could be in the wrong place or lead to an unfinished garbage route. In the case of Peter, Peter, on the first pitch, I was probably calculating the odds of falling and the risks relative to the time and effort to stop and drill. I also pushed myself to runout leads. If I had known how good the route was going to be, I probably would have put in more bolts. If I had known that the rest of the climbing was well protected relative to difficulty, I probably would have put in more bolts. I didn't know either of those things, and unlike Tom, I never returned to fix any of my first ascents. I think "Peter Peter" is a good route, but I suspect that unless the first pitch is protected, it will have few ascents: who wants to fall to the ground on a non-crux pitch. I would vote for bolts to be added to the first pitch in a way that fits with the protection relative to difficulty on the remaining pitches. Ed Hartouni's Rebolting Peter, Peter on Fairview Dome.. finally complete
None of these "solutions" fits into Royal's initial first ascent rule, but they are, in my opinion, natural outgrowths of his thinking--using his analogy, painters regularly touch up their own work before they say it is done, but paint added after the painter is done is considered bad form and is removed by later generations, if the painting is significant. My rules would be: Replace old bolts with newer technology. Double up bolts on belays and rappel routes. Add bolts or move bolts that are "mistakes." And preserve the character of the original ascent. This can be done with a sense of the history of the an area and the climbers who developed the area's style.
Somehow this is connected:
In Rome, the marble steps to the Forum disappeared long ago. The old steps were probably used on a newer building centuries ago, suited to the tastes of the Romans who took them. However, for me, something was lost in not being able to stand on the actual steps trod by the Roman Senators who have given us some of our best stories ("Et tu Brute?") and the foundation of our laws. I am sure that who ever used those original steps in their building's entrance probably didn't give a damn about what a long dead Roman Senator stood on or what a future American thinks; they just liked that they got them cheap and they look good. Contrary to popular belief, I was not around when the Forum steps were moved. If you want a personal point of view, ask Longago or Jogill, they were there.
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jun 11, 2012 - 10:46am PT
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Tom Higgins put up one of the climbs we re-bolted and fixed the anchors on, Curve like her, last year. He was specific in that he wanted the original character of the climb to remain. The climb is certainly run out. There have been unwritten rules, at least from what I've read here about the FA parties at least being consulted first. I think the gray areas (bolts added, chopped, whatever) are largely unknown to the FA parties because, at least from threads on here, most FA parties of aid, sport or trad seem to be upset when something is changed. If the original parties want to add bolts to the Dike, so be it. Just because it's a classic and Super chicken is not should not change the idea of the FA team being the deciders otherwise gray areas and slippery slopes. Don Paul. The community of climbers putting up slab climbs in the past was small and they dictated the style in which those climbs were installed. 5.13 did not exist to them as they were the leading edge and didn't have a reference point. Now there are many more people enjoying climbing and ratings are a hard thing to transfer. Roger's take seems reasonable and I think this is what's been taking place in the rebolting of routes. Replace the original bolts and upgrade the belays. Another analogy to surfing can be made. When I grew up surfing in Bolinas, there were no more then 10 to 15 locals who made up rules of the road which stood for many years. Farthest in the peak has the right of way. Take turns, etc. Now there are more then 100 surfers in the water if the waves are decent and the rules of the road have been left behind by sheer numbers. Times do change, but the rules were there. The "reality" is there's more people. So the masses dictate the rules, whether known or unknown. Thus, a thread on retro bolting is unavoidable. So yes Karl, there are facts but there were rules. The question is whether we should stick to the old rules or change them as the face of climbing changes?
edit: I forgot to mention that the grey ghost, an r/x route was put up by Royal. I talked to TM Herbert last summer who belayed Royal on the route. He said it was out of character for RR to put up such a bold unprotected line but he saw other climbs nearby and wanted to make a statement in the style of that time and place. Bachar later chopped bolts added to that climb.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 11, 2012 - 11:30am PT
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Interesting comment from TM about Royal and "Gray Ghost." They climbed "Gray Ghost" in 1970, and at the time there were few climbs in the Meadows. "Gray Ghost" was one of the first runout slab climbs. If Royal was reacting to other climbers the most likely suspects would have been our own Tom Higgins, or Bob Kamps, and maybe Tom Gerughty who led The Dike Route on Pywiack in 1966. I think it is more plausible that Royal was seeing the changes on the horizon and raised his game, so to speak.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 11, 2012 - 11:47am PT
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Well, you know what I mean. It is a great story. And it certainly was the only time I outclimbed Ron, if you can call free-soloing a 5.7 pitch outclimbing someone.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jun 11, 2012 - 12:17pm PT
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I like Roger's post and appreciate keeping things more or less the same with the exception of fixing some belays and correcting fa "Mistakes" and then he lists them
I made a point a few years ago of advocating FAs write stories about each of their ascents for posterity (and maybe even the Supertopo blurb) and also mention if there were any "Mistakes" or issues about the protection. That way, when the inexorable future arrives, and the FA parties are long gone, the kids will have the authorization to fix the mistakes like what Roger Mentioned and would also know when the FA party intentionally created the route that way and would be warned not to change things
While I'm personally for fixing some mistake routes, even if the FA team had a change of heart later, I'm not advocating retro-bolting as a whole. I'm advocating communication and information.
It's sorta like "Abstinence Only" sounds good to sex purists on paper but doesn't translate to effective policy in reality
BTW Roger. I took one of my worsts falls (until recently) on "Freewheelin" years ago. I was making what seemed to be the last hard move on a 5.10 pitch (after you leave this left facing corner) and slipped on ball bearings. Flipped up-side down and backwards and stuff. One of your bolts held me.
I went back for "revenge" some years later and when I got back to that pitch, I couldn't find the bolt that held my fall. Finally I found the broken off metal inside a hole, so I bailed as the first fall was far enough. I know the bolts have been replaced on the route but at the time thought they didn't find that very important one. Just putting it out there in case that bolt is still missing cause it's a great route but needs your old bolt
Peace
Karl
PS Kevin and Roger. Face climbing... It's only 5.7 if you are on route. I went to go repeat Quicksilver some years back and wound up off somewhere off-route on the first pitch. Wound up on the wrong anchors. I didn't know it until I started looking for the second pitch and it was off somewhere. Wondered why it felt so hard for the grade
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Jun 11, 2012 - 12:25pm PT
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Roger, that's great you put so much care into designing those routes. Particularly the comment that a super run out 5.7 pitch was out of character for the route and not supposed to be the crux.
As for Bridwell's idea of putting up the hardest/scariest routes he can, and throwing down the gauntlet for people to repeat them - there's a place for that too. I think Karl's idea was more about routes that were badly designed in the first place.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 11, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
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Hi Don,
I think that any idea that Jim had about putting up the hardest and scariest route only applied to his big wall aid climbs and his ice climbing. That is the nature of hard aid (and ice too, I think). If you find a good line, with the worst cracks and seams, you put in the best placement you can, stand up, and repeat. If you run into a blank section, you place a dowel. If you run into a great placement, the game starts over. If you chicken out, you put in a bolt. Once Jim was on a route, I think he only put in dowels instead of chickening out with a bolt. Everything else was dictated by the rock.
As much as I remember, on free climbing, Jim was very conservative with his protection. Partly that was because he climbed cracks. He also beat us up if we didn't think it through and allow for the second or subsequent ascents in planning our protection or setting belays.
He didn't like the bolted, runout slab routes his "boys" put up. He thought we were crazy.
He also didn't free-solo hard: "Why risk so much to gain so little," is the famous quote. However, I like Ron's "I'll watch" better because it conveys both Jim's why question and the performance aspect of free-soloing.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 11, 2012 - 01:01pm PT
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Okay Karl, repeat after me.
"Don't get off route."
"Don't break the bolts, they are hard to replace and you could be shot if you try."
"Don't fall. If the first ascent party had designed a route to fall on, they would have put in lots of bolts."
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wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
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Jun 11, 2012 - 02:14pm PT
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Well done Karl... And so great to hear from the FA crews. I look forward to climbing again on all of the aprons this fall and to test myself against them ( with them). I just think the FA's should be the starting point. I hope topo's are stilaround of the original formats.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Jun 11, 2012 - 02:21pm PT
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That Bridwell: such a wuss.
Jim is the most fearless guy I have ever know or climbed with. It is somewhat amazing that he didn't see those slab routes as great adventures. On the other hand, I would never have gone with him on one of his aid routes or big mountain adventures.
I was normal, and we all know that "A normal person would have died."
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Jun 11, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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Roger and Karl make really good points.
i would like to think that with all the improvements in the gear, harnesses, ropes and most importantly the SHOES now a days that these routes would be a little more secure technique wise than the 70's and 80's when these routes were put up. You still have to have the commitment and the balls to stick it out there, but now you have WAY WAY better shoes and rubber to deal with these challenges. I shudder to think how i would feel on these routes today with the gear and shoes of yesterday (80's high top sloppy fit Fire's).
please remember rock climbing is a CHALLENGE, always was and always should be.
If you can't find the mojo to do these routes then either: train your mind and body to get to that level, find a partner that will rope gun or climb something else.
lots and lots to do out there..
ks
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JoJo229
climber
west
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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How about no more bolts, and just these?
Also, I appreciate the discussion on here. There's never just one right answer
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jun 11, 2012 - 07:16pm PT
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Not sure though as I never had that problem...
Well then those must be some big holes.... Think my shoes could be in one of em?
Prod.
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Prod
Trad climber
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Jun 11, 2012 - 07:42pm PT
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Fuked up minds must think alike as the time for BOTH posts on different threads is the SAME...
Proud of that.
Prod.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Jun 12, 2012 - 01:30am PT
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wstmrndmr,
Yes, thanks for getting in touch on Curve Like Her about rebolting it. As I recall, you were perfectly agreeable to replacing the old, making good anchors and not adding any new bolts. Your actions demonstrate it is possible to get in touch with at least some of the FA parties of old climbs to get their perspectives. Of course, then you have the situation of Bob Kamps leaving us, and others still kicking but unreachable or unresponsive. But still, thanks for making the effort to get in touch and I hope others will emulate what you did to the degree possible.
Roger,
I'm OK with fixing "mistakes" too. I gave a couple of examples of where I fixed my own, or told others to do so in their second ascent. But here again, checking with the FA party is the way to determine if they see and agree with the "mistake" when they haven’t already fixed it.
If I remember that first pitch of Peter Peter, it seemed pretty out there. When we did it, we went left (run 5.9) into a little corner to get pro, then back right across the blank 5.9ish area on the main climbing line where no pro was possible. It still was dicey. But what a great route overall. I guess now there is a bolt or two on that pitch.
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bergbryce
Mountain climber
South Lake Tahoe, CA
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Jun 12, 2012 - 01:50am PT
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I had a friend who was bolting a long, supposedly cool coastal traverse route that he planned to protect with those things (last pic upthread) instead of bolts due to corrosion issues. I wonder how that project is going?
Some good discussion going on here. It's much appreciated.
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LongAgo
Trad climber
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Jun 12, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
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J-Tree,
I count 11 slab/face routes with X (alone or with R) in your search of Clint's Yosemite climbs. Thanks for the search. There maybe are more since Clint's list probably isn't exhaustive, but let's say there are 20 or 30. If that's the rough number compared to all the Yosemite climbs, I'm wondering why there is such angst and loud call for retro bolting to increase safer climbing opportunities. Even if all these routes were retro bolted, the proportion of new routes with additional protection wouldn't be much. Am I missing something? Maybe it's more the principle of the thing than any big sense of lost opportunities.
Of course, then there are R routes with no X, a larger number I'm sure, but much more uncertain than X as to the severity of danger involved.
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east side underground
climber
Hilton crk,ca
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Jun 12, 2012 - 10:30pm PT
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My analogy using pipeline as an an example was meant to state; match your abilities to the routes you choose ,ie; don't get in over your head. But , I also think that when you're ready - challenge yourself. Also pipeline was first surfed in 1961 by Phil Edwards on a " modern" fiberglass board - not a 135lb koa board. It was Butch Van Arsdale who really was the first to get barrelled regularly at Pipe. Waves are only a moment in time, a climb with bolts -way more permenate. Cheers
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jun 12, 2012 - 10:57pm PT
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It seems that for an area with so many runout climbs, Tuolumne has had remarkably few deaths or serious injuries as a consequence. Seems like climbers mostly get hurt rapelling, walking down, loose rock, or some other thing. People mostly avoid runout climbs that are too close to their personal limit.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Jun 12, 2012 - 11:15pm PT
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Nice one ESU.
I agree, match your ability to a route, but challenge yourself too.
I'm a fence rider here.
Not all routes should be made safe.
Some are testpieces, some are just f*#kups.
One thing that bugs me...and I know it's just a figure of speech...
"dumbing down"
Tell a non climber that a climb went from dangerous to relatively safe and see if they think it's "dumb".
Once again,I know it's just a figure of speech.
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LeeBow
Trad climber
Victoria BC
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Jun 12, 2012 - 11:39pm PT
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The argument that if you don't like em don't clip em has a flaw: The question is choice vrs. true danger. When it comes to slabs I can actually be brave some days. There are runouts that I aspire to. Skipping bolts just seems silly to me. In a way it feels kind of like free soloing with a rope hanging next to the route...you can chicken out any time you like.
The argument that those who put up runout routes are all glory seekers must stem from areas with huge climbing populations. I can honestly say that I've been known to drop in a bolt or two just to make sure the route gets in the guide. Yeah, I know that's a stupid jerk thing to do, but it kinda sucks to put a whole lot of effort into cleaning and developing a route just to have the credit go to someone else when they show up a year later and bolt your line.
I don't claim to know the solution but so long as bolt removal continues to be seen as vandalism whilst adding bolts is treated as a public service we're in trouble. I'm pretty sure most land managers would see thing in a very different light.
Please don't get me wrong. I enjoy sport climbing and have rap bolted AND bolted on the lead. Is there really no room for scary climbs?
Worst of all was the notion up thread that keeping an area secret is uncool. I spend alot of time scouting new areas in the off season. Am I now to understand that every single place I find MUST be overpopulated and grid bolted?
Humm...
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Apr 24, 2016 - 09:26pm PT
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Full disclosure: I made an alternate profile and started this thread when I was relatively new to climbing and had one too many "life flashed before my eyes" moments.
The funny thing is that this thread actually changed my mind and I understand both perspectives now. I actually talked to new(ish) climbers recently and tried to explain the benefit of leaving some climbs as-is, despite being ridiculously scary routes up otherwise amazing rock. This thread came to mind and I empathized with their train of thought.
Take heart, supertopo, online arguing can change minds. Some people are listening!!!! (but sometimes runouts are dumb :)
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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Apr 24, 2016 - 11:06pm PT
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the problem is that Islam is fatalistic same-same for the run
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Apr 25, 2016 - 07:37am PT
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So? No toproping? :)
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Apr 25, 2016 - 08:45am PT
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It is interesting how much my opinion changed regarding this subject over the years and I wonder how different it will be in 10-20-30 years...
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Apr 25, 2016 - 10:17am PT
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hellava lot more people dying on the couch...i'm concerned about the message couches send to impressionable youth.
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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Apr 25, 2016 - 11:57am PT
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Can you summarize? I'm curious....
In general, every route is unique and climbers putting them up are too. What is runout for one is well protected for the other. The expectation to leave the route without modifications not approved by the FA is very simple and easy to follow. As with technical difficulties, the fear management is a skill as well. Not every route should be doable for all.
In the past, I mainly had trouble understanding why very advanced slab climbers who created easy R X routes (because drilling sucks and no one wanted to do the work, unless necessary) be against addition of a few bolts to their routes in order to keep the route from being X. In such a case, approval for addition of a few bolts to such climb in a popular area (finite rock) seems logic. However, if I would be ok with someone adding a few bolts to my climb in such a place (or maybe even would do the work myself), it doesn't mean everyone else should or would think like me. And without considering unique circumstances of the climb, as stated above, the norm is to leave the climb as is. When you find something appropriate for your technical skills, but not appropriate to acceptance of risk, you have a choice to throw a top rope over it or save it for the day you feel up to the challenge. If you suck at fingercracks, you wouldn't bring a chisel to widen one to a handcrack...
More thought about the subject led me to a conclusion that most people who talk about adding bolts to existing routes, don't have the skills to do so, nor have a plan for particular routes. When one does, they can actually contact the FA team and ask. For most, however, it is only a topic for hours of empty yapping.
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Apr 25, 2016 - 12:31pm PT
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What Vitalis said...
My perspective changed when I was sitting around the campfire with Ron Carson and this subject came up. He is so mellow and there was zero trash or hate in the discussion. He simply thought if a guy saw a line, trained his ass off and put it together on one day of full commitment, maybe his best day, that's it- that's the route, exactly as it was, put up on that day.
To go back and erase a person's achievement, perhaps the culmination of a life's work, with no regard is lame. There's plenty of safe routes out there. Please leave the the epics for those who are willing to relive the emotion of the FA, as intended.
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brotherbbock
climber
Alta Loma, CA
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Apr 25, 2016 - 12:56pm PT
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When is Erik Sloan gonna chime in?
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Apr 25, 2016 - 01:01pm PT
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Please leave the the epics for those who are willing to relive the emotion of the FA, as intended.
when did the 'the emotion of the FA' come to own a piece of rock?
If my 'emotion' leads me to chip a line and place bolts every 3', is that ok too?
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Contractor
Boulder climber
CA
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Apr 25, 2016 - 01:59pm PT
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Patrick-Try to read the complete sentence. Since when, does chipping and bolting your way through a piece of rock constitute an "epic" as I was describing? Not some sh#t climb at your local crag that was put up in poor style.
The last pitch of White Punks is easy face climbing but only has 3 bolts. Go add a few bolts to that "piece of rock" and see what happens.
The fact that it's run-out, keeps you engaged, a little scared and honestly, I'm channeling the FA party when I'm on that section- they did that sh#t on lead, two bolts only, as darkness was falling. Yes, that evokes emotion.
There are guys out there, putting in the work, searching for great lines, placing every bolt with with careful consideration- Perhaps, once the route hits the guide book, you can go make things right.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 25, 2016 - 02:36pm PT
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Put up your own routes in the style you want.
Do not vandalise history in a way that suits your ego's need to look important!
There's a lot of rock out there.
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Apr 25, 2016 - 02:43pm PT
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It is interesting how much my opinion changed regarding this subject over the years and I wonder how different it will be in 10-20-30 years...
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 25, 2016 - 02:58pm PT
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So, have we decided that the OP premise was a troll or what? Surely it wasn't a serious post right?
Are people actually advocating for retro-bolting or is this an April Fools Day thing come late, like the metal plaque thread a while back?
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slabbo
Trad climber
colo south
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Apr 25, 2016 - 03:17pm PT
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To be as simple as I can..no it's not OK...Every bit of rock has to be safe for YOU ??? No it doesn't
Go ahead and retro an f/a of mine..I dare you
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Reeotch
climber
4 Corners Area
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Apr 25, 2016 - 04:45pm PT
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Retro-bolt one of my routes and I'm comin' for yer knee caps, mutha f*#k . . .
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Escopeta
Trad climber
Idaho
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Apr 25, 2016 - 04:57pm PT
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^^^^That's the spirit....
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jstan
climber
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Apr 26, 2016 - 10:45am PT
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The OP referred to "logic". OK let's try to be logical.
According to legal practice in the US if a person's name is on the Grant Deed for that parcel and there is no conservation agreement, wildlife or zoning impact, they may do pretty much as they please. Legally the first person to bolt has no right to modify another person's property absent prior permission. The status of the second, or fiftieth, person who modifies the property is not different. Here we will not approach liability issues.
Now it is possible for groups of people to set up additional controls regulating appropriate uses given transfer of enforcement right by the parcel's legal owner. This necessarily requires agreements between members of the group. So a choice has to be made by all persons desiring to modify property.
1. Do you want your climbing to be focussed on extended efforts, beforehand, to achieve the needed agreements within the group.
2. Or would you value more a climbing where you get to look up at awesome completely natural challenges posing the question, "Can I get good enough to do that?"
3. Or shall I go ahead on the cheap and spend the next forty years in silly arguments.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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Apr 26, 2016 - 01:17pm PT
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PLEASE, ADD BOLTS TO ANY OF MY FAs, Anchors Too. If you're in the 'hood I'll help. I wish that I had placed bolts on every climb I opened, (@least300), I did leave gear , pins and nuts,& rainbow webbing.
Someone added a bolt to one in Jtree, - Thank you.
Cool hard rock guy , escopeta, said So, have we decided that the OP premise was a troll or what? Surely it wasn't a serious post right?
Are people actually advocating for retro-bolting or is this an April Fools Day thing come late, like the metal plaque thread a while back?
As to the OP? HE admits it.
He is a Hypocrite, Not That There Is Anything Wrong With THAT! ,
it helps him with his faith, also, sorry couldn't resist
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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Apr 26, 2016 - 01:33pm PT
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when did the 'the emotion of the FA' come to own a piece of rock?
You aren't familiar with the bolt police?
Retro-bolt one of my routes and I'm comin' for yer knee caps, mutha f*#k . . .
So? No toproping? :)
If preventing wannabies from topropping was as easy as chopping a bolt, then the toprope police would have outlawed it. As it was, ridicule wasn't enough to stop the hoard of barbarians.
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Jaybro
Social climber
Wolf City, Wyoming
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Apr 26, 2016 - 07:14pm PT
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I'm sure it's troll, by a non liber, but people listen to this shit!
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| Messages 1 - 193 of total 193 in this topic |
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