Dick (Richard) Culbert project

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Tricouni

Mountain climber

Vancouver

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 7, 2012 - 10:35pm PT

I'm going to be working on that! Haven't covered it yet.

Oplopanax

Mountain climber

The Deep Woods

Jun 9, 2012 - 01:36pm PT

make sure you cover the train-hopping

riding the rails is probably the first thing i think of when i think of him, after the sandbag grades that is.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Jun 9, 2012 - 01:54pm PT

That quality over quantity thing rings true with me.

Best of luck with the project.

Tricouni

Mountain climber

Vancouver

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2012 - 03:19pm PT

riding the rails is probably the first thing i think of when i think of him, after the sandbag grades that is.

I'm certainly covering trains, but I only have one photo from those trips.

Sandbag grades? What sandbag grades? (I'm reasonably serious here....)

hamie

Social climber

Thekoots

Jun 9, 2012 - 07:57pm PT

I hope that someone, somewhere has a copy of the photo of Dick climbing Siwash Rock with skis on. Beyond classic! Nails?

That could be a sandbag grade--it's at the beach......

Oplopanax

Mountain climber

The Deep Woods

Jun 9, 2012 - 07:57pm PT

I'm thinking of the grades that perhaps were touched on in 1969 when Dick wrote in the CAJ of the Prow route that its "numbers had been subject to a population explosion" or the statement in the VOCJ about Gambit Grooves - "Difficulty is 5.7 by Yosemite standards or 5.5 by Chief."

Tricouni

Mountain climber

Vancouver

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2012 - 08:47pm PT

Hamie, I think I have a photo of the Siwash Rock escapade. I'll have to search harder for it. I hoped that you had a copy?? By the way, it seems that you and Gordon were the ones that originally suggested that Dick go to South America.

Oplopanax, I know what you mean, but those grades were never deliberate sandbags. Here are a couple of Squamish examples:
Diedre 5.4 (Culbert & Woodsworth); 5.9 (McLane; too high IMHO)
Snake 5.6 (Culbert & Woodsworth); 5.9 (McLane)

A non-Squamish, mountain example:
Old Barrel Sides (Howson Range): "a complicated route...with nothing worse than a couple of class 4 overhangs." (It's class 5)

Mt. Colonel Foster (Vancouver Island): East Face: "Climbing seldom above mid-5th" Today: 5.8 and sustained.

I think it's more a case of grade inflation over the years, rather than sandbagging, but that's a topic for another thread.

Oplopanax

Mountain climber

The Deep Woods

Jun 9, 2012 - 11:19pm PT

Point being, when he wrote the SW BC guide he was aware of the discrepancy between the Yosemite grades and the grades as applied at Squamish in the 60s, and as far as I can tell he upgraded some, but not all, of the grades in the guidebook accordingly.

It's the "but not all" part that still gets people today climbing old and rarely repeated routes.

I mean, Harvey's Pup, Pup Buttress, given 5.6 A2 on the first ascent. Unusually we also have in the FA description notes on what aid was used - a total of 4 pins. One at what is now the 10a crux pitch, and three on what is now a steep 5.8 fingercrack (must have been tougher in boots). But there is a significant amount of what is by no means easy 5.8 and 5.9 climbing on the modern route that was freed and called 5.6 then, including a 30m pitch of partially overhanging (leaning) hand and fist cracks.

Even though, by 1969, Culbert knew that 5.5 Squamish = 5.7 Yosemite, when he wrote the 1974 Alpine Guide to SW BC, the grade of the Pup Buttress was given as "5.7, minor aid". Th grade of Diedre is also given as 5.7 in the same book. But Diedre today is also 5.7 (Kevin McLane grades aside) - much easier than the supposed 5.7 on the Pup Buttress. Hence, sandbagging through inconsistent grade correction.

Tricouni

Mountain climber

Vancouver

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2012 - 12:34am PT

He was modest and certainly prone to understatement, and if that's sandbagging, so be it. Mainly happened on routes for which he did the first ascent. I haven't done Pup's Butt, so can't comment on that, but you guys are probably right.

I agree: "Class 4 overhangs"??? WTF?

EDIT: Bruce, Oplopanax: I appreciate the feedback and criticism. It will help keep me objective (as much as I can be). Glenn

Tricouni

Mountain climber

Vancouver

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2012 - 12:43am PT

Yeah, Tami, I've been guilty of this stuff, too. But again, not because of deliberate sandbagging. I remember the first time I climbed at Leavenworth and I was amazed at how easy the 5.7 routes were compared with Squ. I though the Leavenworth people had inflated the grades, for some reason.

I never climbed in Yosemite, so I never was able to compare my grades to the gold standard.

Tricouni

Mountain climber

Vancouver

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2012 - 03:46pm PT

Fifty years ago today, Dick Culbert, Ashlyn Armour-Brown, and I summited Monarch Mountain (3555 m, 11663 feet), for the second ascent of the original route. This peak is the highest in the Coast Mtns outside the Waddington Range and was the first peak over 10,000 feet that Dick had climbed.

This miserable photo of one of us on the summit ridge might be the only one surviving from that climb. Looks really wintery up there; I froze my feet.

laughingman

Mountain climber

Seattle WA

Jun 11, 2012 - 03:50pm PT

The mans a serious legend, the Coast Mountains are a hard and unforgiving place....

thekidcormier

Gym climber

squamish, b.c.

Jun 11, 2012 - 05:01pm PT

Rad photo Glenn!

hamie

Social climber

Thekoots

Jun 11, 2012 - 09:49pm PT

Here's a pic of Arnie Shives, after the 3rd asc of the original route, 1964. More wintery conditions, and a very long day.
EDIT: Another paid vacation, this time thanks go to Kennco Explorations.

Glenn, you were part of this dubious crew for a couple of weeks, before heading off to Serra V etc with Dick.

Tricouni

Mountain climber

Vancouver

Topic Author's Reply - Jun 11, 2012 - 11:13pm PT

Nice picture, Hamie; wish I'd seen that about a month ago (for the art book on Arnold Shives that's at the proof stage now).

Yeah, no matter how you do it, that Monarch route is a long day. Did you have any problem with the schrund?