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dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
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May 29, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
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I doubt Charles would ever endorse modifying the route, but, I could be wrong.
Plus, if folks want to do the Muir Trail they can, as Rick and friends proved.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
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Will someone please private message me with Charles' email and phone?
Rick
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rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
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May 29, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
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Wow. This is an excellent topic, ideally suited to the ST Forum!
I've got a tri-tip on the bar bee, I should be doing report cards, and this is all swirling in my head. Well done, Ricky!
This is a bold and delicious route. It demands a lot, and it yields outstanding rewards. The aid is truly brilliant. Rick didn't mention the killer moves from the top of the aid to the belay--which Rick led, and I think is technically the crux. Combined with the Muir Trail (RA's clever pun), the Flying Circus is smack in the middle of some of the finest granite on the planet.
Darrell and I had a good discussion about the Muir Trail a while back, and we each clearly remembered every move and every hold. It is a unique bond, forged by shared uncertainty, doubt, courage, and discovery.
I agree: What is a museum route?
This rambling is just a bit of bumpage to help keep this on the "front page"--so to speak. Let's get Charles involved, Ricky. I need time to reflect on this...
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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May 29, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
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I agree: What is a museum route?
Flying Circus may be the ultimate “museum climb” at Tahquitz. A museum climb is one usually only read about in the guide book and looked at, but hardly ever climbed.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
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A couple more photos:
For perspective,looking up at the Open Book, you can see from left to right:
Turboflange/Edge, Open Book, Zig Zag, Mechanics Route,and Green Arch. Just around the corner a bit to the right of the arete on the far right of the photo is Flying Circus.
Looking down from the belay on the existing second pitch. John is hanging on the bolt below the belay. Below that out of sight to the left is the last aid bolt and the crux free climbing section that Rob mentions is between that aid bolt and the one John is on.
High step on the Muir Trail. I didn't fall on the top rope, but it was a close run thing this time.
Thanks, everyone, for the comments so far.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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May 29, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
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Surely it would be OK to replace old bolts with modern ones, one for one? And while doing so (from rappel, probably), closely examine the route in case there have been physical changes that affect whether/how it can be climbed. Those who did the FA can then natter about what if anything ought to be done.
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Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
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May 30, 2012 - 12:10am PT
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M.H....the old bolts already have been replaced (reciently) with new ones.....
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pile
Trad climber
jail
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May 30, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
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bumping this back to the top
Thanks for chiming in Mr. Muir
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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May 31, 2012 - 11:37am PT
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My thoughts about FC would be to enhance one hook placement rather than add a bolt as both ways will alter the rock. This would at least keep the route as close to the original FA look and feel. I've been up on the route four days now, originally trying to free climb and then attempting to aid thru the first hooking section. I do believe the free climbing could start at the first aid bolt at hard 5.12. This is a phenomenal route and I will not do anything without some consensus.
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neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
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May 31, 2012 - 11:49am PT
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Bump
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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May 31, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
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Nice picture Johnny.
For the sake of argument let's consider a hypothetical case. Let's say that the Muir Trail had a single key hold at the very end of the runout. A hold so critical that it's absence would turn it virtually impossible to do. The hold breaks off. Would we then chip a new hold to replace it? What would more likely happen is that a bolt would be added, given the fall size and that there is a difference between a 10+ move and a move where - if it even goes at all - it is virtually guaranteed that no matter how bold or good one is there will be repeated massive flying lessons. Even then, there might be a select few who could pull the trigger without added pro. Free climbing doesn't accept medium alteration, instead it asks one to step the game up to the new level of difficulty.
Why should aid be allowed to modify the medium when free can't? No one would approve of chipping a free hold, why allow it for aid? Free climbers would go berserk if that was done to the Muir Trail. Aid climbers ought to feel the same way about the first pitch. Yeah, I know, with free climbing the distinction between alteration for pro and climbing is obvious. With aid the pro is the climbing so it's a little more messy.
Ricky stated that he might have seen the placement he used, but wasn't sure. It seems we need to know for sure the placement is gone and has no alternatives. The move has been tried on TR without success, is one person good enough? If it is, then I say either force a cheater stick to be used (not very desirable IMO), or put a REAL piece of metal in it like Ricky suggested, thus looking forward to, and facilitating, future free attempts. If the hook move can still be done but makes the aid harder, so be it, leave it alone. Just like we would if a free hold broke off. Some routes just aren't going to get done much because they're really hard to do. That is not a bad thing.
Regarding moving the belay. I thought I knew what I thought, but now think that I may have thought wrong. hehe. So I reconsider. I don't like long falls onto belays and feel they should be avoided when they can be. When its 1/4" bolts it becomes even more suspect. But now the bolts are modern fatties. Even though I still don't like the idea of long falls onto the belay the bolts should be able to handle it better now. Unfortunately, moving the belay would affect both pitches, it can't help but do so. So I guess after all I'm inclined to say leave it even though I initially liked the idea. BUT - either way, you knuckleheads, don't do something like that again, it scares people when they worry about the belay plus the runout. Go ahead and run it monster, just not right off the belay (please).
Just my 2 cents worth, feel free to debate it.
The Flying Circus is a masterpiece. It would be a shame if it was restored beyond what it truely needs. I like to think that if the FC is a museum piece, its a pricessless work (the likes of which only rarely ever occur) in some fine art museum. There are different types of museums, and some of them serve to protect what is pricessless while still allowing the public to experience it.
Egads, I hate that museum piece to climb correlation, it doesn't work for me.
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Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
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May 31, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
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I don't agree with your comparison to a free climb. Aid routes, with the exception of clean aid, almost always result in some damage to the rock, by pounding in pins, copperheads or even hooks that break off edges. Also, many established aid routes have bat hook holes and other forms of enhanced hook placements. I would like to see as little damage and alteration to the rock as possible which would not involve drilling a bolt and creating a A0 move.
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henny
Social climber
The Past
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May 31, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
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Don't the options of an empty hole or enhanced hook also run the risk of blowing out themselves in the future? Which would put us right back where we are now.
How good should the enhanced hook be made? Slippery slope.
I did state that alteration becomes a messy wicket when aid is involved. Certainly agreed, if the aid isn't clean it is in and of itself an alteration for any ascent. To that extent, I have to agree with you that the comparison breaks down somewhat. Damage as a side effect of the placement may be unavoidable, it just seems different when in an effort to even make a placement in the first place.
Just free the darn thing and the problem goes away.
What would it take for acceptable free pro? No new bolts? A bolt at the placement? Would the pitch require an additional bolt elsewhere?
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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May 31, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
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Leave it alone.
A 2 pitch aid line, that won't go free deserves a spot in the museum.
Enhance this, bolt that, give the free climbers a better shot?
Twisted logic for a route with 2 ascents.
Keep turning that wheel.....
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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May 31, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
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Since a cheater stick apparently works for aiding past the hook move in question, nothing really needs to be done.
But, if somehow now you can't cheat past, it suggests the next hook move is gone too. A bat hook hole down low won't solve that problem will it?
If the idea is to make it safer as an aid climb (with the subtext as future possible free protection) add the bolt and be done with it.
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Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2012 - 10:01am PT
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Kevin-I don’t think there is much chance of getting into the start of the free climbing on FC from Green Arch. It’s actually quite a ways away at that point, and very steep and smooth there, despite the fact that the routes converge higher up. There is an existing free route that traverses into Flying Circus after the aid section, but from the right: Gib Lewis and Charles Cole’s New Wave, rated 5.12 (X). See this thread for Gib's account of the first ascent:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1690295/New-Wave-5-12-X-at-Tahquitz-Repeated
John has scouted New Wave from above and there is still an original 1/4” bolt on it that needs replacing. John was very impressed with the moves Gib did on the lead, telling me that he thought that Gib must have tension traversed or pendulumned the sideways crux. This indicated to me that he thought the moves were ridiculous. I assured him that Gib, a meticulous rocket scientist, is as honest as Abe Lincoln and would never exaggerate on this. If Randy is ok with scanning the topo from his guidebook, I’ll post it and you’ll see how the routes connect.
The problem with New Wave traversing in from the right is that it is even more of a museum climb than Flying Circus, having never been repeated since its first ascent in 1983, and it is even less likely that anyone will use it to access the easier Flying Circus free climbing. The link up of New Wave to FC has yet to be done; in my opinion, one of the last, great problems at Tahquitz.
Rob mentions the crux free moves at the end of the aid on the first pitch. This section was a puzzle on the first ascent for me and I blew off it a several times leading. Charles caught a photo of me mid air and the picture made it into the Chouinard Catalog that year. Because I fell off while balancing up on the mantle, I fell backwards making for some picturesque air between me and the rock , even though the wall is less than vertical at that point.
I found this section not as hard as I remembered it on the top rope and didn’t fall this time, just as Rob didn’t fall on the top rope during the first ascent. John found a way to do it without mantling and I was able to get it both with and without the mantle.
On the second question of whether to rearrange the belays, I am now leaning against that option. The reason is that even the relocated belay would still require doing the technical crux moves right off the belay, albeit with a shorter fall potential than on the Muir Trail. There would still a lot of force on the rope and the belay because of how little rope would be out.
The solution is revealed in the picture of John hanging from the bolt below the existing belay. When the next person leads this, I would suggest lowering the belayer to the bolt below the two bolt station and setting up the belay there. This would mean that the belay would be securely attached to three good bolts and a good length of rope would be out in the event of a false step at the end of the run out on the Muir Trail.
On the issue of adding the bolt to the hooking section, I am against creating a new hook placement with a chisel. I agree with Henny that adding the bolt is better. Another reason for adding the bolt is that if one could free climb past this blank section, John has figured out a way to free climb straight up past the first bolt, ignoring the hooking traverse right. So there is potential to create an entirely free route.
There is really just a short section to free and I think it would be not much of a loss to sacrifice an A4 hooking section that nobody ever does to possibly gain a new free pitch. And if someone really wants to do that hook move after the bolt is in, he or she can still do it with bolt protection.
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Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
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Perfect use of the taco. My vote is to let the FAs make the call. If I was the FA, I would be inclined to let it stand because technology has improved greatly since then, thereby lowering the difficulty, missing flake notwithstanding. Who knows what future developments will help even more?
Beefing up the belay seems reasonable to reduce the chances of a anchor blowout.
Gotta go - I'm spending all day in the gym so I can redpoint White Maiden this weekend...
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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This is a great use of the Taco. BTW I'll give this some of my (worthless) thoughts.
When I first started out climbing I could never understand the existence of "death-routes". It seemed logical that a FAist would want other people to climb their route and experience it, so why not retrobolt your route that is really good and eliminate the R/X rating that is going to scare everyone off it? There's certainly a few gems out there that are really stellar, but so runout no-one climbs them and that is a shame. I can think of a couple I would love to see a bolt or two added to if I had a say.
As I got older and I've read dozens of amazing FA stories about iconic routes... I've changed my tune a bit. I've come to realize that some routes stand as a singular expression of an exact moment in time. A stroke of the artist's brush as you will, and those canvases end up in the "museum". Like Henny said: "Some routes just aren't going to get done much because they're really hard to do. That is not a bad thing.". Not every route needs to be repeated or made more accessible.
In the end it is your decision Rick. It's your canvas. It seems like you regret that other people haven't climbed it more. If that is the case I agree with Randy. Add a bolt, beef up the belays and be done with it. In my mind I prefer the romance of looking up at it as it stands and picturing that day back in 1978 when the hook placement held.
People will support whatever decision you make.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
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Rick,
Feel free to post the topo.
My two cents worth would be to add a 3rd bolt to the belay. The leader could clip into it, Though it would not really shorten any leader fall, it would make the belay more secure and perhaps lessen the fall factor. No one will complain about a beefy belay anchor.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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I'd venture that not many climbers have much of an interest in doing routes that have short aid sections unless they are trying to free them. A free route that has 10 feet of hard hooking breaking up free climbing has no appeal for me. Plenty of other great routes out there w/o the jingus.
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