Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
| Messages 1 - 66 of total 66 in this topic |
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Original Post - May 28, 2012 - 05:19pm PT
|
Flying Circus may be the ultimate “museum climb” at Tahquitz. A museum climb is one usually only read about in the guide book and looked at, but hardly ever climbed. There are only two known ascents, Rob Muir, Charles Cole and me in 1978, and Darrell Hensel, Dave Evans, and Todd Gordon in the mid eighties.
Some photos from the first ascent:
Reaching the belay at the end of the first pitch. Photo by Charles Cole.
Rob Muir placing the bolt at the end of the run out on the Muir Trail.Photo by Charles Cole.
FC is an anachronism in that the hardest part of it is aid climbing, hooking past a blank overhanging section. I led this section in 1978 and it was so scary that I still remember it very clearly. I top looped from a Rurp placement (now fixed and cabled) and was able to get a Logan hook onto a small edge on overhanging rock. Weighting this tenuous hook, I was able to carefully make my way to the upper steps of the aiders and reach up high to hook a small horn. From there, it was one more secure hook placement to put in the first bolt. A fall from anywhere below this first bolt would be serious, slamming the leader into the less steep rock below.
Todd G. has described the second ascent, here.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=155821&msg=156402#msg156402
John Weinberg is a very talented climber and somewhat of a patron of museum climbs. For example, he recently notched the long awaited second ascent of Hensel's 5.13 “Something You’re Not” at Suicide.
John recently emailed me to inquire whether Flying Circus might go free. I encouraged him to put a top rope on it and if it went free, add bolts so it could be led. John rapped down and tried it, but it was too improbable, even for one of his proven ability. The rock is pretty featureless for about 10 feet and overhanging in that stretch. He also brought hooks up, but was unable to do the key hook section, even with a top rope. John also replaced the last remaining original bolt on the route.
So last weekend I was in Southern California on business and met up with John and his friend, Laura, with the goal of taking a look at Flying Circus, and maybe doing something to allow climbers to access more easily the upper free climbing section. There was rumor that a top climber had pulled off a key flake in the hooking section and I wanted to see for myself. Others have tried the route over the years, as indicated by a couple of mysterious, chopped bolts in the middle of the aid section.
John led us up Mechanic’s route, the great historic classic that I hadn’t done since the 70’s. It is just as good as I remember it; you leave the security of the crack and venture out on steep granite scoops that are not secure even in modern shoes. This was a phenomenal lead for 1937, a landmark in the history of bold climbing in America. We then did a short traverse to the two bolt anchor at the top of Green Arch’s second pitch. From there, we were able to rappel down Flying Circus.
It was strange looking down on the route 34 years later; on rappel it looked absurdly blank.
We top roped the second pitch first, the “Muir Trial”, named for Rob Muir, who led it after a long fall on his first attempt. The line traverses a few feet straight right from the two bolt belay and then goes up straigth up some gold colored rock on intermittent edges for about 15 feet. Then comes a difficult stretch back left to a 2 inch sloping foothold where you really have to trust your left foot, and a misstep is unthinkable. To lead this in EBs and get that bolt in required terrific composure under pressure, a continuation of the bold precedent set by Dawson on the Mechanic’s route in 1937.
Laura, top rope on the Muir Trail.
We then top roped the first pitch, which originally had free climbing to a forty foot aid section before going free again to a two-bolt belay. The entirely free second pitch , the Muir Trail, started from that belay.
As to the aid section, It is not clear whether the key hook move can be done today. On rappel, I thought I saw the key edge I may have used, but didn’t try it. It is unfortunate that the hook move prevents anyone from doing the route because the upper part is some of the best face climbing at either Tahquitz or Suicide, located in a unique, spectacular position.
So I propose adding a bolt slightly right of the crux hooking section. This would allow those who want to try the hard hook move to do so with protection, without risking the penalty of a late fall. If in fact the hook move is not possible anymore because a flake ripped off, one could clip the bolt and use it for aid rather than protection, and then hook the remaining 30 feet or so to the second bolt we placed on the route. This is where the aid ended and free climbing started again. Also, that bolt would allow ambitious climbers to work on trying to do it free.
I also would like to add a second bolt at the end of the aid section so that the first, mixed free/aid pitch ends there. This would have the advantage of having the Muir Trail runout be no longer right off the belay. You’d have more rope out there and less force generated if you fell. That runout is long, but pretty safe as you can’t hit anything. This was proven by Rob’s fall on the first ascent; he was unhurt and went back up and got it.
Reworking the pitches this way would also mean that all you would need for the first pitch would be aid slings and hooks. The first pitch, until the hooking starts, is well protected with cams and nuts and now goes free up to the fixed rurp. Then the hooking starts and continues for the next 30 feet, including a tricky and difficult hook traverse straight right that Charles Cole led on the first ascent. The route after this change would have a longer second pitch of excellent face climbing that is hard, but certainly doable by many climbers, especially if used to Tahquitz and Suicide style face climbing.
I believe that local climbing community should have a say in these sorts of decisions. I am no longer a local having lived in Colorado for 32 years, so I encourage any comments on this. If reworked as described, it will create the opportunity for a very memorable experience: a throwback to the days when most of the climbs at Lily Rock were aid climbs, but with the aid allowing access to some stellar free climbing.
|
|
klk
Trad climber
cali
|
|
|
May 28, 2012 - 05:23pm PT
|
interesting proposal.
i love the rock over there--
fwiw, the start of mechanic's was originally an aid point-- a tension traverse in from the left.
|
|
pile
Trad climber
jail
|
|
|
May 28, 2012 - 10:22pm PT
|
wow here is a topic that I am glad was brought up...and coming from the first ascentionist gives this even more substance.
i think it comes down to do we want to have museum climbs around? at this venue, there are some, but there just not as many museum climbs at suicide and tahquitz anymore. i think Flying circus is the 10,000lb gorilla up at tahquitz when it comes to museum climbs.
i thought it was a big deal when John W got the 2nd of someone your not. I kinda want to hear about guys breaking those boundarys on these museum climbs, I am sure Mr. Hensel, Gordon, and Evans hold that 2nd close to them. when it comes down to brass tacks, to bolt or not to bolt, is up to the FA guys in my book. in this case since the FA team and SA team are friends, they all should talk about it. Do we want to give the climbing community a free climbing challenge? I kinda want that portal to 1978 to be always there, the route in the way you guys first did it. I am sure i am not the only one that has stared up at flying circus and dreamed of climbing it.
its the FA teams call for new bolts on anything i feel, and that is you Mr. Accomazzo, thats way cool that you want the local opinion, but you were as local as you can be at one time i am sure!
There is plenty of good hard freeclimbing in that area, the old aid routes are slowly dwindiling one by one...
in a imaginary place where votes counted, I say leave it
And Mr. Accomazzo, its a honor to discuss this with you, I have long admired your adventures
|
|
Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
|
|
|
May 28, 2012 - 10:35pm PT
|
A route out of my league but a great discussion. Anxious to hear what Todd & Dave have to say.
It sounds like a sensible proposal.
Also keep in mind the next generation of Stonemasters, should they ever come. Apelike creatures with extraordinarily long arms, handlike feet and low central body weight.
|
|
F10
Trad climber
Bishop
|
|
|
May 28, 2012 - 11:10pm PT
|
Good stuff, this is what the taco is all about
Keep it coming.....
|
|
splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
|
|
|
May 28, 2012 - 11:37pm PT
|
Sounds like an awesome route. i loved Tahquitz & Suicide and spent a lot of time climbing there back in the early seventies. Bouldered with RM a few times around Idylwild. Hopefully it will get a much deserved third ascent and more attention. Sounds like a lot of bold effort and work was put into its F&SA. Thanks for keeping it alive and in focus RA!
|
|
dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 12:57am PT
|
Wow, May 1986 was a big month for me!
The FA of the Pope and the 10th of the Totem Pole ,FAs of "Why Does it Hurt When I Pee?," "Wheel of Fortune," "Like So Much Baggage," "Ravens Do Nasty Things To My Bottom," the second A. of "No Pie A-La-Mode" and the 2nd on "Flying Circus" a total of 45 routes. We climbed a week in Utah and then all remaining weekends in a row, The Portal, Josh and Tahquitz. Every weekend and more was the norm in those days.
For the record Margy Floyd was on it as well and also did the Muir Trail with no falls and the cheat stick was roughly 10 feet long(shorter than 2 etriers clipped together).
Please forgive me for spraying and thanks for the memories!
What's wrong with a "museum" climb?
But, feel free to do whatever you want, the future is now!
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 01:54am PT
|
I did nothing but belay on the 2nd ascent;...Evans did some rad aid shenanagans, and Hensel was cool as a cucumber on the Muir Trail. Craig Fry, Margie Floyd (Evans), Dave Evans, Hensel, and myself were on the 2nd ascent. We all did the Muir Trail no falls;....which is no big deal for myself, Margie, Craig, and Dave;...a big deal for Hensel for he was leading;....not a pitch you want to fall on while leading. If Ricky says add a bolt or two;..go for it. As it is now, it probably can't be lead without a bigass cheater-stick with a hook on it, or a few more bolts. Even if Ricky adds a few bolts;..the thing will still be full blow manic;....it won't be a trade route or a walk in the park;....but at least some motivated and talented climbers can give it a try. Go for it!
|
|
neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 11:56am PT
|
Bump for more discussion...
|
|
Anxious Melancholy
Mountain climber
Between the Depths of Despair & Heights of Folly
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 12:51pm PT
|
First, I could never climb this route, nor anything even close to something that difficult. I have, however, climbed at T/S for over 30 years.
Although I don’t think my opinion’s worth a damn, you did ask:
Adding bolts to make the route more accessible would be a mistake. There’s plenty of rock, and this is a prime example of a really unique route. Why dumb it down to some common denominator? Why not let it maintain its current flavor? As you've shown, if people really want to do it and are not up to the high standards required, they can top rope it.
And contrary to what I just wrote, and as an alternative to aid bolts for the missing hook flake(s), might you consider some holes for bat hooks? I know that this alters the route from its original ascent conditions, but perhaps it would still mimic it closely?
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 01:41pm PT
|
Bat hooks would work;......if the flakes to hook are gone;....do what Dave Evans did on the 2nd ascent;.....bring up a 10' pole with a sky hook duct taped to the end of it, attatched to 2 sets of aiders tied together....go for a blind hook placement (That actually wasn't all that great).....tug on it a few times;...then climb up two sets of aiders to check out your hook placement;...all off of some dicey aid placements below......then start some dicey 5.10 free climbing off a suspect 1/4" bolt.......some fairly rad stuff;.....but do-able if you have the sac and skills to do this sort of thing.....
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 01:48pm PT
|
Add bolts will travel.
|
|
BruceAnderson
Social climber
Los Angeles currently St. Antonin, France
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 02:19pm PT
|
I just have to say after having cut my teeth at Tahquitz some 25 years ago, and currently climbing 12+/13- sport routes over here in europe, those hard routes at Lily Rock still make me cringe. Guys like Hensel deserve so much respect.
|
|
pile
Trad climber
jail
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 02:34pm PT
|
great commentary...
I want to know if the key hooking section can still be done. Yes, routes have been 'killed' when a key hold/flake/whatever breaks off, rendering the route improbable if not impossible. Example, right across the valley, bukatude. key hold broke, the line was ressurected via start from the left w a bolt added...
|
|
Bread
Trad climber
Craggy Mountains, NC
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
|
What is a "museum climb"?
|
|
pile
Trad climber
jail
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 02:42pm PT
|
Man! The FA tale, along with the story of the 2nd ascent party doing the super long cheater stick aiding blindly is the kinda stuff that makes routes like this what it is
Again, I say its Mr. Accomazzo, Mr. Muir, and Mr. Cole's call, and I think in this case, the only other voices that carry weight are those of the 2nd ascent team.
The warbler has a good idea w the traverse in or pendi In, i like that idea as well. I respect these opinions
Good stuff here, love talking about places that I love so much
|
|
henny
Social climber
The Past
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
|
JL, did you intentionally word your post like that? Why am I suspicious?
Add bolts will travel as in the added bolts will result in the FC being travelled more frequently?
Or
Add bolts will travel as in the precedence of adding bolts will subsequently travel onto other routes where it is not acceptable?
|
|
neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 02:52pm PT
|
^^^ I was hoping it meant JL would come down and give it a try...
|
|
dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 03:12pm PT
|
It's the FA team's call.
If we were voting, I would vote to leave it be. As Mr. Gordon said, it is doable as it sits now.
|
|
looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 03:24pm PT
|
It appears that Rick has proposed two separate issues here:
1. Adding a bolt to the first aid pitch to bypass (or protect) a possibly unusable hook placement.
Apparently the 2nd Ascent team didn't need the placement, showing some imagination (and guts).
The bolt would significantly change the character of the aid climbing (make it less serious).
Good or Bad?
2. Doubling the last bolt on the 1st pitch and making it an belay.
This makes the second pitch lead somewhat less serious (lowering the fall factor among other things) by providing more rope out, rather than falling onto the belay.
This seems a less intrusive "fix" than adding a 3rd bolt (off right and up a bit) to the existing belay -- the other alternative.
Will either of these remove this climb from "museum" status? Difficult to say, but there might be a few more ascents in the future, but not many. This isn't going to open the route to the masses, and the thing will still scare me.
If Rick, Rob and CC3 are OK with it, it is really their call.
|
|
dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 03:32pm PT
|
I doubt Charles would ever endorse modifying the route, but, I could be wrong.
Plus, if folks want to do the Muir Trail they can, as Rick and friends proved.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2012 - 04:34pm PT
|
Will someone please private message me with Charles' email and phone?
Rick
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 10:48pm PT
|
Wow. This is an excellent topic, ideally suited to the ST Forum!
I've got a tri-tip on the bar bee, I should be doing report cards, and this is all swirling in my head. Well done, Ricky!
This is a bold and delicious route. It demands a lot, and it yields outstanding rewards. The aid is truly brilliant. Rick didn't mention the killer moves from the top of the aid to the belay--which Rick led, and I think is technically the crux. Combined with the Muir Trail (RA's clever pun), the Flying Circus is smack in the middle of some of the finest granite on the planet.
Darrell and I had a good discussion about the Muir Trail a while back, and we each clearly remembered every move and every hold. It is a unique bond, forged by shared uncertainty, doubt, courage, and discovery.
I agree: What is a museum route?
This rambling is just a bit of bumpage to help keep this on the "front page"--so to speak. Let's get Charles involved, Ricky. I need time to reflect on this...
|
|
j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 11:17pm PT
|
I agree: What is a museum route?
Flying Circus may be the ultimate “museum climb” at Tahquitz. A museum climb is one usually only read about in the guide book and looked at, but hardly ever climbed.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - May 29, 2012 - 11:52pm PT
|
A couple more photos:
For perspective,looking up at the Open Book, you can see from left to right:
Turboflange/Edge, Open Book, Zig Zag, Mechanics Route,and Green Arch. Just around the corner a bit to the right of the arete on the far right of the photo is Flying Circus.
Looking down from the belay on the existing second pitch. John is hanging on the bolt below the belay. Below that out of sight to the left is the last aid bolt and the crux free climbing section that Rob mentions is between that aid bolt and the one John is on.
High step on the Muir Trail. I didn't fall on the top rope, but it was a close run thing this time.
Thanks, everyone, for the comments so far.
|
|
Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
|
|
|
May 29, 2012 - 11:56pm PT
|
Surely it would be OK to replace old bolts with modern ones, one for one? And while doing so (from rappel, probably), closely examine the route in case there have been physical changes that affect whether/how it can be climbed. Those who did the FA can then natter about what if anything ought to be done.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
|
May 30, 2012 - 12:10am PT
|
M.H....the old bolts already have been replaced (reciently) with new ones.....
|
|
pile
Trad climber
jail
|
|
|
May 30, 2012 - 03:16pm PT
|
bumping this back to the top
Thanks for chiming in Mr. Muir
|
|
Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
|
|
|
May 31, 2012 - 11:37am PT
|
My thoughts about FC would be to enhance one hook placement rather than add a bolt as both ways will alter the rock. This would at least keep the route as close to the original FA look and feel. I've been up on the route four days now, originally trying to free climb and then attempting to aid thru the first hooking section. I do believe the free climbing could start at the first aid bolt at hard 5.12. This is a phenomenal route and I will not do anything without some consensus.
|
|
neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
|
|
|
May 31, 2012 - 11:49am PT
|
Bump
|
|
henny
Social climber
The Past
|
|
|
May 31, 2012 - 02:39pm PT
|
Nice picture Johnny.
For the sake of argument let's consider a hypothetical case. Let's say that the Muir Trail had a single key hold at the very end of the runout. A hold so critical that it's absence would turn it virtually impossible to do. The hold breaks off. Would we then chip a new hold to replace it? What would more likely happen is that a bolt would be added, given the fall size and that there is a difference between a 10+ move and a move where - if it even goes at all - it is virtually guaranteed that no matter how bold or good one is there will be repeated massive flying lessons. Even then, there might be a select few who could pull the trigger without added pro. Free climbing doesn't accept medium alteration, instead it asks one to step the game up to the new level of difficulty.
Why should aid be allowed to modify the medium when free can't? No one would approve of chipping a free hold, why allow it for aid? Free climbers would go berserk if that was done to the Muir Trail. Aid climbers ought to feel the same way about the first pitch. Yeah, I know, with free climbing the distinction between alteration for pro and climbing is obvious. With aid the pro is the climbing so it's a little more messy.
Ricky stated that he might have seen the placement he used, but wasn't sure. It seems we need to know for sure the placement is gone and has no alternatives. The move has been tried on TR without success, is one person good enough? If it is, then I say either force a cheater stick to be used (not very desirable IMO), or put a REAL piece of metal in it like Ricky suggested, thus looking forward to, and facilitating, future free attempts. If the hook move can still be done but makes the aid harder, so be it, leave it alone. Just like we would if a free hold broke off. Some routes just aren't going to get done much because they're really hard to do. That is not a bad thing.
Regarding moving the belay. I thought I knew what I thought, but now think that I may have thought wrong. hehe. So I reconsider. I don't like long falls onto belays and feel they should be avoided when they can be. When its 1/4" bolts it becomes even more suspect. But now the bolts are modern fatties. Even though I still don't like the idea of long falls onto the belay the bolts should be able to handle it better now. Unfortunately, moving the belay would affect both pitches, it can't help but do so. So I guess after all I'm inclined to say leave it even though I initially liked the idea. BUT - either way, you knuckleheads, don't do something like that again, it scares people when they worry about the belay plus the runout. Go ahead and run it monster, just not right off the belay (please).
Just my 2 cents worth, feel free to debate it.
The Flying Circus is a masterpiece. It would be a shame if it was restored beyond what it truely needs. I like to think that if the FC is a museum piece, its a pricessless work (the likes of which only rarely ever occur) in some fine art museum. There are different types of museums, and some of them serve to protect what is pricessless while still allowing the public to experience it.
Egads, I hate that museum piece to climb correlation, it doesn't work for me.
|
|
Johannsolo
climber
Soul Cal
|
|
|
May 31, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
|
I don't agree with your comparison to a free climb. Aid routes, with the exception of clean aid, almost always result in some damage to the rock, by pounding in pins, copperheads or even hooks that break off edges. Also, many established aid routes have bat hook holes and other forms of enhanced hook placements. I would like to see as little damage and alteration to the rock as possible which would not involve drilling a bolt and creating a A0 move.
|
|
henny
Social climber
The Past
|
|
|
May 31, 2012 - 06:54pm PT
|
Don't the options of an empty hole or enhanced hook also run the risk of blowing out themselves in the future? Which would put us right back where we are now.
How good should the enhanced hook be made? Slippery slope.
I did state that alteration becomes a messy wicket when aid is involved. Certainly agreed, if the aid isn't clean it is in and of itself an alteration for any ascent. To that extent, I have to agree with you that the comparison breaks down somewhat. Damage as a side effect of the placement may be unavoidable, it just seems different when in an effort to even make a placement in the first place.
Just free the darn thing and the problem goes away.
What would it take for acceptable free pro? No new bolts? A bolt at the placement? Would the pitch require an additional bolt elsewhere?
|
|
mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
|
|
|
May 31, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
|
Leave it alone.
A 2 pitch aid line, that won't go free deserves a spot in the museum.
Enhance this, bolt that, give the free climbers a better shot?
Twisted logic for a route with 2 ascents.
Keep turning that wheel.....
|
|
looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
|
|
|
May 31, 2012 - 08:04pm PT
|
Since a cheater stick apparently works for aiding past the hook move in question, nothing really needs to be done.
But, if somehow now you can't cheat past, it suggests the next hook move is gone too. A bat hook hole down low won't solve that problem will it?
If the idea is to make it safer as an aid climb (with the subtext as future possible free protection) add the bolt and be done with it.
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 1, 2012 - 10:01am PT
|
Kevin-I don’t think there is much chance of getting into the start of the free climbing on FC from Green Arch. It’s actually quite a ways away at that point, and very steep and smooth there, despite the fact that the routes converge higher up. There is an existing free route that traverses into Flying Circus after the aid section, but from the right: Gib Lewis and Charles Cole’s New Wave, rated 5.12 (X). See this thread for Gib's account of the first ascent:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/1690295/New-Wave-5-12-X-at-Tahquitz-Repeated
John has scouted New Wave from above and there is still an original 1/4” bolt on it that needs replacing. John was very impressed with the moves Gib did on the lead, telling me that he thought that Gib must have tension traversed or pendulumned the sideways crux. This indicated to me that he thought the moves were ridiculous. I assured him that Gib, a meticulous rocket scientist, is as honest as Abe Lincoln and would never exaggerate on this. If Randy is ok with scanning the topo from his guidebook, I’ll post it and you’ll see how the routes connect.
The problem with New Wave traversing in from the right is that it is even more of a museum climb than Flying Circus, having never been repeated since its first ascent in 1983, and it is even less likely that anyone will use it to access the easier Flying Circus free climbing. The link up of New Wave to FC has yet to be done; in my opinion, one of the last, great problems at Tahquitz.
Rob mentions the crux free moves at the end of the aid on the first pitch. This section was a puzzle on the first ascent for me and I blew off it a several times leading. Charles caught a photo of me mid air and the picture made it into the Chouinard Catalog that year. Because I fell off while balancing up on the mantle, I fell backwards making for some picturesque air between me and the rock , even though the wall is less than vertical at that point.
I found this section not as hard as I remembered it on the top rope and didn’t fall this time, just as Rob didn’t fall on the top rope during the first ascent. John found a way to do it without mantling and I was able to get it both with and without the mantle.
On the second question of whether to rearrange the belays, I am now leaning against that option. The reason is that even the relocated belay would still require doing the technical crux moves right off the belay, albeit with a shorter fall potential than on the Muir Trail. There would still a lot of force on the rope and the belay because of how little rope would be out.
The solution is revealed in the picture of John hanging from the bolt below the existing belay. When the next person leads this, I would suggest lowering the belayer to the bolt below the two bolt station and setting up the belay there. This would mean that the belay would be securely attached to three good bolts and a good length of rope would be out in the event of a false step at the end of the run out on the Muir Trail.
On the issue of adding the bolt to the hooking section, I am against creating a new hook placement with a chisel. I agree with Henny that adding the bolt is better. Another reason for adding the bolt is that if one could free climb past this blank section, John has figured out a way to free climb straight up past the first bolt, ignoring the hooking traverse right. So there is potential to create an entirely free route.
There is really just a short section to free and I think it would be not much of a loss to sacrifice an A4 hooking section that nobody ever does to possibly gain a new free pitch. And if someone really wants to do that hook move after the bolt is in, he or she can still do it with bolt protection.
|
|
Skeptimistic
Mountain climber
La Mancha
|
|
Perfect use of the taco. My vote is to let the FAs make the call. If I was the FA, I would be inclined to let it stand because technology has improved greatly since then, thereby lowering the difficulty, missing flake notwithstanding. Who knows what future developments will help even more?
Beefing up the belay seems reasonable to reduce the chances of a anchor blowout.
Gotta go - I'm spending all day in the gym so I can redpoint White Maiden this weekend...
|
|
justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
|
|
This is a great use of the Taco. BTW I'll give this some of my (worthless) thoughts.
When I first started out climbing I could never understand the existence of "death-routes". It seemed logical that a FAist would want other people to climb their route and experience it, so why not retrobolt your route that is really good and eliminate the R/X rating that is going to scare everyone off it? There's certainly a few gems out there that are really stellar, but so runout no-one climbs them and that is a shame. I can think of a couple I would love to see a bolt or two added to if I had a say.
As I got older and I've read dozens of amazing FA stories about iconic routes... I've changed my tune a bit. I've come to realize that some routes stand as a singular expression of an exact moment in time. A stroke of the artist's brush as you will, and those canvases end up in the "museum". Like Henny said: "Some routes just aren't going to get done much because they're really hard to do. That is not a bad thing.". Not every route needs to be repeated or made more accessible.
In the end it is your decision Rick. It's your canvas. It seems like you regret that other people haven't climbed it more. If that is the case I agree with Randy. Add a bolt, beef up the belays and be done with it. In my mind I prefer the romance of looking up at it as it stands and picturing that day back in 1978 when the hook placement held.
People will support whatever decision you make.
|
|
looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Latitute 33
|
|
Rick,
Feel free to post the topo.
My two cents worth would be to add a 3rd bolt to the belay. The leader could clip into it, Though it would not really shorten any leader fall, it would make the belay more secure and perhaps lessen the fall factor. No one will complain about a beefy belay anchor.
|
|
caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
|
|
I'd venture that not many climbers have much of an interest in doing routes that have short aid sections unless they are trying to free them. A free route that has 10 feet of hard hooking breaking up free climbing has no appeal for me. Plenty of other great routes out there w/o the jingus.
|
|
dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
|
|
I don't understand why anything needs be done to modify the route. As it is, the aid can be ascended and the Muir Trail can be ascended.
Any change at all will ruin a "last great problem" for future generations. What about 20 years from now when climbers, who are WAY better than any of us ever was, come along? Modifications will cheat them of their chance to make a bold statement. Who knows what will be possible 20, 30, 50 years from now?
Why, here in 2012, is it so important to "fix" it?
Ricky, why is this so important to you? I don't get it at all.
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
Just as cams and sticky rubber came about, this route might get done with zero gravity belts and suction cup gloves.
I wasn't alive when any of these things happen, but I would like to think that there are impossible climbs, that there are things that are unsolved, to be solved. If anyone knows the limits of holdless climbing its Henny and Rick A, but how many times did people do Jaws at Woodson before Dan Beal finished the impossi-hard problem 4 feet away from it?
I like to think the inexperience and short perspective of my youth might be a good thing here. One could always rap into Muir Trail, it's done often in the valley isn't it? Isn't it just a quirk that we start climbs on the bottom? If we are being totally objective than great climbing is great climbing, whether or not the approach to it is a junky 5.7 chimney, a 4th class ledge, bullshit death Aid or a rappel? What are you looking to get out of it? I think a lot of the argument to add bolts is because people want to tick the whole route. I really get that concept, I mean heck I used to collect baseball cards and the East Butt of middle gets more laps than other similarly high quality routes because of the cache of the 'tick.' I just see that idea creeping up sometimes and ask myself how tangible that satisfaction can be (for me, sometimes strong!).
Will it get climbed if you add a bolt? Maybe. But people aren't up there aid climbing, at least not that often. If the impetus to add a bolt is because the free climbing is wonderful and the aid is just a necessary evil, shouldn't you just rap to it? Just curious, I'm a dumb kid :)
|
|
BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
|
|
The problem with New Wave traversing in from the right is that it is even more of a museum climb than Flying Circus, having never been repeated since its first ascent in 1983, and it is even less likely that anyone will use it to access the easier Flying Circus free climbing. The link up of New Wave to FC has yet to be done; in my opinion, one of the last, great problems at Tahquitz.
Hi Rick:
That section of the rock I always found intriguing. Originally, there was a fixed nut on New Wave between the first and second bolt, although as I recall it looked pretty manky, and if you blew off the 5.12 crux you'd hit the deck and probably bust your ankles....not the type of climb that people line up for on the weekends!
I went there with Dave Mayville in 1999 and we set up a toprope just to see what was up with the New Wave. We discovered a great direct start (which we named Mavericks) that climbs through the big overhang to New Wave's second bolt. This route is listed in the 2001 guidebook.
I went back in 2001 with Frank Bentwood and I led it (with 2 new bolts on the overhang). This is a suberb, albeit short, high quality pitch with some stout pulls over the overhang, then some delicated smearing/slab climbing on the traverse. It's actually scarier for the follower than the leader, since you actually climb down a bit at the third bolt.
A couple years later I went back and added a second pitch, which is a nice link-up into Flying Circus. Instead of traversing left to the 5.11d mantle on Flying Circus, it goes more or less straight up from the belay past 2 bolts, then makes a very delicate, tip-toe traverse left to the last bolt on pitch 1 of Flying Circus. From here it's about 5.9 up to the belay. This pitch is probably 5.11a/b, and very high quality- plus, if you're up for it, you can take it right into pitch 2 of Flying Circus!
Bob Gaines
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 2, 2012 - 11:11am PT
|
Bob-Thanks much for that explanation; it really moves the discussion forward. John and I knew of Mavericks from the guide but the rest of the bolts to the right of Flying Circus that we could see from rappel were a mystery. You're right, it's really great rock there, including your routes and the classic Unchaste up higher.
It looks like the Mavericks route is the most logical way to approach Flying Circus and avoid the hooking section.
On New Wave, you say that Gib's number 3 stopper placement after the first bolt was fixed when you saw it. Gib thought that this protected that section pretty well. Do you think the placement is still there or did that flake fall off? Regardless, it looks like the only part of New Wave not repeated is that section from the first to the second bolt.
Dave-You asked what's so important about considering whether to add a bolt now. The answer is it's that not important at all. The thread was prompted by John's interest in freeing the route and our fortuitous opportunity to climb together a couple of weeks ago.
I was pretty enthused about the great sequence of moves when I got to top rope them after all these years and I thought it unfortunate that more people don't get to experience that. The best part of this discussion so far is that it prompted Gaines to describe his routes which are not in the guidebook and do allow reasonable free climbing access to FC, and all protected reasonably now by modern bolts.
Bob-What is the variation that goes left from the Flying Circus hanging belay? There are two bolts heading left up a little crack in the direction of the top of the Green Arch. I presume this is one of your routes?
|
|
BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
|
|
Bob-What is the variation that goes left from the Flying Circus hanging belay? There are two bolts heading left up a little crack in the direction of the top of the Green Arch. I presume this is one of your routes?
Yep, another variation done long ago (5.12-)
|
|
BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
|
|
On New Wave, you say that Gib's number 3 stopper placement after the first bolt was fixed when you saw it. Gib thought that this protected that section pretty well. Do you think the placement is still there or did that flake fall off? Regardless, it looks like the only part of New Wave not repeated is that section from the first to the second bolt.
Start of New Wave
Old 1/4 inch bolt is on the right, corroded SMC death hanger and all.
Arrow points to the "flake" where the nut was. Looks like it might have broken off? Not sure.
|
|
tarek
climber
berkeley
|
|
A treat to read this detailed discussion, written with care, about actual climbing. Sure the bottom section won't go at 14d from the ground? That's all I would add--some context about modern grades, yes in this style of climbing.
|
|
dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
|
|
From John,
"I don't agree with your comparison to a free climb. Aid routes, with the exception of clean aid, almost always result in some damage to the rock, by pounding in pins, copperheads or even hooks that break off edges. Also, many established aid routes have bat hook holes and other forms of enhanced hook placements. I would like to see as little damage and alteration to the rock as possible which would not involve drilling a bolt and creating a A0 move."
Free climbs with bolts also damage the rock and adding bolts to free climbs with bolts increases the damage.
|
|
SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
|
|
Pretty incredible, Rick!
Thanks for sharing!!!!
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
From my perspective as a member of the FA team, I think that Bob has settled the question in my mind. Flying Circus should have no additional bolts added to the aid section, and future generations can have the rock preserved for later shenanigans. We did the aid, as we did the free climbing, from the ground up. (And, no, that is not an arbitrary choice. Our sport was predicated on the notion of climbing, not rapping down.)
I don't condone adding any bolts to FC, nor do I believe we need to beef-up the belay. Replacing the 1/4" with modern hardware should handle it, and if you're worried about a fall directly onto the belay, you could drop down a bolt or two and belay from there—as Ricky suggested.
Every old bolt has been replaced. Thanks to John for removing the added bolt on the second pitch, thus preserving the Muir Trail. So the museum route remains as it ought! The route stands. And it is still waiting for the "tigers" to match the works of these "toothless old tykes of tomorrow."
You can rap onto it, if you choose. Top-rope it if you must. (Though you'll forever deprive yourself of the real route. And we'll agree that you cheated.) Or follow Bob Gaines' routes to avoid the aid.
So, Bob, did you (or anyone else in your parties) lead the best parts of Flying Circus? Or does all that gorgeous rock still have only two ascents done on-sight and without prior inspection? The Game is best played by keeping the rules rigorous.
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
On the fun and easy section of Flying Circus leading up to the aid during the 1978 FA...
Notice the period-correct 9mm double-rope technique—a Stonemaster British affectation which a bunch of us acquired after our first few European seasons.
|
|
Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
|
|
Dave, I thought your remark that "The Future is Now" said a lot on many levels...and I fully agree!
I could write a book here, but I'll shut up for once and defer to the masters.
|
|
BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
|
|
. So, Bob, did you (or anyone else in your parties) lead the best parts of Flying Circus? Or does all that gorgeous rock still have only two ascents done on-sight and without prior inspection? The Game is best played by keeping the rules rigorous.
Hi Rob, I never had the balls to lead the Muir Trail, but I've toproped it, and I've toproped the free climbing part at the top of Flying Circus' first pitch. As to whether or not the original route has had a third ascent, I can't really say, but there are a lot of great climbers out there, and not all of them report their climbs to supertopo or internet forums.
Thanks to John for removing the added bolt on the second pitch, thus preserving the Muir Trail. So the museum route remains as it ought!
I wasn't aware of any bolt ever being added to that pitch? Hope he didn't inadvertently chop the bolt on The Powell variation to The Unchaste which was up and right from the Muir Trail bolt, and placed by Mark Powell in 1964 and replaced by yours truly sometime in the 90's. The 2001 guidebook shows the Muir Trail going to that bolt (which would make it 2 bolts total on that pitch) but maybe you just went straight up and avoided it? I know it might be tough to remember, 30+ years ago!
What you did back then, in EBs no less, was state of the art, and inspirational to me as a young climber. I remember reading the write-up and seeing that photo of you on the Muir Trail in Mountain magazine. Those were the days!
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2012 - 12:35pm PT
|
Found some more photos:
Charles leading the rising, traversing hook section from the first bolt to the second bolt. This was an outstanding effort to hook across that smooth part and get the second bolt in.
Rob jugging up to follow the free part of the first pitch and lead the second. He is approaching the second bolt that Charles placed.
|
|
dee ee
Mountain climber
citizen of planet Earth
|
|
Yay Robs! I enjoyed your comment and the quote "toothless old tykes of tomorrow." Was that Tom Patey?
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 9, 2012 - 05:14pm PT
|
The following helps to illustrate what we have been talking about.
The "R" is the approximate location of the fixed Rurp.
The circle is the area of the critical hook move and where I was originally thinking about adding a bolt. If Rob's against it, however, that is the end of discussion for me.
The arrow is the red horn that can be securely hooked.
The "x" is the first bolt (last of the old bolts and now replaced).
The dotted line is the traverse from the right on New Wave.
The upper arrow is the approximate line of the Muir Trail.
Bob-The bolt that was removed was just a third bolt at the belay for the the Muir Trail pitch. There are now two modern bolts, in the same holes as the original 1/4 inch bolts.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
Rick- Check your email for CC3's contact info.
His voice should help steer this discussion.
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
Yes, of course, Dave. ...the poet laureate of British climbing...
Live it up, fill your cup, drown your sorrow
And sow your wild oats while ye may
For the toothless old tykes of tomorrow
Were the Tigers of Yesterday.
--The Last of the Grand Old Masters, Tom Patey
I, too, would like to hear from Charles. While we have a quorum, CCIII needs to chime in here!
Kudos to you, Mr. Gaines. Your prolific FAs in both JT and around Idyllwild have been an inspiration to me and my buds for a very long time. The beta for the bolts to the right side of FC is excellent!
Thanks for posting all those pictures, Rick. Got any more?
Here's the photo that was used in that Mountain Magazine blurb:
A short time later:
|
|
Rick A
climber
Boulder, Colorado
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 10, 2012 - 11:24am PT
|
That's a perfect example of Type II fun. Very enjoyable, in retrospect.
I was able to pull in some rope with the trusty hip belay and shorten the fall a bit. Probably not possible with today's belay devices. I remember that when you stopped you were less far below me than I anticipated.
Funny how your white bell bottoms caught air on the way down which pulled them skywards so they look like knickers! Probably slowed you down a bit, like tiny drogue parachutes.
I remember that the foothold you used to drill the bolt could be made out, vaguely, from the belay if you leaned way out. It was clear that the only way up was to get to that hold somehow. After you fell, I offered to try it, but you refused to relinquish the lead, composed yourself at the belay for a few minutes and then went right back up. When you got the bolt in, it was a relief to know that the project, which took a lot of effort and time, would be completed that day.
I found the last, step-across move not that technically hard this time, but what I had forgotten was how sustained it was to get there. You are not pumped in the normal sense, but your feet and fingers are very tired at that point from the consistent, hard edging
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
|
Jun 10, 2012 - 07:09pm PT
|
Nowadays, I usually roll up those comfortable Stonemaster® pants to the knee. I may have to rethink that now... <g>
|
|
henny
Social climber
The Past
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2012 - 01:55am PT
|
I was able to pull in some rope with the trusty hip belay and shorten the fall a bit. Probably not possible with today's belay devices.
How long did you have to work on that to get the words "trusty" and "hip belay" together in the same sentence? (Just kidding Ricky, just kidding)
You're right, probably can't reel it in like you could/can with a hip belay. Still, I just can't seem to bring myself to miss those hip belay days.
Very cool that you guys have all those pictures around from the FA. So often there are none. They certainly lend much to this thread. Thanks for posting them.
The replacement of the bolts was by far the most importanat thing that needed to be done to make the route doable again. Probably enough in and of itself. If a bolt needs to be added to P1 for free climbing in the future, let it be done then.
|
|
neversummer
Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2012 - 11:10am PT
|
Thanks to all for the photos ...
|
|
tarek
climber
berkeley
|
|
|
Jun 11, 2012 - 11:13am PT
|
Wow, this keeps getting better. Thanks.
|
|
rmuir
Social climber
From the Time Before the Rocks Cooled.
|
|
|
Jun 13, 2012 - 07:17pm PT
|
One good fall deserves another... Rick Accomazzo on (and off) the crux free moves on the first pitch.
Drogue chutes come in all different colors.
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2012 - 11:59am PT
|
You stud muffins got some frequent flyer miles on this puppy! LOL
|
|
Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Jun 20, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
|
Why are those FAers wrong about EVERYTHING???
|
|
| Messages 1 - 66 of total 66 in this topic |
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!