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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 16, 2012 - 09:54am PT
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scrolling the internet doesnt make you an expert ron,
i suggest a lovely trip to nepal for you and anyone who has not been.
be with some different people.go for a proper trek before you die.
perhaps aqquire a more worldly view on life.drink some tea.
stay with a sherpa family for a while. climb a small mountain. live.
give us a trip report.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 16, 2012 - 10:22am PT
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dear ron im just suggesting that a paltry sum is all thats required to go.
you might just find someone to laugh with! of course you dont have to bring your gun
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 16, 2012 - 10:42am PT
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Nice photos!
As for Everest being a walk up, not exactly. Unless you've ever been above 18,000 feet (the Himalayan snowline), you don't know the difficulty even with modern gear and support systems. Part of the reason so many die is because of the changing conditions, not just their inexperience. Some very big name climbers have died up there too, so I think anyone who makes it to the top deserves some respect even if they never could have done it without all the support.
As for whether the volume trade should be allowed to go to Everest, the Sherpas would definitely say yes. They have gone from some of the poorest people in the world to upper middle class by Nepalese standards in two generations thanks to mass mountaineering in the Himalayas. Many of them also died while farming and herding in those mountains before mountaineering, and with no insurance.
I do think Russel Bryce canceling his expedition will have massive repercussions on safety in the future. Now that the barrier has been broken, others will follow suit. The clients will scream that the Sherpas aren't what they used to be and that will be true. They are becoming more like the guides in the Alpes every season.
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jstan
climber
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May 16, 2012 - 11:19am PT
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The technology for cleaning off the bodies exists. All the Nepalese need do is stop issuing permits for parties at $70,000 each, and instead issue $10,000 permits per individual also requiring a (pick a number) $10,000 refundable deposit to pay for removal should it be needed. Time of removal unspecified. When you consider the cost of guided climbs at $65,000 each, it isn't even that big a change for the guidee. The cost of administering the program might even be undertaken by the embassy for the country from which the client comes. The deposit would be a transaction taking place at the time a visa is negotiated.
There would not even have to be a support installation at base camp. The skycrane flies in with ten tons of fuel in a tank. Set the tank down, load say six Nepalese and place two with a cargo sling at each of three designated collection points. (I have seen a film showing how these guys can work at altitude. Like us at 10,000 feet! If the chopper has to fight to get to altitude only once, each team could be placed at two or more sites in a day. Waiting for a day of good weather is the only unknown.
When the guidee makes the $10,000 removal deposit they have to sign their agreement as to the method of removal, in the unlikely event it becomes necessary. Job done. This fee would be higher at the start so as to cover the cost of working off the present load of bodies.
Climbers do a lot of waiting at base camp. When it comes time for the dropped cargo slings to be gathered up for airlifting out, hire them to do the gathering. An preview of what they want to climb into.
Where's the hole in this? Jim?
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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May 16, 2012 - 11:26am PT
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Somehow I can't get emotionally envolved in the Everest rat race, guiding scene and the attendent mortality issues of bringing barely qualified people into the "death zone." The motives for most of the "clients" are far removed from the reasons that have kept me actively exploring the mountains for nearly 50 years. The motives of the guides are quite clear and not very laudable.
Alex Lowe told me, after he had led two successful trips to Everest, that he decided to quit guiding the mountain because he felt the margin of saftey insufficient. This was the year before the Scott Fisher et al tragedy.
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TwistedCrank
climber
Dingleberry Gulch, Ideeho
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May 16, 2012 - 11:39am PT
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Conrad has posted here that the Everest rat race is part of the "climbing scene". I assume that includes the bodies.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
merced, california
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May 16, 2012 - 01:21pm PT
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Q231: Who or what mule is next? I guarantee its not I, and I hope it's not you.
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Jeff Rhoads
climber
UT
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May 16, 2012 - 04:45pm PT
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This is for Ron,
It is so easy to rant and rave about people you say were Hauled up Everest and don't belong there. All the normal people like Mailmen,Dentist & Etc. Who made you Overlord of who should climb anything!! Doesn't anyone have the right and hope to stand on the highest point on earth. Or to climb for a lofty goal & the joy of Mountains and climbing.
Plus Everest is NOT the biggest open Dump in the world. Have you been there??? They have come a long way into cleaning & making climbing teams clean up the Mtn. Maybe the Chinese side is a pit. Talk to them.
Sure it takes money to climb Everest, K2, Denali, The Matterhorn but give me a break. As for your attack on Sandy. She wasn't Hauled up and she had already been to Everest before, THE EAST FACE as an experienced climber. Just because she has money, does that make her a less experienced climber?
Get over your vile, bitter put down of other people because of there place in society.
Now I'm over my rant & rave so apologize to Sandy publicily and go climb something to clear your head. I'm going to.
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Jeff Rhoads
climber
UT
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May 16, 2012 - 05:12pm PT
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Ron,
Sorry I'm late. I got the posting through email and had to let you know my thoughts. I'll try to keep up next time. As for drinking from below base camp, would you drink from below camp Muir on Rainer or the meadow water below the Grand Teton?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 16, 2012 - 06:38pm PT
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Ron A.. For a frothing at the mouth gun nut repuglican you sure are uninformed.. those troops are carrying the best bolt action infantry rifle ever made... And that ain't a mauser....
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 17, 2012 - 10:23pm PT
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It seems the next stage of corpse retrieval has begun by lowering people from helicopters
so that they can drill an anchor and chip a body free from the ice.
Once more all it takes is money.
Pics! Simone Moro's stunning sling operation
http://www.explorersweb.com/everest_k2/news.php?id=20846
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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May 17, 2012 - 10:53pm PT
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whose drinkin the water below carson city? no thanks,
ill stick with a drink below base camp and then perhaps some
local rakshi to counter.
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Tan Slacks
climber
Joshua Tree
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May 17, 2012 - 11:44pm PT
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I remember being over in Nepal in the 70's and thinking how heroic to be left where I lay,then I ran into Nick. As far as I know (and I don't know much) this was the first organized clean up in the Khumbu.
Leave the bodies, don't take pictures, but PICK UP THE TRASH!
my 2 cents
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Captain...or Skully
climber
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May 18, 2012 - 12:06am PT
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What's a Bleuet? Sounds like I should say Gesundheit, or some such.
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bmacd
Trad climber
100% Canadian
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May 18, 2012 - 12:58am PT
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That body extraction on Nuptse that Moro is doing. The family can't get a death certificate, and the person is listed as missing. The estate is hung up and the insurance company won't pay a death benefit.
Or something like that....
So I would say that the world needs more badass good hearted men like Simone Moro who are willing to stick their necks out like that to help a family bring closure to a tragedy. Apparently there was supposed to be two bodies in the tent. But wasn't.
Enough ill informed criticism being posted here.
Give it a rest.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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May 18, 2012 - 05:59am PT
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Roofing is way up there on the list of dangerous jobs...
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aguacaliente
climber
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May 18, 2012 - 06:31am PT
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A Bleuet is a stove, or a gas canister for a stove.
Here is a story about Simone Moro and his ethics and his rescue of a climber on Lhotse in 2001: http://www.k2news.com/climbers/lp9.htm Unfortunately it seems like this is the exception, or maybe it's that few people are strong enough to do what Moro did.
I can't speak to what motivates people to climb Everest as a tick-off but I think Donini's point deserves respect: that it's questionable to take the job that facilitates the tick-off. Many people do jobs that are questionable at times, this probably is far from the worst, but it's one that happens in climbing. I mean, we could sit around and talk about how bankers or oil bandits are worse, but that's not a climbing ethics/morals issue.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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May 18, 2012 - 06:31am PT
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I don't want to seem too picky here but a porter and a Sherpa /sherpa are two different entities. Porters don't die on the Everest trek because they never go above the snow line and there are teahouses right up to base camp.
Most sherpas by profession are Sherpas by ethnicity, also which causes some confusion. Only sherpas go onto the permanent glaciers. So far only men do this job although there have been Sherpa women and other Nepalese ethnicities who climbed to the top of Everest as expedition members. In that case you had sherpas working for Sherpani. Both sherpas and Sherpas/ Sherpani are well equipped. There are even factories making expedition down gear in Kathmandu now.
Porters can be any hill tribe ethnicity, including plenty of girls who lug those heavy baskets around. Some have died on treks in other parts of Nepal when caught out in a snowstorm above 15,000 feet, often just traversing a pass to get to a lower altitude. There is now an NGO in Kathmandu which rents out warm clothes and shoes to these porters to try to prevent that.
Since it is the poorest of the poor who work in unskilled trekking jobs of this sort, they often don't have or don't want to spend money on warm clothes and shoes. I always demanded that my porters at least had tennis shoes and tried them on in front of me so that I know they fit. They often preferred to trek barefoot below the snow so as not to wear their shoes out!
In the old days I used to always carry ziplock bags and nylon rope to tie around their feet if we got caught in snow. I had extra space blankets and a 2 man nylon tent which could be used as a bivouac sack for up to 6 porters. Amazingly, this was enough to prevent frostbite below the permanent snow line even in bad weather. Now days we can rent boots and tents.
Above the snow line, I always use Sherpas as sherpas, no porters!
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splitter
Trad climber
Hodad, surfing the galactic plane
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May 18, 2012 - 06:37am PT
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"Potentially lethal work happens everyday in order to provide just about everything humans use to secure themselves and their families."
Yes, that's true, Jim.
I guess I was saying just that, perhaps we all need to ask ourselves that question(where shall the line be drawn). In other words, it's a personal decision. That is why I was asking the question "Was it/is it worth the risk?" I believe it is in some instances. I do believe it is a worthy goal or pursuit. Even though I never had the desire to do it myself. And I do admire many, such as Sir Edmund Hillary and many others up to the current day, including the guides.
But I don't believe anyone would say it is worth a life. "It will cost us one life to pull this off." Many ascents, and entire seasons, don't require a life. But, inevitably, one will. That is just a fact.
I understand where you are coming from, what you are saying. And times change/have changed. There is more knowledge, skill(of guides, etc.)technological improvements in equipment, just to name a few changes in the past couple decades. This has made it all possible and in some ways, much safer.
And Guides have worked all their lives to get where they are. Plus, being a Sherpa/Porter is a way of life. Who would want to deny that to a people, a community? It is their livelihood and identity. It provides them (Sherpas & Porters) an increased standard of living and gives them a certain sense of self worth(i imagine). You could also apply these same values and attributes to the Guides. Who would want to, or be willing to, destroy all of that?
I just asked a difficult question. Primarily directed at the current crop of individual clients. I would hope that people would have good reasons to climb Everest. I don't know what is going on in peoples head. Hopefully no one would climb it to simply brag about it. I think if that really was the case, they wouldn't get very far on the Mountain, once the reality of simply putting one foot in front of the other became the hardest thing they had ever done and the most dangerous. Along with the added scenario of some 200+ and ever present reminders of how it could suddenly end up for them at any given moment.
Yes, so where do they(the client)draw the line when it comes to not only the risk to themselves, but to those who are making it possible for them to achieve their goal of climbing Everest(and returning)?
edit: I included/left Porters(here)because, although they are not at risk, they would be affected by decrease/increase of livelihood, the overall picture. But thanks for clearing that up Jan, I wasn't sure about the difference between the two and about their specific danger and how they are specifically utilized, etc.!
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