Cerro Torre, A Mountain Consecrated - The Resurrection of th

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
This thread has been locked
Messages 321 - 340 of total 1703 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Jan 22, 2012 - 01:23am PT
The fact of the matter is that it is quite a lot of people's business.
--

Lovegsolone, you missed the point on that rant of yours. I made no evaluation as to the merits of what the two climbers did. My point is that in the moment of actual doing, what you or I think about the Compresso route had nothing whatsoever to do with what the boys did up there. I have no doubt that many will try and MAKE it there businenss after the fact, but the fact has already marched past - should we like it or not is irrelevant, and is our issue, not theirs.

This is a great thing because it separates out the doers from the speculators and gives people a chance to rag on American aggression. It's called stirring the pot and has nothing to do with 70s revisionist history.

Lastly, I think the goal was to find a natural way up the route. Removing the bolts was a consequence of finding and doing the route, and was not the sole motivation.

Again, for better or worse, the people doing the really outrageous stuff out there are simply not checking in with us as to our opinions. Such independent and direct action will never change with the vanguard - of this we can be sure.

JL

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Jan 22, 2012 - 01:24am PT
We are killing our oceans, overpopulating the earth, destroying the rain forests, soiling our air, but thank goodness all will be right with the world now that Cerro Torre has been consecrated.

It is amazing how worked up people get over this.

I love Coz but, GET OVER IT!

I swear that if a guy was able to inflate a parachute on the ground, fly up into the air, go up high enough to then hop into an airplane, there would be skydiving purists who would invalidate the feat claiming he did it in the wrong direction!
fsck

climber
Jan 22, 2012 - 01:28am PT
all this fuss about
metal installed by motor
and a spiteful heart

now she emerges
from her pro bono facelift
"i liked the old her"

fsck

climber
Jan 22, 2012 - 01:50am PT
bella guglia
vestita di grigio
baci a freddo
Snorky

Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
Jan 22, 2012 - 02:07am PT
Did I accidentally hit the wrong button?
Kinobi

climber
Jan 22, 2012 - 02:13am PT
I have seen a lot of topics, some interesting one.

Somebody mentioned Huber on Cima Grande: I have no clue if he soloed it "on sight", but I would be surprised. He probably soloed it "after" he tried the route. I don't remember well, but there are compression bolts placed by first climbers, and 4 bolts added by people who freed the first time the route, and he was Kurt Albert. So, if the guys on Torre were cleaning the bolts "on sight" and going up without clipping them, it would have been definitely "better".

Maestri showed no respect of Torre and climbing community. End of discussion.
In his previous attempt on Torre (an I not referring to '59) he went significantly up by very fairs means with very few protections.
He went back with a compressor and drilled a bunch of bolts. He got what technology offered him at that time. I am not that surprised in what he did at that time, with the "enviromental" knowledge of that time. Findings of massive dumpings on glaciers everywhere of trash, are common everywhere for example...But using technology, the best available, is "common" in mountains. I remember Alex Lowe, Jared Ogden, and Mark Synnott on Trango's using electric drill to place bolts-in at belays for example. So, I am sure, if Maestri had an electric drill, he would have used it instead of bringing up a piece of metal which was a huge task itself.

Finally, may be repeating it once more: I feel two kids have no rights to decide for a climbing community in a foreign land. And everybody should condemn them, for doing that. They probably should be sent to restore what they did (unpaid).

Best,
E
fsck

climber
Jan 22, 2012 - 02:27am PT
goddamn kids these days
they don't ask for permission
they just grab the keys

they've been out all night
crawling up cracks to the top
picking up garbage
Snorky

Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
Jan 22, 2012 - 02:39am PT
Hey, I'm just curious...

Were those bolts likely to still be safe? They don't look very stout, must have come out quite easily, and were getting on in years. They actually are just drilled pitons. Does anyone know the effective lifespan of such hardware in that environment, with all that extremo freeze/thaw? Furthermore, is there an organization equivalent to the ASCA down there, that replaces bad bolts on historic routes? How would the community have reacted to the Compressor Route eventually being retrofitted with modern bolts?
New Age II

climber
Jan 22, 2012 - 02:45am PT
You will get to replace the bolts with new material next year .....
Kinobi

climber
Jan 22, 2012 - 02:47am PT
Snorky: they are called "compression bolts" but we call them "impression bolts" in Dolomiti
Which means, yes, they are drilled rounded metal roads that, after +40 years "impress you" every time you clip them or you pull'em.

They are as safe as a 2.5 cm drilled in a hole and exposed to thousands of "frost and defrost" cycles.
Ciao,
E
Snorky

Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
Jan 22, 2012 - 03:00am PT
You will get to replace the bolts with new material next year .....

[Ed] I removed ebony peg idea so nobody steals it.

Might as well do permadraws. Just to lighten the load. Speed things up. Belay seats would be nice too, especially if they heat up and vibrate. Also need to install wifi up there. People need to check scores.

Thanks for the info Kinobi.
New Age II

climber
Jan 22, 2012 - 03:05am PT
No. .... Replace only the bolts on the slope of the Maestri ...... that's all.
Rather than clean up the base of the Colle della Pazienza ...... last year was full of abandoned fixed ropes! Those ropes were not Maestri of ......
Snorky

Trad climber
Carbondale, CO
Jan 22, 2012 - 03:25am PT
can't argue with that! ciao
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Jan 22, 2012 - 03:35am PT
He went back with a compressor and drilled a bunch of bolts. He got what technology offered him at that time. I am not that surprised in what he did at that time, with the "enviromental" knowledge of that time.

The area was designated a park in 1959 and a UNESCO site in 1970 - the same year as the first Earth Day. The "environmental knowledge" was public, open and there for anyone to adopt. The fact his climbs coincided with these dates is no small irony. How old are you? You don't seem to have a very good grip on the times.
Clint Cummins

Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
Jan 22, 2012 - 04:17am PT
Not enough photos!

Bolts - The 90m Traverse

Maestri 10 bolt "station" (at start of traverse), from below
(A1 crack on Salvaterra var. visible above, see more of that below)
(2 of these look like non-Maestri bolts)
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html

Start of The 90m Traverse
http://www.brasovia.com/events/patagonia/index.html

Continuation of The 90m Traverse (ice on the tat version)
http://www.brasovia.com/events/patagonia/index.html

traffic on the 90m traverse
http://mcsa.org.za/cpg/displayimage.php?album=24&pos=7

Non-Bolted

The Ice Chimney
http://www.brasovia.com/events/patagonia/index.html

More Bolts

It was Monika Kambic and partner Tanja Grmovsek’s second attempt;
just above the point of this photo, Kambic was hit by falling ice and suffered three broken ribs.
The pair persevered for the first all-female ascent of the peak. [Photo] Andrej Grmovsek
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP11/climbing-note-grmovsek

Headwall

Looking down the headwall
http://mcsa.org.za/cpg/displayimage.php?album=24&pos=6

Looking up towards Compressor.
http://www.brasovia.com/events/patagonia/index.html

Looking down from the Compressor.
http://www.bmg.org.uk/index.php/eng/News/Cerro-Torre-peak-of-controversy

Rapping from the Compressor
http://kellycordes.wordpress.com/2010/06/25/cerro-torre-david-lama-and-red-bullshit/

Salvaterra variation (avoids 90m Traverse)

p1 (A1 crack), with bolt traverse visible to right
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html
(In 11/1971 - 2/72 there was a 10 ton ice block here, which made the Dickinson party take the bolt traverse,
and abandon plans to return to the 1968 Crew line).
http://c498469.r69.cf2.rackcdn.com/1973/dickin_torre1973_328-329.pdf
The ice mushroom was there again in 2007 for Wharton and Smith, and they found it could be bypassed on the left
(which is also the path David Lama took for his free ascent in 2012).

Zack Smith leading past one of the 8 bolts on the Salvaterra var.
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html

Rolo rapping down the Salvaterra var.
http://colinhaley.blogspot.com/2011_02_01_archive.html

Overview of route variations

http://pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html

[Edit:]
Yes, Bruce, in different years the ice varies in location and risk:

 June 1970 (winter) - Maestri's initial attempt on the climb.
"The bolt traverse was climbed in the winter when a big snow mushroom blocked passage on the ridge itself." http://www.pataclimb.com/climbingareas/chalten/torregroup/torre/SEridge.html

 1971/72 Dickinson - could not take 1968 Crew line, due to a 10 ton ice block in the way,
so they took the 90m bolt traverse instead.
http://c498469.r69.cf2.rackcdn.com/1973/dickin_torre1973_328-329.pdf

 1979 Bridwell/Brewer - were nearly wiped out by falling ice blocks low on the route,
but happened to be at a spot where they could duck under an overhang.
Just below the headwall, Bridwell had to excavate 6-12 inches of ice to reach bolts.
http://c498469.r69.cf2.rackcdn.com/1980/375_bridwell_cerrotorre_aaj1980.pdf

 2005 in photo above, Kambic was hit by ice blocks coming off the headwall;
broke 3 ribs but she kept going.
bhilden

Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
Jan 22, 2012 - 04:33am PT
Interesting photos Clint. It's been 41 years since Maestri bolted his line and clearly some of the bolts look very unnecessary. It would be interesting
to know if, in some of the more egregious places, there was ice or some other obstacles blocking what appears to be a more logical line of ascent.
Big Mike

Trad climber
BC
Jan 22, 2012 - 04:46am PT
First of all I would like to thank Coz for not deleting the bolt ladders from the grand. I would never get up the thing otherwise :)

These sentiments have rung true for me..


our passage should go unnoticed among those mounts.

but our fear of change inhibits our purity.
maestri was pure afraid of dying. so he shot the place
foul of hole, to ensure his soul.

though really,
his soul was already consumed by fear.

death is his, boss.
and death defines many.

these fools flail wildly in all of their's pursuit.

we whom co-inherit death and life strive for purity of passage in
difficult realms.

the mounts are there, always receiving warriors and fools, alike.

they are beyond us. the mounts.
they are eternal.

but we, finite beings of soft flesh and vunerable systems
can exploit the high and cold and make less sense of their and of our world,

and according to this accepted confusion we've transcended the fear-mongers
whom murder every potential mystery with a submission of their spirit to god.

and,

brave young surgery
removing the vulgar scar
abusive lover

so, no more free rides
from inadequate suitors
or soulless lovers

we are so sorry
you have to try harder now
she's worth it, you know?

I remembered that Sonnie Trotter had chopped a route in Lake Louise a while back, this is what he had to say about it.

The Path is not a sport route that got chopped, it’s a
f*#king trad route that got bolted. I didn’t chop the
bolts so much as I restored the climb.

Besides, some of the bolts were in the wrong place anyway.

Someone once asked me if the Compressor route on Cerro
Torre should get chopped, my honest answer is this – I
don’t know enough about the climb to say one way or
the other. I am far too removed to make any sort of
judgment. How can I begin to think that I have the
voice to answer that question. In regards to the
Path, yes, I think the bolts should be removed, not
because I am happy with a hacksaw, but because the
climb is a safe, obvious, well protected trad climb
and NEVER should have been bolted in the first place.

It bugs me when people want to make climbing safe for
everyone, more accessible to everyone. Well then, why
don’t we bolt the blood out of every great crag and
then pave the road to the base, maybe around the side
of the Lake so we won’t have to walk as far, so
climbers won’t have to carry some cams, so that we
won’t have to get out of our cars to get coffee,
instead we can just sit in a ridiculous parade around
the parking lot, waving our money out the widow.

I did not remove the bolts to make any sort of
statement. I am against the practice of placing
expansion bolts next to cracks or other natural lines
than can otherwise be protected safely and easily. I
am not against bolting, I have put up tons of bolted
routes, and I love sport climbing (that plug was for
the guy who told me to “remember where I come from” as
though hard sport is all I’m allowed to do) but there
is a time and place for power drills. If I upheld a
lesser ethic, I would have chopped the East Face of
Monkey Face, but I didn’t because it is not my route
and I have too much respect for the F.A. to make any
changes. The Path however was abandoned and I had an
opportunity to make a decision for myself on how I
wanted this climb to be approached. If I never told
anyone that I removed bolts, would web surfers on
Gripped be having this discussion at all? The way I
see it, some things in this world need to remain
sacred and I stand behind that. F*#k it – even if
both climbs get retro bolted tomorrow (which I don’t
think will happen, as I know 3-4 people personally who
are all excited to give the route a go) then all I can
say is that I did what I thought was the best thing to
do for that particular climb and life goes on.

The path was put up as a project and abandoned. Could the compressor route not be called abandoned as well since he did not reach the summit, and then tried to erase his mistake on the way down??

More on the path here.

So I don't want Coz to delete my project, but I also disagree with placing so much hardware in the mountains... Hmmmm kinda hypocritical...

Just think, the next compressor route party has a chance to take a cordless and retro bolt it in decent fashion! :) Or summit the new headwall variant!
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Jan 22, 2012 - 08:57am PT
Take another good look at those pictures and tell us honestly that the Bolt Route needs to be preserved.
To our Italian cousins, the disdain of this alpine travesty is not a referendum on nor a condemnation of Italy or Italians. It is a reaction to one man's horrible abuse. Nor is it a condemnation of Maestri's eearlier remarkable climbs. The first ascenionist could have been an American, an Armenian or an Eskimo and it would have made no difference.

tarallo

Trad climber
italy
Jan 22, 2012 - 09:00am PT
Foradaiball hai rotto i coglioni con le tue cazzate.
Translation:foradaiball you have broken the balls With your bullsh#t.go by your self without saying anything and chop the nose the salathe and so on ,so you are happy.
llkk

Trad climber
boulder
Jan 22, 2012 - 01:09pm PT
I dont agree with bunch of you guys

Anyway, this is what I think:
We , at least me, go to the mountains to climb because I love the heights the challenge the sunsets , a bit of fear, a bit of feeling out of human stupidity, this is why I love the quite mountains.
Then, Maestri, was for sure an arrogant old furt, but even though his adventure is respectable for me, since the access to Chalten was hard in those time, no transportation, bridges or sh#t, just human passion or ego was the motor, he took out the challenge of the mountain (what I disagree), because at that time was consider the hardest mountain with K2,
Anyway, Maestris route / attitude sucks
But, why this two young bastards have to go and take out the pitons, who are them more than two good climbers
And good climbers with 5.10 shoes, good meteo forecast, plane access airport is only few hs to base of the wall, so this is technological improvement that makes their way easier!
And on top of that, the local community of Chalten agreed in 2007 to leave the pitons as a cultural thing (we can agree or not) but, the kids are not the guys to take bolts out
Their attitude is arrogant , and sorry to say it but is a classical pushy attitude of competitive northamerican climber.......for me all this brought stupidity to the mountains what I hate
I like Chalten, but the vibe there sucks, rather climb a little peak 5 +- 3 pitches,
and you can think is mediocrity but I dont , because my experience is full and fullfils me , and thats the reason to go out there
the only reason

Just imagine any of us going and chopping Harding bolts because Lynn Hill free the Nose in 92? So, nobody would go there

Well guys, good enough, and have fun talking about all this bullsh#t

Any of us is dying from cancer, so not much to worry!

Messages 321 - 340 of total 1703 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
 
Our Guidebooks
spacerCheck 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks

guidebook icon
Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta