Sugarloaf: New(ish) Routes

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Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Original Post - Jan 9, 2012 - 04:51pm PT

There are 3 new routes at Sugarloaf.
To the right of Mortisha and Lurch is a wall that is accessed by a low 5th class slab/crack. This takes you up onto the East Terrace. The routes sit right of Lurch and left of an obscure crack called Hanging Jugs. The left route is Swallow’s Tale 5.8 90 feet 7 bolts with small gear at the bottom and a 1 or 2 camalot at the horizontal crack. FA Jerry Klatt. To it’s right is Monkey Flower 10c, 90 feet, 5 bolts, small to medium gear and a couple of knobs to sling. To its right is a big left facing corner, to crack on face and join MF for last 25feet. As Yet Unnamed 10d, 90 feet , 2 bolt and a full rack. All end at the same chain belay. On the ledge at the base of ST and MF is a chain belay to bring people up and rap back to ground. It gets great morning sun. There is also a route to the right of the approach pitch dubbed Eastern Bloc until someone tells me it’s real name. It now has an anchor on it and is a very good knob climb but hard at the bottom and top 11d/12a.
And…if your still bored Mackerel Sky (see earlier post if a all interested) 11b, 11b? sits longingly in the afternoon light awaiting a second. Start out of West Chimney at about 40-50 feet with bolt on arete above head. Straight up, 5 bolts 11b. Pitch 2 straight up easy to steep knobby headwall. 11b little hight dependant.

ADDENDUM:
If you climb Telesis you can now do an additional second pitch.
The original line that P Crawford put up (as Swamp Thing), went to the big ledge below Grand Illusion. The anchor put in years ago stopped at the hard climbing about 50 feet below the ledge. The last 50 being 5.7 or less.
Instead head up and right from the belay to gain a small ledge and the sharp arete that is formed by the Left face of the Dominion dihedral.
4 bolts go up the sharp arete and directly over a cool overhanging scoop clearly visible from the ground to the main GI ledge. 10+.
Dubbed the "Swamp finish"

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 9, 2012 - 05:25pm PT

Can you post a photo with routes drawn on it or something? How many honest stars would you give them, per your own judgment?

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Jan 9, 2012 - 05:30pm PT

the man whom can smear
on overhanging slab?

crimp on fly scat?

what you got?

new routes!

how do you always find your way into controversy?

your paths are grand.
your stature, assured.

i believe that these new routes
might be good upon.

was courage necessary? aiden?
im sure it was present.

convenience always competes into the warrior path.

i know that you are warrior more than me.
i trip always upon my own misunderstandings.

cheers, ya brit.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 9, 2012 - 11:24pm PT

Thanks Ron. Though ain't it a bitch to be so predictable?
The routes: Swallows Tale and Monkey Flower are actually rather good and 90 feet long I feel sure they were never climbed before.

FA of Monkey Flower was done on 2 bolts with ground fall big runouts on marginal slings because I only had two bolts and really wanted it. My testicles where problematic during the ascent and they caught on several knobs due to their unfeasibly large size. Still, I made the best of it, and other than a couple of embarrassing abrasions to my knackers, all is well.

I think, Mr Anderson, should get up there for a day. You might enjoy yourself despite yourself. At least your spouting would hold a bit more water
Kind Regards
a

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 10, 2012 - 04:41pm PT

I do I see a glimmer of interest Mr. Anderson?
Just head up. the 3 are easy to tell from the description. Monkey Flower has not seen a second I suspect. It was a very dangerous route with only 2 bolts and I had always intended it to have 4. It's still a little tricky pro and requires knob slinging and a cool head, but not dangerous. My goal was to put up a great route, which it is. I don't know how hard you climb but if hard 11 you should have a go on Hanging by a Thread.11d.(good topo on hwy50climbing.com page) It ascends 80 feet of virgin rock. It is on west side past man who fell to earth by 50-70 yards and before Hyperspace. all bolts and very demanding, but safe. Chad Salanzer (sp) got the second and confirmed it's quality.
There not all grid bolted extensions and 30 foot wonders by any ones reckoning, but you won't know until you get up there to see and try them
cheers
a

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 10, 2012 - 05:09pm PT

I no longer climb at zoos

It is only a zoo on a few routes, due to lack of climbs that regular folks can do. So beginner routes that protect (Scheister, Pony Express and Morticia) turn into zoo.

If that formation is so holly and bolts are so evil, why did they put in a bolt on Scheister? Why is there a bolt ladder to one of the summits?

labrat

Trad climber

Nevada City, CA

Jan 10, 2012 - 05:57pm PT

Shiester bolt that I believe Smegma is referring to is third pitch variation where you go straight up and to the right and up to finish anchor bolts (5.8?) instead of tunneling through (original Harding Chimney finish).
Erik

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 10, 2012 - 06:02pm PT

Yes, 3rd pitch. Traverse right variation. Older looking bolt (as I remember) on the slab part. Than hike up some crack in a corner and do a BIG air exposed traverse right (5.5 or so) and belay on gear between huge summit rocks, with a sh#t load of rope drag. I have never seen bolts on top of it, heard there are a lot of variations.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Jan 11, 2012 - 08:43am PT

jesus aiden you draggin your knutsack
across erratic geologic intrusions?

they prolly look of little gnome heads
stikeen out
with pubic beards

Stewart Johnson

climber

lake forest

Jan 11, 2012 - 09:57am PT

place has turned into a shitpile! i wont climb there.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 11, 2012 - 10:56am PT

Don't think anyone will miss you there, Stewie. Actually can all of you people that climb at sugarloaf just stop showing up?

You complain about the place being a zoo etc...Don't you think as more people start climbing and as more people want to get out and climb outside the # of people will rise, at every crag.

When I see people getting out I am kind of happy to see them outside, instead of in-front of their box at home. Although I do hate when people are loud, and create that zoo atmosphere at a crag.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 11, 2012 - 11:38am PT

I think if one still has the understanding of history and desire to challenge self, the loaf should be fine. We can't control the others, we can only control the way we climb. The rock is the same it was back than. Atmosphere at every crag is like atmosphere on a forum. It depends on participants. If you and your friends come out more often and talk to the newer climbers you may actually put some values into them (those values you respect). Not their fault if they don't know any better.

caughtinside

Social climber

Davis, CA

Jan 11, 2012 - 11:47am PT

oh it's all nonsense. Ron's friends Dano and Paul have bolted face routes at the Loaf, I think Jay Smith has at least one as well. Ron clings to some fake ideal about those guys. They were hungry for FAs, and went out and got them. Someone else does the same and...?

I will say that many of the newer routes on the outlying boulders are pretty scabby, but the ones on the main rock tend to be terrific.

Crowds you say? JUST SAY NO TO GANG ROPING.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 11, 2012 - 12:57pm PT

Than you should climb that guy's routes and compare.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2012 - 02:04pm PT

Ron,
You really need to get up to the main rock of the Loaf. I'm not sure I know of any sportlines up there? Any over bolting to be found is on smaller rocks scattered around and I'm just not that concerned over it. It hardly detracts from the mystique of the main formation and a lot of beginner climbers like them

Why did the old guys not place bolts on Hyperspace, Grand Illusion, etc you ask? Well hello: They're cracks! Find me a bolt I've placed next to an opportunity for half decent natural protection and I'll go and pull it.
As for Trampled under foot: It’s a 2 star route at best not a masterpiece, and doesn’t need another bolt if you know how to place gear.

As for Tapestry: Long before I ever put up Crushed Velvet Blue Velvet went in and added 3 bolts to the start of Tapesty. My route shares 1 bolt and added none.

The thing is Ron, time changes everything. We see the past in a rosy glow of the “good old days”. You know what, THE GOLDEN AGE IS NOW ! And when it stops being for me, it will be for my kids or the next generation of new climbers.

I climb at Sugarloaf almost always during the week. Most days we are alone all day. Just the rock, the sun and the peregrines. It’s a phenomenally beautiful place filled with hard, thin testpieces that get a few of accents a year at most. Birdman, Ghost in the Machine, Cry Mary, Sugar Daddy. They never get easy, and now you can add Slippy Liam, Hanging by a thread, Monkey Flower and Mackerel Sky to that list.

There are no hordes, other than occasional groups of a few that want to TR Pony Express or Mortica. The place is wide open to have the same incredible experience of dicing your way up a committing heady route, except now there are more routes to have that experience. The vast majority of climbers I continue to meet, old or new, are good people and good stewards of the environment. I’m glad to see them up there with their friends and families instead of another round of Xbox.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Jan 11, 2012 - 03:43pm PT

You guys can have your bolt wars, but people like me will be there just for pure joy of the place. I believe all could be happy in such a beautiful place!

Still don't understand why did they bolt morticia years ago and care about bolts on new routes today. Seems like the seed was planted long ago.

bergbryce

Mountain climber

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Jan 11, 2012 - 03:49pm PT

Smegma's descriptions hardly sound like bolt ladders.

Another thing to take into consideration concerning the 'Loaf.... It's the closest decent granite crag to the largest concentration of climbers in probably the entire world. And the climbing is incredible.

caughtinside

Social climber

Davis, CA

Jan 11, 2012 - 03:50pm PT

Yeah, I'd say the routes of Crawford and Osman... the ones from the 80s, are pretty similar in character to the ones from the 90s, and the ones from the 00s. Crawford has some new hard thing on the Bun, you should let him know how you feel.

You keep harping on Tapestry. What a waste of good rock. The neighboring routes are both quite good.

No bolts on hyperspace or the Illusion? Is that an argument? Maybe huff less of that embalming fluid.

I realize you guys were way rad and did your way rad thing back when it was way rad. Make room for some other people to do their thing, because these posts of yours about the loaf really just make you look old and in the way.

kennyt

climber

California

Jan 11, 2012 - 04:03pm PT

caughtinside

Social climber

Davis, CA

Jan 11, 2012 - 04:39pm PT

So then... you just want to complain about new routes without the ability or inclination to try them? Ok then.

You have a legitimate beef about tapestry... but that ship sailed over a decade ago.

kennyt

climber

California

Jan 11, 2012 - 07:38pm PT

Ron, The answer is yes. I do most of my bolting on choss these days. What was the story with the flattened bolt hangers next to fingerlock about 18years ago. Kenny

kennyt

climber

California

Jan 11, 2012 - 08:50pm PT

Yeah Ron

kennyt

climber

California

Jan 11, 2012 - 10:01pm PT

Well, that's not good

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 11, 2012 - 10:25pm PT

Mr Anderson, Other than the quick jabs and the not so quick snappy answers, I not sure you your hearing or getting a word of what been written here? I keep reading the same old dissertation over and over. I think you have reached a point where the learning curve is flat and you showing that by your incessant, repetitive ranting.
Despite what you think, the world didn't stop climbing and climbing didn't spot evolving when you moved on from your glory days.
This is the Golden Age of climbing. Dano is dead, Jay Smith is in Utah, and Paul Crawford doesn't give a sh#t.
I’ve been at it a long time and I have big respect for the old school and the rock, but man, hang it up!

kennyt

climber

California

Jan 11, 2012 - 10:41pm PT

Hey,Ron Wasn't implying that you did just all this loaf talk reminded me of that don't know why. Just remember thinking it looked like sh#t and if that was somebodys retaliation for rap bolting well...

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Jan 11, 2012 - 10:46pm PT

i was thinking about hand excavating
(inspired by mucci's heroic dig to free lars)
the entire south side of the loaf,
adding a pitch or two down.
i can make good erosion,
im wind and rain and hell on fire, i.

once i scrape down the dead detritus
there'll be sweet new lines for all.
to enjoy and it'll be like
going down in time or back or maybe forth,
or rather just every direction at once,
and i'll be nowhere except in the
basement of my dream, which
is in essence my grave.

kennyt

climber

California

Jan 11, 2012 - 11:00pm PT

I can't believe in the 2000s anyone would hike up there to clip bolts. let alone place them. Hey Norwegian tell Paul Kenny says hey and he should get on here and talk some sh#t his names been thrown around enough.

mcreel

climber

Barcelona

Jan 12, 2012 - 03:34am PT

I used to climb quite a bit at Sugarloaf. Back in 1990 or so, a few of us put down (on rap) a line a little ways to the R of Bolee Gold. Not just to the R, farther over. Just to the R is a somewhat chossy face that went at about 12a, John Scott did the FA and I annoyed him a bit by breaking off an important hold while following. Farther over is the line I'm talking about. This is (was) a long line that did some face/knobs into a thin seam/groove sort of crack, and then finished up on face to a 2 bolt anchor. A long pitch, maybe 45 meters. The first 30m or so are pretty interesting and sustained, then the last part eases off. The first or maybe second bolt seemed poorly placed, and getting around it was cruxy, because a big knob broke off on an early ascent. I think we originally rated it 11d.

So, this being an early rap installed route at the Loaf, I'm wondering if it's still there? The bolts were rawl 5 piece, easy to remove. We never settled on a name, so if it's still there, what are people calling it?

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Jan 12, 2012 - 08:49am PT

mcreel i believe that
route is called birdman.

aiden's all over that shite.
he has raved about the quality of
your route

mcreel

climber

Barcelona

Jan 12, 2012 - 09:30am PT

Thanks Norwegian. If it's still there, then I'm glad people are enjoying it. The quality of the rock was not the best for Sugarloaf, but if it's getting climbed I imagine that it's pretty clean now.

I did and still do feel a little guilty for rap bolting at Sugarloaf.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2012 - 01:29pm PT

Birdman
For my money it is the best face route at Sugarloaf. Sustained, airy, technical, sporty and long (~140 feet) with ~5 cruxes 11a or harder. Rock quality at this point is excellent. You have to have your head on straight the day you lead it. 25 foot lead fall potential.
The other that comes up left of Bolee Gold and ends at same anchor is dubbed "Harder than it used to be" after a hold broke. I lead it years ago with Joel Moore and called it 12a. Been on it since and can't touch it. Probably harder

drunkenmaster

Social climber

santa rosa

Jan 13, 2012 - 01:50pm PT

i did some of my best/favorite crack climbs on the loaf back in the day. i like sport and bouldering more than trad now for the most part so youd think i would love the new bolted routes but not entirely. i feel both sides of this story. i think the loaf is mainly a crack area and a few new mixed (bolt/gear) routes, if done well, are cool but if it does start to get bolted routes all over in the future then wtf. i feel the cracks have character and should be cherished and just another granite slab/face is usually pretty generic unless it follows some sort of line of features.

kennyt

climber

California

Jan 13, 2012 - 02:24pm PT

So Birdman is a rap route with the potential for a 25 foot fall?

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2012 - 02:39pm PT

100+ feet of rope out and 5 feet past your last bolt (typical granite bolted) and your belayer long out of sight. You can bet you'll go that far.

Ultraclassic: Who gives a rats how it went up. Would the climb be any different had the bolts been placed on lead?

Actually it would. Those 25 foot falls would be on old 1/4 inch mank until some "heinous rap bolting Nancy-boy" like me went up and spent time and money replacing it all with my gleaming power drill and shiny 3/8th bolts :)

kennyt

climber

California

Jan 13, 2012 - 08:08pm PT

Hey. settle down there sport I'm not bagging on rap bolting It just seems like you shouldn't "have to have your head on straight" to climb an 11+ line. That was bolted on rappel.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 13, 2012 - 08:35pm PT

I hear ya. I'm actually pretty settled down. Just winding up our less open minded brethran :)
I think the bolting is safe and in character with typical granite traditional routes as it should be, but 110 feet of rope out and no communication with your belay, it's kind of inevitable that your going for a ride if you come off

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Jan 13, 2012 - 08:59pm PT

Birdman is hands down the best face climb in the Hwy 50 corridor. Boot Hill perhaps coming in at a close second. I didn't think it was runnout at all. Never got that "heady" feeling ever. In fact, I remember it to be pretty tightly bolted, not weenie roast bolted but well protected none the less.

Ya'll should stop baggin on Aidans routes. You should be happy someone like him is the one putting up routes in the area instead of one of those local Tahoe yahoos that feel free to add bolts and anchors to anything they feel like with bolts so tightly spaced you're practically on toprope the whole time.

Aidans routes are always thoroughly thought out and well executed. Never over protected or with any sort of "ethical" concerns. Now whether you think the route is total crap or not is a matter of opinion. A few of them have reached classic status for sure.

On the other hand I've put a couple routes in at the Loaf, all of them ground up, onsight, hand drilling by stance. I'm sure they'll never be considered "classic" or even good for that matter, and I'm sure they will rarely see a repeat if at all. So, other than it being cool for me, I don't know which is actually the better way to put up routes. It's all relative.

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Jan 14, 2012 - 02:29am PT

Way better than bolee gold.

Bolee Gold is 50ft of good climbing followed by 200+ ft of 4th class bullsh#t. I suspect that route was way better for the F.A. than any subsequent accent. More so than usual anyway.

There are many other good sport routes in the area, but Birdman is a step above the rest in both quality and uniqueness.

Telesis is a good contender, but no sport route in any sense. Even after it's retro-bolting.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Jan 14, 2012 - 02:36am PT

thats funny sal,
you call 10a r and 5.8 r
4th class bullsh#t.

you must really be climbing at an inspired level.

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Jan 14, 2012 - 03:00am PT

10ft of .10a followed by many moves of low 5th, there is no "R" involved. Next pitch has a move or two of 5.5 followed by more low 5th class. I guess you could call it "R".

Funny how everything gets upgraded over the years.

Yeah, pretty much 4th class by original standards.

mcreel

climber

Barcelona

Jan 14, 2012 - 05:16am PT

Bolee Gold is a great climb, and a bold guy like Walt Shipley found it inspiring enough to motivate one of his famous video beta displays. I think I often rapped off after the first pitch, though.

I'm glad to hear that our route is getting done. At the time we did it I didn't think it was much more than average quality for the Loaf. I love all those routes, at least the ones I could do.

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Jan 14, 2012 - 10:17am PT

I never said the route sucked.

I guess my wording was a little harsh. By 4th class bullshit I ment easier climbing, much easier than the crux pitch anyway. The route is fun and I like the upper pitches more than the first but it goes from 10c pulling to a hike. Sustainment is a major factor in quality of the overall route IMO.

Birdman is sustained and the same quality of climbing as the first pitch of Bolee Gold.... and about 100ft longer. If BG had been three pitches of .10c or three of 5.5 I suspect it would have been more classic to me.

Ok, 5.6 tops!!!

Stewart Johnson

climber

lake forest

Jan 14, 2012 - 11:05am PT

bolee gold is fourth class? wow i need to get to the gym so i can send it.

tahoe yahoos? how about fuking wankers from below lake level.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 14, 2012 - 01:42pm PT

Thanks Chad.
I think your route on Sugarbun is pretty classic and probably never done. It probably needs another bolt and a clean. Depending of course how keen you are for it to get traffic? Personally, I want people on my routes. It keeps them clean and I get a kick out of other people digging a cool line I put up. For other first ascentionists, it's about the FA experience which I can understand. Just not my typical MO. I'm guessing not entirely yours either or I wouldn't have thought you'd have taken the time to pull your on-lead 1/4 inchers and sink 3/8 bolts.
What is it called again?
Besides you and I, do you think it's been done again?
a

bergbryce

Mountain climber

South Lake Tahoe, CA

Jan 14, 2012 - 10:41pm PT

Climbed BG in 2 long pitches a while back, I recall a short 5.10 section near the top of the first pitch, 2nd pitch was easy 5th class aside from a heads up 5.8 move probably 20' above your last pro and then slinging a knob. After that was maybe 50' 4th class to the top. I thought it was an incredible route then but that was before I started doing the finger crack circuit at the Loaf, which imho, is the standout climbing style at that crag.

I'd rather see routes put up that can be climbed by others than ones that will sit there and grow moss.

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Jan 16, 2012 - 01:13am PT

^^^^^
EXACTLY.

Bolee gold, pitch 1, 5.10c. Pitch 2, 5ft of .10a. Pitch 3, Easy 5th or more commonly referred to 4th class in the Sierra.

Aidan, my route on the bun (The Sound of Perseverance) got a repeat this weekend. As did your route that crosses through Pan Dulce. Honest opinion, loose the first bolt, it's a retro and remove the intermediate anchor. Would be better as one pitch. Move the upper anchor left to a better stance above the scoop. Solid .11a, maybe height dependent crux. Excellent and totally independent route, except for the first bolt.

Stewie... That water's full of mercury. Quit drinking it! Obviously too late in your case.

kennyt

climber

California

Jan 16, 2012 - 06:30pm PT

Ron, You have seen my tub of bolts do you think I could get in on it?

Scott Thelen

Trad climber

Truckee, Ca

Jan 16, 2012 - 06:38pm PT

You put them in.

I'll take them out.

Then we can go to a new crag and repeat.

This sounds like fun.

kennyt

climber

California

Jan 16, 2012 - 06:43pm PT

I think Scott has some extra bits maybe he could tag along. Doe's a Bosch count as hand drilling? it fits in your hand.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 16, 2012 - 07:37pm PT

Note token Chad. Always appreciate the honest feedback. I rather like the opening 25 feet. Sustained and technical, but that's just me. The belay has large feet to stand on if you lower a few feet. I think only you could rate it 11a!

Ron,
that proposed route was done a few years ago with a handful of slings. It's called Duty to the Past. Unrated. Did in 2 pitches with triple 70m rope technique. Don't even think about bolting it mister

Mighty Hiker

climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Jan 16, 2012 - 08:12pm PT

So Ron, is that some sort of training for the sleds team? Will Weld_it be contributing?

m_jones

Trad climber

Carson City, NV

Jan 17, 2012 - 01:22am PT

So I went climbing the other day at Sugarloaf - First time in maybe oh about 30 years or so. Beautiful mid January fall day.

Imagine my shock at seeing bolts on one of my routes from way back in the day and a convenient rap anchor after the difficult bit so the whole thing does not have to climbed to the top.

Was I pissed - he## yea!!

At least you kids could have had the decency to do all subsequent ascents with the tied off knife blades we used. wtf!!

By now the pin scars would be big enough that I might have a shot at getting my old self up Hookers again ;)

Scott Thelen

Trad climber

Truckee, Ca

Jan 17, 2012 - 09:39am PT

Those crazy kids ...

wankers..

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Jan 17, 2012 - 09:49am PT

You old people need to lighten up!

This is the Golden Age, where rap bolting and convenience anchors are just part of the cost of being golden.

Who wants to waste time topping out on a route when there are so many stellar new climbs to fire off rat a tat tat?

It is the Golden Age of the outdoor gym...

m_jones

Trad climber

Carson City, NV

Jan 17, 2012 - 07:20pm PT

Actually I am really impressed by the standard of climbing now and the lets enjoy a great day and have fun attitude by most I have met at the crags lately.

And now that I really think about it, I take it as a complement that someone took the time to set up Hookers so more would free the route. And would have been really disappointed if there were huge pin scars up there.

We were freeing an aid route and for some reason kind of respected the way it was aided. We did not feel we should place bolts in a dicy A4 route. The free crux was led above a tied off pin stack.
Seems T Caldwell is playing by the same rules on a much grander scale these days.

The active generation over the years calls the shots.

The gray generation offers perspective on an activity we care deeply about.

(no sarcasm in this bit BTW)

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Jan 17, 2012 - 07:34pm PT

i've lost arrows for fingers,
talons for toes.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Feb 21, 2012 - 07:30pm PT

If you climb Telesis you can now do an additional second pitch.
The original line that P Crawford put up (as Swamp Thing), went to the big ledge below Grand Illusion. The anchor put in years ago stopped at the hard climbing about 50 feet below the ledge. The last 50 being 5.7 or less.
Instead head up and right from the belay to gain a small ledge and the sharp arete that is formed by the Left face of the Dominion dihedral.
4 bolts go up the sharp arete and directly over a cool overhanging scoop clearly visible from the ground to the main GI ledge. 10+.
Dubbed the "Swamp finish"

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Feb 22, 2012 - 12:36am PT

Good grief. Nary a nibble of interest or a single slanderous remark?
Where's Ron A when you need him:)

Tim Camuti

Trad climber

Feb 22, 2012 - 01:33am PT

We of the younger generation know nothing and need photo topos to tell us where to go. If the route isn't on the intardnet it doesn't exist. Post a photo topo of it on 8a.nu so we can find it, send it, and fight over bragging rights!

BLUEBLOCR

Social climber

joshua tree

Feb 22, 2012 - 11:37am PT

I think this ties in good with the teaching evilution thread. Some people
evolve to climb with less gear. Most dissolve into needing more.

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Feb 22, 2012 - 09:52pm PT

Hey Aidan, Brandon and I lead it the day after you put it up. Well, I lead it anyway. I linked it with Telesis in one long pitch to the top. Rope drag city, wouldn't reccommend it. I had to back clean every clip.

Anyway, its good.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 5, 2012 - 11:03pm PT

Good to hear. I was going to go up and do the same 1 long pitch. Won't bother now. What do you think 10+?
You should go up and try the Falcon (above the Fang) and tell me what you think. You also need to get up and straighten second pitch of Ghost (which by the way is officially sanctioned by Edwin Drummond when I asked him few years ago)
a

Branscomb

Trad climber

Lander, WY

Mar 6, 2012 - 09:39pm PT

Norman Collie was one of the great British mountaineers of the 1880s and 90s. Considered one of the best climbers of his generation, he believed in climbing without guides, making first ascents of some of the hardest climbs of the Alps at that time, an audacious attempt on Nanga Parbat in 1895, and much exploratory climbing in the Canadian Rockies.

Towards the end of his life, he was disturbed by the changes that had taken place in climbing, but had this to say in the end:

"Civilization has stretched out its hand and changed it all, and though those who know the old days are somewhat sad that the old order has changed, yielding place to new, yet the new order is good, and the land of the great woods, lakes, mountains and rushing rivers is still mysterious enough to please anyone who has eyes to see, and can understand."

I guess if it bothers you too much, there's still a lot of hills left to hike over and check out the new. Imagine.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 9, 2012 - 06:08pm PT

Well said Mr Branscomb.
There is still huge amounts of adventure, excitement, beauty and challenge in climbing and it is hard to believe that will ever change. Even an increasingly popular destination like Sugarloaf has lost very little of it's hard and fear provoking climbs, or beauty. Being up on the west face dicing around on tiny holds with bolts below your feet and the aplpen glow lighting up the route is as brilliant today as it was 20 years or more. It's just for the most part the people who are rising to the challenge are different.
a

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Mar 26, 2012 - 11:00pm PT

Because i was on the first ascent of a couple of the old school routes mentioned {Tapestry and Bolee Gold} i cant resist adding my two cents worth.Back in the day we had a measure of respect (albeit grudging)of the efforts of those that came before us.When we repeated earlier horrorshows like Fat Merchants Crack or Incubus we actually tried to improve upon style by climbing them clean and hammerless.So, please forgive me if i condemn these modern gutless wonders after they add 8 or 9 bolts to a established route and in essence erase a thing of beauty established with real peril by those that came before.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Mar 27, 2012 - 01:17am PT

Just wondering, how come do people that put a bolt every body length on 1st pitch of Bolee Gold complain about bolting so much? It is ok to bolt a 5.10 like a sport climb, but 5.8 has to be as run out as possible. Great logic.

On the other hand this last weekend I was lucky to make it to the loaf on one of the days. One of the routes we climbed was Morticia. I thought it was a fun route, and without excessive bolting. I think it was about 20 ft from last bolt to the anchors. I had fun though. Two mental cruxs for me were the traverse around the roof and getting to the 1st bolt, and getting to another one somewhere in the middle. Also, found out you put up another 5.9 just around the corner (with black bolts), can't wait to get on it.

On the other hand it is obvious why no one cares to do Lurch...

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Mar 27, 2012 - 01:22am PT

Right on!

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 27, 2012 - 08:19am PT

mr. sumner,
i am a big fan of your routes.
i would not add bolts to your routes,
instead i find one that intrigues me
and then save up the courage that
it will demand.

regards and thank you for authoring routes that have pushed me along as a climber and as a person.

Scott Thelen

Trad climber

Truckee, Ca

Mar 27, 2012 - 10:44am PT

Please stop bolting at the loaf

Barf!

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Mar 27, 2012 - 11:15am PT

I am pretty sure Rick was saying that Bolee Gold was retroed, so it had less bolts when he put it up. And I still wouldn't consider it bolted every body length, least not between bolts two and three. Course, I'm probably just a gutless wonder ;).

There were bolts added to Bolee Gold? I did not know that (but I do not know a lot. I just come to sugarloaf to climb, not to get deep into this ethics debate etc).

I thought Lurch was a one star climb. Morticia is a much better climb. Really cool sustained moves through and past the roof all the way to the last bolt. I managed to get a load of rope drag as well which made the bolted part really exciting. I should have extended the cam I put in the roof a lot more I guess. That part was exciting too, for me. All the moves are there and super solid, but I was fairly tense because I did not know that. + when I just started climbing 2 years ago I did not make it up morticia on TR, was nice to be back to lead it.

Branscomb

Trad climber

Lander, WY

Mar 27, 2012 - 11:45am PT

Good to hear from Mr. Sumner. I saw him at the Leap a few years ago and talked a bit. Still a fit looking man.

I was always in awe of his routes. Probably backed off more of his routes than I've done. That was a big part of the paradigm in the 70s and 80s, that has been forgotten now, it seems: the mental composure element to be able to get out on those big hard run outs. It was a big deal and, to me (just my own personal outlook), I have tremendous respect for that just because I think (again for me) that composure under fire is one of the marks of a real climber.

In those days you would have been hung by your thumbs at the top of Main Wall if you'd retrobolted someone's route.

Just for myself, I would never retrobolt someone else's route to make it 'safer', because I'm not so sure that my real rationalization isn't really one of "I can't commit to that level'. Better to back off and come back another day when you feel up to it, as far as I'm concerned.

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Mar 27, 2012 - 11:31pm PT

For those that answered my comments thankyou. We originally did Bolee Gold with two maybe three bolts tops other than the in-situ ones at the hanging belay for Hookers Haven. The second pitch was 5.10c unprotected right off the belay before becoming much easier shortly above. Any additional bolts other than the 2 or 3 protection bolts and the belay bolts have been added after the fact. Now what i have a real problem with is the erasure of Tapestry 5.10 x and replacement with an 8 or 9 bolt abomination called crushed velvet. Hell, the recent guidebooks don't even mention Tapestry, as if it never existed.

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 27, 2012 - 11:51pm PT

Rick, keep up the pressure on the retrobolters. Thanks for not falling into that broken record we hear so often..."well nowadays it should be safe and fun for all" or "we were just crazy kids".

Many of those climbs define us, who work hard to send them. All that crap added in between has removed that option for those who choose to rise up.

It is not enough for modern stewards of stone making their voices heard. Original FA speaking up and offering the story of the path they took, so cool. Maybe not enough to stop the damage, but make em think twice when they see somebody coming up the trail.

That sh#t is constant in tahoe, overeager bolting crazes fueled by sections of blank stone. No original vision? With all of that tahoe gold out there? Such a shame.

Do away with the new "Variations"
Do away with the power drills
Do away with the convienence
Do away with the retrobolting
Do away with the spray on routes that had been done for decades.

You know who you are.

Such a shame.

Mucci

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Mar 28, 2012 - 12:38am PT

Here's a blast from the past:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/290470/New-route-at-Sugarloaf

Chalky Fingers

climber

Mar 28, 2012 - 12:57am PT

Rick, I had a long conversation with Chris Mac about this and other routes erased by the Smegma before the Tahoe Supertopo was printed. Routes such as the Price-Smith route at Phantom Spires. The new route aborts Price-Smith then deletes the upper part of T-bone and Jugs Revisited. Chris was informed that these routes previously existed and still printed the atrocities, which are akin to Carrot Top's plastic surgery done to stone. These once proud routes abolished because some can't sack-up.
I say we get the pitchfork and torches. I'll boil the tar you bring the feathers. Let's roll up our sleeves and get to work.

mucci

Trad climber

The pitch of Bagalaar above you

Mar 28, 2012 - 02:07am PT

YO!

Chalky fingers is back!

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 28, 2012 - 11:40am PT

here is a shout out to
paul crawford and his
artful piece,
pro-ed on lead telesis.

a good expression of
his mental and physical prowess.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 28, 2012 - 01:36pm PT

because this internet world
is so removed from real,

i gotta say these,

i don't get the battery packing, retro, cross-over drilling jobs going on.
i am not a new router; i've never placed a bolt; and i rarely climb bolted routes (i.e. i'm horrible at them).

my opinion which is like a flea-sneeze in the universe,
is that belittling other peoples work / efforts by adding bolts is wrong.

aiden is a super bold, hard-working and very tallented climber.
he could do these routes in their original condition. i don't understand.

the grey areas abound in each party's interpretation of what ground is already climbed and what ground is virgin. and internet discussions regarding these gray areas are sure to be frought with mis-communications.

basically aiden is a friend and a kick asse climber that i respect,
though i do not understand nor condone his actions if indeed the accusations made here
are true.

i uphold my own ethics and standards,
i cannot force others to.

i wont go remove aiden's bolts,
because im not at all certain that what he's been accused of is accurate.
nor am i qualified in that i could not stand in the shoes that i profess others should.

i will remove the random bullshit convenient anchor bolts popping up all over the crag.
i will remove bolts placed next to cracks.

for these are clearly an act of attrition upon the mount, and the right / wrong of this situation is better defined in my heart.

aiden doesn't need my praise,
he's an apt fella, stouter than most.

but hell if i go sliding bare assed down
the granite slab with sparks issuing of
the friction on my brass bolls,
shouting all along that god believes in me.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 28, 2012 - 01:50pm PT

hayboose,

no sir im allota talk,
i do act though my suffocating
life style doesn't afford my
feet the ample time they need
to keep up with my mouth.

next rainy day i've off,
i'll complete the act.
i already bought the epoxy.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Mar 28, 2012 - 01:57pm PT

When I went to Sugerloaf for the first time, I was aghast to see a "convenience" rap station replete with chain approx. 25 feet off the ground (no route apparent under it).

WTF is up with that, and who dunnit?

Jon Taylor

Trad climber

Gardnerville

Mar 28, 2012 - 02:07pm PT

Hello Sumner, thought you were dead man;

This is a pretty old discussion, we had this chat many times during writing the guide and how and under what circumstances a bolt is appropriate. At the time we were cleaning up routes and doing them a la Chouinard Catalog style (clean, free and cleaned up). However, this ethic may have been partly subject to the gear of the day (nuts and stoppers basically, with the occasionally worthless tube chock), and its' intrinsic limitations. This seemed to go along with the esthetic of the day, which was for the sheer adventure and fun of it. Although after looking back on some these routes I feel fortunate to still be able to have children...

I personally advocated for the placement of a bolt (or fixed pin) in a place that would reduce the impact to the rock, as pro at the same place may be to say the least sketchy in order to maintain the quality of the route, although this too is a bit subjective. Far be it for me to tell people how to climb.

That being said, I do think the bolting has drifted a bit as i found some 5 or 6 bolts at the top of Ballbuster where we used to just sling things (Trippy Rock, 90 ft wall as well as others). As this proliferates it merely becomes accepted. -- see below for the point finer put...

Anybody seen Dexter lately?

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Mar 28, 2012 - 02:17pm PT

As this proliferates it merely becomes accepted

With all due respect, Fućk That!!

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Mar 28, 2012 - 03:51pm PT

my opinion which is like a flea-sneeze in the universe,
is that belittling other peoples work / efforts by adding bolts is wrong.

aiden is a super bold, hard-working and very tallented climber.
he could do these routes in their original condition. i don't understand.

the grey areas abound in each party's interpretation of what ground is already climbed and what ground is virgin. and internet discussions regarding these gray areas are sure to be frought with mis-communications.

basically aiden is a friend and a kick asse climber that i respect,
though i do not understand nor condone his actions if indeed the accusations made here
are true.

i uphold my own ethics and standards,
i cannot force others to.

+99999999999999
I dunno Aiden, but based on what I heard of him sounds like he is a better climber than I will ever dream to be, and a good person.

But can anyone answer, DID SOMEONE ADD BOLTS TO 1ST PITCH OF BOLEE GOLD WITHOUT THE CONSENT OF FA PARTY? That would be not cool.

You are talking about the lone anchor on the west face right? Right of Pony Express, right? I always looked at it without clear understanding what it is...

Did you ever chop the intermediate Self Abuse anchors, Weedge? Last time I went up they were still there.

There are a couple of salamanders in that crack lol

kev

climber

A pile of dirt.

Mar 28, 2012 - 06:57pm PT

Ultraclassic: Who gives a rats how it went up. Would the climb be any different had the bolts been placed on lead?

Um hell yeah it would be different - there would be fewer of them!

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Mar 28, 2012 - 09:45pm PT

It depends on when you were their Mr. Andersen. If it was March 1977 you saw me doing the 2nd ascent which was not anywhere near the achievement of Mr. Todd launching into the unknown, totally spontaneously, without pre-inspection, and without the knowledge it would go as he did in feb. 1977.This was Bill's last testament as he left Tahoe forever soon after and descended into mental illness from which, as far as i know, he never recovered.Climbing had been his whole life prior to this, so you can see why it upsets me that his creation,his heart and sole, his very life can be callously mutilated then eliminated from the record.On another note- Taylor you old Maroon lets get together and do a climb or two for old times sake.I spied a 3 or 4 pitch granite slab out in the big void (the great basin) about an hour and a half from my place outside Reno which is totally untouched and has several classic lines with our names written all over it, 5.3d at least. We will never have to worry about erasure since we'll never make any reports of its existence and nobody will ever find or even have the inclination to find it. ricksumner@ymail.com

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Mar 28, 2012 - 11:11pm PT

The crickets continue to chirp as we await Aidan's response after being called out by one of the FA-ists of Tapestry, who is basically calling BS on the idea of Crushed Velvet being "an independent line".

Aidan's silence is deafening!

What bugs me most is that Sugarloaf, Lover's Leap, Phantom Spires, etc have been (and still are, for the most part) some of the last bastions of ground-up ascents. Aidan seems knott to care in the least about local ethics or history, knott to mention going so far as essentially erasing existing routes in his apparent quest to rap-bolt everything in sight (and subsequently spaying about it online). Boo!

Ego and hubris run amok?

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Mar 29, 2012 - 01:00am PT

Ya know, the only reason there are retrobolted routes, bolted cracks and squeeze jobs abounding is because those of you who have such strong opinions, don't have the balls to back up your own convictions with action!

That being said, there is alot of misinformation floating around on this thread. Aidan seems to be getting the brunt of it, but I tell you, he is hardly the problem.

Seems like alot of blame is being placed on him for retrobolting routes that he didn't even do, and the ones he did would only qualify as a bit of a squeeze job at most.

Paul Crawford is a very traditionally minded climber. He maintains strong traditional values along with a sensible understanding of more modern sport climbing ideals. If Aidan was committing horrendous atrocities by mindlessly retrobolting and pissing all over established routes, there is no way they would be able to maintain the good friendship that they have. On that same note, I would surely have made enemies with (my friend) Aidan by now from the chopping of his offending bolts, as I am one of the very very few who are willing to back up their convictions with action.

Like I say, he's hardly the problem.

On a side note;

Rick Sumner, hell yeah! So glad you could join us. I have a particularly strong amount of respect for your routes. Your green Tahoe guide has been the bible for my dreams for many years. I have spent countless days training my mind, gritting my teeth and sucking it up trying to prepare for the routes of the big three. Smith, Crawford and Sumner. I have made a point to try and repeat all of their/your routes in the Tahoe area. I've whittled it down to a speratic few scattered here and there. Pigs on the Wing was a particular milestone for me and the Hourglass is still one of my favorites.

I was trying to find your contact info several years ago to ask you some questions about some routes. It's been so long I forgot what I was wanting to ask. Someone told me you stopped climbing, moved to Alaska and became a hermit...HA!

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Mar 29, 2012 - 03:20am PT

Please dont include me in the list with likes of Crawford and Smith. Those guys were/are way above my caliber. My best days were '73 to '76 when i climbed 200 to 300 days a year. I suppose then i could match ability with most climbers around and on a rare day climb as well as anyone out their. But a near fatal fall where i broke half the bones in my body (requiring 8 hours of surgery), a relationship with the wrong women, and a general desire to have a more traditional life put an effective end to my climbing career although i didnt realize it for several more years as i continued to thrash around on the rock with the days of climbing brilliance becoming fewer and farther between.. I moved to Alaska seeking my fortune and a wife. I found both, have been married 30 years, have 3 kids all college graduates of which 2 are now general contractors taking over the family business and the youngest , my daughter well on her way as a research scientist.Now in my second childhood, after parental responsibility,i have a bucket list of climbs that were to easy to consider in my youth.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 29, 2012 - 10:07am PT

mr sumner if you are ever
cragging down in the tahoe
confines i'd be honored to
hold your rope.

Stewart Johnson

climber

lake forest

Mar 29, 2012 - 10:24am PT

sugargrid.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Mar 29, 2012 - 11:07am PT

Now in my second childhood, after parental responsibility,i have a bucket list of climbs that were to easy to consider in my youth.

One of the reasons I like climbing is because you can totally suck (like me), but have TONS of fun.

Jon Taylor

Trad climber

Gardnerville

Mar 29, 2012 - 11:53am PT

Well the comments sure got warm and fuzzy. Rick I will give you a call, summer is coming and rock calls...

The bolting conversation will go on and on I am sure, it would be nice if it evolved into something other than f*#k this or f*#k that, obviously they have their uses (Crest Jewel comes to mind, a rather esthetic line well bolted).

I would have to agree on the Crushed Velvet thing it pales in comparison to Tapestry.

We did get to this issue a bit in the red book in the Eagle Creek section "...contrived variations of beautiful free climbs..." This primarily speaks to Eagle Lake Buttress as there are a number of nice climbs with good lines and forcing lines does seem to detract from the quality of the experience a bit.

Little bit of trivia, in the Red Book you will see E. Bart climbing around Tahoe, there was no such person it was one of us, we just did'nt want to turn the guide into an ego show.

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Mar 30, 2012 - 01:03am PT

John, Ron, Ladies and gentlemen, I must admit, i personally don't give a rats rear end about the "ethical" debate raging over bolting sport routes and retro-bolting previously established routes, then erasing them.My concern was for my long lost friend Bill and the significance of his achievement on Tapestry. I haven't been a real climber in over 3 decades, having long ago realized the the essential insignificance of the activity i walked away and now value anonymity much more than first ascent credit. So being, i welcome one and all to go ahead and retro-bolt then erase any route credited to me, but in so doing one must realize that in taking upon oneself the liberty to erase any previous route and then replace it with what one considers better and safer they have opened a moral floodgate and should expect no better treatment for themselves. That being said, i now turn to my ulterior motive in joining this thread. As i mentioned in earlier posts i have a bucket list of climbs to do including the 5.3d slab pictured below. I'm looking for partners with the particular skill set, mental and physical makeup,and attitude to take on the daunting slab. 1) must be a minimum of fifty years old with their best days at least two decades in the past. 2) must be capable of and willing to climb 5.3d even without protection and must be capable of and willing to reduce the climb, by any means necessary including but not limited to; use of pitons, liberal spraying of bolts, chiseling holds, gluing on artificial holds, lassoing, use of ladders, and any other method needed to bring the climb down to our level if so needed. 3) must be so addled of mind from past or current drug or alcohol use, or present a degree of dementia so acute, that memory of the events to unfold will be an impossibility and therefore any report of our activities and the resulting clamoring hordes hell bent on route erasure will not occur. 4) above all else one must maintain a sense of humor even if retreating from danger in a dastardly fashion. Seriously folks, i am returning to Alaska in May and even if i wasn't it would be to hot after that to climb their. I left my e-mail address on a previous post, feel free to contact me. Regards, Rick Sumner.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2012 - 08:22pm PT

Man, do I feel special…………but hardly deserving of all the commotion.
I really don’t like repeating myself over and over, which seems to happen on this site (that I try to avoid) but I feel the need since I’m often called out as the bolting Darth Vader of Hwy 50 climbing by my “friends” at ST. Luckily I enjoy a good piss-take so have at it

1) I am happy to meet, talk, email anyone about any of my routes to explain why they exist and even discuss taking them down (they are not all masterpieces :) if I was convinced the rational is sound However, the cyber bitch slapping is for PUSSIES. This means many of YOU WANKERS who just want to be seen on a chat page acting the hard man.

2) I actually have a good deal of respect for the tradition of climbing and its forefathers, but that doesn’t mean that everything they did was right.

3) Tapestry: The story as best I understand it. Joel Moore (an old partner) watched the first ascent. When I discussed my proposed route he said that “that is not Tapestry and should be given its own name”. Fair enough.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2012 - 08:24pm PT

Rick Sumner: Tapestry cont'd

You have probably not seen Crushed Velvet in person but here’s what I see: Tapestry starts up and veers slightly left and then hits knobs and trends back right to its 1st bolt. This 1st bolt of Tapestry is now (I think) the 4th bolt of Blue Velvet. Blue Velvet is the retro bolted bottom third of Tapestry. Tapestry then Trends right to its second bolt. This bolt is now a shared bolt of Crushed Velvet which comes up from below it and intersects it at that point. Tapestry then trends back left and to the top. Crushed Velvet continues straight up. As best as I know from the position of the Tapestry bolts (which are a different brand and easy to see) and Joel Moore’s observation of the routes FA, Crushed Velvet touches Tapestry at one bolt and the remainder is independent. If enough people who actually have been up and understand where both route go want it dismantled I would chop the upper half. I feel very certain that the lower 70+ feet had never been led and is excellent and tricky 10c/d climbing up sequencey knobs. I would also say that the same argument applies even more to Blue Velvet and so if you want to restore Tapestry the lower half of that route needs chopping also.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2012 - 08:25pm PT

4) The other controversial route I put up Is Lesbian Love. This really does qualify for adding bolts (my only time) to another person’s route, but………………Here is the rational.

The Price/Smith Route (I have much respect for a lot of Smith’s routes which are usually good lines and not as insane as they might at first seem): The PS started up one of the most beautiful and striking features on one of the most beautiful and striking pieces of rock around. The Upper Spire. The dike shoot up straight as an arrow on perfect rock just asking for a route. They started up in fine and daring style. They got to the hard thin climbing and could not bolt it on lead. The route then is shown to turn left 90 degrees, traverse 25 feet and join Robert’s Crack. Lame (sorry Mr. Smith. They can’t all be masterpieces), and most definitely not a classic. This left the dike unclimbed as a whole. A terrible waste for such a brilliant feature. I came along and bolted up the whole beautiful dike (hence Lesbian Love) as a route. Tradition would dictate that I should have left the first 40 feet as was and continued it up. I just could not get my head around what would have seemed like the ruination of a great route by having the first 40 feet X rated. It is certainly not a simple sport climb, but a really good and pretty hard, testy climb envisioned by Smith/Price and completed by me. Change the name, change the FA credit, but to chop it would piss a lot of people off who really like it (beside Lesbian Love is a way better name then Price/Smith:)

As for the rest of my routes. Lots of really nice, aesthetic climbs if you take the time to get on them. No bolted cracks. No death defying run outs put in on TR, but not many that would qualify as sport climbs either. I can honsestly say I think a great deal about where I place a bolt. As for the retro bolted Bollee Gold (1st), Telesis, Opus 7, Ghost in the Machine (1st). Not me. I would have liked Telesis left in original form myself. Opus 7. Paul Crawford doesn’t care less. Bollee: probably too much of a classic to take down now.
Happy Friday. Let the drinking and slagging off begin!

Aidanq9@gmail.com

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 30, 2012 - 09:58pm PT

self abuse intermediate
anchor is gone.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Mar 30, 2012 - 10:28pm PT

ah ron, i'll take the pint,
but though i mounted the bun, er, midway rock
armed with a cheater bar,
half my tool chest in sockets / wrenches
(i wasn't sure what size bolts i'd encounter)
epoxy,
gravel in my pockets
a sixer of greenies
and three hours before i had
to pick up my children
i found the bolts to be already gone.

someone beat me to them,
thanks to whomever you are
for cleaning that up.

i couldn't even find where the studs
once were.

cheers to restoration efforts.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Mar 30, 2012 - 10:35pm PT

I pulled em chuck. No need for them any more.
You should find better ways to spend your day off.
BTW I have some bolts I want chopping. Seriously, I don't have the time. I'll give you the details and you can have at it.

By the way will "you hold my rope" too?

history book rewriting for fun and profit? Now there's an idea.
Does it pay well?

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Mar 30, 2012 - 11:12pm PT

Ron, I really like your perspectives.

I agree with your opinions, your ideals, your standards etc... 99.99% of the time.

However in this case, you're a bit off base. Aidan is way more sensible and respectful of history than you've been lead to believe.

Others around the area... Not so much.

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Mar 30, 2012 - 11:17pm PT

Ron, Lets go sometime in the next 2-3 weeks. Anytime you have to spare, i'm on a pretty flexible schedule. ricksumner@ymail.com

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Mar 30, 2012 - 11:43pm PT

But remember there's just one rule. leave established routes alone. Where will it end.?

Agreed.

Rick, I lump you in with the likes of Smith and Crawford not so much for your routes or any perceived testicular fortitude. Rather for your uncompromising standards and ability to inspire having produced the still to this day best guidebook for the Hwy 50 corridor.

Those guys raised and set the standard, you chiseled it in stone.

Roughster

Sport climber

Vacaville, CA

Mar 31, 2012 - 02:03pm PT

So let me get this straight. Guys who by chance were born before others and climbed easily identified crags that are the most obvious somehow deserve more respect then anyone? Even of those discoveries that are yet to occur??

LOL

My hat goes off to the guys who have the persistence and vision to keep looking and find new crags that havent been developed yet despite many years of others having overlooked or not been willing to put in the effort.

History is a lesson, not a mandate to be repeated. Certainly I can respect the skill and boldness of previous generations, but in many respects, definitely in the area of finding new crags, the newer generations get way more props.

I don't support retro bolting routes, but honestly many of them would be better off if they were. The dusty cobwebs classics of old are sometimes relics best left as monuments to the past, but often are a waste of prime real estate. Just because Route 66 was classic, it didn't stop them from building I-10 and I-40 :)

Jon Taylor

Trad climber

Gardnerville

Mar 31, 2012 - 02:06pm PT

I'm looking for partners with the particular skill set, mental and physical makeup,and attitude to take on the daunting slab. 1) must be a minimum of fifty years old with their best days at least two decades in the past. 2) must be capable of and willing to climb 5.3d even without protection and must be capable of and willing to reduce the climb, by any means necessary including but not limited to; use of pitons, liberal spraying of bolts, chiseling holds, gluing on artificial holds, lassoing, use of ladders,...

Jeez Sumner, why not add long walks in the park, coffee shops on rainy days...

You sure your on the right site man....Think Im gettin a hot flash

RattyJ

Trad climber

Pine Grove

Mar 31, 2012 - 02:40pm PT

Nope, no one's saying that. You completely missed the mark man.

Roughster

Sport climber

Vacaville, CA

Mar 31, 2012 - 04:18pm PT

The red and green guides produced by Sumner, Todd, Dexter and Taylor was THE most significant addition to tahoe climbing and history that there ever has been, or ever will be.

Hmm I guess you're right....

I am not a young whipper snapper, but I really dislike the IWSMB BITD posts. It Was So Much Better Back In The Day for those of you wondering what the hell.

Many climbs if climbed today by the EXACT same people at the same age would be totally different. Why?? Because the style, protection, access to protection, and the cost of climbing was different then. Things weren't better BITD, they were simply BITD. Most of the routes were developed to the style at the time, but that doesn't mean that somehow that style is superior or that they got it right. If they develop an invisible no hole protection that allows lead climbing on "crackless" faces on friable rock, should my generation say that the routes put up in the 90s and 00s should be left with the bolts in the wall as a tribute to the past?

Oh well, arguments of this nature will be over in the next 20-30 years, and I think for the betterment of the climbing community as a whole. If you're wondering about why 20-30, most likely if you are reading this thread, take your current age and add 20-30...

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Mar 31, 2012 - 06:33pm PT

Taylor, its all about entertainment;you can't deny that is why you are on the site.I've come out of nowhere, seemingly back from the dead, to spice things up a bit in an effort to drag like minded individuals out of the ether and onto real rock adventures. I can promise you this-we'll most certainly meet with little measureable success (by todays standards), but we'll have a barrel of laughs and in the end that is of more importance.So old buddy, pull up your knickers, untie from the spaghetti mess of you and your girlfriends cordilette and e-mail me that your in. By the way, do you want to be Victor or Carlos this time out. ricksumner@ymail.com

Footloose

Trad climber

Lake Tahoe

Mar 31, 2012 - 06:36pm PT

Rick, welcome to supertopo.

Curious, do you have a younger brother, Pat?

if so, went to school with him in SLT and hung out in Jacks Valley
together back in the 70s... good times.

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Mar 31, 2012 - 07:02pm PT

Footloose, Yes Pat is my little brother. For the last twenty years he has worked as an Electrical Engineer for Qualcomm in San Diego.He's in charge of the testing department-getting the bugs out of the chips before manufacture which sometimes requires complete redesign. He's a pretty solid 5.10-11 trad climber as well.For the last 30 years i've done the bulk of my once a year or whatever climbing with him. Tell me your name and i'll pass on the inquiry. Also, do you fit my demanding criteria as i described in a previous post on this site? ricksumner@ymail.com

Footloose

Trad climber

Lake Tahoe

Mar 31, 2012 - 07:12pm PT

Wow, that's really something!

I gave you a ride somewhere, Pat and I did once. I was really into bodybuilding and pullups at the time (to set the school record) and remember to this day Pat's big brother sporting these big (bicep) guns! I confess, I am a little pissed now in hindsight that you didn't take Pat and me rockclimbing, also with me for not probing you further about this climbing stuff. To think, I could've been addicted 20 years earlier, the fickle finger of fate! :)

EDIT to add...

Rick, glad to hear about Pat! Good to hear he's a climber now, too. If he's ever in the Tahoe area, have him PM me, I think it would be fantastic to rope up together after all these years. My favorite places are the Leap, Woodfords and the High Sierra. No kidding about the "big guns" either, in fact I think Pat told me at the time you could do 30 or 40 or more pullups. And the pic Ron posted below shows em!!

RattyJ

Trad climber

Pine Grove

Mar 31, 2012 - 08:24pm PT

Roughster, like I say, you totally missed the mark on that one.
Ron is talking about the Sumner guides being the most significant guides for the Tahoe area to date, which they still are. Before those guides, there was little to nothing. Then they came out opening up whole new realms of climbing and solidified the cleaner style and adventurous nature of the routes in the region with essays on style and ethics. Many routes and areas have come about since then and a little here and a little there has been added to the various books over the years, but nothing so profound as going from nothing to a full feature guide with a bible of information. That would be pretty hard to top, and yes, timing had everything to do with it.

Many climbs if climbed today by the EXACT same people at the same age would be totally different. Why?? Because the style, protection, access to protection, and the cost of climbing was different then. Things weren't better BITD, they were simply BITD. Most of the routes were developed to the style at the time, but that doesn't mean that somehow that style is superior or that they got it right.

You're right about that. But those aren't the only reasons. Alot had to do with keeping the route as clean as possible. Of course ego came into play as well, as it still does (think, people who find new areas [sugarloaf] and put up as many routes as they can squeeze in, good or not) but it was more about a good adventure with a bit of risk thrown in for fun. Today you find people on the extremes of both sides of the "old school" style. On one hand you have people putting up extremely bold and difficult routes, far beyond what people did BITD. On the other hand you have people who want convenience and protection to rarely go below ones feet.
I think as far as the leave as little trace as possible ethic, they got it right. Bolt ladders through a 5.6 section on a 5.10 climb isn't really benefiting anyone. On the other hand, generalizing and saying everything was better BITD is down right retarded.

If they develop an invisible no hole protection that allows lead climbing on "crackless" faces on friable rock, should my generation say that the routes put up in the 90s and 00s should be left with the bolts in the wall as a tribute to the past?

Whats your argument? Are you saying because we now have massive amounts of bolts, power drills and rap bolting is acceptable it would be silly not to go retro bolt every route where adequate bolts/protection wasn't used? They had tons of bolts BITD too. They could have rap bolted if they wanted to. It was all about good style and fair means.

Oh well, arguments of this nature will be over in the next 20-30 years, and I think for the betterment of the climbing community as a whole. If you're wondering about why 20-30, most likely if you are reading this thread, take your current age and add 20-30...

I don't think so. These debates have been going on for 100 years. Like I say, things are splitting into two extremes. The younger generation is actually getting bolder and embracing clean ethics and good style. Just the other day I heard a kid, no older than 12 joke about their gym being lame because they have lead bolts next to the cracks and the bolts are too close. I'm sure there will be areas and routes with the best of both worlds working in perfect harmony. I think what will go away are the scores of junk routes put up on chossy, mossy, garbage walls. The cost of bolts and hangers in 30 years will be a fortune. What you'll see is people salvaging the steel from these crappy never climbed routes to use on more worthy adventures. Its already started in a few places out here. Someone grid bolted some chossy junk, and about 10 years later the hangers started to disappear.

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 1, 2012 - 12:44am PT

Mr Anderson, Mr Sumner, Chalky Foreskin, and all the BITD crew.
If you don't like my routes tell me why and I will take the down.
All I ask is specifics and some sort of consensus.

If it bothers you that much then step up for what you believe.

Can I make my position any clearer?

a

Chalky Fingers

climber

Apr 1, 2012 - 04:34pm PT

Smegma, I have already told you to your face what I feel is wrong about said routes, so start taking them down. Much appreciated.

Scott Thelen

Trad climber

Truckee, Ca

Apr 1, 2012 - 09:49pm PT

Paint the hangers

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2012 - 12:54am PT

Ron,
I have to hand it to you, that's the best thought out piece Ive seen you post here. You and I are not as different as you think. Only I've been up there seeing possibilities for the last 20 years, and you left the place 20 years ago. I understand the aesthetics and the history,I just don't necessarily agree with you on it.
Again, specifics: If the goal was to leave Tapestry as untouched as possible, cut Crushed Velvet to half length and erase Blue Velvet. BV bolted up the lower 1/3 of Tapestry not CV.
I would not object. Nor would I to putting the classic Telesis (actually "swamp thing") back to it's original very bold line.
a

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2012 - 01:00am PT

Oh, and Chalky Foreskin................
I have no idea who you are or what the f*#k you said to my face unless it was "hey brother wanna beer?", in which case the answer is yes.

give me your mailing address and I'll ship you some Vaseline to help with the dryness..

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Apr 2, 2012 - 01:10am PT

At very least distinguish the bolts of Tapestry.

I went up there one day to climb the route. Got way the f*#k up there and couldn't find the bolts. That Carville guide is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!

Anyway, my belayer was down there pickin his nose and didn't have me on yet as I was going to crater anyway. So I ended up clipping bolts from Blue Velvet as it lies just to the left of the natural passage way through that face. I clipped one and moved back right to try and find the original bolts. Nothing happening, so I bailed back onto Blue Velvet and finished on that lousy route. If you follow the natural passageway, Blue Velvet is like mere feet from the path. If anything, I'd say that is the retro. Not a good route anyway. Ever climb the upper pitches? Gets progressively worse. You're making 5.10 moves two feet from 5.6 buckets. Talk about weak sauce.

If the original bolts of Tapestry were easily distinguished, at very least I could have seen them and made the judgement call of "maybe" or "oh hell no".

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Apr 2, 2012 - 12:15pm PT

I wasn't going to enter this debate again but their are a few corrections of the record i think maybe helpful.Besides Tapestry their are several other routes from bitd in the same vein- Pigs on the wing 5.10x, Beer Can Alley (original) 5.10r/x(my leads), Pearl Pillar 5.10x (Dexter), and a couple in woodfords canyon the most prominent being a 3 pitch slab route right of the waterfall at the bottom of the canyon we called Senior Center Slab 5.10x (miller). Any of these routes could have been reduced in seriousness by bolting, we knew how to rappel and how to place bolts but we didn't because on our good days we were capable of climbing at this level absent protection and we wanted a few climbs to stand as a challenge for those in the future. In other words they were deliberate not an accident because of lack of equipment or know how.Aiden seems like an honorable man and he seems to be getting the point that a route that uses the same protection points and some of the same holds/path is not a new route. I know of at least 4 repeats of Tapestry in its original form and i can tell you definitively no 2 people used the exact same combination of holds, or even the exact same path, but rather what they found to be the path of least resistence on their particular ascent.I have faith that Aiden will restore the route to its original form (hopefully with new two 3/8" bolts to replace the 35+ year old 1/4" bolts)

Chalky Fingers

climber

Apr 2, 2012 - 01:36pm PT

Hey Aiding, I'm Tad. Talk about internet tough guys. You take the cake. When we had these talks you stood there like a puppy with his tail between his legs rolling on its back and peeing himself. The last conversation we had on the subject at the base of Surrealistic you needed a woman to get you out of the conversation so you could bid a hasty retreat. That was when I asked you about you lying on the internet saying you had planned on putting a route up on lead after you had placed rap bolts next to a crack to put the route "down" on rap. Cowardly people make cowardly climbers.

P.S. I would NEVER offer you a beer!

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Apr 2, 2012 - 02:38pm PT

I have faith that Aiden will restore the route to its original form (hopefully with new two 3/8" bolts to replace the 35+ year old 1/4" bolts)

Can't wait for the guy who did the 'FA' of Blue Velvet to start a thread about his route being chopped. Would be major LULZ.

Jon Taylor

Trad climber

Gardnerville

Apr 2, 2012 - 02:58pm PT

Despite the interesting comments i will have to say adieu as well...aiden

Here are a few photos, notice that in one I am in Galibier Superguides while Mr. Sumner is in a ratty old pair of EBs (I think he stole em from Dexter) while bouldering at the Pie Shop in stylish flannel shirt and jeans...so Cute

These are pretty early - late 70- early 80 or so

There are also some pics of a very early up of Vanishing Point with Bill Todd in the lead (I am not sure either a first or second Rick?, Jim Orey may have gotten there first) Sorry for the poor quality (scanned in), we had to put Todd in the lead for that big reach around the roof.

Also (Aiden you may have fun here) there are some pics of Jay Smith and I down at Bear River Resvr (Late 70s/early 80s) (Hwy 88) which to my knowledge has not seen any action at all, most head for Calaveras). Perfect Flat Stone campground, fresh water, short walk...

Ron I found those pics, I will scan em and post over at the "Golden Age Thread"

Aiden, we still love ya man...

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2012 - 03:11pm PT

Oh Chalky your such a tease!
Despite your harsh tone I can feel the love emanating through your playful words. I do remember the day we talked. You told my lovely female friend to "shut the f*#k up", then we slapped each other on the back like long lost bothers and laughed heartily.
Ahhh.... those were the days. I certainly hope your well and that the dumpster diving business has been good to you?
I look forward to hearing more of your dulcet tones in the future when we meet again.
Call me next time you need bailing out
Lovingly,
a xx

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Apr 2, 2012 - 08:44pm PT

I'm fine with the proposal, but I won't be the one to chop bolts except on my own routes.
Like I said, some sort of consensus would be good

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Apr 2, 2012 - 10:15pm PT

did vanishing point originally
surmount the roof?

i understand the roof
to be third stone from the sun,
and separate from vanishing point.

the logical route
to me would be the wide
crack of the vanishing point
dihedral into the
roof crack.

either way,
it is all very good
climbing up there.

rick sumner

Trad climber

reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska

Apr 2, 2012 - 11:34pm PT

Congratulations gentlemen, we seem to have reached a consensus and Aiden seems to have agreed to restore Tapestry. Aiden the first bolt was a few moves up the start of the steep section at the first drillable stance and as high as Bill's 6'-2" stance would allow.The second bolt was way to high off the deck (approx. 110'). I'm sure Todd's ghost would smile approvingly at your action. Ron i'll give you some info on our Woodfords (early to mid 70's) activities on our upcoming trip. John has agreed to come also.As for Vanishing Point, it was originally 5.10 A-1- the A-1 being a point of aid exiting to the left at the first overhang well below the Third Stone roof. John you, i, and Todd did it free in 1975, not the late 70's.

caughtinside

Social climber

Davis, CA

Apr 2, 2012 - 11:58pm PT

There is no consensus. Please don't remove the two Velvets.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Apr 3, 2012 - 12:26am PT

nah, cut all of them BUT after June please. I still want to get a little stronger and try them out ; )

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Apr 3, 2012 - 02:25am PT

Vanishing point cuts out left under the first big roof at the pin.
I've climbed the whole roof system going out right and exiting just to the right of Third Stone Offwidth. I remember it being somewhat spooky as it's too wide for cams and you really gotta lieback hard into a pod. Then you have to still exit that pod with no gear across the face a few moves to a small ledge. Maybe 5.10b... the exit Rigth of Third Stone is like 5.11 flaring and awkward for a move or two.

Third Stone is a total different route all together and never intersects Vanishing Point. It starts up a mildly loose right facing corner about 15ft right of Vanishing Point. Two pitches. Don't stop at the sling belay on the horn. Continue up to just under the roof and belay at a sling belay here. The Third Stone roof is the obvious gaping maw, dead horizontal offwidth distinguished by it's three distinctly different chockstones that all roll in different directions. The three chockstones are visible from the ground. Visible from the campground in fact. It's about equal difficulty as getting into the Harding Slot on Astroman. The .10c grade is not an accurate representation for what you'll encounter.

John Taylor, cool seeing the old photos of Bear River. That is a place that sees little traffic but has had a fair bit of new routes go up over the past decade or so. I know the route in your photo. Starts on a large chockstone wedged down in the river between two domes. The bolts are falling out of the wall... literally. The anchor is a crusty bolt with some white webbing of which the other bolt of the anchor has fallen out and is dangling off of. I wouldn't hang my chalk bag off it. I had to bail out right along a ledge with a 100ft solo to reach a good anchor spot. Do you remember the name of the route or did you give it one? How about the Domes? You know who climbed the big dihedral on the large dome way in the back of the canyon opposite of where your photos were taken? I always assumed it was Jay Smith. Curious minds want to know.

I've been climbing out there for a while now. Put up about 15 routes so far. All ground up and bolted on lead. Everything from 5.6 to 5.12.
The place has always had that adventurous feel. No guidebooks, just a few scattered pages of scribble here and there.
There were a bunch of yahoos grid bolting a wall out there a few years ago. They paved over a couple old routes that had no fixed gear and pissed off some of the long time residents. Needless to say, a bunch of crap got the chop and I took the heat. They were pissed because we chopped all the bolts they placed next to cracks. Go figure!!! They're lucky any bolts were left at all on the retroed routes. Anyway, that's all sorted out now and the place still has that remote, adventurous feel.

Norwegian

Trad climber

Placerville, California

Apr 3, 2012 - 08:51am PT

sal,
i've been up the first pitch of 3rd stone
but i flailed on the roof. no send.

im keen for another try,
with a new plan of attack.

i'll trade you a route for a route,
if you join me on the third,
i'll hold your rope and follow you up whatever you choose.

you done up from the skies yet?
the leap season is not far off.

Jon Taylor

Trad climber

Gardnerville

Apr 3, 2012 - 11:15am PT

John Taylor, cool seeing the old photos of Bear River. That is a place that sees little traffic but has had a fair bit of new routes go up over the past decade or so. I know the route in your photo. Starts on a large chockstone wedged down in the river between two domes. The bolts are falling out of the wall... literally. The anchor is a crusty bolt with some white webbing of which the other bolt of the anchor has fallen out and is dangling off of. I wouldn't hang my chalk bag off it. I had to bail out right along a ledge with a 100ft solo to reach a good anchor spot. Do you remember the name of the route or did you give it one? How about the Domes? You know who climbed the big dihedral on the large dome way in the back of the canyon opposite of where your photos were taken? I always assumed it was Jay Smith. Curious minds want to know.

I've been climbing out there for a while now. Put up about 15 routes so far. All ground up and bolted on lead. Everything from 5.6 to 5.12.
The place has always had that adventurous feel. No guidebooks, just a few scattered pages of scribble here and there.
There were a bunch of yahoos grid bolting a wall out there a few years ago. They paved over a couple old routes that had no fixed gear and pissed off some of the long time residents. Needless to say, a bunch of crap got the chop and I took the heat. They were pissed because we chopped all the bolts they placed next to cracks. Go figure!!! They're lucky any bolts were left at all on the retroed routes. Anyway, that's all sorted out now and the place still has that remote, adventurous feel.

Smith and i went down for like two or three weekends early 70-ish, mostly we were between the domes, but made a foray down to the dihedral as it is quite obvious. Started late in the day but did not finish, Jay may have gone back later but we just went down to take a look. Generally Jay did not spend too much time down there as Calaveras was close and quite a bit bigger. That's about all I know. Nice place really I thought, easy to get to with a lot of opportunity. We never placed any bolts, pins dropped behind flakes, nuts etc....We never gave anything any names just wanted to get away from the crowds a bit so this was just for fun...We put up like 10-ish climbs but mainly we were just scoping the place out.

213

climber

Where the Froude number often >> 1

Apr 4, 2012 - 02:38am PT

There is no consensus. Please don't remove the two Velvets.

I agree with caughtinside's sentiments.

But, by all means, feel free to skip the bolts! Or better yet, leave the rope at home and move upwards with the best style. Who will argue with that?

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Apr 4, 2012 - 03:00am PT

Weege, I'll take you up on that offer. Even if it's just to watch you send that beastly roof.

I climbed the first pitch of Up From the Skies, but starting the second pitch I couldn't reach the aid bolts to gain the face. After the feature known as the "rats tooth" fell off, you can't get out there far enough to clip those manky bolts. Alas, I have a plan! It includes working an alternate "free" start complete with crap drill stances, possible hooking and much flailing graceless whipping. Of course, I could use a cheater stick. But that's ghey and I will have no part. Unless plan (A) fails.

Cool!!!
I climbed that corner last year and found bail slings about half way up. Nothing higher was found. We had to place rappel anchors to retreat so doubt he ever made it back up there. We pushed the line another pitch (.10r) with at least one more stretcher to the top yet to do.
Someone was out there placing bolts way back when as I have found several lines with some pretty crusty bolts on them. The line in your photos has about 5 bolts on it that look to be about the oldest line I've found so far. You sure ya'll didn't place any bolts? That line is pretty protectionless and hard for about 160ft.
Nope, I take that back. I found a crack system with a square machine nut bashed in tight. There was an old ratty piece of three strand nylon rope through it wedged back in the crack. That may pre date any Leepers.

dustonian

climber

Apr 4, 2012 - 10:02am PT

He wants consensus, so I guess it's worth giving an opinion. Mine is please stop bolting over existing routes and rap-bolting at old crags with decades-long traditions of ground-up first ascents. What you are doing is pretty shameful in my book and belongs off in the woods, alone, on some lesser pile than historical Sugarloaf. Have the decency to chop your own ignominies before your reputation is sealed for good. If you're going ground-up on new terrain at the Loaf then the bolts are fine, otherwise...

213

climber

Where the Froude number often >> 1

Apr 4, 2012 - 11:59am PT

Whether you keep the routes in question or restore the old, telling others to skip the bolts is never the real answer, it's just a cutesy rationale for doing what you want to do.

"All climbing is anarchy and you can do as you please."
-Scott Backes

Of course, if you rap bolt, or squeeze, you will find opposition to your actions (case in point). Stop rap bolting, stop squeezing! Unless it is truly an honest independent and aesthetic line, leave it be. Plenty of rocks to probe out on in the range.

Either way, I guess we'll see Jebus, way up (and out) there, sans cord, in the best style, looking cutesy? :)

213

climber

Where the Froude number often >> 1

Apr 4, 2012 - 12:09pm PT

Hehe, well-said, mister Jebus.

Folks must stop pooping on the loaf!

RattyJ

Trad climber

Pine Grove

Apr 5, 2012 - 11:31pm PT

Wow, how cool to see those old photos of bear river domes. I've been climbing out there for several years now and could count the number of climbers I've seen on one hand. It's still the kind of place where when you see another group climbing, you go out of your way to meet them.

Theres alot of great routes in there. 800ft slab routes from 5.6 to 5.10+, a bunch of one and two pitch routes, slabs galore, cracks, a few offwidths. Most of the climbing is in the 5.6 to 5.9 range and almost everything goes on gear accept for the pure slab routes and the sport wall that Todd Offenbacher and crew grid bolted putting sport routes over old routes that went entirely on gear and bolting next to bomber cracks so they didn't have to carry in gear. Then getting all bent when their trash got cleaned up by the very people who climbed it before them. Other than that the place is a gem.

Sorry, I'm ranting.

I'm really supprised more people don't climb down in there. The swimming holes alone are worth a trip.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Apr 6, 2012 - 01:47am PT

Would love to climb there if had any information on how to get there/what routes are where, or had a friend that knew the area. I am sure there are more people like me.

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Apr 6, 2012 - 02:50am PT

Half the fun of climbing there is figuring out it's secrets on your own.
Have some adventurous spirit man. There is tons of obvious stuff that is climbable with only gear that goes at very moderate grades.
As for finding the place, Google it. There are access trails on either side of the canyon.

And....... GO!

Edited to add; Rob, let it go man. They have ceased their shenanigans. No need to be naming names, though they didn't extend that courtesy.

Stewart Johnson

climber

lake forest

Apr 6, 2012 - 09:40am PT

dont go pissing down my back and tell me its raining.

RattyJ

Trad climber

Pine Grove

Apr 6, 2012 - 04:27pm PT

Yeah well if you're going to play the game you better have the sack to stand behind your actions publicly.

Salami, why always so vague? Whats wrong with giving everybody just a little info about the place to avoid wasting a day lost looking for a trail? You know more about the ins and outs of that place than anyone, hook it up mang.

Speaking of obscure areas, hows about a little info about eagle rock as well? You were supposed to hook me up with a topo a year ago. Perhaps these areas deserve their own threads to get more people out there to enjoy them?

Salamanizer

Trad climber

The land of Fruits & Nuts!

Apr 6, 2012 - 10:11pm PT

Vague? I though I was being quite liberal with giving info. It's there, go get it. What more do you need? Besides, nobody gives a sh#t about climbing in a place like that. You have to walk more than 50ft from your car to the climbing, who's going to bother with that? On top of that, there are no topos with detailed bolt counts, well mapped out cruxes and groomed trails. I think having more people out there climbing is about the last thing that place needs.

As for Eagle Rock, same thing accept you have that 4WD trail and all the climbs are 5.11 or harder. That pretty much weeds out everyone who wouldn't go out and find the place on their own.

BTW, nice farmers tan I got going on there, thanks for sharing;)

penurn

Social climber

Gosport, Maidenhead

Apr 16, 2012 - 03:50am PT

Thanks for sharing the new routes. I especially love the names of the routes: Swallows Tale and Monkey Flower. I will definitely look at these in order to check if I can also climb there. To climb new routes is always something special and very exciting so hopefully I can do it.

Vitaliy M.

Mountain climber

San Francisco

Apr 16, 2012 - 11:33am PT

Swallow Tail is a good route.

I like figuring out things and having an adventure, but it is not that easy to convince other people to go to some random place and not even have a climb in mind...if I lived 30 minutes away, yeah I'd go and check it out on any day I am free. A bit different when I have a 4 hour drive (one way).

PS: long approaches don't bother me. 10K ft of elevation gain and 20+ miles in a day are not that bad..

Petch

Gym climber

knapsack crack

Apr 16, 2012 - 12:17pm PT

Here's a great new route. Bolted third class. You can see the first bolt below my feet and the second in between my feet.
it almost looks steep sideways

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Apr 16, 2012 - 12:25pm PT

Petch, don't be such a hater!

It's a worthy route for beginners and definitely an "independent line"...

Petch

Gym climber

knapsack crack

Apr 16, 2012 - 12:29pm PT

Hate knott. You forgot to add three year olds

Kevmn

Gym climber

Snob Franpsycho

Apr 16, 2012 - 08:20pm PT

Salmanizer, is that a beer in your chalk bag? Classic!

RattyJ

Trad climber

Pine Grove

Mar 11, 2014 - 10:42pm PT

bumping this thread to give a shout out to salaminizer who sent a new route at sugarloaf this past weekend. I belayed him while he squeaked out the ascent in an epic effort on the forth try of the day.

It's located on an obvious round 80 ft boulder above sugarloaf proper and goes at what I suspect is a very sandbagged 5.12d.

Norwegian

Trad climber

dancin on the tip of god's middle finger

Mar 12, 2014 - 06:27am PT

bitchen, sal.
good effort, as always.

you place bolts from hooks?

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2015 - 11:20am PT

Hey Chad or ?
(Not sure if I have a current email address for you so posted here)

SUGARLOAF:

1) Pan Dulce: you straightened the pitch after the 10d bolted blunt arete with one bolt? Does the route go in 1 pitch to the top from the top of the 10d pitch or 2 ? Gear needed? I remember looking at the pitch you placed a bolt on and thinking above the roof there was no bolts of gear, but....?

2) Beast of Burden: Ever done the 5.9R additional 45 feet to the top? Was it an add-on or was the original chopped?

3) Tapestry: Think me/you should go up with a bottle of nail polish and paint the 2 bolts to make clear what is that route?.

4) Ghost in The Machine: End of P1 /start of P2 still needs straightening (I received a thumbs up from Drummond few years ago who said he bailed Right to Bolee Gold anchor out of mental exhaustion not on the basis of his vison for the line)

5) "Pyramid Rock" on the way to Sugarloaf: Jay's (who passed away last year) route need completing. I've spoke with Ron Vardenaga and Charlie Down's about it. I plan on dropping the burnt out tree draped over it and finishing it. Bolts on lead as he had started and route name and creds to him. Your thoughts?

SPIRES:

1) Ever do Beast of No Nation (the old Harrison direct TR on back of Upper Spire but with a different finish and it;s own anchor). Good route. I was wondering what you thought the grade. 11d I though but...?

2) Have you done the 2 pitch arete route right of Fear of Flying. Second pitch is one of the best at the Spires I think. Never gets done. Fist pitch I made a direct start and replaced old bolts on it a couple of years ago. Probably 11b if done direct instead of original start out of F of F

See you around
Aidan

Stewart Johnson

climber

lake forest

Jan 29, 2015 - 01:49pm PT

I said I wouldn't ever climb there again
That was dumb
Plenty of climbs to choose from
Fantastic climbing down memory lane
Although a pitiful state the surrounding forest is in!

Only saw one other party yesterday!

Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?

Trad climber

Wanker Stately Mansion, Placerville

Topic Author's Reply - Jan 30, 2015 - 06:22pm PT

Anyone?

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