Pearl Harbor remembered 70th anniversary!

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Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 9, 2012 - 04:01am PT
I have to agree with karl baba above. The Japanese set out to copy the West after Admiral Perry shot his way into their consciousness, and they realized they would have to compete or become a western colony like China, Indo China and the Phillipines. They modeled their army on the Prussians and their Navy on the British. Repeatedly they were told that to be taken seriously as a world power they would need an empire. The British in particular trained them to aspire to that.

America later hypocritically set out to block their efforts decrying colonialism while we occupied the Phillipines and backed the British, French and Dutch in Indo China along with the treaty ports in mainland China. We welcomed Chinese and Japanese laborers to Hawaii and the West Coast and then passed the Oriental Exclusion Act, something they still resent.

As for Pearl Harbor, a student of mine told me over 30 years ago that her father was a sailor stationed in Honolulu just before Pearl Harbor and the rank and file were placing bets in the bars on their off time as to when they would be attacked. They were only surprised by the ferocity and thoroughness of it all.

Seeing how young our sailors on the deck of the USS Ward looked, I was reminded of teaching last term at a Marine Corps expeditionary base on Okinawa up by the jungle warfare training area. Those guys looked just as young as he WWII sailors, even though many of them have done two or three tours in the Middle East already. Some of these veterans were so easily distracted by the giggly young female Marines in the class that I had to make the girls sit on one side and the easily distracted guys on the other. Married marines occupied the middle. War heroes and kids all at the same time. It never changes.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 9, 2012 - 08:02am PT
I wonder how our tankers felt about this.

The M4 Sherman was known as the "Ronson" (lights every time) "Tommycooker" and "Burning Grave"

The low velocity 75 mm gun was only effective against German tanks from the side or rear.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=40
Park Rat

Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2012 - 08:56am PT
Lt, Peter Stern circa 1944
Lt, Peter Stern circa 1944
Credit: Park Rat


(Park Rat, with all due respect the Norden didn't increase your chances of coming back from a mission it only increased the chances that you would hit the target you were sticking your neck out for.)

The reason I mentioned the bomb site was that it did save many lives.

Each time the men went out on a mission if they failed to reach the target or the bombs were off target two things could happen.

If they failed to reach the target they would have to be sent out again on another mission. If they reached the target but failed to hit the intended target, often a rail yard or bridge they would have to go back on a second mission to complete the job.

If the the bombardier had trouble lining up his drop site, as they did before the Norten came along. The bomb group would be forced to go around the target and make his second run. It was this second runs that often proved the most fatal, as the gunners on the ground now were prepared to shoot down the incoming bombers.

Every second over a target that is shooting at you can be fatal. That is why I mentioned the Norten it really did save lives because it was so accurate that the men did not have to risk their lives on a second or third go-round.

I hope that explains why I mentioned it. If you would like to know more about my husband's bomb group. See the 320th bomb group website. His squadron was the 442. There were four squadrons stationed together to make up 320th.

I'm including some pictures from the website. The 4 ship box picture was something my husband talked a great deal about. He felt it was the safest formation to be an during the combat. The closer the planes flew together the safer they were. because they could cover each other with their guns if they were attacked by fighter planes.

This was called a four ship box.
This was called a four ship box.
Credit: Park Rat
The 26, the Martin marauder, also known as the flying prostitute, as i...
The 26, the Martin marauder, also known as the flying prostitute, as it was said not to have any visible means of support.
Credit: Park Rat
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 6, 2013 - 09:29am PT
Tomorrow is Decmber 7th.

I saw recently,SCUBA divers, went down to a shipwreck of a tug that had sunk 3 days before and found a man alive and brought him to the surface alive.

It brought me to mind of the USS OKLAHOMA. After the attack, there were silors alive inside, banging away, they couldn't get at all of them, eventually the banging stopped.

During the war, they raised the vessel they recovered the bodies, they found a diary, I read somewhere it was scratched into the hull. After the war, they towed the ship and lost it. Last I heard, it's still on the top ten list of WW2 wrecks as yet not found.

What I can't seem to find, is a rocord of the diary. Seems like it should be an important part of the memorial.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 6, 2013 - 09:32am PT
Remember it well. Tried to crawl out of my crib and enlist but was told i had to wait until i was potty trained.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2013 - 09:45am PT
Park Rat, the B-26 was somewhat maligned because it was not as forgiving of
ham-fisted n00bs as most bombers were. It handled more like a large fighter
and rewarded those capable of utilizing its abilities while punishing those
who weren't up to the task. An acquaintance was working on one found in a
Canuckian peat bog after the ferry crew ran it out of gas on the way to Alaska.
It only had 40 hours on it. Unfortunately I never got to fly it. :-(





Just yesterday it was announced that the U of Hawaii had discovered an I-400.

"At nearly 400 feet long, the I-400 and its two sister ships were the largest submarines ever built before the nuclear age.

The I-400 was one of five Japanese submarines captured by the U.S. Navy at the end of World War II and sent to Hawaii for examination, the school said.

With tensions rising between the Soviet Union and the United States after the war, the Navy scuttled the ships to avoid their advanced technology falling into the hands of the Soviet navy in what would become one of the first intrigues of the Cold War."

So if we were towing it to Hawaii why did we suddenly become afraid the
Rooskies were gonna nab it? I smell a fish.

I-400 Sub found off Hawaii
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 6, 2013 - 10:15am PT
I did see that. There's also contoversy as to the location of the 5th midget and whether a midget fired one of the torpedoes that sank the OKLAHOMA. It's a shame the Vets are passing taking so much with them.

The IJN, had a greater variety of submarines than all the other navies combined. Where other navies would build many in a "class", many IJN vessels were built unique.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/ss.htm

jammer

climber
Dec 6, 2013 - 11:58am PT
DMT,

I couldn't disagree more strongly, your daughters need to know all the horrors of war, recent and past conflicts.

Certainly you are not suggesting being ignorant of history?

I have made a hobby of reading about the wars, and was recently in Munich, visiting an injured friend, and couldn't help but feel angry towards Germany, and all the violence that generated from that one small country.

My GF, was wondering why I was getting depressed, "I said just looking around here, makes me think of all the horrors, (WW1, WW2, Holocaust) this country has created."

She answered,"what are you talking about, it's beautiful here....What horrors?

Anyway, it's important we know about war, so young people are not ready to throw their life away to appease the mega wealthy, to maim and kill innocent people over oil and resources.

And particularly so you can see people like Fatty, as the clue-less drones they are, confusing religious and regional resource protection as one and the same, and believing in a one true God, who righteously deserves it all. Rather than letting others have their own beliefs and freedoms, their fair share of resorses, etc. We are pulling out of Iraq now simply because the Bush administration, religious crusade to save the Muslims from themselves, has failed, leaving the USA with 1500 dead, and 32,000 wounded, and close to a 1,000,000 dead Iraqis.

So, yes teach your children well, and teach them of the dead, it's the only way war will end. Shed a tear for all the men and women who sacrificed their lives, so they would have hope for a more peaceful world, and not one were the living forget and mitigate their great suffering.

Deserves to be said again. Also, you guys do realize you don't have to read posts that you don't want to, right? I personally have a hard time swallowing that higher ups had no clue. They were purposely provoking Japan to get Japan to attack. Do you really think they were in the dark as to the nature of the attack and when it would come? Military strategy pretty much dictates that these things would have been plain as day to anyone looking at the whole board, and we have a very very good intelligence operation going on in this country. One of the best in the world, in fact. They would have used a Bayesian model, which would have put a tremendous probability on an attack at Pearl Harbor, probably somewhere near 100%. At the very least they EXPECTED it to happen...

Anyone know, did the "greatest generation" get boned after WW II like my generation got boned after 911? Gee, wonder why they have such a great attitude about America, wheras my generation thinks very differently...
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Dec 6, 2013 - 12:25pm PT
Just curious, has anything ever occurred in history that did not involve a government conspiracy?

Curt
jammer

climber
Dec 6, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
Everyone here should read "The Theory That Would Not Die: how bayes rule cracked the enigma code, hunted down russian submarines and emerged triumphant from two centuries of controversy", by Sharon Bertsch McGrayne. I promise it is interesting.

Bayesian statistical theory has a very interesting history in this country. It is what our government uses to make predictions, yet openly academically shunned by many people, especially in the past. Luckily, due to it's applications in all of science, were are not in the dark about it. It's really interesting stuff.
jammer

climber
Dec 6, 2013 - 12:33pm PT
Curt, how does the Navy use Bayesian statistical theory?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 6, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Just curious, has anything ever occurred in history that did not involve a government conspiracy?

No. Your decision to have Wheaties this morning. You think that just happened?
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Dec 6, 2013 - 01:24pm PT
Curt, how does the Navy use Bayesian statistical theory?

I have no idea. See how easy that is? I simply admit when I don't know something, instead of making something up.

Curt
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 6, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
I think it's a safe bet that Wheaties are a conspiracy.

Credit: Ksolem


Sugar plus corn syrup? And that BHT stuff gives me hives.

Sorry for the thread drift. I wonder how those old Nevada class ships would have fared in an open sea battle against the Japanese fleet? They would have been fully crewed too...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 6, 2013 - 01:37pm PT
Corn syrup IS a government conspiracy.

As for the Nevada class battleships, the battleship was already obsolete in 1941. Billy Mitchell had already proven that, they just didn't realize it yet. What happened to Repulse and Prince of Wales should have made that point very obvious.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Dec 6, 2013 - 02:00pm PT
Along with what happened to the DKM Battleship Bismark. Already obsolete bi-planes hit her with a torpedo and jammed her rudder, so she was a sitting duck for the whole British fleet to pounce on and sink in the Bay of Biscay.

Each new war is always initially being fought with the outmoded weapons and tactics of the previous war. That is, until someone comes along with a new tactic like Blitzkrieg and takes all the marbles. Submarines, air-power and aircraft carriers were already the way of the future while the Great Powers were still pouring all their treasure into big floating gun platforms called battleships.

Too bad we weren't paying better attention when those British Swordfish torpedo-bombers trashed the Italian fleet at Taranto. However, the Japanese were paying very, very close attention and planned their attack on Pearl Harbor accordingly. I still have some newspaper clipping in a scrapbook with pics of Arizona all lit up for Fleet Week in Seattle. Pearl Harbor must have been a real shocker.

By the way, my late aunt's first BF is still entombed down in the Arizona. The Pacific Fleet was the pride of the whole West Coast from Bremerton, WA to San Diego, CA, so the Japanese attack real hit civilian morale very hard.
jammer

climber
Dec 6, 2013 - 02:35pm PT
I think it's a safe bet that Wheaties are a conspiracy. Sugar plus corn syrup? And that BHT stuff gives me hives.

Sorry for the thread drift. I wonder how those old Nevada class ships would have fared in an open sea battle against the Japanese fleet? They would have been fully crewed too...

Sad to say this one is true, part of the processed foods you buy everyday, the profits of which find themselves eventually to military contractors selling fertilizer so farmers can keep overproducing corn and wasting away the top-soil. These profits are then invested politically to further disenfranchise us. That's just a fact. That is how populism has been effectively laid dormant in American politics. So funny as it is, there really is a "conspiracy", dun dun dun, or fact trail there. You can read about that in "The Omnivores Dilemma" by Michael Pollan.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 6, 2013 - 02:52pm PT
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 6, 2013 - 03:30pm PT
I posted these photos before but whatever. Pulled my kid from school to show him these planes. There were old guys who had clearly flown in them in World War 2 who were having trouble moving around, touching stuff, etc. All quite heavy.


Credit: ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Credit: ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Credit: ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 6, 2013 - 04:02pm PT
Didn't the Japanese build some huge submarine floatplane aircraft carriers with the intent on bombing the Panama Canal?



EDIT
Took a while to load the link.
Yup. Its one of 'em.
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