Pearl Harbor remembered 70th anniversary!

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Park Rat

Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
Topic Author's Original Post - Dec 7, 2011 - 07:38am PT
The beginning of World War II for America.

I was born nine months after Pearl Harbor.

It amazes me how much the world has changed in the last 70 years.

Our old enemies are now some of our best friends.

I doubt that any one would've guessed that outcome on December 7, 1941.



I love this picture. So WWII
I love this picture. So WWII
Credit: Park Rat


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nt13c3olXkU The Attack
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 7, 2011 - 09:43am PT
Just one of the amazing events that brought our nation to it's feet...when men, women and children united for a singular cause and saved the world from unspeakable tyranny.

Props to the Greatest Generation.....and may the souls lost at Pearl Harbor forever rest in peace......
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 7, 2011 - 09:43am PT
How much evidence exists that we knew about the impending attacks before they happened?

The evidence exists. Books have been written.


We should look into the evidence.


Should we have gotten into WW2? Of course we should have. Did we have to get in that way? No.
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 7, 2011 - 09:55am PT
I did a bit of work in Honolulu over the last decade and frequently stayed at the hotel attached to the Ala Moana shopping center, as they offered good business rates and it was away from the crush of Waikiki. Very convenient.

Lots of other business folk there, such as the cast and crew of Lost.

Anyway, a few years back I was there in early December and the hotel hosted the Dec. 7 bombing vets convention. I recall a lot of press in the papers about them, their dwindling numbers, etc. They were old guys of course, some spry, many infirm. I could tell their ranks were greatly thinned.

I read that this year is likely their last reunion - there are too few of them left, in too poor health, to make it a viable gathering anymore.

I chatted with several guys I randomly encountered, in the lobby, in the elevators. Nothing weighty, worldly or gushy - more 'howyadoin?' kind of stuff. Not disrespectful but its not my way to probe people about ancient battles and such. I treated them with the same deference and respect I try to show to any senior citizen.

They were kids really, when it all happened. No different than me, when I was 18. They did their jobs as best they could. They lived while others died and I was glad to see them gathering to remind themselves it had all been real.

DMT
gunsmoke

Mountain climber
Clackamas, Oregon
Dec 7, 2011 - 11:18am PT
"A date which will live in infamy" is rapidly fading from culture. Although this will be the last major anniversary for most of those vets of WWII that remain (and there are still tens of thousands), Google has no acknowledgment in today's Google logo. This thread is gaining barely one post per hour. WWII is becoming merely history now, as is WWI. One wonders if 9-11 was the end of December 7.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Dec 7, 2011 - 11:33am PT
Jeezus Klimmer. NO ONE new EVERYTHING bout ANYTHING and they never have or will...Let your 12-7 theories rest..

This day long ago, set in motion the greatest generation of cooperation and focus that this country has ever seen. It propelled us into "super systems" of production the world had never seen. It wanst just about soldiers sailors and airmen, it was the WHOLE country. Car manufacturers turned their factory's into bomber making plants producing a bomber every few hours at one point! Food stamp rationing, gas rationing, silk etc etc! It was an orchestration of a magnitude never seen before or since...Thats why they ARE the greatest generation!
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 7, 2011 - 11:49am PT
Yo, Klim, there was evidence that it was coming but generals don't get to be
generals by being proactive and sticking their necks out. Besides, while it
was a tactical victory for the Japs it was a strategic loss by their missing
the carriers and awakening the giant. Yes, the loss of 2400 souls hurt but,
not to downplay it, that was the reaper's count in the first 30 minutes at Tarawa.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Dec 7, 2011 - 11:53am PT
HINDSIGHT is ALWAYS 20/20.....pppffffft.


monolith

climber
berzerkly
Dec 7, 2011 - 11:59am PT
Even if we were prepared, and no ships sunk, it would still have been war.

The idea that we needed to suffer a huge loss to get us into the war is stupid.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Dec 7, 2011 - 12:03pm PT
There was NEVER a "PLAN" to suffer a huge loss to get us into that war...
monolith

climber
berzerkly
Dec 7, 2011 - 12:06pm PT
I agree, not even a need for such a plan. Thats why the conspiracy droids like Klimmer are not very bright.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Dec 7, 2011 - 12:08pm PT
doh!~ Gotcha....;-)
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Dec 7, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
Sure there was plenty of evidence that the Japanese were planning to do something. Hawaii was certainly a possible target. There apparently were warnings of various degree of reliability for San-Francisco, Seattle, Alaska and other places.

Each took defensive steps. Pearl and the Airbase took steps (unfortunately some couter-productive ones) Japan declaring war was not a surprise at all.

The exact method they used WAS a surprise to both US and the Japanese. It did not go down exactly as planned.

My next door neighbor was 14 living on Oahu the day it happened. She remembers the Zeros flying over and the explosions and smoke she could see. The men rushing from homes getting in cars and going to the battle.

WWII marked the only time in modern history that this nation tapped its full economic potential. Take a look at the numbers sometime. The change in output is truly mindboggling. Ever since I saw the details what we did 70 years ago I have had the feeling that any economic problem this nation has is fairly artificial.


gimmeslack

Trad climber
VA
Dec 7, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
I figure we'll be buying Iraqi cars in 50 years. How cool is that!
Nohea

Trad climber
Living Outside the Statist Quo
Dec 7, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
I biked by the Arizona Memorial entrance this AM on my way to work. Looks like a pretty big gathering. Some of my students live on Ford Island so they cant make it to school till after the ceremony cuz the bridge just closed.

I remember being in the USN for the 50th, and now I teach down the road about a mile from PH. More and more we are seeing a video of the survivors but almost daily at the memorial there is a survivor taking questions and sharing stories. Those guys are pretty entertaining.

What can you say, they answered the call.

Aloha,
will
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Dec 7, 2011 - 01:05pm PT
Credit: guido
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 7, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
Article, video, and book written regarding the truth of Pearl Harbor . . .

Facts are hard to ignore.


http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/pearl/www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/pearl.html

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pearl_harbor.htm


There is another book available at Amazon.com that also goes into great detail on the truth of Pearl Harbor.

Day Of Deceit: The Truth About FDR and Pearl Harbor [Paperback]
Robert Stinnett (Author)
http://www.amazon.com/Day-Deceit-Truth-About-Harbor/dp/0743201299



That is one of the reasons PNAC said "We need a New Pearl Harbor."

And then 9-11-2001 happened.

LIHOP or MIHOP, or both LIHOP & MIHOP together. Take your pick.



"War is a Racket." -- General Smedley
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

"War is a racket. It always has been. It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives. A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small 'inside' group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes." -- General Smedley





It was right to be involved in WW2. But we didn't have to get involved through Pearl Harbor. Pearl Harbor shouldn't have happened.


Edit:

We remember those who are lost to us best, by mourning their deaths, and telling the truth of what happened, in hopes that it won't happen again.

The soldiers lives that were lost on Dec. 7th, 1941, the soldiers were not at fault. They all did their duty. They're not responsible for the Chain of Command lying and allowing this to happen, treating life as expendable.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
USA Carson city Nev.
Dec 7, 2011 - 02:25pm PT
You really have to do this to a MEMORIAL THREAD Klim? Your "theories" are all well and good (sorta) but there's a time and PLACE for them. This aint that....
Captain...or Skully

climber
Where are you bound?
Dec 7, 2011 - 03:53pm PT
It's a solemn thing to sail past the Arizona.....You feel it every time, too.
Gene

climber
Dec 7, 2011 - 03:56pm PT
Just got off the phone with Dad who told me that he and his roommate who later was a pilot at Midway and other Pacific campaigns - were in the Naval Academy photo lab developing pictures for the yearbook when the radio went silent for a while before the announcement of the attack. The Class of 1942 graduated December 19, 1941. He told me that their studies and training had been accelerated for about a year prior to 12/7/41 in anticipation of war. The war in Europe had been going on for over two years at that point. He was 20 years old at the start of US involvement in WWII and 24 at the end. He and his classmates were KIDS!! A HUGE salute to all those who served on the land, on the sea, in the air and to those who kept the home fires burning. What they did was incredible. The aggression of the Nazis, Fascists, and Empire of Japan caused the deaths of 60 to 80 MILLION.

Taco Heads - Post up photos of Dads, Uncles, Grandpas, Moms, Aunts, Grandmas who served in WWII.

Credit: Gene
Gene

climber
Dec 7, 2011 - 03:59pm PT
Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_reGRx5RiSo
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
And every fool knows, a dog needs a home, and...
Dec 7, 2011 - 04:03pm PT
"A date which will live in infamy" is rapidly fading from culture.

Good. While its important to remember the sacrifice of our fathers and grandfathers its also important to put war behind us and not turn a battle into a religious relic, a 70 year old event into the next call to arms.

Its OK that my daughters don't go all weepy eyed over it. Its expected and perfectly normal. We don't get all weepy eyed over the fallen soldiers at Shiloh or Saratoga now do we? Most folks barely pay attention to those who fell during the Korean conflict and I'd dare say Iraq, too.

DMT
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 7, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
My dad (and some other dads) on his way to the Guadalcanal mudbath.
This was the cover of a Life magazine which I have.
Credit: Reilly
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 7, 2011 - 04:10pm PT
My stepfather's brother - I guess I could call him my stepuncle - was aboard the USS Oklahoma for the attack.

Congressional Medal of Honor
FLAHERTY, FRANCIS C.
Rank and organization: Ensign, U.S. Naval Reserve. Born: 15 March 1919, Charlotte, Mich. Accredited to: Michigan. Citation: For conspicuous devotion to duty and extraordinary courage and complete disregard of his own life, above and beyond the call of duty, during the attack on the Fleet in Pearl Harbor, by Japanese forces on 7 December 1941. When it was seen that the U.S.S. Oklahoma was going to capsize and the order was given to abandon ship, Ens. Flaherty remained in a turret, holding a flashlight so the remainder of the turret crew could see to escape, thereby sacrificing his own life.

Ensign Francis Flaherty
Ensign Francis Flaherty
Credit: Navy records
US Navy CM of H
US Navy CM of H
Credit: Ksolem

Every so often I end up on this site to read a few more of the citations. You can scroll down and select WWII. You might want to have a tissue handy... http://www.history.army.mil/moh.html
Gene

climber
Dec 7, 2011 - 04:20pm PT
Good. While its important to remember the sacrifice of our fathers and grandfathers its also important to put war behind us and not turn a battle into a religious relic, a 70 year old event into the next call to arms.

Bravo!!!! Couldn't agree more. My observation is that most surviving vets hate war and who should know better?

g
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Dec 7, 2011 - 05:47pm PT
Enormous thanks to those who served and those that gave their lives...

I'll never forget them.

scott
'Pass the Pitons' Pete

Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
Dec 7, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
The Shaw, the Oklahoma, the Arizona. A proud sacrifice by Francis Flaherty.

I love the pinup girls in Park Rat's photo - the girls these days are a lot slimmer, thank goodness.

If you are ever in Hawai'i, don't miss visiting the USS Arizona memorial.

The Japanese have sometimes contended that it was a mistake regarding the International Date Line that resulted in the sneak attack, prior to declaration of war. Is there any veracity to this?

Thanks to all who served, including my dad and all three uncles.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Dec 7, 2011 - 07:13pm PT
My dad served on a carrier at the tail end of the pacific campaign, he turned 18 in February of 1945.



His older brother wasn't so lucky, his trip to Iwo Jima was one way.



Hail, Robert E, Pvt, KIA, 28th Marines, USMC

I'd never made the connection until doing some Iwo googling, but my uncle was killed shortly before my fathers 18th birthday.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 7, 2011 - 07:26pm PT
Actually Ron, although I don't hold with the Robert Stinnett theory that FDR knew about the attack, he was needling the Japanese deliberately with embargoes of critical resources as he knew that many Americans were strongly isolationist despite the fact that Nazis were already killing hundreds of American seamen.
And we were reading their coded messages faster than they were.

I hold with the school that says the Japanese started World War II, not with Pearl Harbor but with Manchuria four years earlier.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Dec 7, 2011 - 07:47pm PT
My Father, ex-pacifist and Midshipman in Her Majesty's Royal Volunteer Naval Reserve.
Frederick L Glover, Midshipman, RNVR about 1940
Frederick L Glover, Midshipman, RNVR about 1940
Credit: HighTraverse
His first posting was to one of these "Destroyers From Bases" ex US WWI destroyers.
Ex US Navy WWI destroyers
Ex US Navy WWI destroyers
Credit: HighTraverse
Roughly contemporaneous to the British V and W class destroyers they were not much liked by their new crews. They were uncomfortable and wet, working badly in a seaway. Their hull lines were rather narrow and 'herring-gutted' which gave them a vicious roll. The officers didn't like the way they handled either, since they had been built with propellors that turned the same way (2-screw ships normally have the shafts turning in opposite directions as the direction of rotation has effects on the rudder and the whole ship when manoeuvring, especially when coming alongside), so these were as awkward to handle as single-screw ships. Their turning circle was enormous, as big as most Royal Navy battleships, making them difficult to use in a submarine hunt which demanded tight manoeuvres, compounded by unreliable "chain and cog" steering gear laid across the main deck.
Pretty rough duty.

An officer at last: Lieutenant
Frederick L Glover, Lieutenant, RNVR about 1942
Frederick L Glover, Lieutenant, RNVR about 1942
Credit: HighTraverse
Final rating: Lieutenant Commander
Frederick L Glover, Lt. Commander, RNVR About 1944
Frederick L Glover, Lt. Commander, RNVR About 1944
Credit: HighTraverse
My Father served as a Lieutenant (gunnery and navigator) on a ship similar to this about 1942
Did at least two convoy duties over the top of Norway to Archangel and Murmansk
Destroyer HMS Verdun.
Destroyer HMS Verdun.
Credit: HighTraverse
Then he did coastal patrols against submarines and aircraft, mostly from various Scottish ports.
He commanded a Landing Craft Tank - Rocket at Sword Beach on D-Day.
From the Imperial War Museum. 1943
From the Imperial War Museum. 1943
Credit: HighTraverse
Then they removed the rocket launchers and he ferried supplies to the beach for several weeks before returning to a Gunboat on coastal defense.
He was still serving in 1946, commanding a Destroyer towing hulks from Normandy back to England for scrapping.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 7, 2011 - 07:48pm PT
Although my Grandfather wasn't involved in Pearl Harbor, my GF was a Navy Intelligence Officer and worked at the Pentagon.

My GF was a Russian Codebreaker during WW2. He went through many Russian language schools within the service, one of which was at Boulder, CO.

He never told us exactly what he did, due to his security oath, until the 50 years was up. And then he was happy to tell us all that he worked on.

I miss my Grandfather very much.

They are an entire generation of Heroes.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Dec 7, 2011 - 08:09pm PT
It's difficult for American/Canadians to imagine the hardship the civilians of all the other belligerent nations had to suffer.
My Uncle was a Metropolitan Policeman (London Bobby) from before The War (WWII) and throughout. On duty in London through the Blitz.
My Aunt and Uncle about 1938
My Aunt and Uncle about 1938
Credit: HighTraverse
Meanwhile my Aunt, her daughter and my Grandparents, like all unnecessary civilians, were relocated to a gate keeper's cottage in Arundel. Even though it wasn't a target, a couple of bombs fell nearby.
at Blue Doors, Arundel
at Blue Doors, Arundel
Credit: HighTraverse
My family was very lucky to not have anyone seriously injured or killed in The War. One of my Uncles was killed in The War To End All Wars (WWI)
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 7, 2011 - 08:12pm PT
Figures that Klimmer's GF was a Russian codebreaker.



(they were on our side)
guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Dec 7, 2011 - 08:21pm PT
A postcard sent from my dad, chief engineer on a tanker, picking up a load of oil from Balikpapan Borneo 3 months before Pearl Harbor. Interesting that the Dutch were already censoring mail!
Credit: guido
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Dec 7, 2011 - 08:34pm PT
May 10,. 1940, Germany invaded and soon overwhelmed Holland.
From Wikipedia
Queen Wilhelmina, her family and the government evacuated to Britain, but during the Battle of Britain her daughter Princess Juliana and her children proceeded to Ottawa, Canada.
So the Dutch government ruled the colonies from exile in England. There appears to have been 18 months of calm in the Dutch West Indies. Until the day after Pearl Harbor.
On December 8, 1941, Netherlands declared war on Japan.[10] In January the American-British-Dutch-Australian Command (ABDACOM) was formed to co-ordinate Allied forces in South East Asia, under the commander of General Archibald Wavell[11]. On the night of January 1011, 1942, the Japanese attacked Menado[12] in Sulawesi. At about the same moment they attacked Tarakan[13], a major oil extraction centre and port in the north east of Borneo. On February 27, the Allied fleet was defeated in the Battle of the Java Sea[14]. From February 28 to March 1, 1942, Japanese troops landed on four places along the northern coast of Java almost undisturbed[15]. On March 8, the Allied forces in Indonesia surrendered. The colonial army was consigned to detention camps and Indonesian soldiers were released. European civilians were interned once Japanese or Indonesian replacements could be found for senior and technical positions.

So I wonder who censored your Dad's mail in Sep 1941? I suppose the Dutch West Indies was preparing for the Japanese attack. They also wouldn't want strategic information getting to Germany.
Klimmer

Mountain climber
San Diego
Dec 7, 2011 - 10:11pm PT
Figures that Klimmer's GF was a Russian codebreaker.



(they were on our side)



Lol. Do you really think we didn't keep an eye on all of our allies during the great war, and especially even more so today?

And then it turns out right after WW2 they became a foe.


CCCccccccccccoooooooommmmmmm-oooooooooooooooonnnnnnn, geeeeeeeeeeeeeees.

(C'mon, gees)


Get real.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Where are you bound?
Dec 7, 2011 - 10:13pm PT
Common Gees?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 8, 2011 - 11:41am PT
Yeah, we kept an eye on them, but they did a better job of it.

After the White Sands test Truman got word in Europe that the "gizmo" worked so he decided to tell Stalin.
Trouble was; Stalin already knew!
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 8, 2011 - 11:53am PT
And then it turns out right after WW2 they became a foe.

They were a foe well before the war ended. Had we not met Russia at Berlin the map of Europe would have looked very different after the war...
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2011 - 11:58am PT
On 8 Dec the Secret Service was very concerned that the Japs might kill
Roosevelt on his way to the Capitol for his speech. At that time there was
a law that the government couldn't spend more than $750 on a car so the Pres
had been riding around in a regular old car. The Secret Service decided he
needed a bullet-proof job and the only one they could lay their mitts on
toute de suite was the one Treasury had confiscated from Al Capone for his tax
liability. When Roosevelt got into the car he asked his driver where the new
car had come from. After hearing the answer the ever quick-witted Roosevelt
said, "I hope Al doesn't mind."
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 8, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
At that time there was
a law that the government couldn't spend more than $750 on a car

Lets get that one back on the books!!
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 19, 2011 - 10:31am PT
Recently uncovered stash of WWII photos from The Battle of the Bulge

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2075565/Vivid-new-Battle-Bulge-photos-offer-seen-look-war-weary-soldiers-braving-frigid-weather-fight-Nazi-Germanys-major-offensive-World-War-II.html?ITO=1490
Park Rat

Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2012 - 09:08am PT
It's December 7, Pearl Harbor day.

The 71st anniversary of Pearl Harbor.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 7, 2012 - 10:36am PT
Credit: US Navy

Congressional Medal of Honor
FLAHERTY, FRANCIS C.
Rank and organization: Ensign, U.S. Naval Reserve. Born: 15 March 1919, Charlotte, Mich. Accredited to: Michigan. Citation: For conspicuous devotion to duty and extraordinary courage and complete disregard of his own life, above and beyond the call of duty, during the attack on the Fleet in Pearl Harbor, by Japanese forces on 7 December 1941. When it was seen that the U.S.S. Oklahoma was going to capsize and the order was given to abandon ship, Ens. Flaherty remained in a turret, holding a flashlight so the remainder of the turret crew could see to escape, thereby sacrificing his own life.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 7, 2012 - 10:45am PT
Interesting. I just got off the phone with my stepfather, 87, brother of Francis Flaherty. I suggested we make a trip to home depot this afternoon for some things he needs. He wondered if they would be open on Dec. 7. It took me a minute to make the connection.
Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 7, 2012 - 10:46am PT
^Those are great shares, Kris.....thanks.

Uncommon valor.
Peter Haan

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Dec 7, 2012 - 10:51am PT
Klimmer, flabbergastingly, is absolutely right, Pilgrims.

At the very very highest level, FDR and a few others were fully aware of the Japanese invasion as it was mobilized and approached. Imperial Japan was lead into attacking us by FDR along with his few planners in this. It was a very complicated and long-acting strategy to get us into the war and especially into the european theater to save, frankly, western civilization. It had not been possible to get the public and Congress to budge to engage in yet another world war, especially only twenty years after WWI. Day of Deceit is an excellent research piece on this subject; I highly recommend it. This is not some kind of bullshit hoaxy conspiracy but a very studied and researched position that many military historians have now taken. Too long to go into here; read Robert Stinnett's book.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 7, 2012 - 10:57am PT
This day isnt to debate the start of the WW, but rather to HONOR those that died during the attack on Pearl Harbor.

It was the day a country actually came together to form what would be the most concentrated efforts weve EVER taken on. From citizens to soldiers.
From the ford plant changing gears to make bombers at un believable paces- to all the familys that were under rationing to the thousands upon thousands of young brave men volunteering to crush an aggression.

Weve not since seen such efforts or orchestration...

This day is about those like Ensign Flaherty above..
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:07am PT
WWII was a good cause, but the ones after that were all bad ones, and its true that Americans venerate war and their war heros excessively. I think its essentially a TV sports mentality plus the fact that Americans dont travel much or want to know about other cultures.

I was not convinced by Robert Stinnet's book, and his book follows several others promoting the same theory. It seems to be the grandfather of the JFK assassination conspiracy and the great great grandfather of the idea that 9/11 was an inside job. To prove his point he asks the reader to take his word on various interpretations he makes of codes, but I talked to people at the national archives about it and they say he just doesnt understand the codes.

The worst thing, as it turns out, about pearl harbor and 9/11 is that they gave Americans a sense of entitlement to impose their will everywhere in the world. As I said WWII was a good cause, but the America of today is fighting bad causes and believes itself to be saving everyone else from themselves. Sorry folks but those were your grandparents who did that and you're not the same, in endless ways.
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:16am PT
What do you think about the outcome of the cold war?
Don Paul

Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:20am PT
The cold war? Depends who you ask. If you asked the vietnamese, the American War as they call it, resulted in too many lost land mines.
Borut

Mountain climber
Ljubljana, Slovenia
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:22am PT
Had we not met Russia at Berlin the map of Europe would have looked very different after the war...
Hi Chris.

This is probably not the right place to discuss this, but the American and Soviet troops did not meet in Berlin. They met much more to the West. Berlin was liberated by the Soviets.

Borut
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:31am PT
That depends on your specific definition. Americans were flying freely over Berlin in P51s while British and American aircraft and crews were free to bomb at will. I understand that the Soviets were on the ground, but we were there too. There is a reason Berlin was divided.

Don Paul, I have a Vietnamese friend - he was a business associate for a few years - who escaped the country as a boat person several years after we left. His perspective on the war and its outcome is very interesting, this thread is not the place to argue this subject.

guyman

Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
Dec 7, 2012 - 11:51am PT
71 years.... time passes so rapidly.

WE must never forget just how unprepared WE were....and what that cost.

The Men and Women who died that day paid the bill for our weakness.

To honor those who died we must never again be that lame, that weak and that clueless.

Peace
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 7, 2012 - 12:10pm PT
My mother's 10th birthday party was interrupted by the news.

My dad was on his way to Japan when the Bomb was dropped. He got lucky, all he had was occupation duty with the 5th Army Air Force. He had a pretty girlfriend over there.
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 7, 2012 - 12:18pm PT
My Mom was talking recently, about being in Shanghai as the Japanese took it over, the "Little Green Men" scurrying from house to house. She was 10. My Dad got drafted and served in the Pacific as well. So I guess both of my Parents are WW2 vets.

I was disturbed a few years ago, reading about the USS OKLAHOMA. Seems some sailors were entombed there and remained alive for about 2 weeks. No one came for them. They left something scrawled inside the hull as an account. At some point, the "OK" was towed to the United States, it was lost enroute and a touching bit of history lost.

Last I checked, the wreck remains one of the 10 most major unlocated warships of WW2.

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Dec 7, 2012 - 12:56pm PT
Dec 7, 1941
My American Mother had returned from England two years earlier on the second ship out after Britain declared war on Sept 3, 1939. The first ship out had been torpedoed with significant loss of life.

WWII was well underway in Europe. In 1940 France fell, England evacuated Dunkirk and then won the Battle of Britain. Hitler then turned east against his ally Russia. By Pearl Harbor, all of continental Europe had fallen to Germany and Italy. The bloodiest battles of the war were underway in Russia from Leningrad to Stalingrad and the Black Sea. Norway and Finland had fallen, although both countries continued a stiff armed resistance throughout the war.

Only Great Britain and Russia remained free and fighting.
My Father (formerly a pacifist) was already a Sub-Lieutenant in the Royal Navy serving as gunnery officer in a destroyer on the convoys to Russia around the NordKapp of Norway.
Midshipman Frederick Glover, RNVR ca 1941
Midshipman Frederick Glover, RNVR ca 1941
Credit: HighTraverse
Sub-Lieutenant Frederick Glover, RNVR, ca 1941
Sub-Lieutenant Frederick Glover, RNVR, ca 1941
Credit: HighTraverse
One of his first ships was a Lend Lease former American WWI destroyer
Lend Lease destroyers delivered to Great Britain.
Lend Lease destroyers delivered to Great Britain.
Credit: HighTraverse
Royal Navy Destroyer Escort in heavy seas
Royal Navy Destroyer Escort in heavy seas
Credit: HighTraverse
Bridge of Royal Navy Destroyer on convoy duty.
Bridge of Royal Navy Destroyer on convoy duty.
Credit: HighTraverse
Lend - Lease destroyers and the exchange of naval bases (why we now have a major base on Diego Garcia) were the best Roosevelt could get out of Congress.
My Grandfather, Grandmother, Aunt and Niece had been re-located from London to rural England along with about a million other non-essentials (to the war effort).
Credit: HighTraverse
John F Kennedy's father was Ambassador to Britain, until his public defeatism in the Battle of Britain caused Roosevelt to recall him.
Meanwhile America fiddled until Pearl Harbor. In those days it required Congress to declare war. As the Constitution requires.
All Europeans, even Germans and Russians, are grateful to America for finally coming to The War.

There is a reason Berlin was divided.
Berlin was divided by the London Treaty of 1944, nearly a year before it was captured by the Russians who then continued further west. The boundary of East/West Germany was approximately along the lines where The "western" ally armies met the Russians. This left Berlin occupied by and completely surrounded by the Russian army. The city was actually divided in July 1945 when the British, French and American armies occupied their sectors.

An interesting animation of the movement of armies in Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Second_world_war_europe_animation_small.gif
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 7, 2012 - 01:00pm PT
Respect for those that died, but don't get caught up in the propaganda.

The higher-ups need disastrous events like this to occur periodically throughout history, perhaps on a generational schedule. So that we all remain freaked out and will consent to endless war.

That's why the "new thing" is 9/11 and pearl harbor isn't talked about as much. It's not as useful anymore, propaganda-wise.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 7, 2012 - 01:20pm PT
Uhhmmmm ,,, Plato: "only the dead have seen the end of war".

That is absolute and ugly truth. Human natures make for greed and or opposition.


Japan and Germany had ideals to take over the world. MUCH LIKE AL-KAY-DUH and radical islam. But to in any way diminish the act of this whole country during WW11 is to forget the absolute concerted efforts of ALL the American people then.. The battles of that war are well deserved of the accolades but equally so are the efforts of a nation to come together in and industrial revolution that produced bombers every eight hours. UNBELIEVABLE
accomplishment rate un equaled to this day..Women went to work in mass- in positions that were held by such stellar folks as Rosey the Riveter! This seems to be a much over looked aspect of that war.




edit: It truly amazed me to see how 911 is remembered, some schools NOT teaching about it due to not wanting to bring up bad memories..WHAAAA????

Do we teach our children that everything is OK - and that there is no evil in the world now???

Has America become so apathetic- with the opinions that everything is OK that we now are able to so rapidly diminish the remembrance of a recent natl tragedy?

Do we just say most muslims are peaceful folks even if the radical factions now engage in war actions through the ME and other countries across the globe? Many Japanese people didnt want their radical govt attacking us. that didnt stop them.

I cant even get replies to the fact that four NICE Californians were just caught getting ready to go to afghanistan to blow up our troops-their troops.. Hardly a blip on the news now- Apathy, or down right stupidity?

Cragman

Trad climber
June Lake, California....via the Damascus Road
Dec 7, 2012 - 03:09pm PT
but don't get caught up in the propaganda.

The higher-ups need disastrous events like this to occur periodically throughout history, perhaps on a generational schedule. So that we all remain freaked out and will consent to endless war.

That's why the "new thing" is 9/11 and pearl harbor isn't talked about as much. It's not as useful anymore, propaganda-wise.






How pathetic.
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Dec 7, 2012 - 03:19pm PT
I remember listening to the Pearl Harbor news come in on the radio. I was ten. To give you an idea of the racist mentality of the time, I wasn't much scared by the Japanese, whom most people thought were not a very sophisticated race. But I remember listening to the declaration of war with Germany, and that scared hell out of me.

Humorous note: after the war I was walking down the street with my little brother who was 9, and a couple of people walked by speaking German. Bro said, "What kind of people were those?" I said, "They were Germans." His eyes got very big and he said, "Are they tame yet?"
Gene

climber
Dec 7, 2012 - 03:20pm PT
This is the first Pearl Harbor anniversary I can't pick up a phone and chat with Dad about his experiences back in WWII. I'm sure he and his shipmates are now swapping tales and tipping a few upstairs.

Miss you!
g

Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene

Credit: Gene
QITNL

climber
Dec 7, 2012 - 03:30pm PT
Eye of Diablo to be lit

A handful of volunteers spent a chilly morning last week at the top of Mount Diablo to make sure a bright beacon would shine once again to remember America's darkest day.

The beacon is the Eye of Diablo, lit only once a year, on Dec. 7, the anniversary of the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. The Eye will be lit after a ceremony at sunset on Friday and turned off again at sunrise the next morning.

(snip)

In 1928, the Standard Oil Co. of California put up a beacon on the peak to guide airplanes. It was moved in 1939 from a steel tower to the present site atop a stone and steel summit building. The beacon is so powerful it can be seen for almost 200 miles.

On Dec.8, 1941, the day after Pearl Harbor, the light was turned off lest it serve as a guide for enemy planes. It was dark for 23 years.

In 1964, Fleet Adm. Chester Nimitz suggested the beacon be turned on every Dec. 7 to honor the memory of Pearl Harbor. Every year there was a ceremony, and Pearl Harbor survivors came to tell their stories. But now, after 71 years, the ranks are thinning. Only five Pearl Harbor survivors are left among the million people who live near Diablo.

Read more:
http://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/Beacon-spotlights-Pearl-Harbor-ceremony-4098492.php

See for yourself:
http://www.mtdiablocam.com/
Dave Kos

Trad climber
Temecula
Dec 7, 2012 - 03:42pm PT
America's darkest day.

A dark day, no doubt, but I don't think it ranks as the "darkest."

There are more than a few days during the Civil War that rank as much darker than the day of the Pearl Harbor attack.
Ron Anderson

Trad climber
Soon to be Nipple suckling Liberal
Dec 7, 2012 - 04:02pm PT
Many a dark day during wars but that was much like the shock of 911.

Ill never forget watching that live on tv. Never.

That generation, we now call the greatest is getting very scarce and thats a sad thing.

It was people like Dan Burns, a young sixteen yr old that lied of his age- enlisted and spent his seventeenth birthday on the batan death march. He survived, and escaped prison to rejoin his outfit and fight the rest of the war out.. After the end, he returned to the camp he was held in as a pow, and in the water tower was hidden their tranisistor radio and a flag they had made of spare cloth to put on the roof of the barracks in case of an air raid invasion.
His son now owns that flag. This past July Mr Dan Burns was put to rest in Arlington natl cemetetary with a select crowd of whos who from ex presidents to kings to my buddy who was a personal friend and therapist of Dans. A heros honor for one of "the Greatest".



Mom passed away in 2001, Pa in 1996. I miss them to this day- both of that generation.
darkmagus

Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
Dec 7, 2012 - 04:12pm PT
"How pathetic"

That's a normal reaction to worldview-challenging information or ideas. I would suggest looking into the issue more deeply if you are so inclined, recognizing that your disgust at what I said has been "bought and paid for" (i.e. "programmed") by the media and it's co-conspirators (big business, government).

I don't think I'm alone in my view (expressed in my earlier post). There are many academics and intellectuals and regular-folk that reject the standard-issue history of our country in favor of something more rational and realistic such as what I proposed.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 7, 2012 - 06:26pm PT
http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2019849572_pearlharbor07.html
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 7, 2012 - 06:39pm PT
Darkmagus, I'm willing to consider the possibility that some people at the top suspected that Japan was going to attack, and were willing to let them land a first blow. If that was a decision made at the top, it was a ruthless one indeed, but strategically effective. I don't see that as some sort of "worldview changing" idea.

That also does not change the fact that there is evil at work in the world. Observe the actions of the Japanese at Nanking and other places, Korea for one. Observe the actions of the Germans against their own Jewish citizens or Saddam Hussien against his Kurdish people. Those were not the actions of high ranking American government officials trying to freak us out.

Sadly I am afraid Plato got it right.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 7, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
Thanks - Gene, Wayne and Ron especially for their personal stories.

My mother visited Germany in about 1937, with her mother and younger sister. She was then about eight, and mostly visiting family in quiet places, but clearly remembered how scary it was.

Very few of the US's leaders in 1941 can have been truly surprised that the Japanese finally responded militarily to economic and other provocations, or that Germany declared war on the US. Even the so-called isolationists, some of whose behaviour is explained by the near-certainty of the US eventually becoming actively involved, and simply wanting to put it off as long as possible. They might have been unsure as to exactly when and how armed conflict would begin, but US support for Britain and its allies became brazen by summer 1941, and the US had been in a pissing match in the Pacific with Japan since the late 1930s. Lend lease, financial and material aid, navy patrols in the Atlantic... Hitler knew that sooner or later Germany would be fighting the USA, and that wasn't just his weltanschaunng talking. Had he not been busy invading the Soviet Union in June 1941, his declaration might have come earlier.

All that said, the attack on Pearl Harbour, like that on 11/9, had a great deal more symbolic than actual effect. Japan could never have beaten the US, and indeed in the greater scheme, Germany was a much more serious opponent.
Tobia

Social climber
Denial
Dec 7, 2012 - 07:24pm PT
Pearl Harbor is a hard pill to swallow; especially if you have been there and felt the breeze slightly tease the Arizona Memorial.

No one should ever forget sacrifices made by those in uniform in the line of duty on any field of battle (including the streets and buildings of the mainland).



At the very very highest level, FDR and a few others were fully aware of the Japanese invasion as it was mobilized and approached.

Since the card was thrown on the table I have to say "baloney".

Certainly our government was aware of the threat of offensive action by the Japanese; but anyone who thinks that virtually all of our Pacific Fleet and most westerly line of defense was about to go up in smoke as a sacrificial lamb is wrong.




Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 7, 2012 - 07:41pm PT
I have the Stinnet book but believe he is reaching.

We knew that war with the Japanese was imminent, but thought that they would attack the Philippines first.

I just watched Tore, Tora, Tora again and feel it was fairly factual.

I like at the end where Yamamoto says, "I fear all we have done is awaken a sleeping giant and filled him with a terrible resolve."
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 8, 2012 - 12:26am PT
Another question is why did MacArthur get caught by surprise? He was very thorough in assaulting the veterans of the Bonus March, why was he so lax in preparing for an attack the day after Pearl Harbor?


guido

Trad climber
Santa Cruz/New Zealand/South Pacific
Dec 8, 2012 - 12:32am PT
I suggest you read "The Generals" by Thomas Ricks, recently published.
Todd Eastman

climber
Bellingham, WA
Dec 8, 2012 - 01:28am PT
Also read "Imperial Cruise" by James Bradley for some background about Teddy Roosevelt's efforts at influencing policy in the Far-East and how some of those policies influenced later Japanese actions leading to Pearl Harbor.

Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 8, 2012 - 01:38am PT
I think there's a lot to the book "Day of Deceit" One of the points being that the director of the Office of Naval Intelligence's Far East Asia section proposed an 8 point plan to provoke the Japanese to attack us and we implemented each and every point.

Now it's possible we didn't know how and to what extent we'd be attacked, and maybe it was a coincidence all our aircraft carriers were out to sea when it happened.

but it's worth knowing it didn't come out of the blue but in fact we intentionally invited an attack because we needed one to get in this important war

That doesn't diminish the courage of any of the sailors involved but we should have blinders on about how things work

Peace

Karl

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCollum_memo

The memo outlined the general situation of several nations in World War II and recommended an eight-part course of action for the United States to take in regards to the Japanese Empire in the South Pacific,[citation needed] suggesting the United States provoke Japan into committing an "overt act of war".[2]The memo illustrates several people in the Office of Naval Intelligence promoted the idea of goading Japan into war:[3] "It is not believed that in the present state of political opinion the United States government is capable of declaring war against Japan without more ado [...] If by [the elucidated eight-point plan] Japan could be led to commit an overt act of war, so much the better."

The McCollum memo contained an eight-part plan to counter rising Japanese power over East Asia:

A. Make an arrangement with Britain for the use of British bases in the Pacific, particularly Singapore
B. Make an arrangement with Holland for the use of base facilities and acquisition of supplies in the Dutch East Indies
C. Give all possible aid to the Chinese government of Chiang-Kai-Shek
D. Send a division of long range heavy cruisers to the Orient, Philippines, or Singapore
E. Send two divisions of submarines to the Orient
F. Keep the main strength of the U.S. fleet now in the Pacific[,] in the vicinity of the Hawaiian Islands
G. Insist that the Dutch refuse to grant Japanese demands for undue economic concessions, particularly oil
H. Completely embargo all U.S. trade with Japan, in collaboration with a similar embargo imposed by the British Empire

Admiral Nimitz turned down the command of the Pacific Fleet [12] so that he would not become the scapegoat[citation needed] if the Japanese attacked the United States by surprise. In a History Channel interview, Admiral Chester Nimitz Jr. described his father's political maneuver: "He said, 'It is my guess that the Japanese are going to attack us in a surprise attack. There will be a revulsion in the country against all those in command at sea, and they will be replaced by people in positions of prominence ashore, and I want to be ashore, and not at sea, when that happens.'"

course it's all complicated and there's nuances, but it's not like we were just whistling in the sun and all of a sudden Japan invades
Robb

Social climber
It's Ault or Nunn south of Shy Annie
Dec 8, 2012 - 01:45am PT
Heros all
SF Bay, ANZACS, 14th AF CIB
SF Bay, ANZACS, 14th AF CIB
Credit: Robb
'nuff' said
gf

climber
Dec 8, 2012 - 04:17am PT
Very few of the US's leaders in 1941 can have been truly surprised that the Japanese finally responded militarily to economic and other provocations,

Um MH, Care to rephrase this one -perhaps something taking into account the broader sweep of japanese masacres in China that just maybe precipitated some of the "economic and other provocations" snot!
Karl Baba

Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
Dec 8, 2012 - 04:43am PT
Um MH, Care to rephrase this one -perhaps something taking into account the broader sweep of japanese masacres in China that just maybe precipitated some of the "economic and other provocations" snot!

Seriously doubt we wanted war with Japan because of their masacres in China, but their expansionism in general and just politics. Here's what Patrick Buchanan wrote about it

To understand why Japan lashed out, we must go back to World War I. Japan had been our ally. But when she tried to collect her share of the booty at Versailles, she ran into an obdurate Woodrow Wilson.

Wilson rejected Japan's claim to German concessions in Shantung, home of Confucius, which Japan had captured at a price in blood. Tokyo threatened a walkout if denied what she had been promised by the British. "They are not bluffing," warned Wilson, as he capitulated. "We gave them what they should not have."

In 1921, at the Washington Naval Conference, the United States pressured the British to end their 20-year alliance with Japan. By appeasing the Americans, the British enraged and alienated a proud nation that had been a loyal friend.

Japan was now isolated, with Stalin's brooding empire to the north, a rising China to the east and, to the south, Western imperial powers that detested and distrusted her.

When civil war broke out in China, Japan in 1931 occupied Manchuria as a buffer state. This was the way the Europeans had collected their empires. Yet, the West was "shocked, shocked" that Japan would embark upon a course of "aggression." Said one Japanese diplomat, "Just when we learn how to play poker, they change the game to bridge."

Japan now decided to create in China what the British had in India a vast colony to exploit that would place her among the world powers. In 1937, after a clash at Marco Polo Bridge near Peking, Japan invaded and, after four years of fighting, including the horrific Rape of Nanking, Japan controlled the coastal cities, but not the interior.

When France capitulated in June 1940, Japan moved into northern French Indochina. And though the United States had no interest there, we imposed an embargo on steel and scrap metal. After Hitler invaded Russia in June 1941, Japan moved into southern Indochina. FDR ordered all Japanese assets frozen.

But FDR did not want to cut off oil. As he told his Cabinet on July 18, an embargo meant war, for that would force oil-starved Japan to seize the oil fields of the Dutch East Indies. But a State Department lawyer named Dean Acheson drew up the sanctions in such a way as to block any Japanese purchases of U.S. oil. By the time FDR found out, in September, he could not back down.

Tokyo was now split between a War Party and a Peace Party, with the latter in power. Prime Minister Konoye called in Ambassador Joseph Grew and secretly offered to meet FDR in Juneau or anywhere in the Pacific. According to Grew, Konoye was willing to give up Indochina and China, except a buffer region in the north to protect her from Stalin, in return for the U.S. brokering a peace with China and opening up the oil pipeline. Konoye told Grew that Emperor Hirohito knew of his initiative and was ready to give the order for Japan's retreat.

Fearful of a "second Munich," America spurned the offer. Konoye fell from power and was replaced by Hideki Tojo. Still, war was not inevitable. U.S. diplomats prepared to offer Japan a "modus vivendi." If Japan withdrew from southern Indochina, the United States would partially lift the oil embargo. But Chiang Kai-shek became "hysterical," and his American adviser, one Owen Lattimore, intervened to abort the proposal.

Facing a choice between death of the empire or fighting for its life, Japan decided to seize the oil fields of the Indies. And the only force capable of interfering was the U.S. fleet that FDR had conveniently moved from San Diego out to Honolulu.

And so Japan attacked. And so she was crushed and forced out of Vietnam, out of China, out of Manchuria. And so they fell to Stalin, Mao and Ho Chi Minh. And so it was that American boys, not Japanese boys, would die fighting Koreans, Chinese and Vietnamese to try to block the aggressions of a barbaric Asian communism.

And here's an interesting round up of japanese move to comply with US demands before the war even started

http://original.antiwar.com/buchanan/2011/12/06/did-fdr-provoke-pearl-harbor/
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 8, 2012 - 09:33am PT
i see that the late john toland's book hasn't been mentioned on this thread. his infamy is probably the best-researched study of the run up to and the hush-hush over pearl harbor. from the summary and endorsement:

It was the Japanese code that meant war--and the U.S. had broken it! Yet on December 7, 1941--the day that will live forever in infamy--the U.S. armed forces at Pearl Harbor were caught entirely by surprise. Or were they?

John Toland, one of America's most respected historians, has written a shocking and revealing account of the events surrounding Pearl Harbor, uncovering evidence that FDR and his top advisers knew about the planned Japanese attack but remained silent so that the U.S. would be drawn into the war. Even more shocking was the conspiracy afterwards to cover up the facts and find scapegoats for the greatest disaster in U.S. miltary history.

"John Toland has been fearless in the pursuit of truth ... INFAMY is not only readable and suspenseful; it is probably his most controversial book to date." -- John S.D. Eisenhower

i can give you some confirmation of this from personal knowledge. my brother in alaska has been involved in politics there on and off, and alaska, being the rather small, though geographically large, community that it is, he came to know the late joe vogler, founder of the notorious alaska independent party. joe came to alaska during world war 2 and stayed. he had no choice. he had been in the military and was aware of the foreknowledge about pearl harbor and started making some real waves about it. they gave him a choice: alaska or jail.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 8, 2012 - 12:57pm PT
Very few of the US's leaders in 1941 can have been truly surprised that the Japanese finally responded militarily to economic and other provocations,

Um MH, Care to rephrase this one - perhaps something taking into account the broader sweep of japanese masacres in China that just maybe precipitated some of the "economic and other provocations" snot!

Rephrasing isn't needed, for reasons such as those set out by Karl. There's no doubt that Japan's invasion and then occupation of much of China was opportunistic imperialism, and an ugly business. Particularly when layered onto an ugly civil war. Still, was US policy, for example the oil export embargo, motivated by what the Japanese were doing to the people of China? There was a strategic concern as to growing Japanese power, and as to how to get the US public to support bringing the Japanese to heel. And some idealism in parts of the US government, the "missionaries", with regard to China. But the US had provided a fine example with its invasion/liberation and occupation of the Philippines. The fate of the individuals affected wasn't much of a concern.

I don't for a second buy the conspiracy theory nonsense about the US leadership knowing specifically of the attack on Pearl Harbour, and deliberately doing nothing, so as to ensure that the US went to war. But I believe that most of them knew that the escalating rhetoric and actions in the Pacific would eventually lead to war, even though the real enemy was Germany and then the USSR. It was a natural outcome of the imperialism that began with the war against Spain, if not earlier.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 8, 2012 - 03:11pm PT
Remember John Finn too.


http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1180199&msg=1180199#msg1180199
Park Rat

Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2012 - 04:52pm PT
I did not expect so much controversy over Pearl Harbor. That was not my intention. It seems to me that some events should be remembered because of their historical significance. That said I will give my two cents on the subject.

Pearl Harbor for better or worse changed the course of the United States forever, we could no longer hide behind our self-imposed isolation. While Europe had been at war for several years we endeavored to stay out of the conflict. If we had not been attacked by the Japanese it might have taken us much longer to step up and help stop Hitler from taking over the world. I personally could not imagine a world ruled by the Nazis, because of Pearl Harbor we don't have to even imagine such a thing.

There is no doubt that Pres. Roosevelt wanted to join in the fight to save Great Britain, but he could not alone sway the country to join in the fight. Before FDR was president of the United States he was the assistant secretary of the Navy. I don't believe for a moment he would've wanted his Navy to be destroyed. That would be the last thing he would've wanted to happen. Yes, I believe he expected the Japanese to attack our bases in the Philippines, that seemed to be a natural progression in their quest to control the Far East.

That is very different from thinking that he expected or could even imagine, an armada of airplanes attacking and bombing Pearl Harbor. Their attack was a complete surprise, audacious to say the least. Just as the attack on 9/11 came as a complete surprise.

At work yesterday, I mentioned Pearl Harbor, a twenty something looked at me and said tell me again what happened at Pearl Harbor!

The same group of young people could tell me chapter and verse about any NFL player or team, but they often do not know even the basics of American history. I find this to be a very sad commentary, especially when it's so easy for anyone to look up the basics on their computers or even cell phones.
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 8, 2012 - 05:32pm PT
I personally could not imagine a world ruled by the Nazis, because of Pearl Harbor we don't have to even imagine such a thing.

No, it was because of the Red Army, they beat the Nazis. We beat the Japanese.
Park Rat

Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2012 - 05:49pm PT
Gary,

I believe that Eisenhower would've disagreed with you on the point.
I'm pretty sure he thought that we had done our share to beat the Germans.

My late husband Peter Stern was a B 26 bomber pilot in Europe. It's his picture I posted, he's was in France at the time waiting for with the weather to clear so that he could fly is 66th bombing mission.

Like Tens of thousands of others he volunteered the day after Pearl Harbor.

Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 8, 2012 - 05:59pm PT
I believe that Eisenhower would've disagreed with you on the point.
I'm pretty sure he thought that we had done our share to beat the Germans.

That's very true. However, by the time we invaded France, the issue had already been decided. Even at the height of our fighting in the west, 77% of the German Army was engaging the Russians.

One important contribution we made to ending that war was that the Germans couldn't surrender fast enough to us and the British, while they fought to the last bullet against the Russians.

Your husband must have been a very plucky lad. How old was he when he enlisted?

This is my favorite photo from Pearl Harbor. It's amazing how young these kids are. They didn't remain kids for long.



Park Rat

Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 8, 2012 - 06:18pm PT
Peter was 20 years old about to graduate from engineering school when the war started. He was lucky that it took almost a year for him to be called up after he'd volunteered and another year to be trained. The men that went out in 1942 in 1943 really took the brunt of the war. Our planes were not the best and the B 26 became known as the widow maker for good reason.

By the time Peter became a pilot two things contributed to his making it through the war. They added several feet to the wings of the B 26 so it flew better and the Norton bomb site was being used this changed the odds of the men coming home from the missions they flew.

I've been able to do a great deal of research about my husband's bomb group and I can see that he was extremely lucky to a been called up even a few months later in the war.

He always said that the guys flying out of Great Britain had at the worst they encountered more flak and fighter planes thus having many more losses.

Early in the war if you made 25 missions you were sent home. As the odds improved the missions went up 40 and then to 60 at the end the war.

My husband volunteered to stay after his time was up and fly the brass behind the lines in the last months of the war.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 8, 2012 - 07:44pm PT
As horrible a price we paid battling the Third Reich, the Soviets lost 19 times as many.

I love that photo of the Ward crew. They actually fired the first shot, period, on December 7.
Perfectly justified though. Too bad word of it was slow to reach command.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Dec 8, 2012 - 08:45pm PT
john toland is no ordinary "conspiracy theorist".
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2012 - 09:27pm PT
No impartial analyst can deny that the Soviets won the European War. The
German Army and Air Force we faced was a hollow shell of what invaded Russia.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 8, 2012 - 09:28pm PT
This is my favorite photo from Pearl Harbor. It's amazing how young these kids are. They didn't remain kids for long.

The USS Lane Victory does several fund raiser cruses out to Catalina every summer.

The deck guns are outfitted with propane / oxygen simulators and manned by teenaged Sea Scouts when the mock aerial attacks come in from Chino.

The general reaction is "why are the kids playing with the cannons"

But it's completely historically accurate.

http://www.lanevictory.org/

If you have the cash to spare it's well worth the day and all the money goes to the upkeep of the ship.

Later dates are better.

The early ones are subject to June gloom fog.

edit: I just noticed on the dates they've shifted everything a month forward to avoid that. Also, tickets are usually sold out by January
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Dec 8, 2012 - 09:39pm PT
By the time Peter became a pilot two things contributed to his making it through the war. They added several feet to the wings of the B 26 so it flew better and the Norton bomb site was being used this changed the odds of the men coming home from the missions they flew.

Just FYI, it's "Norden" bombsight.

Curt
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2012 - 09:46pm PT
Curt, I'm sure he meant the one that Norton invented with Jackie Gleason. ;-)
jstan

climber
Dec 8, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
The story I have heard in the aerospace community is that the cross hairs of the Norden sight were hairs. One of the ladies working on the line had hair perfect for that application. Presumably she was bald by the end of the war.
Gary

Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
Dec 8, 2012 - 11:43pm PT
Park Rat, thanks for the story. It was an extraordinary time filled with ordinary people doing extraordinary things.

We and the Russians won for the same reason. Resources. We had them, Germany and Japan did not.

The German Panther tank was said to be the best tank in the world into the 1950s. IIRC, and I may not, they produced 5,000 of them. The Russians produced 35,000 T-34s. We produced over 50,000 Shermans. Attrition is a relentless thing.

I wonder how our tankers felt about this.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 8, 2012 - 11:55pm PT
Park Rat, with all due respect the Norden didn't increase your chances of coming back from a mission it only increased the chances that you would hit the target you were sticking your neck out for. The B-26 was a pilot's plane. It didn't have the big fat forgiving wing design of the B-17 or B-24 so it was not conducive to low-timers' sloppiness. But it was a terrific design.
Robb

Social climber
It's Ault or Nunn south of Shy Annie
Dec 9, 2012 - 05:42am PT
The B-26....it was'nt called "One a day in Tampa Bay" for nothing.
Jan

Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
Dec 9, 2012 - 07:01am PT
I have to agree with karl baba above. The Japanese set out to copy the West after Admiral Perry shot his way into their consciousness, and they realized they would have to compete or become a western colony like China, Indo China and the Phillipines. They modeled their army on the Prussians and their Navy on the British. Repeatedly they were told that to be taken seriously as a world power they would need an empire. The British in particular trained them to aspire to that.

America later hypocritically set out to block their efforts decrying colonialism while we occupied the Phillipines and backed the British, French and Dutch in Indo China along with the treaty ports in mainland China. We welcomed Chinese and Japanese laborers to Hawaii and the West Coast and then passed the Oriental Exclusion Act, something they still resent.

As for Pearl Harbor, a student of mine told me over 30 years ago that her father was a sailor stationed in Honolulu just before Pearl Harbor and the rank and file were placing bets in the bars on their off time as to when they would be attacked. They were only surprised by the ferocity and thoroughness of it all.

Seeing how young our sailors on the deck of the USS Ward looked, I was reminded of teaching last term at a Marine Corps expeditionary base on Okinawa up by the jungle warfare training area. Those guys looked just as young as he WWII sailors, even though many of them have done two or three tours in the Middle East already. Some of these veterans were so easily distracted by the giggly young female Marines in the class that I had to make the girls sit on one side and the easily distracted guys on the other. Married marines occupied the middle. War heroes and kids all at the same time. It never changes.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 9, 2012 - 11:02am PT
I wonder how our tankers felt about this.

The M4 Sherman was known as the "Ronson" (lights every time) "Tommycooker" and "Burning Grave"

The low velocity 75 mm gun was only effective against German tanks from the side or rear.

http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=40
Park Rat

Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2012 - 11:56am PT
Lt, Peter Stern circa 1944
Lt, Peter Stern circa 1944
Credit: Park Rat


(Park Rat, with all due respect the Norden didn't increase your chances of coming back from a mission it only increased the chances that you would hit the target you were sticking your neck out for.)

The reason I mentioned the bomb site was that it did save many lives.

Each time the men went out on a mission if they failed to reach the target or the bombs were off target two things could happen.

If they failed to reach the target they would have to be sent out again on another mission. If they reached the target but failed to hit the intended target, often a rail yard or bridge they would have to go back on a second mission to complete the job.

If the the bombardier had trouble lining up his drop site, as they did before the Norten came along. The bomb group would be forced to go around the target and make his second run. It was this second runs that often proved the most fatal, as the gunners on the ground now were prepared to shoot down the incoming bombers.

Every second over a target that is shooting at you can be fatal. That is why I mentioned the Norten it really did save lives because it was so accurate that the men did not have to risk their lives on a second or third go-round.

I hope that explains why I mentioned it. If you would like to know more about my husband's bomb group. See the 320th bomb group website. His squadron was the 442. There were four squadrons stationed together to make up 320th.

I'm including some pictures from the website. The 4 ship box picture was something my husband talked a great deal about. He felt it was the safest formation to be an during the combat. The closer the planes flew together the safer they were. because they could cover each other with their guns if they were attacked by fighter planes.

This was called a four ship box.
This was called a four ship box.
Credit: Park Rat
The 26, the Martin marauder, also known as the flying prostitute, as i...
The 26, the Martin marauder, also known as the flying prostitute, as it was said not to have any visible means of support.
Credit: Park Rat
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 6, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
Tomorrow is Decmber 7th.

I saw recently,SCUBA divers, went down to a shipwreck of a tug that had sunk 3 days before and found a man alive and brought him to the surface alive.

It brought me to mind of the USS OKLAHOMA. After the attack, there were silors alive inside, banging away, they couldn't get at all of them, eventually the banging stopped.

During the war, they raised the vessel they recovered the bodies, they found a diary, I read somewhere it was scratched into the hull. After the war, they towed the ship and lost it. Last I heard, it's still on the top ten list of WW2 wrecks as yet not found.

What I can't seem to find, is a rocord of the diary. Seems like it should be an important part of the memorial.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 6, 2013 - 12:32pm PT
Remember it well. Tried to crawl out of my crib and enlist but was told i had to wait until i was potty trained.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2013 - 12:45pm PT
Park Rat, the B-26 was somewhat maligned because it was not as forgiving of
ham-fisted n00bs as most bombers were. It handled more like a large fighter
and rewarded those capable of utilizing its abilities while punishing those
who weren't up to the task. An acquaintance was working on one found in a
Canuckian peat bog after the ferry crew ran it out of gas on the way to Alaska.
It only had 40 hours on it. Unfortunately I never got to fly it. :-(





Just yesterday it was announced that the U of Hawaii had discovered an I-400.

"At nearly 400 feet long, the I-400 and its two sister ships were the largest submarines ever built before the nuclear age.

The I-400 was one of five Japanese submarines captured by the U.S. Navy at the end of World War II and sent to Hawaii for examination, the school said.

With tensions rising between the Soviet Union and the United States after the war, the Navy scuttled the ships to avoid their advanced technology falling into the hands of the Soviet navy in what would become one of the first intrigues of the Cold War."

So if we were towing it to Hawaii why did we suddenly become afraid the
Rooskies were gonna nab it? I smell a fish.

I-400 Sub found off Hawaii
John Duffield

Mountain climber
New York
Dec 6, 2013 - 01:15pm PT
I did see that. There's also contoversy as to the location of the 5th midget and whether a midget fired one of the torpedoes that sank the OKLAHOMA. It's a shame the Vets are passing taking so much with them.

The IJN, had a greater variety of submarines than all the other navies combined. Where other navies would build many in a "class", many IJN vessels were built unique.

http://www.combinedfleet.com/ss.htm

jammer

climber
Dec 6, 2013 - 02:58pm PT
DMT,

I couldn't disagree more strongly, your daughters need to know all the horrors of war, recent and past conflicts.

Certainly you are not suggesting being ignorant of history?

I have made a hobby of reading about the wars, and was recently in Munich, visiting an injured friend, and couldn't help but feel angry towards Germany, and all the violence that generated from that one small country.

My GF, was wondering why I was getting depressed, "I said just looking around here, makes me think of all the horrors, (WW1, WW2, Holocaust) this country has created."

She answered,"what are you talking about, it's beautiful here....What horrors?

Anyway, it's important we know about war, so young people are not ready to throw their life away to appease the mega wealthy, to maim and kill innocent people over oil and resources.

And particularly so you can see people like Fatty, as the clue-less drones they are, confusing religious and regional resource protection as one and the same, and believing in a one true God, who righteously deserves it all. Rather than letting others have their own beliefs and freedoms, their fair share of resorses, etc. We are pulling out of Iraq now simply because the Bush administration, religious crusade to save the Muslims from themselves, has failed, leaving the USA with 1500 dead, and 32,000 wounded, and close to a 1,000,000 dead Iraqis.

So, yes teach your children well, and teach them of the dead, it's the only way war will end. Shed a tear for all the men and women who sacrificed their lives, so they would have hope for a more peaceful world, and not one were the living forget and mitigate their great suffering.

Deserves to be said again. Also, you guys do realize you don't have to read posts that you don't want to, right? I personally have a hard time swallowing that higher ups had no clue. They were purposely provoking Japan to get Japan to attack. Do you really think they were in the dark as to the nature of the attack and when it would come? Military strategy pretty much dictates that these things would have been plain as day to anyone looking at the whole board, and we have a very very good intelligence operation going on in this country. One of the best in the world, in fact. They would have used a Bayesian model, which would have put a tremendous probability on an attack at Pearl Harbor, probably somewhere near 100%. At the very least they EXPECTED it to happen...

Anyone know, did the "greatest generation" get boned after WW II like my generation got boned after 911? Gee, wonder why they have such a great attitude about America, wheras my generation thinks very differently...
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Dec 6, 2013 - 03:25pm PT
Just curious, has anything ever occurred in history that did not involve a government conspiracy?

Curt
jammer

climber
Dec 6, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
Everyone here should read "The Theory That Would Not Die: how bayes rule cracked the enigma code, hunted down russian submarines and emerged triumphant from two centuries of controversy", by Sharon Bertsch McGrayne. I promise it is interesting.

Bayesian statistical theory has a very interesting history in this country. It is what our government uses to make predictions, yet openly academically shunned by many people, especially in the past. Luckily, due to it's applications in all of science, were are not in the dark about it. It's really interesting stuff.
jammer

climber
Dec 6, 2013 - 03:33pm PT
Curt, how does the Navy use Bayesian statistical theory?
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 6, 2013 - 03:45pm PT
Just curious, has anything ever occurred in history that did not involve a government conspiracy?

No. Your decision to have Wheaties this morning. You think that just happened?
Curt

climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
Dec 6, 2013 - 04:24pm PT
Curt, how does the Navy use Bayesian statistical theory?

I have no idea. See how easy that is? I simply admit when I don't know something, instead of making something up.

Curt
Ksolem

Trad climber
Monrovia, California
Dec 6, 2013 - 04:29pm PT
I think it's a safe bet that Wheaties are a conspiracy.

Credit: Ksolem


Sugar plus corn syrup? And that BHT stuff gives me hives.

Sorry for the thread drift. I wonder how those old Nevada class ships would have fared in an open sea battle against the Japanese fleet? They would have been fully crewed too...
Gary

Social climber
Desolation Basin, Calif.
Dec 6, 2013 - 04:37pm PT
Corn syrup IS a government conspiracy.

As for the Nevada class battleships, the battleship was already obsolete in 1941. Billy Mitchell had already proven that, they just didn't realize it yet. What happened to Repulse and Prince of Wales should have made that point very obvious.
Bruce Morris

Social climber
Belmont, California
Dec 6, 2013 - 05:00pm PT
Along with what happened to the DKM Battleship Bismark. Already obsolete bi-planes hit her with a torpedo and jammed her rudder, so she was a sitting duck for the whole British fleet to pounce on and sink in the Bay of Biscay.

Each new war is always initially being fought with the outmoded weapons and tactics of the previous war. That is, until someone comes along with a new tactic like Blitzkrieg and takes all the marbles. Submarines, air-power and aircraft carriers were already the way of the future while the Great Powers were still pouring all their treasure into big floating gun platforms called battleships.

Too bad we weren't paying better attention when those British Swordfish torpedo-bombers trashed the Italian fleet at Taranto. However, the Japanese were paying very, very close attention and planned their attack on Pearl Harbor accordingly. I still have some newspaper clipping in a scrapbook with pics of Arizona all lit up for Fleet Week in Seattle. Pearl Harbor must have been a real shocker.

By the way, my late aunt's first BF is still entombed down in the Arizona. The Pacific Fleet was the pride of the whole West Coast from Bremerton, WA to San Diego, CA, so the Japanese attack real hit civilian morale very hard.
jammer

climber
Dec 6, 2013 - 05:35pm PT
I think it's a safe bet that Wheaties are a conspiracy. Sugar plus corn syrup? And that BHT stuff gives me hives.

Sorry for the thread drift. I wonder how those old Nevada class ships would have fared in an open sea battle against the Japanese fleet? They would have been fully crewed too...

Sad to say this one is true, part of the processed foods you buy everyday, the profits of which find themselves eventually to military contractors selling fertilizer so farmers can keep overproducing corn and wasting away the top-soil. These profits are then invested politically to further disenfranchise us. That's just a fact. That is how populism has been effectively laid dormant in American politics. So funny as it is, there really is a "conspiracy", dun dun dun, or fact trail there. You can read about that in "The Omnivores Dilemma" by Michael Pollan.
TGT

Social climber
So Cal
Dec 6, 2013 - 05:52pm PT
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Social climber
SLO, Ca
Dec 6, 2013 - 06:30pm PT
I posted these photos before but whatever. Pulled my kid from school to show him these planes. There were old guys who had clearly flown in them in World War 2 who were having trouble moving around, touching stuff, etc. All quite heavy.


Credit: ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Credit: ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Credit: ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 6, 2013 - 07:02pm PT
Didn't the Japanese build some huge submarine floatplane aircraft carriers with the intent on bombing the Panama Canal?



EDIT
Took a while to load the link.
Yup. Its one of 'em.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Dec 6, 2013 - 07:03pm PT
Toker, that was the I-400 I mentioned up thread. It carried three aircraft!
However, a little birdie is telling me they used a smaller one that only
carried one or two on that Panama Canal fiasco.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Dec 6, 2013 - 07:43pm PT
My mother told me that she heard about Pearl Harbor just as she was watching me use my twin brother as a stepping stone to get out of my crib.......what were YOU doing?
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Dec 6, 2013 - 07:45pm PT
What were YOU doing when Garfield was shot?

(and how come yer email's no good)
Park Rat

Social climber
CA, UT,CT,FL
Topic Author's Reply - Dec 7, 2013 - 12:40pm PT
Pearl Harbor remembered 71th anniversary!


Credit: Park Rat



There are fewer WWII vets left each year to remember DEC 7th.

We should not ever forget those the men & women who fought in this war.

Credit: Park Rat

The moment people heard of the attack on Pearl Harbor they knew we were at war. The next day millions of Americans lined up at recruiting centers to volunteer to go to war.

So many people came forward that they were not able to process many of them into the various services for many months.

America was not prepared, even though the war in Europe had been going on for several years. Overnight we had to plan for new military bases and training.

The real problem was that we did not have the ships or airplanes that we would need to reach the enemy. Much of our military was using World War I equipment at the beginning of the war.

The real story of how quickly we reacted and turned from an isolationist, post depression country into a superpower virtually overnight is the great miracle of World War II.
Dave Kos

Social climber
Temecula
Dec 7, 2013 - 01:00pm PT
Yup,

And as long as we continue to glorify war, young men will continue to line up at the recruiting stations when old, powerful men create the right circumstances.
Gregory Crouch

Social climber
Walnut Creek, California
Dec 8, 2013 - 01:30pm PT
In Hong Kong, it happened on December 8th. Here's a post about how war came to Hong Kong, and about how the Japanese attacked "my" airline, the China National Aviation Corporation, with their first wave air attack on the morning of December 8, 1941. It's one of my favorite episodes in my book, China's Wings.

Pearl Harbor Day in Hong Kong.
Fossil climber

Trad climber
Atlin, B. C.
Dec 8, 2013 - 02:05pm PT
I was about 10 when we heard it on the radio. It scared us all, but the "Japs" were immediately classified in everyone's mind as subhuman and we'd beat them. Then I heard on the radio that Germany had declared war too and that scared the sh#t out of us.

We learned how to identify all the major axis planes from flash card silhouettes, and there were civilian spotters on the mountain tops in California. I can still identify quite a few.

I still get seriously introspective and a little sick every time a WWII documentary comes on. What we do to each other is unthinkable, and I wonder if we deserve to survive as a species.

But there was a humorous incident a couple of years after the war which still makes me laugh. I was walking down the street in Calistoga with my younger brother Bill, who was about 8 years old. A couple went by talking in German. Bill asked who they were, and I said they were Germans. He went pale, looked back, and asked me, "Are they tame yet?"

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