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Cain J Waters
Mountain climber
Ithaca, NY
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 12, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
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My partner has US made C4s. I have a set of the newer China made ones. Any known differences between the two? Someone mentioned the colours are slightly different. We couldn't tell since ours are so worn out and faded.
So I guess this is what I'm trying to find out:
Can you tell which is made from where?
Any differences?
Anyone know more information on their factory overseas? Is QC done overseas or back in the US? Factory conditions for those manufacturing the cams?
Thanks.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 12, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
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You might. A buddy runs a major corporation. They've had nothing but problems
with the chinese substituting inferior materials for contractually agreed
upon ones. I mean yer prolly not gonna die if yer BBQ throws a rod but it
could be a different story with your BD cams.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 12, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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They make a lot of consumer electronic equipment in places like China, which if anything is manufactured to a higher standard. It's clearly possible.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Nov 12, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
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i'm pretty sure BD is running a tight ship over there and keeping them to spec..
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 12, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
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More to the point, do you think it's a good thing for manufacturing to disappear from the U.S. economic landscape? If there are alternatives (often aren't, many things simply are not made here or almost anywhere but China anymore), what you buy is your vote with your dollars about the future. Personally, I choose not to buy any more BD gear now that they've offshored it. There are excellent alternatives from Petzl, DMM, Totem, and so on.
And no, I don't think that any company can maintain the same level of QC over a product, especially a life-critical one, with manufacturing in China vs. here or elsewhere with standards for commerce, product safety, etc., that are similar to ours.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Nov 12, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
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Here is an article.
Just keep it in mind that Black Diamond is spinning the story that they are meeting minimum standards for workers, business, environment, ETC but those are CHINA STANDARDS.
That's right. Mimimum China Standards. That is a pretty low standard.
Mimimum wage in china is 1/10 of the US.
Human rights standards = zip.
All about money. That is all.
http://www.tetonat.com/2011/01/26/black-diamonds-vendor-code-of-conduct/
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laughingman
Ice climber
Seattle WA
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Nov 12, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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It is my understanding that Black diamond actually owns and operates the factory's that produce the cams in china. Because of the "sue anything that moves" culture in the united states they hold production quality to a very high standard.
I still like metolius and WB Cams more (made in usa)
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Nov 12, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
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I don't buy Black Diamond any longer.
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GrahamJ
climber
In the rain
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Nov 12, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
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I don't understand this BD-hate. Do you hate on Marmot 'cause all their stuff is made in China? So BD moved the factory to china - yeah it sucks that folks in SLC lost jobs, but does that make the gear any less safe? It's a BD factory, same as it was in SLC, making BD gear. Held to the same standards as it was in SLC. Still 3 sigma rated, still meets or exceeds the same tests it did in SLC. I'd bet the raw materials for making any BD gear started coming from China well before they moved the factory there.
Protest BD's actions all you want, but don't say the gear isn't safe simply because it's made in China.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 12, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
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Good luck finding anything that ain't made at least partialy in china.. sucks but it is reality...
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Nov 12, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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Buy Wired Bliss, lovingly manufactured in Flagstaff, Arizona. I have a bunch and they are my favorite cams of all my stuff.
I would like to try some of the new Clog and Totem stuff. Not made by slave labor and some interesting designs.
And YES, as a matter of fact I'm hating on Marmot for moving to china. I notice their prices have never gone down, but I'm sure the PROFIT margin is much greater when you switch to slave labor.
And for those that would say those jobs are the best jobs those people can get, my answer is let them make stuff for their own economy. Make them pay fair tarifs on stuff imported into the US. We have to in order to import stuff to China, they have a protectionist tarif scheme, we should to.
And as far as the original question, as an example there was a recent scandal in China where they were manufacturing a food item (seaweed, I belive) out of recycled plastic. I don't trust them as far as QC goes. It's all about the payoffs there.
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climbrunride
Sport climber
Golf Wall, CO
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Nov 13, 2011 - 02:05am PT
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It seems a little shortsighted to assume that everyone in a manufacturing job in the US is a model of perfection. I wouldn't trust a lot of those people with my life.
The myth that everything made here in the US is without flaw is just that, a myth. I'm not saying that everything made here is junk, but things can be made well just about anywhere.
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climbrunride
Sport climber
Golf Wall, CO
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Nov 13, 2011 - 02:06am PT
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Has anyone been complaining about Wild Country manufacturing in Taiwan?
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climbrunride
Sport climber
Golf Wall, CO
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Nov 13, 2011 - 02:22am PT
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I think that this thread is really just another example of the phenomenon of the most successful business in any area becoming a target for vilification. But the reason they achieved that success and became the biggest was because they did a great job and people bought their products.
Anyone who has never, ever bought a Chouinard or Black Diamond product, feel free to chime in here.
I am also reminded of several small manufacturers, making excellent quality products, who ended up moving their manufacturing elsewhere in order to save their business. (BD does not fit that category, but I thought of that for some reason.) Like Jandd, the pack and bike bag maker. The real estate prices in Santa Barbara had gotten so ridiculously high, their workers could no longer afford to live there. And they paid their workers more than similar US manufacturers. So they bought a building in Baja California and set up their own shop down there. And they were able to keep most of their same employees on board. I remember that Dave Sisson, the company's founder and owner, was heartbroken to be moving jobs out of the US. But it was better than all those people having no job at all.
So things like that are not always as simple as they first look, before getting into the details of it all.
BTW, didn't Crazy Creek start manufacturing in China because they were maxed out at their Montana plant and could not meet the demand for their chairs?
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T Moses
Big Wall climber
Paso Robles
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Nov 13, 2011 - 03:31am PT
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The full disclosure is I am in direct competition to BD and I have achip on my shoulder regarding China and manufacturing. I apologize if I come off sounding like a jerk but I live, eat, and breath American manufacturing every day. I felt like adding my two cents.
MH: "They make a lot of consumer electronic equipment in places like China, which if anything is manufactured to a higher standard. It's clearly possible."
Anything is possible but how likely is it that they realy make stuff to a higher standard?
The kid: "i'm pretty sure BD is running a tight ship over there and keeping them to spec.."
I believe they have employees of BD living there (China) to ensure quality control.
Laughingman: "It is my understanding that Black diamond actually owns and operates the factory's that produce the cams in china."
How is this possible in a "communist" country? By definition the workers own the factories?
Ron Anderson: "if you don't mind your cams made from reconstituted beer cans then id guess them to be fine."
China's metal quality is horrible. Learned this from raw experience. I refuse to buy non domestic metal and I buy 110,000 pounds of aluminum anually. The steel I make cam hooks out of is domestic also. To be completely fair the ingot that comes in is some times partialy foriegn but the alloying and proccesing are done in the US. The foreign mills don't hold tight tolerances on the alloying elements or the proccessing.
GrahamJ "It's a BD factory, same as it was in SLC, making BD gear."
I think you missed the part where it is in China. China has a well earned reputation of making cheap crap. I am totally suprised when I get something mechanical in nature that is well made Chinese
Climrunride: "It seems a little shortsighted to assume that everyone in a manufacturing job in the US is a model of perfection. I wouldn't trust a lot of those people with my life.
The myth that everything made here in the US is without flaw is just that, a myth. I'm not saying that everything made here is junk, but things can be made well just about anywhere."
I can agree with most of what you said. Not everyone has high standards in US manufacturing. I will argue that things cannot be made well just about anywhere. The maunfacturing infrastructure must be in place. The highly skilled workers must be trained. The material must be available. I could go on with the long list of things that need to be available to do high quality work. China has most of them but chooses quantity over quality to feed it's rapidly growing population needs.
Climrunride: "I am also reminded of several small manufacturers, making excellent quality products, who ended up moving their manufacturing elsewhere in order to save their business."
Hogue Grips here in town split their manufacturing into two locations (one in Paso, one in TJ Mexico) and has expanded both locations. Globalizing can be done right sometimes. This also demonstrates the hostile environment that the US has become to manufacturing in general.
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GrahamJ
climber
In the rain
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Nov 13, 2011 - 04:25am PT
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BD's certifications almost eliminate the risk of "recycled beer cans" being turned into your cams. If it don't pass the test, it's not going to get to the store for you to buy. I'm as disappointed as the rest that BD moved most of it's manufacturing to China. My next set of cams will be Metolius, but not because BD doesn't make excellent gear. Stop this BD bashing, rumour-spreading, anecdotal crap ("oh this one time in China...") that belies the true nature of your complaint - that BD moved to China. Anybody ever heard of a BD cam failure? Anybody take notice that the only major gear failure issue BD's had recently was their sabertooth crampons (made in USA)? That their tool failures back in the day were when things were still made in the USA?
BD Certifications:
ISO 9001
Because Black Diamond is a company of climbers and freeride enthusiasts dedicated to producing the best climbing and ski gear possible, all of the products we manufacture and sell are constantly tested and improved upon. As of October 27, 1998, Black Diamond received ISO certification. ISO 9001 certification serves as a control process for companies with systems already in place to monitor design, manufacturing and testing. Our current certification helps to underscore Black Diamond's continuing commitment to producing the best gear possible.
3 SIGMA
To rate our climbing gear with a meticulous degree of accuracy, Black Diamond uses a rigorous, best-in-the-industry rating standard called Three Sigma. By batch testing our climbing equipment following 3 Sigma methodologies, we can ensure that there is a 99.87% probability that the strength of any item taken from the same batch will be above the rating. And though the rigorous 3 Sigma testing method results in a rated strength that is three standard deviations lower than the average value found during testing, we feel climbing hardware requires testing with an absolutely consistent and conservative approach to ensure the high levels of quality you have come to expect from Black Diamond.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 13, 2011 - 08:35am PT
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Failians were made in the good ol USA...
Lots of stuff made in china is great stuff. BD cams and mamute biners for example. Still SUCKS big time when USA jobs are lost to to this kind of outsorceing.
I guess what I am saying is I will still trust the gear but I will not like the company for shipping those jobs overseas.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 13, 2011 - 11:18am PT
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30% tax on imported climbing gear, that would screw BD big time when us Euro´s impose the same tarifs as well!
I though the Americans had learnt at least a little bit about the perils of knee-jerk nationalism, isolationism and protectionism in the last hundred years.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 13, 2011 - 11:38am PT
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Are these cams like Mad Rock shoes? Ill-fitting and fall apart after a year? No chinese crap on my rack. Even my North Face bag was made in the US.
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