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Cain J Waters
Mountain climber
Ithaca, NY
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Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 12, 2011 - 01:17pm PT
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My partner has US made C4s. I have a set of the newer China made ones. Any known differences between the two? Someone mentioned the colours are slightly different. We couldn't tell since ours are so worn out and faded.
So I guess this is what I'm trying to find out:
Can you tell which is made from where?
Any differences?
Anyone know more information on their factory overseas? Is QC done overseas or back in the US? Factory conditions for those manufacturing the cams?
Thanks.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 12, 2011 - 01:28pm PT
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You might. A buddy runs a major corporation. They've had nothing but problems
with the chinese substituting inferior materials for contractually agreed
upon ones. I mean yer prolly not gonna die if yer BBQ throws a rod but it
could be a different story with your BD cams.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 12, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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They make a lot of consumer electronic equipment in places like China, which if anything is manufactured to a higher standard. It's clearly possible.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Nov 12, 2011 - 03:37pm PT
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i'm pretty sure BD is running a tight ship over there and keeping them to spec..
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 12, 2011 - 04:25pm PT
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More to the point, do you think it's a good thing for manufacturing to disappear from the U.S. economic landscape? If there are alternatives (often aren't, many things simply are not made here or almost anywhere but China anymore), what you buy is your vote with your dollars about the future. Personally, I choose not to buy any more BD gear now that they've offshored it. There are excellent alternatives from Petzl, DMM, Totem, and so on.
And no, I don't think that any company can maintain the same level of QC over a product, especially a life-critical one, with manufacturing in China vs. here or elsewhere with standards for commerce, product safety, etc., that are similar to ours.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Nov 12, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
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Here is an article.
Just keep it in mind that Black Diamond is spinning the story that they are meeting minimum standards for workers, business, environment, ETC but those are CHINA STANDARDS.
That's right. Mimimum China Standards. That is a pretty low standard.
Mimimum wage in china is 1/10 of the US.
Human rights standards = zip.
All about money. That is all.
http://www.tetonat.com/2011/01/26/black-diamonds-vendor-code-of-conduct/
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laughingman
Ice climber
Seattle WA
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Nov 12, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
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It is my understanding that Black diamond actually owns and operates the factory's that produce the cams in china. Because of the "sue anything that moves" culture in the united states they hold production quality to a very high standard.
I still like metolius and WB Cams more (made in usa)
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Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
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Nov 12, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
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I don't buy Black Diamond any longer.
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GrahamJ
climber
In the rain
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Nov 12, 2011 - 09:35pm PT
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I don't understand this BD-hate. Do you hate on Marmot 'cause all their stuff is made in China? So BD moved the factory to china - yeah it sucks that folks in SLC lost jobs, but does that make the gear any less safe? It's a BD factory, same as it was in SLC, making BD gear. Held to the same standards as it was in SLC. Still 3 sigma rated, still meets or exceeds the same tests it did in SLC. I'd bet the raw materials for making any BD gear started coming from China well before they moved the factory there.
Protest BD's actions all you want, but don't say the gear isn't safe simply because it's made in China.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 12, 2011 - 09:39pm PT
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Good luck finding anything that ain't made at least partialy in china.. sucks but it is reality...
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Nov 12, 2011 - 11:29pm PT
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Buy Wired Bliss, lovingly manufactured in Flagstaff, Arizona. I have a bunch and they are my favorite cams of all my stuff.
I would like to try some of the new Clog and Totem stuff. Not made by slave labor and some interesting designs.
And YES, as a matter of fact I'm hating on Marmot for moving to china. I notice their prices have never gone down, but I'm sure the PROFIT margin is much greater when you switch to slave labor.
And for those that would say those jobs are the best jobs those people can get, my answer is let them make stuff for their own economy. Make them pay fair tarifs on stuff imported into the US. We have to in order to import stuff to China, they have a protectionist tarif scheme, we should to.
And as far as the original question, as an example there was a recent scandal in China where they were manufacturing a food item (seaweed, I belive) out of recycled plastic. I don't trust them as far as QC goes. It's all about the payoffs there.
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climbrunride
Sport climber
Golf Wall, CO
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Nov 13, 2011 - 02:05am PT
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It seems a little shortsighted to assume that everyone in a manufacturing job in the US is a model of perfection. I wouldn't trust a lot of those people with my life.
The myth that everything made here in the US is without flaw is just that, a myth. I'm not saying that everything made here is junk, but things can be made well just about anywhere.
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climbrunride
Sport climber
Golf Wall, CO
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Nov 13, 2011 - 02:06am PT
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Has anyone been complaining about Wild Country manufacturing in Taiwan?
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climbrunride
Sport climber
Golf Wall, CO
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Nov 13, 2011 - 02:22am PT
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I think that this thread is really just another example of the phenomenon of the most successful business in any area becoming a target for vilification. But the reason they achieved that success and became the biggest was because they did a great job and people bought their products.
Anyone who has never, ever bought a Chouinard or Black Diamond product, feel free to chime in here.
I am also reminded of several small manufacturers, making excellent quality products, who ended up moving their manufacturing elsewhere in order to save their business. (BD does not fit that category, but I thought of that for some reason.) Like Jandd, the pack and bike bag maker. The real estate prices in Santa Barbara had gotten so ridiculously high, their workers could no longer afford to live there. And they paid their workers more than similar US manufacturers. So they bought a building in Baja California and set up their own shop down there. And they were able to keep most of their same employees on board. I remember that Dave Sisson, the company's founder and owner, was heartbroken to be moving jobs out of the US. But it was better than all those people having no job at all.
So things like that are not always as simple as they first look, before getting into the details of it all.
BTW, didn't Crazy Creek start manufacturing in China because they were maxed out at their Montana plant and could not meet the demand for their chairs?
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T Moses
Big Wall climber
Paso Robles
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Nov 13, 2011 - 03:31am PT
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The full disclosure is I am in direct competition to BD and I have achip on my shoulder regarding China and manufacturing. I apologize if I come off sounding like a jerk but I live, eat, and breath American manufacturing every day. I felt like adding my two cents.
MH: "They make a lot of consumer electronic equipment in places like China, which if anything is manufactured to a higher standard. It's clearly possible."
Anything is possible but how likely is it that they realy make stuff to a higher standard?
The kid: "i'm pretty sure BD is running a tight ship over there and keeping them to spec.."
I believe they have employees of BD living there (China) to ensure quality control.
Laughingman: "It is my understanding that Black diamond actually owns and operates the factory's that produce the cams in china."
How is this possible in a "communist" country? By definition the workers own the factories?
Ron Anderson: "if you don't mind your cams made from reconstituted beer cans then id guess them to be fine."
China's metal quality is horrible. Learned this from raw experience. I refuse to buy non domestic metal and I buy 110,000 pounds of aluminum anually. The steel I make cam hooks out of is domestic also. To be completely fair the ingot that comes in is some times partialy foriegn but the alloying and proccesing are done in the US. The foreign mills don't hold tight tolerances on the alloying elements or the proccessing.
GrahamJ "It's a BD factory, same as it was in SLC, making BD gear."
I think you missed the part where it is in China. China has a well earned reputation of making cheap crap. I am totally suprised when I get something mechanical in nature that is well made Chinese
Climrunride: "It seems a little shortsighted to assume that everyone in a manufacturing job in the US is a model of perfection. I wouldn't trust a lot of those people with my life.
The myth that everything made here in the US is without flaw is just that, a myth. I'm not saying that everything made here is junk, but things can be made well just about anywhere."
I can agree with most of what you said. Not everyone has high standards in US manufacturing. I will argue that things cannot be made well just about anywhere. The maunfacturing infrastructure must be in place. The highly skilled workers must be trained. The material must be available. I could go on with the long list of things that need to be available to do high quality work. China has most of them but chooses quantity over quality to feed it's rapidly growing population needs.
Climrunride: "I am also reminded of several small manufacturers, making excellent quality products, who ended up moving their manufacturing elsewhere in order to save their business."
Hogue Grips here in town split their manufacturing into two locations (one in Paso, one in TJ Mexico) and has expanded both locations. Globalizing can be done right sometimes. This also demonstrates the hostile environment that the US has become to manufacturing in general.
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GrahamJ
climber
In the rain
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Nov 13, 2011 - 04:25am PT
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BD's certifications almost eliminate the risk of "recycled beer cans" being turned into your cams. If it don't pass the test, it's not going to get to the store for you to buy. I'm as disappointed as the rest that BD moved most of it's manufacturing to China. My next set of cams will be Metolius, but not because BD doesn't make excellent gear. Stop this BD bashing, rumour-spreading, anecdotal crap ("oh this one time in China...") that belies the true nature of your complaint - that BD moved to China. Anybody ever heard of a BD cam failure? Anybody take notice that the only major gear failure issue BD's had recently was their sabertooth crampons (made in USA)? That their tool failures back in the day were when things were still made in the USA?
BD Certifications:
ISO 9001
Because Black Diamond is a company of climbers and freeride enthusiasts dedicated to producing the best climbing and ski gear possible, all of the products we manufacture and sell are constantly tested and improved upon. As of October 27, 1998, Black Diamond received ISO certification. ISO 9001 certification serves as a control process for companies with systems already in place to monitor design, manufacturing and testing. Our current certification helps to underscore Black Diamond's continuing commitment to producing the best gear possible.
3 SIGMA
To rate our climbing gear with a meticulous degree of accuracy, Black Diamond uses a rigorous, best-in-the-industry rating standard called Three Sigma. By batch testing our climbing equipment following 3 Sigma methodologies, we can ensure that there is a 99.87% probability that the strength of any item taken from the same batch will be above the rating. And though the rigorous 3 Sigma testing method results in a rated strength that is three standard deviations lower than the average value found during testing, we feel climbing hardware requires testing with an absolutely consistent and conservative approach to ensure the high levels of quality you have come to expect from Black Diamond.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 13, 2011 - 08:35am PT
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Failians were made in the good ol USA...
Lots of stuff made in china is great stuff. BD cams and mamute biners for example. Still SUCKS big time when USA jobs are lost to to this kind of outsorceing.
I guess what I am saying is I will still trust the gear but I will not like the company for shipping those jobs overseas.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Nov 13, 2011 - 11:18am PT
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30% tax on imported climbing gear, that would screw BD big time when us Euro´s impose the same tarifs as well!
I though the Americans had learnt at least a little bit about the perils of knee-jerk nationalism, isolationism and protectionism in the last hundred years.
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 13, 2011 - 11:38am PT
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Are these cams like Mad Rock shoes? Ill-fitting and fall apart after a year? No chinese crap on my rack. Even my North Face bag was made in the US.
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Ihateplastic
Trad climber
It ain't El Cap, Oregon
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Nov 13, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
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Thanks Theron... Words from the wise!
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laughingman
Ice climber
Seattle WA
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Nov 13, 2011 - 01:33pm PT
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China's metal quality is horrible. Learned this from raw experience. I refuse to buy non domestic metal and I buy 110,000 pounds of aluminum anually. The steel I make cam hooks out of is domestic also. To be completely fair the ingot that comes in is some times partialy foriegn but the alloying and proccesing are done in the US. The foreign mills don't hold tight tolerances on the alloying elements or the proccessing.
True I suspect they might not use chinese metals in the production of the cams.
Also I am as sad as anyone that they moved production to china. I like when things are made in the USA.
Death of US manufacturing has been a long painful and slow process ( extremely exacerbated by globalism).
If one wants to make a statement to DB go buy a competitors cams. Metolius, Wired Bliss and European manufacturers (DMM, wild country) all make very good cams.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Nov 13, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
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GrahamJ
Anybody ever heard of a BD cam failure?
Yep.
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go-B
climber
Habakkuk 3:19 Sozo
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Nov 13, 2011 - 03:26pm PT
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The China ones work better in overhangs, because there manufactured upside down!
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GhoulweJ
Trad climber
El Dorado Hills, CA
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Nov 13, 2011 - 04:00pm PT
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I think this is an interesting topic for STopo:
Made in China:
lowers price big time so dirtbag lifestyle is easier.
Jobs to China make it harder for said dirtbag to make a buck to fill the fuel tank on his van.
China manufacturing is an environmental disaster. Air, water, land / soil... They just destroy it all.... They have enough people, they are just disposable.
On the flip side, you could say we avoided some pollution by sending the work to China.
Oh wait, the ship that brought here was bad, and so was the truck that brought the container from the port to the BD warehouse.
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Nov 13, 2011 - 04:16pm PT
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Made in China:
lowers price big time so dirtbag lifestyle is easier.
WTF? Bullshit!!
When did Black Diamond/Patagonia/NorthFace lower their prices?
Never!
The American companies actually have better prices on a lot of goods.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 13, 2011 - 04:26pm PT
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I though the Americans had learnt at least a little bit about the perils of knee-jerk nationalism, isolationism and protectionism in the last hundred years.
Please, we haven't learnt a damn thing since we tossed you Brits out and you know it. LOL
Moving along, BD hasn't had any Mfg issues from moving to China. Their cams are real well made to the point where you can't tell a Chinese one form a US one. I've been trying to personally move to non-Chinese made goods, but try to find a pair of shoes or pants, and I won't be tossing my Camalots away either. Metolius and Wired Bliss make great products, I own both, and would prefer to fall on either of those before any Black Diamond Camalot, no matter where the Mfg location was. So I'm not buying any cams from anyone (until Wired Bliss comes out with the 5,6,7 and 9's). Mostly as a guy can only own so many cams:-)
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Dr.Sprock
Boulder climber
I'm James Brown, Bi-atch!
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Nov 13, 2011 - 04:27pm PT
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if you set up shop in china, you need a full time QC guy from the states, otherwise they will often change the game in the middle of the street without you knowing, then you have lost customers. So is it really cheaper?
Once you burn a customer, they never forget. And then the word of mouth takes over and all of a sudden you are out of biz for reasons known only to the chineese. it is hard to get somebody good to QC a room full of smoke and 1000 people working under a 100 watt light bulb.
another way to lose is having your whole product copied while it is being made in china.
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philo
Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
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Nov 13, 2011 - 04:39pm PT
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Huge difference between "Lower Prices" and "Increased Profits".
Regardless of what the Corporate PR departments try to get you to believe, "Out Sourcing and "Off Shoring" are not done with any consideration of or to the US consumers. As far as the spurious notion that pollution is better over there than here s concerned, well the sentient humans are realizing that pollution is a global concern not just a local one. I am sure that appropriate analysis will show that all this "Out Sourcing and "Off Shoring" is a net increase in global pollution and a significantly heavier carbon footprint for these outdoor adventure companies.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 13, 2011 - 04:44pm PT
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fat@$$, that is a totally BS point: plenty of manufacturing in Germany, which has pretty stringent pollution standards too (probably much better than ours for power generation). Bottom line is, standards for treatment of human beings, the environment, and property (whether real or intellectual) in China are the absolute lowest of any major economy, and I think it's a bad idea to support that with our dollars. Quality and safety issues also are a concern, but that's the big one.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 13, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
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Unauthorized knockoffs of products made by BD and other reputable manufacturers seem a bigger concern than QC for anything they have made in China, under their direction. (I'll leave aside the related environmental, human rights, and economic issues.) IIRC, both BD and Petzl have been stung by crappy knockoffs made in Ukraine (?), and that's a djinn that's hard to get back in the box.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Nov 13, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
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MTucker,
Do you know the circumstances of those bent cams? Did that happen during some sort of test, or during actual use while climbing?
If it was while climbing, did the placements fail, or did they hold although the cam got mangled? How big of a fall?
The bottom one looks sort of like what happenned to one of mine when I backed my truck over it by mistake.
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rich sims
Social climber
co
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Nov 13, 2011 - 06:16pm PT
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One company I know of has two factories one in China and one in the USA. on the CA. border.
So everything made in the US, not by necessarily by US workers goes to Asia and everything made in China goes to Europe and the USA, there is a market for Made in America go figure.
Late 70s when I was paying $9.00 - 18.00 per hour, piece rate for sewing I saw a world labor rate study where Mexico was 75 cents Japan was 65 cents and some labor rates around the world were as low as 15 to 20 cents per hour.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 13, 2011 - 07:01pm PT
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I climb in mad rock flash shoes and they fit great and resole well. They last just as long as any sportiva or 5.10 shoes that I have had. I prefer them because they fit my feet the best and climb really well. wish that 5.10 would sell a decent shoe for under a hundred bucks but aparently Not.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Nov 13, 2011 - 09:11pm PT
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deeply breath the chinese air, you should be used to it by now.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Nov 13, 2011 - 09:19pm PT
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Walmart gear....I hold none of this. My gear is English & American, with a smattering of Italian.
Oh, & tiny French bits.
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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Nov 13, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
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China is now home to more counterfeit silver and gold coins than anywhere else, as well. I recently saw a news story that 110,000 counterfeit 1 oz, Silver Eagles were seized coming in to the U.S.
Before I retired in 2009, I was involved in purchasing some research chemicals for one of my projects. I had to return several batches that were manufactured in China as NON AUTHENTIC, or the wrong fukking stuff.
I have a very low opinion of Chinese quality control standards, in addition to the fact that chemical waste disposal = Yangtze River.
As far as climbing gear and any new cams or carabiners, I'm buying either Metolius or DMM.
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Oxymoron
Big Wall climber
total Disarray
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Nov 13, 2011 - 11:13pm PT
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They've been the home of counterfeit DVDs for as long as they've existed. As with CDs, and cassettes, ad infinitum. China=sketchy
Actions speak louder than words.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 13, 2011 - 11:32pm PT
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Let's not forget that during the rise of the US to imperial and industrial might, from say the 1830s on, it stoutly resisted attempts by other countries to get it to respect intellectual property rights. The US was in a ferment all through that time, and creating many things - but a lot of industrial processes and equipment, and many written things, were for practical purposes stolen from Europeans, often the British. The Chinese may now be going through a similar phase.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Nov 14, 2011 - 10:49pm PT
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This is from a few months ago. Now that BD is making their cams in China, it's completely relevant right now.
BLACK DIAMOND COMPANY UNDER NEW OWNERSHIP
What does the future of Black Diamond climbing equipment look like, now that it has a new owner?
First off all, the new owner, this character Warren Kanders, has a rather disturbing history with his last company, Armor Holdings. The whole story is available online, and from various other sources. Suffice to say, it played out as a tale of pure sordidness, comprising a veritable nosology of ethical dysfunction. Kanders sold Armor Holdings to BAE (a foreign arms company) for billions, and with some of the cash bought Black Diamond.
Now that Kanders owns Black Diamond, through a holding company, I would not expect different behavior from him. I would basically say that the corner was turned at the moment that Kanders assumed control of the company. That is not to say that BD gear is crap now, but BD is absolutely a different company now, and that could possibly mean that BD gear IS crap. Certainly, past BD quality can not be ascribed to the BD gear being made now, as if things are the same as before. In effect, BD gear now has to be treated the way you would treat gear from some new, unknown start-up company.
Would you trust "Whippo" brand cams that cost 66 bucks for a set of six at Wal-Mart? Would you trust those same cams, if they cost $66 each at REI? What if you knew that Whippo Cam Company was once associated with a famous climber, but not any more? What if Whippo cams lost a key employee, because he was able to cash out in a big way, when a new owner took over? Or if the key employee was forced out over "philosophical differences"? What if the new owner of Whippo cams was some rotund socialite guy in New York City, who can't even do one pull-up, and could never lead even a 5.0 pitch? What if Mr. Whippo's idea of "enjoying the great outdoors" is serving the reproductive organs of an endangered species to his high-society pals on the rainforest-timbered deck of his monster yacht, which burns 1000 gallons of diesel fuel per hour, generating a 20,000 horsepower shoreline-destroying wake, as it lazily cruises up the Hudson River Valley? What if that same company owner once pocketed a little extra money making shoddy life-protecting products, and many people were killed? And the resulting $30 million settlement was entered into his official accounting ledger as a "normal cost of doing business"? What if "Whippo" brand cams looked just like other cams that were known in the past to be safe?
The presence of Warren Kanders at Black Diamond is, and will remain, a wild card with respect to quality and safety issues. Kanders might officially declaim any of the day-to-day responsibility for running the Company (maybe as a tactic to insulate himself from personal liability exposure). And he might reassure the climbing community that so-and-so will be managing the company, and has a track record, etc., etc. But, at the end of the day, Kanders owns the company and controls what happens. And at the end of the day, the black cloud of his behavior at Armor Holdings is not going to go away, no matter what his press releases want you to believe.
I may have it all wrong about Warren Kanders. He may have found God, sold his piece of the military-industrial complex as part of his religious conversion, and has now dedicated his life to saving other people's lives by tireless work to make sure Black Diamond climbing gear becomes better and better, etc., etc.
But, at a glance, he doesn't present that sort of gestalt, at least not to me.
Second, Black Diamond is already having backpacks and softgoods made in China. It would be reasonable to extrapolate the trend to climbing gear. It would also be reasonable that the company would not be anxious to broadcast, "All our cams and carabiners are now proudly made in China." It would not be surprising to learn that a company would find a way to mislabel their gear, perhaps with "Designed in USA", as a marketing gimmick. Many companies have invoked the Barnum Imperative when dealing with their customers, and I see no reason why Black Diamond won't now be that type of company, given the documented track record of the new owner.
Reliable Chinese manufacturing requires a level of attention that is at direct opposition with what a typical bean counter fixates on: spending as little money as possible. This sort of MBA-drone exists to maximize corporate profits. It's what he does. It's all he does. And he simply will not stop until he has squeezed every nanocent of "waste" from a manufacturing process.
It's almost self-defeating for a corporation to outsource manufactured goods in China, and then pay a reasonable salary for a team of competent supervisors to ensure quality. If BD starts having climbing gear made in China, I would see that as a clear warning to any would-be users. The track record of unsupervised Chinese manufacturing speaks for itself. Will Black Diamond pay $100,000 a year each, to five or ten supervisors, to live full-time in China, and supervise the factory? Or will BD decide to simply pay a few "senior" factory workers an extra $10 per day and give them shiny, tin-plated "Quality Control" badges?
Different processes can be used to create parts, and lead to different properties. Which is not exactly obvious. If 6061 aluminum lobes are punched out of a plate, there will be residual stresses. If the factory does not take this into account (i.e., heat treat the lobes) those parts will look exactly like parts cut with a CNC mill, but will have different structural behavior. Because stamping parts out of aluminum seems quick and cheap, a Chinese factory is going to want to do it that way. But, they are not going to want to use annealed 6061, punch the parts out, and then properly heat treat them. Hardened 6061 is more common, and any sort of heat treatment is an extra step that costs more money. In other words, "Parts look same. Must be same. Why pay more?"
By the way, I think BD might punch out their lobes now, maybe they have for quite some time. This is a perfectly valid way to make lots and lots of lobes. As long as the process was validated to produce the expected results, complete with testing, there would not be a problem. I would think that BD, in the past, would have been responsible enough to test and validate a new production process. But, I don't know if that would be true now. A foreign production manager might be able to spin a good story about how an alternative process will not make any difference. Why not do a faster, cheaper process to secure the cable loop? How about using Sooper-Gloo? Looks same - must be same.
Third, even if the manufacturer in China is competent, and adequate quality control exists at the factory, there is still the issue with quality assurance with the material. Specifically, the aluminum alloys must be competently produced. And, generally speaking, the less you pay, the less reliable the material. The typical MBA will want to reduce costs. And the typical MBA may not realize (or care) that "Looks Same - Must Be Same" metals may be seriously impaired, with respect to strength, ductility, etc. All aluminum alloys look about the same, but they are not the same. If a specification for alloy 6061-T6 looks like Greek to a purchasing agent, and he orders some different, cheaper "aluminum" material, the resulting cams might wind up in the Mountain Shop, violently broken in the Stove Legs, and lastly handled by lawyers seeking a wrongful-death lawsuit settlement (which might simply wind up in the Black Diamond accounting ledger as a "normal cost of doing business").
Finally, it is instructive to remember what happened when another climbing equipment company was sold, and changed ownership. The North Face, a manufacturer of backpacks, sleeping bags, tents and jackets, bought A5. A5 was founded by a serious climber, and was a bad-assed company that produced gear for hard-core, serious climbers. After buying A5, North Face sold t-shirts imprinted with a big A5 logo ("Look how bad-assed and hard-core I am!") and stopped making piton hammers, bird beaks, portaledges and all the other A5 climbing gear. Some bean counter calculated there was more money in selling t-shirts, than in selling climbing hardware. The clever bean counter also calculated that poseurs, perhaps tugging at bondo on a cruise ship's "climbing" wall, would pay good money to declare to the world,
Look how bad-assed and hard-core I am! I'm wearing a t-shirt that says, 'A5'! Do you know how rad it is to lead an A5 pitch?!? I'm a bad-assed MoFo by proxy - look at my A5 shirt!
A5 climbing gear is no longer available from North Face, which, from a safety standpoint, is probably for the best.
AFTERWORD: AN EXAMPLE OF A CHINESE-MADE METAL
My friend is a plumber, and he installed a new 2" galvanized steel natural gas line that would not hold pressure. When he installs a new gas line, he caps off the pipe, pressurizes it with air, and sees if the gauge drops over time. He found the small leak in the brand new, Chinese-made SCH 40 galvanized steel pipe, and swapped it out. When I sawed through the pipe at the leak, there was a conical, crater-shaped defect, all the way through the steel, that had left only a tiny hole on the outer surface. The hot-dip galvanizing (zinc plating) had almost closed off the hole, but not quite. Had the zinc galvanizing closed the hole, and the pipe pass inspection, it would have spontaneously developed a leak at some later date, producing an explosion hazard. The hole would have absolutely opened up, because the zinc is consumed in the process of protecting the steel against corrosion. The only question would have been, "When will the pipe start leaking?"
And that was just a piece of SCH 40 galvanized steel pipe, which is much easier to reliably produce than 6061 aluminum alloy.
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GrahamJ
climber
In the rain
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Nov 14, 2011 - 11:51pm PT
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I dunno man, I don't see a lot of fact in that letter. I see several anecdotal bits ("my friend the plumber", a note about a completely unrelated issue TNF and A5 for example) and whole lot of speculation. An awful lot of your statements begin with "if". All of which ignoring the fact that BD has a BD factory over there, not a contractor factory, and that they have quite rigorous quality control - namely in the form of ISO standards and 3 sigma ratings. That's Fact. It's also fact that BD has been producing hardgoods (cams, ice tools, etc..) over there for more than a "few months". Years I believe.
For anybody of reasonable intelligence to take a letter like yours seriously, you need to present facts and not speculation. Right now it's just an anti-China rant that happens to mention BD.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 14, 2011 - 11:58pm PT
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Mighty Hiker is probably right about lack of respect for intellectual property rights by U.S. manufacturers in the 1800s. But that is exactly the point: China is operating its commercial world much like ruthless businesses did in the 19th and early 20th centuries, while the rest of the world has moved on to what most of us would agree are more defensible and certainly more sustainable ways of treating society and the planet. That's EXACTLY why I think it's a bad idea to support regressing to 50-150 years ago by moving so much manufacturing and food supply to China.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Nov 15, 2011 - 02:14am PT
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Seems like we are shipping all of our jobs over there and the only thing that is coming back is our gradual decline to their wage rate.
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Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
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Nov 15, 2011 - 02:28am PT
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Ok everyone time for the metaphorical boxer shorts test
Line up-hike up your unmentionables, flip the elastic and twist around to read the "made in" label. All those sporting something approximating USA, as you were. The rest, well, don't get your panties in a twist.
the particular pair of Pataguccis I am wearing are made in the USA!!!
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sandstone conglomerate
climber
sharon conglomerate central
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Nov 15, 2011 - 09:06am PT
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I had the pleasure of bouncing from job to job during the craze to send all of our labor overseas, mostly menial labor jobs that didn't pay sh#t to begin with. In every one of these places, and I mean every one of them, there was the push to get the operation cranking in China. The division between management and labor in this country is vast, especially considering that most people in management aren't qualified to be giving orders to a broom, let alone the person pushing it. They were, however very good and boot-licking and ass-kissing. The too-many managers would be laughing at the prospect of the chinese basically working for food. All the while, the people who actually did the soon-to-be-outsourced labor were wondering what was going to happen to their livelihood. A few more years, and few more cracks in the system, and all of this will begin to backfire. We haven't seen anything yet.
Too bad about BD. Yet another sell-out.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Nov 15, 2011 - 09:09am PT
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see it all the time in the construction industry.
go buy something that you need, its from china . presto it breaks, requiring another trip to the store. creating wasted time. its all part of the plan.
its sad to lose a company we climbed up with.
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Nov 15, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
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This is slightly OT. Not directly related to BD, but on how in China concerns of safety and quality are sacrificed in a race for money. My Chinese friends in the US talk a lot about how their relatives in China worry they just don't know what they are eating nowadays.
A Chinese American buddy of mine, who travels to China for business every 2-3 months, says he never eats in the same restaurant twice and eats minimally while he's in China. A business colleague of his, with a wife and kids, died from drinking who-knows-what in a bar in Shenzhen. They think he ingested some industrial chemical that was used as a cheap substitute for alcohol. There was no investigation, and even if there was, no one would have been found guilty or charged. My buddy says he'll never go for a drink as its just too risky. He has been going to China since the late '80's. China is well known for hushing up safety scandals.
I'm sure this will generate some comments from the people who go to China and live there, that they haven't died yet :)
Thanks for posting your comments upthread, Tom. I'll be buying other brands instead of BD, especially when it comes to gear that my life could be hanging from. Its a real bummer the way many business values work these days.
China wrestles with food safety problems
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-china-food-20110627,0,5246485,full.story
In China, what you eat tells who you are
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-china-elite-farm-20110917,0,7521747,full.story
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 15, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
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I'm sure this will generate some comments from the people who go to China and live there that they haven't died yet :)
I spend time in China now and again, eat whatever is put in front of me, including street food, and don't worry about it any more than I worry about eating in the US.
Which is not to say that I don't worry about it, but rather that it is not a China-only issue. There are plenty of deaths from contaminated food in the US and Europe. Much of this is from unsanitary handling of fruits and vegetables, but some has the same root cause as what you accuse the Chinese of: Greedily going for profit and not caring about the consequences to those who eat what you produce. It was just a couple of years ago, for example, that a peanut company in Georgia was found to have continued shipping its products despite knowing they were contaminated. Nine people died, and over 22,000 became sick.
Should we therefore assume that food in the US is dangerous, and heap as much abuse as possible on the country?
Likewise with manufacturing. As someone pointed out, the production of Aliens has hardly been a shining example of US manufacturing quality. So why shouldn't we immediately dump all US-made gear and start buying Chinese? Can anyone on this forum post an example of failure of Chinese-made climbing hardware?
Shoddy work will be done anywhere that unscrupulous people believe they can get away with it. That certainly includes China, but it also includes every other country in the world. Does China need to work to ensure that products made there meet health and safety standards? Of course. And China is working on it.
Just out of curiosity, how many of the posters on this thread who talk about shoddy Chinese goods, dangerous Chinese food, and inhumane Chinese slave labor have actually spent any time in that country?
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Nov 15, 2011 - 01:39pm PT
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So does this mean they'll now have lead lobes?
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Nov 15, 2011 - 02:05pm PT
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Just out of curiosity, how many of the posters on this thread who talk about shoddy Chinese goods, dangerous Chinese food, and inhumane Chinese slave labor have actually spent any time in that country?
Ghost, I spent a couple years there, mostly in the '80's. Travelled all over the country, mostly in the more remote west (Xinjiang, Qinghai and Tibet). I went to a Chinese university for awhile. Speaking of slave labour, I passed through an asbestos mine where prisoners were doing reform through labour (in the most west corner of Qinghai), but didn't realize what was happening until later. I spent 8 years in Asia. Haven't been to China since 1997. I thought it was polluted before, am sure glad I don't live there now. Was an Asian studies/Chinese language major once upon a time.
My comments about food safety are based on what Chinese are telling me.
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Nov 15, 2011 - 04:31pm PT
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FortMental has the right idea above. The main problem with BD gear in the future is not a factory in China. The problem is Warren Kanders and his partner Robert Schiller. These two ran Armor Holdings through a whole string of "business decision" moral lapses that did, indeed (FACT: GrahamJ) lead to unnecessary deaths. They are now chairman and vice-chairman of Black Diamond, Inc. and they control the company.
Those two were able to endanger the lives of many people through their business practices at their U.S. factories. They didn't have to go to China.
Are the new cams even marked, "Made in China"? Or does that only appear on the throw-away hang tag?
How will people in the future be able to tell a pre-Kanders cam from the other ones?
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 15, 2011 - 05:04pm PT
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Just out of curiosity, how many of the posters on this thread who talk about shoddy Chinese goods, dangerous Chinese food, and inhumane Chinese slave labor have actually spent any time in that country?
Here. However, I understand from Expats who live, work and play there (and capably speak the lingo) that it is significantly worse that you would see passing through or on a cursory trip or visit. Significantly worse. For myself, I just eat and drink everything figuring that ignorance is bliss. I mean, there are few places in the world can you pick up a beautiful, real gold, Patek Philippe watch for less than 50 bucks. In France they're often over $100,000 US dollars.
Real gold ...uh huh. The watch works though.
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Stewart Johnson
climber
lake forest
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Nov 15, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
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i have been to china 5 times,for a total time of 16 months.
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frog-e
Trad climber
Imperial Beach California
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Nov 20, 2011 - 11:24am PT
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Been to China on Business. Manufacturing sporting goods. Selecting a quality vendor, in China, is the same as selecting a quality vendor, here.
QA/QC is supposedly lower..in China?
Would Gucci or DKNY make suits jackets and all kinds of expensive bags there, if quality was poor? Lol.
BMW makes their awesome motorcycles (dual sport) in China. The bikes are used all over the world, and seem great. Better than their cars!
Does US manufacturing in China negatively effect our economy in multiple ways?
Yes.
When will this change?
When we (US citizens) boycott those products, and not until.
For crying out loud, making climbing hardware, has to be one of the lowest margin, high overhead things one could make. If you are going to go on a tangent about made in Asia, then go after the freaking clothing companies...
You will always find the worst labor infractions in the clothing business.
Does making climbing gear in China make it less reliable? No.
Does making Camalots in China mean trigger failure? NO, that's bad design. Easy to confuse.
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steve shea
climber
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Nov 20, 2011 - 11:50am PT
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I once had a delicious dinner of tibetan mastif served over sticky rice by our honorable hosts the Han Chinese military. This was at a garrison near Tingri. They did not cut any corners and bred the dogs especially for our UNICEF exped. Can't comment on BD, Metolius for me
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Nov 20, 2011 - 12:56pm PT
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I like that line Luke Askew has about his horse in Culpepper Cattle Co. about not naming anything that he might have to eat.
frog-e is right BOYCOTT BLACK DIAMOND.
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frog-e
Trad climber
Imperial Beach California
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Nov 20, 2011 - 01:46pm PT
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^^^ LOL
Well Ron, sorta. What I mean is, it seems we 'vote' w/ our discretionary income. So vote how you feel.
FWIW, I see more justification building climbing gear in Asia, than I can see for the specialty outdoor clothing business.
The clothing business is much bigger volume wise, much more lost revenue, lost jobs, etc.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 20, 2011 - 11:04pm PT
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Ron, is your opposition to Black Diamond based solely on the fact that it has some of its products manufactured in China, or are there other reasons?
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MTucker
Ice climber
Arizona
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Nov 20, 2011 - 11:57pm PT
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Ron is an all American gun toting western guy. Or they didn't give him any free gear.
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Yamabushi
Mountain climber
Silverton/Durango
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Nov 21, 2011 - 04:59am PT
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as far as i know, re-slinging of their cams are still done here in u.s. at slc. all the camalot owners should re-sling their cams for one more time before they lose that facility here. just like when you want to send any chinese made stuff (patagonia, tnf included) for repair they usually give you a new one instead of repairing it since the cost is usually cheaper to give a new one than repairing something with american labor.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Nov 21, 2011 - 05:23am PT
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Copied from the crampon thread, hopefully for transparency...
What about CMAC adding a section to his gear reviews that provides information about the manufacturing practices of the gear makers.
That might be nuts, but didn't someone posit, "It takes balls to use nuts"? It might spark an interesting conversation with Jello, get some Patagonia traffic, or?
I once talked to an Asian business studies prof. He said he would choose Vietnam over China.
CMAC?, calling Mr. CMAC?
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Nov 21, 2011 - 09:42am PT
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Patagonia has that video series called the footprint chronicles. Very interesting how and where something is made. It's not just a "Made in China" situation. Often, parts come from all over and are assembled somewhere else. It's interesting...
In that same vein, when the BD C4s in China thing first became "controversial" 4 or 5 years ago, (yeah this is OLD news) I thought someone threw out the story that cam PARTS are still made in the USA then shipped overseas for final assembly before being shipped back?
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Nov 21, 2011 - 12:01pm PT
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I am calling for an ST protest:
From now on when referring to Black Diamond in an ST post with an abbreviation I will only do it in lower case.
Take that bd.
Fight the power.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 21, 2011 - 12:44pm PT
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gf,
Thanks for a thoughtful and well-expressed post. Most refreshing.
Earlier in this thread I noted my friend's problems there. His company has
decided to manufacture their more critical items in Taiwan where they have
had much better results with quality. They're willing to pay a little more
for peace of mind.
Humorous side story -
On a tour of a plant there Jon was walking along thinking the slab looked
awfully 'green'. After gazing upwards at the steel rising far above his head
he used his shoe to create a respectably sized divot in the weeks-old slab.
His well-educated opinion was there was little, if any, cement in the concrete.
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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Nov 21, 2011 - 12:50pm PT
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I'm sure in ten years bd will simply be making their overpriced gloves and ski boots that you can buy at any "sporting goods" shop.
Edit: I bet the hooks and pins will be the first thing they chop, since REI doesn't sell them anymore.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Nov 21, 2011 - 02:34pm PT
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The fascinating thing about the east coast and central china right now is the acute labour shortage. The one child policy has created a nation of "little emperors" whose parents and 4 grandparents dote on their every move and pour all their energy into helping them get good school test results. The net result is a nation of memorizers who can get into decent schools but view any kind of "boring" work as beneath them Hey I got an idea. How about they ship all of their jobs that they don't want to do over here.
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Vin
Trad climber
Louisiana
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Nov 21, 2011 - 05:51pm PT
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I have to say it does make me a little nervous. I wanted to point out that stating ISO 9001 certification really isn't much. This just shows that a process is repeatable per company standard. That process could include stamping a biner, taking a swig of beer and then stamping the next. As long as you follow your set process, you are ISO 9001. While getting ISO 9001 certified is a very strenuous process, it really means nothing unless the certified processes are known.
As far as the 3 sigma goes, I believe they are using the Interference Theory of Reliability Prediction, which is exactly that...a hypothetical prediction. So if I'm correct, 3 sigma roughly translates to between a 0.2% and 0.1% chance of failure. Giving BD the edge and assuming 0.1% chance of failure and say 500,000 units produced means 500 will hypothetically fail...It's really the nature of the beast, and while this is just a prediction, BD really does put their product through constant strenuous testing to ensure that failures do not occur and that defective parts are not circulated into production. I also think they proof test each cam which consists of loading the device to a point below the yield stress(i.e. failure point) of the weakest component...if they don't, they really should.
As far as the materials go, I am a design engineer and I do a lot of work overseas. We can't use Chinese steel or other metals because it is notoriously under rated, poorly manufactured and unable to meet stress testing required for material tracing in the components and structures we design...Not Saying BD uses Chinese materials, in fact I'm sure they import their materials for this same reason, probably from Germany(really great metallurgists).
I think that BD has a good grip on being, what I believe to be, the best manufacturer of climbing gear. I hardly think they would overlook the product of a new production facility without ensuring that the products are the best that they can be. If my cams come from china, and have a legit BD stamp, I'll continue to plug and go. But I hope the ones I purchase are from the US, I'd rather keep the money at home.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 21, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
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I worked for two manufacturing companies in Silicon Valley when they went through their ISO 9001 certification in the early 90's.
The best summation of ISO 9001 is that after certification the company will still make the same crap they always did with the same quality (or lack of quality) but they will thoroughly document how they make their crap, and it will be more expensive to cover the ISO overhead.
To me quality doesn't just happen, it has to be ingrained in a corporate culture. Too often I've experienced management that is more concerned with short term performance numbers to make themselves look good by taking long term shortcuts in safety and quality.
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wack-N-dangle
Gym climber
the ground up
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Nov 21, 2011 - 07:10pm PT
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miwuk
I bet the hooks and pins will be the first thing they chop, since REI doesn't sell them anymore.
one last post. if i remember...look up the source
in college i learned miwuk means people
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Nov 22, 2011 - 12:17am PT
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@ Vin - 3 Sigma doesn't mean that 0.1% will FAIL catastrophically as you seem to imply, simply that they won't meet their STATED rating.
Cribbed from another site to save time...
Example: Carabiner Ratings
Engineers test a random sample of carabiners under international standards using a machine called a tensile tester, which literally stretches the carabiners until they break. They determine the average, or mean, breaking strength of the batch. From this data they also calculate the average deviation from the mean, called the "standard deviation," symbolized by the Greek letter sigma. The standard deviation represents the variation of breaking strengths within a given group of samples. If the biners are rated three standard deviations less than the average breaking strength, 99.87% of the biners will be stronger than the rating.
So let's say we break 20 biners with an average strength of 6000 lb, and with a standard deviation of 100 lb. The Three Sigma rating would be 6000 - (3 x 100), or 5700 lb. The Three Sigma standard tells us that only 2 in a batch of 1000 biners might not meet the 5700 lb rating.
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Moof
Big Wall climber
Orygun
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Nov 22, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
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Isn't that the key?
There's no such thing as risk-free. I thought this was why we use redundancy...
If the metal is crap, won't that surface in the testing?
If other manufacturers aren't using 3-sigma or doing consistent QA pull testing, how do we know their biners are any better than those of the manufacturer who is?
The only way to know how strong something actually is requires destruction. Statistical assurance and batch sampling all but eliminates the chance that something bogus makes it to the field, but if you work in any sort of manufacturing environment you will be humbled by the bizarre sets of circumstances that allow chinks in that armor to show up.
All that said, the number of cams that have fallen apart in the field is rather low. A few aliens died. A few link cams shattered. There simply isn't a rash of dead climbers due to bad gear. Vigilance is still absolutely needed, but I don't see the need for any alarm over any particular manufacturer.
I still wait a year before buying any new shiny object after their release. Unexpected things come up like the GriGri 2, recalled biners, recalled cams, etc. No need to be a guinea pig...
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 22, 2011 - 02:00pm PT
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The only way to be assured that climbing gear is safe is that there is 100% proof testing. This is done in the firearms industry, every firearm is tested with a proof load, a load that is above the working load, but under the yield strength of the gun. If the gun is defective, it will be discovered by proof testing.
But due to cost savings, the climbing industry does not do 100% proof testing. 3 sigma does not mean that there will be no defective gear sold, only that statistically it will be unlikely. If there are 1 or 2 biners out of a lot that have defects and they don't fall into the random sample, then they will not be found.
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Nov 22, 2011 - 02:04pm PT
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The reason is not cost savings. It's because testing to half strength is all you want to do without damaging the gear. Any more would be a somewhat destructive test. It's still good enough for a "proof" test and is well above "typical" working load.
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tolman_paul
Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
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Nov 22, 2011 - 02:39pm PT
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China has a reputation for producing shoddy dangerous products and taking shortcuts whenever they can. That is not a stereotype, it's well documented.
So, can you provide docmentation of Swiss, British, French or other European manufacturing countries that have put poison in food products, lead in children's toys, or substituted inferior metals when producing fasteners etc?
It comes down to a country with a history of getting away with whatever they can, and other countries that try their best to produce quality products.
I've been involved in manufacturing and either a company and it's employees have a quality mindset, or they don't. No program is going to instill something that is counter to the corporate culture.
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Matt M
Trad climber
Alamo City
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:01pm PT
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China has a reputation for producing shoddy dangerous products and taking shortcuts whenever they can. That is not a stereotype, it's well documented.
You CAN NOT simplify it that much and that's what most if not all this debate about BD (and many other climbing companies) boils down to. You MIGHT be able to stereotype as certain industry or production sector but you simply cannot lump all things China into shoddy/dangerous/shortcuts.
Nearly all of Apple Inc's products are made in China (iPhone, MacBooks etc) and their quality is second to none in most cases. These are products FAR more complicated than a cam or biner. Heck, the PACKAGING most products come in is often better than some competitors actual item. This doesn't happen without massive control of your production process.
So I look at the company I purchase from as much as the Product itself.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:15pm PT
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Chiounard used to load ALL their biners to half strength. there was a visible dent on the boner that proved it had been tested.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:20pm PT
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You are confusing us with facts....but thanks for your comments
Another fact that is often forgotten is that Chinese manufacturers, like manufacturers everywhere, make products according to specifications given to them by their customers.
So when the made-in-China 29-piece tool set you bought at Wal-Mart for $14.99 turns out to be junk, you might ask why before reflexively blaming shoddy manufacturing in China.
Much of that sort of shoddy garbage is spec'ed to be shoddy garbage by companies like Wal-Mart, because they know that their customers are too short-sighted to ever ask how a 29-piece tool set can possibly sell for $15.
Edit to add: This is not to say their aren't plenty of people in China who are willing to cut corners and deliver sub-spec goods. But such people exist in all countries -- including the US.
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adatesman
climber
philadelphia, pa
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:23pm PT
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Or is he confusing us with marketing? I seem to recall reports coming out recently regarding problems with Apple's supply chain WRT to documentation of environmental and workplace environment issues. IIRC Apple flew Chinese speaking employees over there, only to have them be told everything is fine and be quickly shuffled out the door. Not to say that everything in made in China is roses, but the report I heard on NPR regarding Apple was quite surprising.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 22, 2011 - 06:30pm PT
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There are surely legitimate concerns about at least some products manufactured in China, and indeed other developing countries, often in east or south Asia. Labour standards, product quality, environmental protection, general reputation of the manufacturer, the politics of the places where they come from, and so on. But some of the concerns expressed seem somewhat paternalistic, as though the Chinese are incapable of making decisions for themselves. Maybe sometimes, but always? And some of the concerns, and how they're expressed, verge on racism. You half expect someone to start ranting about the nefarious yellow peril, and other xenophobic nonsense.
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Studly
Trad climber
WA
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Nov 22, 2011 - 09:15pm PT
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Chinese manufacturing has some of the worse and some of the best manufacturers on the planet. The tide is quickly turning, and as they re-tool and refine, their quality in all things improves. Also take into account that a buyer gets what they pay for. To lump all manufacturers in China into one bunch is ignorant. Take a look at the Skyscrapers in Shanghai, or consider that China is now in space, and going to the moon soon. Don't think because you have bought a crap product from China, it is because that is what the Chinese are capable of. Its a big planet, and the Chinese now supply it all. Pretty scary.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Dec 22, 2011 - 11:36am PT
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skating on stilts
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damo62
Social climber
Brisbane
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Feb 26, 2012 - 06:17pm PT
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China will make a product to the standard they are paid for.
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mike m
Trad climber
black hills
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Feb 26, 2012 - 07:18pm PT
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I used the new petzl ice tools yesterday they sound like I was banging a lawn chair into the ice but they weigh half as much as my current tools and are the bomb.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Feb 26, 2012 - 07:43pm PT
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I'm no longer a BD customer.... Not that they care.
It's not worth my life to roll the dice on Chinese garbage.
For a company that produces something in such relatively low volumes such as climbing cams there is no reason for them to produce them with slave labor.
I have yet to hear about any climber I know buying this cam or that cam based on price.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Feb 26, 2012 - 08:51pm PT
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^possibly hooked...
I have yet to hear about any climber I know buying this cam or that cam based on price.
Listen.
I am a new climber with a shiny new rack that's less than a year old. I bought a bunch of WC Tech Friends on closeout (b/c heliums were coming out) for dirt cheap. Most people prefer c4s it seems, but I was budget conscious. I then picked up .75-2 c4s when on sale and don't seem to have any preference between the two brands - and the slight size differences make them a great complimentary doubles set. Master cams were purchased on sale also for my small stuff.
Ever read any of the "are rock empire cams gonna kill me?" posts? Those climbers are specifically searching for the cheapest [retail] price. I just wait for a sale and stick with the major brands. Seems the only deadly climbing gear coming out of China is the counterfeit stuff.
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apogee
climber
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Feb 27, 2012 - 01:04am PT
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OK, there's a bunch of die-hard BD fanatics who will stand by BD until they die because their # 2 Camalot failed. Good on ya for remaining loyal.
Answer me this, kiddos...name three products that were originally made in the US, then offshored to China, that now retain the same level of quality, and good reputation, as they had when they were produced domestically?
<'Jeopardy' music>
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Feb 27, 2012 - 02:15am PT
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When I did a brief stint with Audi a few years ago
I was told that the units built in China stayed in the that market,
as they felt the quality standards of those units
wouldn't be acceptable in the European or American
Markets.
I'm not sure if that same philosophy was used by
the parent company, Volkswagen, regarding their production.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Feb 27, 2012 - 05:31am PT
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Randisi, interesting. If you punch in "dalian liaoning china map" in google and use satellite view you can get an eyeful of your harbor. Lots of untreated lines running straight into the ocean and you can even see a Chinese aircraft carrier under construction.
No one should be naive about why U.S. companies go to China - it's the money - and a component of that money is avoiding U.S. pollution controls. We import manufactured goods while exporting our manufacturing pollution. It's a bargain with a lot of long term downsides for both us and the Chinese people.
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jeff_m
Social climber
700' up
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Feb 27, 2012 - 11:51am PT
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Funny this is still going on, but...
Old BD sling tag: "BD USA - Tested Three Sigma"
New BD sling tag: "Warning - Climbing is dangerous"
Kinda sums it up.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Feb 27, 2012 - 12:23pm PT
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When 30' over my last 'bomber' #2 Camalot, I don't want to be hoping that they "got it right" in China.
I'm sure China will eventually be cranking out some good products but the fact remains that it's cheaper over there because of slave labor and no environmental controls. How many American companies have used poisonous fillers in baby formula to make a profit?
Why buy critical life-saving equipment from such a vendor when we still have a choice of other brands? Is saving $30 or $40 bucks a cam really that big a deal on something that can last 10 years?
Of more concern to me is that it's obvious Black Diamond has gone malignant/corporate with such a move. Of course such a move makes sense for BD Inc. in the short-term. I'm sure the bonuses this year will be fantastic.
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miwuksurfer
Social climber
Mi-Wuk
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Feb 27, 2012 - 12:54pm PT
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I know this has been noted more than once in various threads but...
Regardless of where they are produced, BD cam production is now directed by Warren Kanders of Armour Holdings fame. He also owns luxury hotels and spas. He is making executive decisions about your climbing gear.
He probably has no idea who the AAC or Access Fund or ASCA is. He probably couldn't pick his own BD ATC from a Reverso in a lineup.
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surfstar
climber
Santa Barbara, CA
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Feb 27, 2012 - 01:29pm PT
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When 30' over my last 'bomber' #2 Camalot, I don't want to be hoping that they "got it right" in China.
That'd be a hell of a lawsuit. Doesn't matter how many 'climbing is dangerous' labels are there. If you can prove their gear failed in a way it shouldn't, you [or your widow] will be set. You can put some 'spinners' on your wheelchair. "bling, bling"
Is MSG more dangerous to climbers than Chinese Camalots? Another thing to worry about...
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James Wilcox
Boulder climber
The Coast
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Feb 27, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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BD cam production is now directed by Warren Kanders of Armour Holdings fame. He also owns luxury hotels and spas. He is making executive decisions about your climbing gear.
Yeah, it might be time to retire the photo of Yvon hammering
away on his anvil whenever they talk about their "roots".
Those aren't the type of roots you can buy.
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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Feb 27, 2012 - 05:24pm PT
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"Regardless of where they are produced, BD cam production is now directed by Warren Kanders of Armour Holdings fame. He also owns luxury hotels and spas. He is making executive decisions about your climbing gear"
Exactly! And coupled with China's reputation.....enough said! See ya bd!
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Feb 27, 2012 - 05:38pm PT
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I was told to stay off the Bay Bridge after they used Chinese steel.
2 weeks later it cracked under stress and shot a beam strait through the asphalt on the freeway.
LUCKILY! I'm already gonna die, and i'm not climbing a bridge. I do need a new rack, i'll probably get Metolius cams. Then the rack after will be BD for sure.
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Ben Harland
Gym climber
Kenora, ON
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Feb 27, 2012 - 06:21pm PT
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When 30' over my last 'bomber' #2 Camalot, I don't want to be hoping that they "got it right" in China.
If you check out "The Long Hope", you'll see Dave MacLeod climbing pretty high above Chinese camalots.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Feb 27, 2012 - 06:40pm PT
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OP makes the cams that break.
Duh.
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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Feb 27, 2012 - 09:19pm PT
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oh snap..
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kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
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May 12, 2012 - 11:36pm PT
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Anybody had one of them Chinese suckers fail?
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the kid
Trad climber
fayetteville, wv
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May 13, 2012 - 08:48am PT
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METOLIUS still makes their cams in the USA. still make their safe tech harnesses in USA...
USA USA USA USA USA...
ks
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0ri0n
Trad climber
El Portal
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Jul 26, 2012 - 02:50pm PT
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They seem to look a little cheaper now and the paint looks different. The master cams look much better for the smaller sizes, I will still use bd for the bigger sizes I think.
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Khoi
climber
Vancouver, BC
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Jul 27, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
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Cams are not painted; they are anodized.
I may be wrong, but I think the anodizing is done in the U.S., not in China.
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The Call Of K2 Lou
climber
Squamish
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Jul 27, 2012 - 02:43pm PT
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I wonder if France's equivalent of SuperTopo has discussions about Petzl making their harnesses and headlamps in Malaysia? Or their carabiners in the *shudder* USA?
The ubiquity of Black Diamond products (their cams in particular) and the fact that members of our community aren't dropping like flies because of failed cams suggests that we don't have much to worry about on that front. Black Diamond, or any other manufacturer, wouldn't last very long if they killed their customers (tobacco companies aside). I'm fairly certain that the number of accidents caused by lowering off the end of the rope (tie your damn knot, people! Always!) or a belayer staring at someone's t!ts instead of their partner is exponentially higher.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
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Sep 26, 2015 - 08:46pm PT
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Aug 2015 Update: Since this post was written, Black Diamond has moved all of their rock climbing hardware production back to the US. Bags, poles, headlamps, etc are still made overseas, but the entire climbing hardware process is back in Salt Lake City, Utah, even the anodizing.
That is interesting. tfpu
Having just had a good warranty experience with a BD headlamp, I'm wondering if it was cost driven or they couldn't keep quality going with warranty being located stateside and assembly overseas. Though I do have a pretty hinky BD locker I'm going to take back to rei. Too much lateral play in the gate keeps the gate open. Think I'll ask them if they want it direct to them to batch test or just take back to rei.
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