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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 14, 2011 - 01:11am PT
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The Munter hitch, as well as figure 8 rappelling devices, tend to introduce twists into each strand of the rope, as well as twist the two ropes. Rappel/belay tubes, and the carabiner brake, have the desirable effect of keeping the two strands separate, and don't create twists. Certainly worth knowing the Munter, but it's not a first choice.
Kevin mentioned that if you're first down on an untraveled rappel, and there are loose rocks or possible rope-jamming features, to do do what you can to ameliorate the risk. But make sure there's no one below before doing so, and don't forget that any rocks that get trundled could damage your ropes.
The canyoneering people seem to have a quite different take on anchors, perhaps in part because they're often in watercourses. But to judge from photos that friends who canyoneer have shown me, they often go to considerable effort to minimize any left behind gear.
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nick d
Trad climber
nm
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Nov 14, 2011 - 01:20am PT
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Canyoneers also seem to get killed fairly regularly descending. Some of that leave no trace ethic can go to far methinks. I'm a serious environmentalist, but I value my life too much to gamble it on a dubious anchor.
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apogee
climber
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Nov 14, 2011 - 01:23am PT
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Dulfersitz 'unsafe'?
Like most techniques, only 'unsafe' if used in the wrong place or done incorrectly. Properly used, it has its place.
Anybody remember the (very) old skool pants and jacket with reinforced crotch/shoulder to accommodate the Dulfersitz? Post a pic, if you got one.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Nov 14, 2011 - 10:20am PT
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The safety backups of knotted ends, and autoblock or prusik are hard to apply to the Dulfersitz, adding to it's danger. And since the only reason to use the Dufersitz is because you don't have your harness on, or have any other equipment, you would not be using any safety backups, like clipping the rope ends to your harness.
If the unsafe nature of the Dulfersitz had been emphasized perhaps Nick d would have gone to the trouble of setting up a proper rappel and avoided a near death accident:
Nick d - Nov 10, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
Besides being a wise ass I thought I might make an actual contribution.
Here is my rappeling story.
In 1978 I climbed the Kor-Ingalls on Castleton with my friend Tim Coats. At that time there wasn't much of an approach trail or anything and we wound up scrambling up the cone kind of on the Southwestern slopes. It wasn't easy getting through all the intermittent cliff bands and near the top we soloed up a couple that were tall enough to really scare me.
We finally made it to the climb, got up on top and entertained ourselves reading the summit register, checking out the famous names.
By the time we got back to the base it was pretty close to dark, short days I think it was December 29th. It was stormy and the sky was completely overcast. We went back down the way we came up, and we were able to do the two scary downclimbs before dark.
After that we lost our way in the dark. We had a couple of pretty crappy lights so we could only see our local area. We finally wound up getting cliffed out on something that looked about 30 feet tall. We walked it to the East until the slope on top got so steep and ball bearing that we were afraid we'd fall off, so we turned around and went West.
We were walking along and got to this point that gave us a view of the cliff ahead of us. What we could see of it looked the same, 30 feet that we couldn't downclimb. But on top just ahead we saw a big rock. We were elated since we could use it for a rappel anchor.
I grabbed a rope off the outside of my pack, quickly found the rough mid-point and threw it over the rock. I quickly got into a dulfersitz since my harness and all my gear was buried in the pack.
As I backed up to the edge it collapsed with me and I shot down the ropes far enough to burn holes in both my hands. Worse still, I was hanging in space not touching anything. Not being able to think about anything except the pain in my hands and getting off the rope I kept going. Bear in mind it is pitch black darkness.
I was going down the rope and wondering why I wasn't on the ground yet when one end of the rope passed through my lower hand. I immediately stopped and started screaming at Tim to help me out. I hung for a while but soon I got the realization I was going to fall off from the pain.
The reason the rock was there is that it was a drainage, and underneath it was one of those big, overhanging amphitheatres that erode in sandstone.
In desperation I hung from my upper hand and tried to tie a knot to make a loop I could sit in. Of course, I could not do this and wound up falling completely free of the rope.
As I fell I was waving my arms for balance trying to stay upright and out of the blue snagged the longer end of the rope. I held it as I fell and I could hear this high pitched wizzing noise as it pulled over the anchor. I'm sure it rode up and over the top of the anchor rock rather than pulling the whole rope, and all the rope wound up on the ground with me.
I fell perfectly, landing on my feet and collapsing onto my back. I had one of those Chouinard teardrop shape packs with the zipper top, and right in the top I had one of those rectangular Nalgene 2 liter bottles. It was empty but capped, and my head crushed it flat. I'm sure it saved my life.
After I hit I was kind of paralyzed for a while. I couldn't move at all nor make any noise. I could hear Tim screaming from above but it was a while before I could answer and allay his fear that I was dead. Apparently the noise when I hit was very impressive. I have no real idea how far I fell.
Since Tim wasn't coming down the same way he left to find a feasible passage. After a while I got it together enough to coil the rope and began half walking, half crawling back to the car.
Eventually I encountered Tim and we made it the rest of the way to the car.
I was never the same again. I badly damaged my back, I tore several of my ribs off my sternum and I broke my right pinky finger so badly I eventually had to have it surgically fused. I also got more than an inch shorter.
It was the first real climbing trip I had ever gone on and in surviving it I learned a lot. One thing I learned is what a bad idea falling off is. That knowledge guided the rest of my climbing career, even though I did all of my hardest and most dangerous climbs after this trip I have only taken a couple or three falls since. They were well protected and short.
Nick Danger
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1662153&tn=80
Nick d's situation also shows the need to know how to pass a knot on rappel. 2 ropes tied together would have reached the ground.
There's one advantage of the Dulfersitz, little hassle in passing a knot.
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John Butler
Social climber
SLC, Utah
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Nov 14, 2011 - 10:32am PT
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The Munter hitch, as well as figure 8 rappelling devices, tend to introduce twists into each strand of the rope, as well as twist the two ropes
I find the Munter useful to get a rope to relax when it works itself into a case of the twisties through normal use with an ATC.
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apogee
climber
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Nov 14, 2011 - 11:41am PT
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"I quickly got into a dulfersitz since my harness and all my gear was buried in the pack."
"As I backed up to the edge it collapsed with me and I shot down the ropes far enough to burn holes in both my hands. Worse still, I was hanging in space not touching anything. Not being able to think about anything except the pain in my hands and getting off the rope I kept going."
Feel free to point out something obvious I'm missing, but it's pretty hard to conclude much of anything about how the technique was employed & used in this description.
Look, I'm not saying the dulfersitz is the ultimate rap technique for all purposes, but it does have its place in the mountains, even (especially?) in today's equipment-dependent climbing culture.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 14, 2011 - 11:51am PT
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Apogee,
Don't you agree that the subject mistakenly employed the dufoussitz? I've
found it pretty damn hard to go shooting down anything in a dulfersitz unless
you're wearing teflon clotheing.
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apogee
climber
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Nov 14, 2011 - 11:59am PT
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^^^^
Sure sounds that way to me. Further, as described, the terrain sounded low angle ('ball-bearing' slope)- it's hard to 'shoot down' low-angle terrain with a dulfersitz unless it wasn't rigged/used properly.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Nov 14, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
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The body rappel doesn't work as well on overhanging terrain.
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cliffhanger
Trad climber
California
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Nov 14, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
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He didn't go shooting down because of improper rigging or use; but, because of the darkness, poor lights, he slipped up. It was divine providence that he didn't fall out of the dulfersitz right then.
The dulfersitz is very unforgiving of any slip ups. You're very tenuously attached to the rope. Some rotation and the rope can ride up and out of the crotch and you're airborne.
With any mechanical rappel setup he could have easily caught himself after the slip and rigged prusiks for ascending later.
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kev
climber
A pile of dirt.
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Nov 16, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
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keepin the thread alive
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Rattlesnake Arch
Social climber
Where we park it
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Nov 17, 2011 - 05:52am PT
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The body rappel doesn't work as well on overhanging terrain
especially ridin' the pig down the E Face of the Captain!
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le_bruce
climber
Oakland, CA
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Nov 17, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
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Posting up your own f-ups can help others to avoid same in the future (witness the 170 ft fall off of WC thread).
-I once rapped off of the chockstone at the beginning of the chimney on Midterm. It was gone before that season was through.
-Coming down Goodrich, Right one winter afternoon, me and my partner were a couple of raps from the ground. As we're standing on a tiny, sloping pedestal getting ready to rap again, an amazing winter light show ensues and we stop to soak it in and look around. This is on top of p3, just after the cool double cracks. After maybe 30 seconds we realize that he, who'd come down to the anchor after me, never clipped in. Had he leaned back...
+1 on staying scared.
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Keith Leaman
Trad climber
Seattle
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Nov 18, 2011 - 07:39pm PT
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It must have been in the late '60s or early '70s. Norbert Olberg asked Lee Harrell if he would do a promotional stunt for the Sport Chalet. This would entail rappelling off about a 20 story building in downtown Los Angeles. I think it was called One Wilshire, or the Wilshire Medical Building. Anyway, Lee called Paul Gleason and asked for a belay on the descent. Paul, in turn then asked me to belay him as he wanted to do the rappel too.
We were promised all the goldline that was used during the stunt -about 500'. A carabiner brake bar set up with a 1" tubular sit sling was pretty much the norm for rappelling at that time, still, amongst all the confusion of spectators, reporters and camera crews I was a bit apprehensive about the whole thing, especially using the tied off vent pipes as anchors. But then again, Lee had climbed on the Eiger with John Harlin, so he knows what he's doing, right?
Lee said a few words to the camera on the rooftop and exited over the edge.
Somehow, difficulties ensued on the rappel resulting in severe and bloody burns to Lee's hands. Paul's turn went more smoothly, but I felt for him, watching him spinning rapidly on his way down, the crowd applauding. Apparently they thought the spinning was part of the show.
I was impressed with Lee's composure, having to give a press interview immediately afterward with Norbert while in so much pain. We made the front page of the LA Times the next day, and got the ropes, though perlon was our preference thereafter. Just saying-rappelling is inherently dangerous, even for the seasoned veterans.
Just for fun, here's a photo of the morning before a first ascent in the Wind Rivers of that era....
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 19, 2011 - 01:42am PT
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Jim- You're a good man to take the time to write the OP!
Along with carrying several tied runners I would like to make a couple of other recommendations.
Not all trees are as they appear (particularly manzanita) so lift and tug on your prospect with gusto to see what is really going on. Manzanita are to be avoided and can be deadly because the trunks are brittle and the root systems usually shallow. They look stout but aren't.
You can hop in a sling and aggressively test a rap anchor just as you would a aid placement while you are still backed up.
Taking the time to advance the knot over the edge {assuming you have the excess rope to allow it} will often facilitate the pull on a long or stubborn rappel and will also avoid abrasion on the knot.
Learn to aim your rope tosses using dinnerplate-sized coils and when in doubt, high winds or hideous looseness girth hitch several of these tight coils individually and unclip and deploy them as you descend into a clearer situation.
Webbing is cheap so replace the worst runner at any station making sure to thread cleanly through the piton or bolt hanger eyes.
Excavate if necessary so that you can actually see fixed pitons and jerk test them with a wrist wrapped sling straight out while watching for any movement. In lieu of a hammer find a flat rock to reset the piton before inspecting and replacing the webbing. Put the worst webbing in the line of fire if you can.
Take the time to really examine the entire anchor every time then your own harness and rappel device. It only takes a minute to do so systematically.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Nov 20, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
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Vigilante bump...
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md307
climber
jackson, wy
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Nov 23, 2011 - 02:58pm PT
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Not sure if anyone reads this far into a thread but here is my 2cents,
I HATE RAPPELLING.
On every multie pitch climb I carry the following, a knife, 1 tiblock, 1 prussic and some extra webbing. This all fits on 1 locking biner.
If you are going to add brand new webbing to an anchor, do everyone a favor and cut all of the old crap off. Yes, all of it.
I also long ago replaced my chalk bag belt w/ a piece of webbing that uses 2 raprings for a belt buckle. I have probably used a half dozen of these belts now.
Personally I would much rather come home and see my kids than save $10 of gear but that’s just me.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Nov 23, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
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If you are going to add brand new webbing to an anchor, do everyone a favor and cut all of the old crap off. Yes, all of it. Please don't do this. Clear enough, starting with the oldest most faded, so that the rope runs free through the ring/biner/link or whatever is utilized. Leave the rest.
Rap rings are fine but be aware, they are generally rated for something near 300lbs so please don’t toprope on the things. Missing at least zero in there:-) The weakest commercial ones were the old skinny SMCs. They rated @ 3000 lbs new, but they were hollow and with wear, 300 may be a fact for an old one.LOL The new SMC's are much fatter and rate @7000 lbs. Fixe stainless rap rings are crazy strong, will minimally wear and rate at 12,500lbs when new.
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mongrel
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Nov 23, 2011 - 03:45pm PT
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Amazingly, after all these posts, there is still not a single one specifically highlighting the basic principle of actually weighting the rappel fully BEFORE unclipping from the anchor. Several rappel deaths in the last couple of years would have be averted by this. All the "double checking" and vigilance you can wish for is still not fail-safe, especially in the dark, snowstorm, whatever. Maybe a lot of the posters on this thread are taking this for granted, but an alarming number of new-to-outdoors climbers are not learning to do this, and some are dead because of it.
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