Rappelling- Be Vigilant!

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donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 10, 2011 - 11:40am PT

There has been a lot of discussion on ST about belay anchors but little concerning rap anchors. I wondered why, and then it came to me. Folks here put in a lot of their own belay anchors but they don't place many rap anchors because the places where they climb usually have fixed rap stations.
I still do quite a bit of exploratory climbing so I end up setting up a lot of my own raps- been doing it for years. Maybe that's why I am so much more obsessed with rap anchors than I am with belay anchors. Bottom line: good rap anchors are MUCH more critical to a lengthy career than are belay anchors. They also are usually more problematic in their construction often because of the circumstances that lead to rappelling. Addtionally, great care needs to be exercised even where there are existing rappel stations.
Trying to move discussion into a new area. Things to keep in mind:
* Rap anchors are always weighted and failure is always catastrophic.
* Climbers (this amazes me) tend to be overly frugal about leaving gear behind. I see climbers who obsess about belay anchors rappel from marginal anchors because they don't want to loose gear. How much is your life worth? 
* Seek out natural anchors first. Trees, rock horns and chockstones can provide safe, quick anchors. The same applies for belay anchors.
* Rappels are often set up under less than ideal conditions. Retreating because of a sudden storm is a common occurrence. Setting good anchors while dealing with cold, wet, windy conditions is no easy matter. There have been a number of times where I have had to deal with placing safe anchors in icy cracks while fighting hypothermia-inducing weather conditions. Be vigilant, be tough. Momentary discomfort is a small price to pay when your life is at stake.
* Care must always be exercised when rapping into unknown territory looking for the next anchors. Don't try to stretch the rappel too far.
* Think about retrieval of the ropes before you both rappel. Try pulling your ropes while one climber is still at the rap station. Make sure the last person has the knot in a good place. It is often best to pull the thinner rope (tag line). This may be more strenuous but the thicker rope is less likely to get hung up.
* Care should be exercised when throwing ropes in windy conditions. In extreme conditions letting the ropes out gradually from your pack while rapping, while time consuming, this may be your best option. Also, sometimes rapping with one rope may be best. 
* Always know where the ends of the rope are. I don't like knotting the ends when I know there is a ledge that can be safely reached. I do knot the ends when I'm not sure where the stance is. I only have prusiks on the ropes when I can't be sure that I can get a decent stance.
* Exercise care when doing diagonal rappels. Too much of an angle can result in a disastrous pendulum.

 *** Most importantly, always be confident that your rappel anchors, whether pre-existing or placed by you, are BOMBER. Rapping from less than ideal anchors in order to save a few bucks is a zero sum game. Experience will make you a better judge, err on the side of safety early on.

***  You may be tired, you may be cold but your mantra until you reach terra firma should be VIGILANCE! VIGILANCE! VIGILANCE!

Other ideas welcome!
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Nov 10, 2011 - 11:45am PT
Good post Jim!

You speak with much experience. Just happen to be taking a lunch break and read this. Hope everything is going well!
TrundleBum

Trad climber
Las Vegas
Nov 10, 2011 - 11:52am PT

Amen: The climb is not over till your back at the road/car or camp.

VIGILANCE! VIGILANCE! <- being the opposite of complacency

Definition of COMPLACENCY
1: self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by unawareness of actual dangers or deficiencies

2: an instance of usually unaware or uninformed self-satisfaction


Branscomb

Trad climber
Lander, WY
Nov 10, 2011 - 11:54am PT
Excellent review of the subject: everyone should take note.

When conditions are bad is the alert signal to pay extra close attention. So many people panic and are more apt to make mistakes in the set-up. There isn't much room for error in rappelling.

I personally like having a prusix loop to back up the brake, especially when I'm ice climbing, coming down on wet 8.2mm ropes. When those babies are wet and icy, it's hard to maintain speed control unless you wrap it around your thigh. Overcautious, I guess, but I tie a knot in the ends and use a prusix anytime I rappel.

Bump this a lot.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 11:55am PT
Bollards rool! Although prolly not so much these days since nobody
uses 1" webbing. A little scarier with that skinny shiz.
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 10, 2011 - 11:57am PT
I don't go for pledges.
wbw

Trad climber
'cross the great divide
Nov 10, 2011 - 11:59am PT
Great, helpful post and master class, Mr. Donini, sir.
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Nov 10, 2011 - 11:59am PT
Perhaps this thread just might save some poor suckers life. One never knows when something read previously, may pop into the consciousness when sorely needed.

That warning of extreme tension traversing while rappelling was a good one. I suspect Jim did that on some Alpine climb.
Lynne Leichtfuss

Trad climber
Will know soon
Nov 10, 2011 - 12:02pm PT
Thanks for a fantastic (really) Thread. Much help for us new ones....and reminders for the long time climber.

It does amaze me that people will literally climb with risk for fear of having to leave some gear behind. Thanks for pointing that out. Cheers, Lynne

PS, I am printing this off and taking it to work.
Mikemcee

Social climber
Mill Valley, CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 12:10pm PT
Hey Jim, although I am often amused by your salty mussings here, I think your contributions hold tremendous value. This and the Multi Pitch Muddles thread are 2 of the most informative threads on the Taco. Thanks.
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Nov 10, 2011 - 12:15pm PT
Jim,

I just posted this on a New England climbing forum, since I thought it was such a good thread. I have often shared your thoughts on this one.
ddriver

Trad climber
SLC, UT
Nov 10, 2011 - 12:21pm PT
- Carry at least a squeeze light in your pocket when you get off the deck in unknown terrain.

Unexpected rappel descent in the dark involving a free-hanging rappel in pitch darkness and ending with a fixed single line over an overhang with another free-hanging rappel off the end of the rope to a free-fall to the ground. Good stuff that would not have been possible without my squeeze light.
Gearhead

Trad climber
Novato Ca
Nov 10, 2011 - 12:22pm PT
I've climbed with alot of partners who are super vigalante about belay anchors and pro, but are careless when it comes to rappelling. I'm really anal about raps. I'm going to give Jims post to some of my friends.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Nov 10, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
Great thread, rapelling still scares the crap out of me. I had a near miss early in my climbing career when a group of 4 of us decided to climb a few pitches on the base of el-cap. I was the leader of the tribe, and assumed that some of the other climbers were more experienced enough to help the least experience set up to rap. I noticed the least experienced member looked really awkward rappelling, and I was terrified to see why when she got to the base of the climb. Instead of being clipped into the belay loop, she was clipped into a gear loop! I'm still haunted by that image 20 years later of what could have happened. So make sure that not only your anchors are double checked, double check your partners.

Also to re-iterate why rappelling is so dangerous, it is done when you are your most fatigued, sometimes due to an injury, sometimes due to being forced off due to bad weather, or not being up to a route, or running out of daylight. You're engaging in the potentially most dangerous activity a climber participates in, when you are the least physically and mentally armed.
phylp

Trad climber
Millbrae, CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 12:52pm PT
Amen to the idea of just leaving stuff behind if you need a safe rap anchor! Often, an inexpensive nut will be bomber. And I am surprised by how many climbers now climb with only sewn runners. It's nice to have a knotted runner or two in case that in situ sling is complete tat.

The Boston climber Dan Nguyen many years ago showed me a simple trick that is very useful when rapelling: clip a sling or quickdraw to your harness and to one of the rope strands, above the rappel device. Then when you get where-ever you're going, it's not just "pull red" it's "pull red on the left". This trick prevents the dreaded "the ropes are twisted and can't pull and don't know which way to twist to unwind".
climbski2

Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
Nov 10, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
Was somewhat mentioned in Donini's OP.

If rapping into unfamiliar ground or places not generally rapped I'm big on a single line rap for the first one down. With the proper gear needed to ascend if you pass a good anchor spot hoping to get a full length rap.

IE ahh... thats a nice tree to rap from but I'm only half-way to the end.. bet there's something good down there... oops nadda.. better go back up.

Or even worse and one I've definately run into.... damn that isn't going where I want at all.. better go back up and find a better place to rap from altogether.

kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Nov 10, 2011 - 01:07pm PT
* Think about retrieval of the ropes before you both rappel. Try pulling your ropes while one climber is still at the rap station. Make sure the last person has the knot in a good place.

You can add to this the old 'last rappeler moves the knot' trick! If there's an obvious constriction or possible knot catching spot the last person can rappel 'unevenly'. By this I mean they pull more on the knot side of the rope and move the knot down a little with each step. I've never tried this with ropes of the same diameter and don't think it would work well there, but if you've got two different diameters it's easy to pull on the thicker rope (knot must be on that side of the rappel) and move the knot. This is also useful to help minimize the kitty litter that the knot will travel through when pulling the rope.
corniss chopper

climber
breaking the speed of gravity
Nov 10, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
If yer pard ever suggests making a "giant snow bollard" to rap from be sure to use his rope and that its the last time you'll need it because chances are you will not be able to pull it due to the near infinite friction of such a large surface area.

A deadman might be the better solution made from the least expensive piece of gear you have. -stuff sack filled with snow buried deep..
sempervirens

climber
Nov 10, 2011 - 01:16pm PT
I had thought the thicker rope was more likely to get stuck. So I'd pull it rather than the thinner line. Why is the thinner line more likely to get stuck?

With the prussik while on rappel,... this is a dumb question but I'm not getting something, ... are we talking when rappeling a single line? If not, is the prussik around both lines?

Or one prusik on each line?
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2011 - 01:22pm PT
The thinner line is more pliant and has much more of a tendency to catch around flakes and in cracks, also more prone to be blown around by wind. I actually never have a prusik on the rope when rapping but might have one handy if I rap too far and need to get back up a bit. Good questions.
Trad

Trad climber
northern CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 01:31pm PT
I posted this in a 3rd Stone TR but here it is again. A short video of Aaron ripping some old rap webbing WITH HIS BARE HANDS!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3LuStU0AM
k-man

Gym climber
SCruz
Nov 10, 2011 - 01:48pm PT
Good stuff here.

I like DMT's pull-test method, never thought of that.


I once learned a "trick," the hard way. In windy conditions, set up your ropes so the line you pull is upwind at the anchor. This makes it so the loose end (as you pull the ropes) blows away from the line you're pulling. This trick keeps the two lines from wrapping (rapping?) around each other.
Guck

Trad climber
Santa Barbara, CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
A lot of climbers never think rap is an option and do not prepare for it. How many of us carry a rap ring and a junk sling for that eventuality? The ring is critical if you want to retrieve the rope!
Branscomb

Trad climber
Lander, WY
Nov 10, 2011 - 01:50pm PT
I tie the prusix around both lines (2 rope rappel)and clip it into a large locking biner in my harness. Have to pay attention to keep it sliding with you so doesn't cinch up.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Nov 10, 2011 - 01:53pm PT
I've gotten in the habbit of carrying a rap ring or two when on a route I'm unfamiliar with, and I always have at least one knotted sling. A knife really should be included in your gear to cut off old tat.

The rap ring thing was ingrained in my brain after topping out on a local ice climb. There was an existing rap ring, but multiple dumbazzes decided to use it to top rope from, so it was nearly worn in 1/2.

So yeah, a couple of rings and a couple 6-7' lenghths of black or brown 1" webbing are part of the rack.
ontheedgeandscaredtodeath

Trad climber
San Francisco, Ca
Nov 10, 2011 - 02:02pm PT
Another option is to rap with one rope, keeping the other as a spare. I've only done it a couple of times in dark and very windy conditions, but it's an option where a stuck rope is likely and would lead to a grim situation.

ddriver

Trad climber
SLC, UT
Nov 10, 2011 - 02:13pm PT
One thing I often see is climbers who don't know how to throw a rope on rappels. I was taught by the kracken to gather the rope in roughly two halves and throw the middle first. You then can throw the end in a more directed and controlled manner. Let the most experienced, i.e. faster, person rappel first to deal with cleaning the throw so the team moves faster as a whole. Repeat.

Adopt an assembly line philosophy for bigger teams or where you're lowering a bag on retreat, so that you develop a rhythm and each person gets progressively better at their specific tasks.
ME Climb

Trad climber
Behind the Orange Curtain
Nov 10, 2011 - 02:43pm PT
Great thoughts everyone....my biggest "Oh shit!" moment was while rapping.....Now I triple check everything!

Eric
neversummer

Trad climber
30 mins. from suicide USA
Nov 10, 2011 - 02:52pm PT
K-man that is good advice.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 10, 2011 - 02:54pm PT
A small folding knife is always a useful thing to have when climbing. One can be handy for cleaning up old slings, cutting sewn slings (if needed), and also while actually on rappel, for example to cut things that get stuck in your rappel gadget, or even a jammed prusik.

Other things to keep in mind:
 Know how to do a carabiner brake rappel, and have enough equipment to do one if needed. (Modern tiny and wire gate carabiners don't work well.)
 Know how to do a body rappel, in an extremity.
 Communications can be a real problem.
 Make sure your rappel gadget matches the diameter of your ropes.
 Think about falling rocks, as lots of stuff gets dislodged while rappelling, both by the humans, and the rope. Wear a helmet!
 Many rappel routes follow natural lines of weakness, and so may be more exposed to weathering, rockfall, etc.
crunch

Social climber
CO
Nov 10, 2011 - 03:04pm PT
Hey, Jim,

That's a great summing up of rappel safety.

Thanks!
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 10, 2011 - 03:09pm PT
Jim, you caught all my rapp cautions except one (which you did imply).
TAKE your TIME!
which includes.
Get it right each time.
Communicate with your partner at EACH rapp. Make a plan and review it for each pitch. This only takes 30 seconds.
When the dookie is hitting the fan SLOW down even more. Be as sure as possible what you're doing before you do it.

Tossing one half of the rope first is an old trick taught to me by my Father: WWII Royal Navy destroyer officer. That's the ONLY way they did it. Done right you release the second coil just as the slack is gone so the lead end keeps going. Of course it assumes both coils are neat.

Test pulling the rapp. I'm surprised so many don't do it. My mentors taught me this first thing and I've used it ever since. Ditto for pulling the knot over constrictions/restrictions before the last rapper weights it.

I refused to rap rope to nylon sling last trip out, made them leave a biner.
Two sides to this one Jeff.
From the safety point of view, the rope through a good sling is fine to rappel on. It's pulling the rope that screws up the sling, but not the rope. I carry a rapp ring and am willing to leave a biner. It's OK in extremis to just use the sling. Retrieving the rope can also be more difficult due to the friction.

On multipitch, I always carry a sling tied with a knot in case I need it for a rapp anchor.

I use an Autoblock as a backup below my rapp device when I need it. Make sure the fixed end is short enough that the knot can't get into the brake. This is one special purpose tool I carry on my harness: a pre-tied loop for a Autoblock of the correct length.
An excellent reference on the use of auto block, prusik, Klemheist here:
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/ProtectingAnAbseil.htm
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/prusik.htm#Autoblock

EDIT: lowering directly off a sling with no 'biner, ring, etc, is of course attempted suicide.
healyje

Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
Nov 10, 2011 - 03:50pm PT
Once had to do a forced rap down the face of Mt. Wilson with Scary Larry and Texplorer. We were lucky to have our shoe laces by the time we got down and all the anchors were single slung shrubberies. Not a good time...
WallMan

Trad climber
Denver, CO
Nov 10, 2011 - 05:02pm PT
Great post, Jim. Thanks for sharing your wisdom!

Wally
OldEric

Trad climber
Westboro, MA
Nov 10, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
Italic TextRapping from less than ideal anchors in order to save a few bucks is a zero sum game.Italic Text

I don't think this means exactly what you think it does. It does sound pretty hip though - certainly more then the tired old chestnut -Italic Text How much is your life worth?Italic Text

Mostly sound advice if a bit simplistic and not exactly earth shattering.
nutjob

Gym climber
Berkeley, CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
I'm going to be a posterboy for Jim to rant about....

When dealing with questionable rap anchors, sometimes I have a more expensive backup piece with some slack, then let the first person rap with that backup, and if it looks good I clear the backup piece and rap.

These are definitely the worst moments of climbing for me, coming down with unhappy thoughts and hoping it stays in place. If there is anything about my climbing habits I'd like to change, it would be to rap first in these situations! Or just be less cheap and build a better anchor for both ;)

I usually try to bring extra 9/16" bulk webbing and cut-to-length as needed for trees/etc. during the descent.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 10, 2011 - 05:31pm PT
A lot of climbers never think rap is an option and do not prepare for it. How many of us carry a rap ring and a junk sling for that eventuality? The ring is critical if you want to retrieve the rope!

I'm not real big on carrying "the ten essentials", whatever they may be, but the two I do carry are a knife and a rap ring. I've always made sure my chalkbag is the kind with the little zippered key pocket, and a tiny knife and one or two aluminum rap rings live there. I don't have to think about it, they're just always there.

Saved my ass once, and have been handy more than once.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2011 - 05:34pm PT
I have done a lot of raps with a backup piece that gets removed for the last person after the anchor seems to check out. Unfortunately, I am usually the lightest and therefore the last to go. It's always a bit nerve racking.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 10, 2011 - 05:42pm PT
An added tweak in that situation is that the rappeler(s) at the next station should wherever possible not just get the next station ready for the next rappel, but tie the rope(s) off to it. That way, if the rappeler pulls the upper station, she/he may go 80 or 100 m, but may live when the rope eventually catches. In other words, don't thread the rope for the next rappel, tie it off. Obviously also in the others' interests, as assuming that their anchor is sound, they at least keep the rope(s).

A variation, if there's time and the rock allows, is for the first rappeler to place intermediate anchors, and clip one of the rappel ropes to them. Again, pretty marginal, and if the last rappeler's main anchor fails, would probably create a fustercluck. But it might just work.

I've had to do both, and have 1% of donini's experience, if that.

Speaking of slings, it's surprising how many "white" slings you cut off of anchors, which turn out to be coloured inside.
le_bruce

climber
Oakland, CA
Nov 10, 2011 - 05:48pm PT
* Climbers (this amazes me) tend to be overly frugal about leaving gear behind. I see climbers who obsess about belay anchors rappel from marginal anchors because they don't want to loose gear. How much is your life worth?

Guilty as charged, but never again.

One simple and crucial act of vigilance: always inspect every part of fixed slings or ropes before you trust them, especially the parts you can't see at first glance.

Never let yourself go into auto mode when clipping a fixed anchor - inspect inspect inspect, including bolts - whether on After Six of an 07 on the obscurity scale. Complacency in this is common, I've been guilty of it far too much.

Check the span of webbing on the back side of the tree, or rotate webbing through fixed pins/bolts to see wear.

I couldn't believe the condition of the fixed pendulum on the Robbins traverse up on RNWF this summer. The main sling holding the fixed rope had completely blown, a la the vid upstream of the guy ripping bleached webbing with his hands, and the rope was held only by the water knot that had marginally caught in the rapid-link.

yosemite 5.9

climber
santa cruz
Nov 10, 2011 - 05:52pm PT
If you are with someone less experienced you can put their rap device on the rope(s) above your device. Then when you rap off, you know he/she can't screw it up when they follow after you are down. This is the way the YMS guides do it. When you are down on the ground, you can also hold the ropes to be prepared to pull them tight to stop an out of control rap, at least that's the idea. I haven't actually tried this stop. It might be best to knot the ends of both ropes when using two ropes even when they touch the ground, in case for some bizarre reason (say you lost your grip on the small rope) one rope starts zinging through the device. If one rope goes through the device, the other rope will not hold you.
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Nov 10, 2011 - 05:56pm PT
Know how to work more friction into the system. Unusual situations can occur where you have much less friction than you're used to. Like rapping on a single, new shiny slick, thinner rope. Or you're cold and your freezing hands just can't grip the rope as usual. Or you've dropped your usual rap device. Or you've lost your main rope and you're rapping on a single 7mm.

When on rappel and surprised by low friction wrap the rope around body or the thigh. Wrapping the rope around my thigh saved my bacon once.

If you anticipate problems before starting, set up additional braking by putting another device on a sling above your usual device, perhaps a 6 carabiner brake or a carabiner wrap. Or just looping the rope thru carabiner(s) clipped to your harness could do it.

Off topic - Here's something I just tried: Out of chalk? Wood ashes work fairly well.
micronut

Trad climber
Nov 10, 2011 - 06:00pm PT
I love the tales of Jim and Greg Crouch bailing off stuff deep into the nightime and teeth of a storm in the book Enduring Patagonia. I think of them every time I bail off something.

Thanks for the inspiration to stay safe Jim.
Charlie D.

Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
Nov 10, 2011 - 06:02pm PT
Here's my 2 cents:

Listen to your gut and don't let a cheap or anxious partner turn your lights out. Speak out, let that bird on your shoulder be heard even if you're climbing with a more talented climber. Cheap and impatient climbers come in all ability levels.

BTW Jim D., I totally concur with your earlier piece on tips. Much wisdom here, just wish more of the younger crowd had the fortitude to read this stuff.
Ghost

climber
A long way from where I started
Nov 10, 2011 - 06:04pm PT
One simple and crucial act of vigilance: always inspect every part of fixed slings or ropes before you trust them, especially the parts you can't see at first glance.

+1 on that. And if the anchor happens to have rope or slings going around a tree, don't just look at the other side of the tree, but actually pull the slings away from the tree and check the side that was next to the wood. I once did that and found that what looked like an unblemished anchor was actually completly chewed up on the inside.

And a further comment on Jim's suggestion about putting the ropes in your pack on a windy day and letting them feed out as you go -- if you don't have a pack, just lap coil each rope and hang it in a sling on either side of your harness. It'll feed as you go, although you do have to pay attention.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Nov 10, 2011 - 06:06pm PT
I have done a lot of raps with a backup piece that gets removed for the last person after the anchor seems to check out. Unfortunately, I am usually the lightest and therefore the last to go. It's always a bit nerve racking.

Yup - it sucks when youre the lightest one.

I'm always amazed by how few people have no tied off slings on their rack.
I tend to bring 2 short and 1 long tied off 9/16 slings. This way I can replace the tat on old bolts or sling a block to rap off of in an emergency.

Although I've used leaver beaners before in general I'll rap off a sling - it's not the rapping that trashes the sling but the pulling of the rope.

There's also a neat trick where if your less than 1/3 rope out you can rap off a bolt with a sling and leave NO trace. I won't detail it but it's cool.

EDIT

and I always have a little belay knife with my nut tool for tat removal.
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Nov 10, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
I'm craving some clarification on the 'pull test':

From what I've read in this thread, it sounds like the first one down

for a single rope rap
pulls on one side of the rope to ensure it moves freely

How much pulling is needed? One or two feet?



or if it's a two rope rap
the first one down pulls on the side where the knot will be free


Again how much pulling? Just a foot or two?




Once the movement stops the last one down takes this as their cue to:

1: reorient / recenter the rap lines

2: begin their rap



Is that it? If not please clarify / correct




thanks!



---edit

Thanks DMT for the excellent description of the pull test
and other essential details in your reply to my questions
below
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 10, 2011 - 06:40pm PT
I also like an autoblock below the rappel device for the first person down. That's where your hand is anyway. The autoblock can act a lot like a glove protecting your hand, and can provide more friction if needed. It's nice to know you are still securely connected to the rope when you setup the next anchor or if you need to untangle the rope below you.

Following climber(s) typically get a fireman's.
mctwisted

Social climber
slacker city
Nov 10, 2011 - 07:04pm PT
this is a great thread! this is the anchor that i found at the top of pitch one of english breakfast today. looks like more than one party has rappeled on this 7mm cord around a big flake, notice the sharp (scary) edges on the sides. also here is a shot (hopefully not to dark)that shows the old previous anchor, which was a knot of rope that got stuck when someone was pulling there ropes long ago, it was cut and left, and subsequent parties left one sling, then another till there was maybe a dozen slings around it with a couple biners thrown on, and you could'nt see what was behind the slings

alexey was up at arch on a trip a couple years ago and asked me what was it that was behind all those slings anyway that made up that pitch one anchor? since i was thinking about repairing the top of pitch two anyway i decided to cut out all the slings and clean that anchor up if i could, sure was a shocker when i saw it was just a stuck knot in there, turns out it is probably safer than this cord around the flake though.
BASE104

climber
An Oil Field
Nov 10, 2011 - 07:05pm PT
That original post should be pasted into an intro climbing book.

Sometimes necessity forces you to break some of those rules. Kinda sucks, fer sure.

murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Nov 10, 2011 - 07:05pm PT
Real glad for all these tips.

I've read about quite a number of accidents that would have been prevented simply by fixing the rope(s) at the anchor for all but the last climber. Then even if they miss a strand in their device, lose control of a strand while rapping, or go off the end of a strand that's for whatever reason shorter than the other, they're not necessarily dead.
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Nov 10, 2011 - 07:14pm PT
Climber Death on Wake Peak, Alaska

Climber’s fall reinforces safety issues
By Matias Saari
Staff Writer
Published April 27, 2007


A simple knot would have prevented a 38-year-old Seattle woman from rappelling off the end of her rope and falling to her death Monday on a technical mountain in Denali National Park and Preserve, her Fairbanks climbing partner said Thursday.

Jed Kallen-Brown, 23, was above his partner and out of her sight on Mount Wake when he heard her scream, followed by the sound of a person falling. Kallen-Brown, who arrived back in Fairbanks Wednesday night, has two theories about what happened.

“I think the most likely scenario is she was looking for gear, didn’t realize how close to the end of the rope she was, and it just slipped through her hand,” said Kallen-Brown, who met the woman more than a year ago and had climbed with her in California’s Yosemite Park.

“The other possible scenario is that she knew she was close to the end of the rope, intended to only let a small amount of rope through, and due to the slippery belay rope combination, more rope than intended went through the device, and she went off the end of the rope that way,” Kallen-Brown said.

The woman, a climber of 15 years who had been in the Alaska Range before, was rappelling on a single strand and was setting protective devices for Kallen-Brown in order to belay him down to her. A safety knot at the end of the rope would have prevented her 1,300-foot fall, Kallen-Brown said.

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=367153&msg=369538#msg369538

The slippery, thin, single strand, and cold conditions meant she had far less friction in the system than she was probably use to.

--------


Use a sling instead of a belt to hold up your pants so you have that much more to build anchors with.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Nov 10, 2011 - 07:32pm PT
Here's what can happen when you fail to follow Jim's advice:

http://www.supertopo.com/tr/A-Walk-with-McCarthy-in-the-Winds/t223n.html

Sorry for the repost for those of you who read this item years ago.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 10, 2011 - 07:34pm PT
Dan Mc - you removed all that junk on EB Crack. Thanks! What is left? Does the next party need to take extra slings, or?
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Nov 10, 2011 - 07:43pm PT
Scariest rap - a multipitch simul rappel down the Colorado NE Ridge of the Kingfisher...in the dark. We'd topped out at sunset, which was certainly scenic enough, but left us with the prospect of rapping the Seattle Space Needle - 800 feet up, and about 8 feet from the wall.

I was using a 6-'biner rap, as usual until this episode, on a single strand, and was getting majorly rope burn thru my leather gloves. Kevin and I were daisied together, but if I'd lost my brake hand...

ATC ever since, but, rereading Robbin's Rockcraft, was ashamed to have forgotten about adding another 6 biners for a double friction rap.

After a good swing into the stance, a dicey tension to the next one down.

Closest Call - Burk, Carter, and I were caught by a summer storm way up on the Mouth, GPA, and we were all spaced out at various levels on the route. Now, rain can turn 3rd Class friction into 5.10 - so what if you're on 5.10 to begin with?

I was at sort of a midway ledgelet, the others above, the rope trailing past to a lower stance. Everyone holling back and forth, rock running with water, I caught myself just in time, as I was about to unclip from the anchors...before clipping into the rappel device.

On another misadventure, someone's bright idea of a diagonal from Hoppy's Favorite over to the Grack hung up the ropes. Fortunately (for me), I wasn't the one who had to essentially free solo up with a jammed rope as the only pro.

Best tip from Mr. Donini I'd never thought of was the Test Pull. 'Cause it does happen. I've no jones with rapping off of slings, though - I ALWAYS carry knotted 1" slings (at least 1 double-length) and a belay knife, and I always add a new sling. Sean's like, "that's my favorite sling!" Fine, fine, here's fifty cents, buy a new one. Seems like a ring is just another link which could fail.

But I dig coming up on bleached out rap slings - means we're the first in a while.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Nov 10, 2011 - 07:54pm PT
I can't believe I forgot to mention this!

AFTER THE LAST RAP, NEVER REMOVE YOUR HARNESS UNTIL YOU'VE PULLED THE ROPE.
DO NOT TEMPT THE ROPE GODS!
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 10, 2011 - 07:56pm PT
If you use a 2x2x2 carabiner brake, you can increase the friction by making it a 2x2x3 brake - the rope runs over three carabiners. IIRC, I once used a 2x2x4 system. 2x2x3 is possible with regular ovals, anyway.

Maybe people don't often now carry enough oval carabiners to do this, but perhaps the larger non-wire gate modified Ds would work. I've used at least some kinds to do a carabiner brake.
Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 10, 2011 - 08:17pm PT
So has anyone here actually had the experience of
rapping - inadvertently of course - into their backup knot?
A stomach-churning experience for sure that would be.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 10, 2011 - 08:23pm PT
Umm, that would bring up another sensitive issue. A backup knot may not prevent the rope from slipping through your rappel device, or brake. There was at least one well known rappelling fatality in the late 1960s as a result. If a "deadman's stop" seems needed, use a prusik/autoblock (below your device), tie the ends of both ropes together into a single snug knot that's above the rope ends, or tie a loop in the end(s) of the rope(s), and clip something solid to it/them. A #10 hex used to be thought about right for the purpose.
mctwisted

Social climber
slacker city
Nov 10, 2011 - 08:31pm PT
mighty hiker
going back up to arch and eb in a few days, i'm still contemplating what to do with that anchor, but ill leave it safe (after seeing what people are rapping off)
survival

Big Wall climber
A Token of My Extreme
Nov 10, 2011 - 08:46pm PT
Rap off whatever you can get.


Of course I'm funnin' Jim.

But when I posted a general safety pledge, he was a bit of a dick....

Take that Jimbo. Your safety subject is more important than mine?

Can you tell me why this is more important or relevant than the thread I posted Jim? I'm serious.
Read my OP again Jim. Why is your rap thread more important?

http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/915508/THE-SAFETY-PLEDGE-THREAD-2009
martygarrison

Trad climber
Washington DC
Nov 10, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
Great,great post. I was always so careful with rapping except...when it came to leaving gear. I was able to be cheap and live but one memory is etched in my mind as just plain dumb. I was up on Aman cragging the lower pitches. I led the boulder pitch and was with a noobie who wanted to aid the enduro. Cool for me, I could run laps on a tr. Life is good. My partner, got to right before the crux and all hell broke loose. All these swallows started bolting out of the crack, he got scared and wanted to come down. I was like come on man just aid through it, but alas I lowered him. I went up on tr with the rack figuring I had to lead it again, only to get the same bird treatment. No way was I going to fall into that lieback with these swallows dive bombing me. I decided to lower off. Here is were the stupidity comes in. I had a booty find of a no name #3 wired cam. Really I mean no name, and had found it somewhere, maybe at the base of a climb or something. I set it along with another of my own friends and got ready to lower. At the last moment, I got cheap and pulled out the backup. I lowered off that solo booty #3, hanging is space for about 60 feet. If it pulled I was dead.

I did other dumb things climbing, but most of them were because I didn't know any better. This one was just stupid.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Nov 10, 2011 - 08:51pm PT
I think some of us are just anti authority and anti social enough that the mention of a pledge makes us bristle. Then again others of us just might take a pledge as a mindless act, and realize that one has to keep their mind actively engaged at each moment to stay safe. Hence a pledge can be percieved as putting the brain in neutral and assuming the pledge will keep you safe.

No offense survival, we each have our own approach and hey, if the pledge saves some folks, more power to it.
mctwisted

Social climber
slacker city
Nov 10, 2011 - 09:07pm PT
cragman
i heard that that the caver was almost cut in two by the time he reached the base, then there was the italian guy on the west side of el cap that went fixing with his buddies, when they asked him if he knew how to passed the fixed knot on the rappels he said he was good to go, ended up at the knot change hanging by one hand to a figure 8 (rap devise) until he pumped out then went the distance, leaving the 8 still on the rope at the knot a few hundred feet up
then there was the guy off the top of the nose that went off the end of the rope (while taking pics i think)the full distance to the base
no wonder i never liked rappeling much
Jay Wood

Trad climber
Land of God-less fools
Nov 10, 2011 - 09:36pm PT
Don't let the noob pull the rope!

I carry an assortment of leaver-nuts,

Headlamp!

If you hadn't got all nasty about daisy chains, you could've stayed clipped in with one while testing the rap set-up.
sandstone conglomerate

climber
sharon conglomerate central
Nov 10, 2011 - 09:44pm PT
A former climbing buddy of mine's wife, who I had gone to high school with but hadn't known well until meeting up years later, was killed at Table Rock in 2006 in a rappelling accident..Apparently, she had never clipped in to the ATC before she began her descent and fell 120', without a sound. No one even knew what happened until after the fact, it was over that quick.
Bobert

Trad climber
boulder, Colorado
Nov 10, 2011 - 09:58pm PT
Good discussion. I think the times I have been most in danger were setting raps when storms (lightning) were approaching. I know at least once I rappelled on extremely questionable anchors in a panic. Nowadays I always tell people to not get in a rush. The chances of getting hit by lightning are much less (remote) than the chance you will die (for certain) if your anchor fails. If something bad is going to happen make sure you don't do it to yourself.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 10, 2011 - 11:24pm PT
Great feedback, just what I was hoping for. Comments about slowing down and being careful even with seemingly cascading events are especially relevant. It's certainly the case that getting hit by lightning is less of a problem than being too hasty in setting the anchors and doing the things necessary for the right outcome.
matlinb

Trad climber
Albuquerque
Nov 10, 2011 - 11:36pm PT
"Replace the buckled belt that comes with your chalk bag with a knotted sling." <- I do this. I also keep a razor blade wrapped in electrical tape in my chalk bag to use as a backup knife.
johnboy

Trad climber
Can't get here from there
Nov 11, 2011 - 01:44am PT
I'm totally anal about rap anchors, mine or others I run into. It's pretty obvious that you are at the mercy of this point of connection, don't skimp on it.

I always carry two runners tied from 1 inch webbing. Besides some of the already mentioned uses, another is to use a piece of it to slide the rope through for protecting the rope from sharp edges if needed. There's always a rap ring with me too along with a small loop of 5mm cord for an autoblock. Carry a headlamp with you too, they're worth their weight in gold when needed.

Good subject with good ideas and reminders, thanks all.
surfstar

climber
Santa Barbara, CA
Nov 11, 2011 - 01:49am PT
I don't think its been said enough - weight your rap device and do another system check before disconnecting from the anchor.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Nov 11, 2011 - 01:55am PT
The razor blade trick sounds like a good way to save weight. After you slice off one of your fingers that's got to save at least a couple of ounces, not to mention once you really get the blood loss going good!
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Nov 11, 2011 - 02:18am PT
Besides being a wise ass I thought I might make an actual contribution.
Here is my rappeling story.

In 1978 I climbed the Kor-Ingalls on Castleton with my friend Tim Coats. At that time there wasn't much of an approach trail or anything and we wound up scrambling up the cone kind of on the Southwestern slopes. It wasn't easy getting through all the intermittent cliff bands and near the top we soloed up a couple that were tall enough to really scare me.

We finally made it to the climb, got up on top and entertained ourselves reading the summit register, checking out the famous names.

By the time we got back to the base it was pretty close to dark, short days I think it was December 29th. It was stormy and the sky was completely overcast. We went back down the way we came up, and we were able to do the two scary downclimbs before dark.

After that we lost our way in the dark. We had a couple of pretty crappy lights so we could only see our local area. We finally wound up getting cliffed out on something that looked about 30 feet tall. We walked it to the East until the slope on top got so steep and ball bearing that we were afraid we'd fall off, so we turned around and went West.

We were walking along and got to this point that gave us a view of the cliff ahead of us. What we could see of it looked the same, 30 feet that we couldn't downclimb. But on top just ahead we saw a big rock. We were elated since we could use it for a rappel anchor.

I grabbed a rope off the outside of my pack, quickly found the rough mid-point and threw it over the rock. I quickly got into a dulfersitz since my harness and all my gear was buried in the pack.

As I backed up to the edge it collapsed with me and I shot down the ropes far enough to burn holes in both my hands. Worse still, I was hanging in space not touching anything. Not being able to think about anything except the pain in my hands and getting off the rope I kept going. Bear in mind it is pitch black darkness.

I was going down the rope and wondering why I wasn't on the ground yet when one end of the rope passed through my lower hand. I immediately stopped and started screaming at Tim to help me out. I hung for a while but soon I got the realization I was going to fall off from the pain.

The reason the rock was there is that it was a drainage, and underneath it was one of those big, overhanging amphitheatres that erode in sandstone.

In desperation I hung from my upper hand and tried to tie a knot to make a loop I could sit in. Of course, I could not do this and wound up falling completely free of the rope.

As I fell I was waving my arms for balance trying to stay upright and out of the blue snagged the longer end of the rope. I held it as I fell and I could hear this high pitched wizzing noise as it pulled over the anchor. I'm sure it rode up and over the top of the anchor rock rather than pulling the whole rope, and all the rope wound up on the ground with me.

I fell perfectly, landing on my feet and collapsing onto my back. I had one of those Chouinard teardrop shape packs with the zipper top, and right in the top I had one of those rectangular Nalgene 2 liter bottles. It was empty but capped, and my head crushed it flat. I'm sure it saved my life.

After I hit I was kind of paralyzed for a while. I couldn't move at all nor make any noise. I could hear Tim screaming from above but it was a while before I could answer and allay his fear that I was dead. Apparently the noise when I hit was very impressive. I have no real idea how far I fell.

Since Tim wasn't coming down the same way he left to find a feasible passage. After a while I got it together enough to coil the rope and began half walking, half crawling back to the car.

Eventually I encountered Tim and we made it the rest of the way to the car.
I was never the same again. I badly damaged my back, I tore several of my ribs off my sternum and I broke my right pinky finger so badly I eventually had to have it surgically fused. I also got more than an inch shorter.

It was the first real climbing trip I had ever gone on and in surviving it I learned a lot. One thing I learned is what a bad idea falling off is. That knowledge guided the rest of my climbing career, even though I did all of my hardest and most dangerous climbs after this trip I have only taken a couple or three falls since. They were well protected and short.

Nick Danger
jedster

Trad climber
Bishop, CA
Nov 11, 2011 - 03:22am PT
More tips:
In a party of 3, in that scenario where you are "testing" a primary rap anchor while it is backed up to a slack piece, might's well send down two folks first. At the same time, one on each strand, counter-balanced against each other. Doubles the load on the primary anchor, testing it more fully. Each of the first two rappellers can then tend a single rope and speed up the whole process. When you're the third in this scenario you can confidently pull out the slack back-up.

Knots in the end or no? Plenty to debate. Not gonna list all the pros and cons, but I can eliminate one of the cons. When doing multiple raps, the rope often whips from the prior pull way down the cliff, laying itself ready to go for the next pitch. No one wants to pull all that rope up in order to tie a knot. Tying a knot in the other end is easy, you should or could have done it as you threaded it. And, if you "pre-rig" the second and/or third rappellers as mentioned (above, credited to YMS guides. Little to no "cost" of doing this, even with partners of equal and enough experience) only that one knot in the end is necessary. Prerigged atc's near the anchor effectively "fix" the knotted strand. You copy?
philo

Trad climber
Somewhere halfway over the rainbow
Nov 11, 2011 - 03:34am PT
Great thread, great advice. The sad part is that it is so necessary a thread. It used to be more common that new climbers were introduced to the learning curve by a mentor through whom they would learn these crucial smarts.

I am amazed at the number of very experienced partners with whom I climb who do not routinely pull test and do not use the pull test as a signal for "I am down and secure."

No hollering into the wind if at all possible. The next person doesn't come down till the pull test occurs.
I am right with Dingus here. I can't remember when the last time I didn't do a pull test was. It is so obviously the clearest way to communicate that you are secure and the rope is ready. Understandable in wind, white outs and waves of other yellers in crowded areas.

My pull tests involve pulling the rope back and forth a few feet and a few times which unmistakable..
Just not as robustly if the rap is through just slings though.

Thanks Jim this is of real service.
steveA

Trad climber
bedford,massachusetts
Nov 11, 2011 - 07:22am PT
Speaking of rapping--anybody ever get jolted by lightning, while rappelling?

John Bouchard and I both got a good jolt while descending Devils Tower, BITD.

We never saw the approaching storm, heading in from the opposite side. Glad I didn't let go of the rope, as I'm sure we didn't tie knots in the end.
AP

Trad climber
Calgary
Nov 11, 2011 - 11:14am PT
Canadian ice climber's December mantra:
"Please God let us do the last rappels back to the packs before it gets TOTALLY dark"
Raps on iced up 8.5 mm ropes can be pretty zippy so be careful.
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
Great discussions of how to avoid making mistakes "that only a beginner would make," since we all still have plenty of time left to screw up - and one mistake with this phase of the climb will be your last. Our bro' on the Kor-Ingalls not only used up many of his 9 lives, but those of most of the folks here. I can't even imagine doing a free Dulfersitz!

Here's my question -

No Big Wall experience to speak of, except maybe some Grade V day climbs, aid. A problem I've encountered when rapping off slightly overhanging terrain from a hanging stance (down Pale Fire on Moses, specifically) -

How to unclip from the anchors and start your descent?

See, assuming a true hanging belay station, nothing for the feet at all - remember, the wall is ever so slightly overhanging above and below - your full body weight is on the anchors. With the slack inherent in the rap lines, I just couldn't seem to manage the weight transfer onto the rap device (even with a few leg wraps)enough to completely unweight from the anchors. Seemed like another arm or two would be handy, so to speak.

I wasn't paying attention to my partner, who'd gone down first...probably because I lost visual after he dropped over the rim. I'd probably still be up there if I hadn't carried along a pair etrier, which afforded me enough foot support to unweight from the anchors, transfer body weight to the lines, unclip from the anchors, and proceed on my merry way.

Russell once told me about a "Muntner Mule" for this type situation, but didn't go into much detail about this technique.

Tips, experiences, anyone?
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:09pm PT
A very worthwhile discussion---thanks, Jim! Rappelling is arguably one of the most dangerous things climbers do, and the number of accidents to experienced climbers drives home the point that familiarity can be a risk.

Although I agree with all the remarks about not being stampeded in bad conditions, I think that the number of accidents that happen in benign conditions suggest that rappelling has gotten way too routine for many of us. We do it so much that it now requires a forced mental effort to attend to the risks.

I catch myself sliding down without a care in the world, enjoying the view, watching the turkey vultures riding the updrafts, maybe conversing with climbers on a nearby route, and really not paying the appropriate amount of attention.

So I've taken a personal vow to stop at the start of the rap before unclipping from the anchors and then every thirty feet or so for just a second or two and really look around at where the ropes are going and where I'm headed. A moment to refocus on the realities of the situation---coming to a full stop seems to help.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:14pm PT
she had never clipped in to the ATC before she began her descent and fell 120'
I've mentioned this story before and will again.
I also very nearly did this at Whitehorse. After I'd been climbing for about 15 years. In nice weather. Not even particularly tired. Not in a hurry. Being too casual.
I'd have gone about 300 feet to talus.
Always DOUBLE check before you unclip your anchor and step back!!!

rgold and I double posted. His remarks fit my situation exactly
I think that the number of accidents that happen in benign conditions suggest that rappelling has gotten way too routine for many of us.
Footloose

Trad climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:20pm PT
Often, I'll offer a fireman's belay, too.
snowhazed

Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:30pm PT
I watched a party rap off south crack in TM and my friend and I got excited to go claim their booty. When we asked them what happened they said they just didn't want to do the rest of the climb (it was noon on a perfect day). We asked what they rapped off of... the old piton and nothing else. Really?!

-An extra biner for friction on a hanging single line rap can be nice. Or the grooved side of the guide atc.

Archie Richardson

Trad climber
Grand Junction, CO
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:40pm PT
It is often best to pull the thinner rope (tag line). This may be more strenuous but the thicker rope is less likely to get hung up.

Agreed - the key word here is often. If the thin rope is a static rope it may better to pull the thicker rope.

I learned this firsthand at Red Rocks when rappeling with a lead rope and an 8mm static line. When the lead rope got stuck out of reach on a chickenhead, I was left with a skinny static line in my hands to lead back up with. Not good.

Great thread to remind us of our own dangerous mistakes.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 11, 2011 - 12:54pm PT
rather like George Carlin's Ten Commandments, rappelling can be boiled down to 2
I: Be Friggen Careful, Every Time
II: Think It Through
OK, maybe that's just 1.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KiCEJoX9kE
NSFW
nopantsben

climber
Nov 11, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
uh, Jim, I remember some rap anchors I would not call "bomber" on the Evolution Traverse! ;) Haha - still we were very vigilant.

Those were good times. Great thread!

Cheers

Ben Lepesant
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Nov 11, 2011 - 02:28pm PT
War, the middle of my rope was not abraded. When I said I located the "rough" midpoint of the rope I meant approximate, not the exact middle. Sorry for the confusion.
hooblie

climber
from where the anecdotes roam
Nov 11, 2011 - 05:12pm PT
maybe no one rappels with a simple munter hitch on a big locking biner these days, but i can report that the rope moving through the knot is capable of untwisting the locking sleeve and flipping open the gate, completely disengaging. what resulted might be called "condition batman"
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 11, 2011 - 05:24pm PT
Someone upthread mentioned rappelling with a static line. Do climbers other than wall climbers often have a static rope as their second one? Wouldn't it create problems with differential stretch between the two ropes, which might saw any sling they're through? Also, given skinny 'lead' ropes these days, a 7 mm static second line isn't much lighter than say an 8.2 or 8.5 (second) lead rope, and the latter has the advantage that it can be used for climbing, if needed.
mctwisted

Social climber
slacker city
Nov 11, 2011 - 05:52pm PT
mighty hiker
this has been a serious problem with unequal sized ropes "walking" and causing serious consequences, the knot can accidently travel through rap rings so that you end up on the 7 mm with the main rope as the secondary, then it wants to travel faster through the rap devise (and with no rings would saw through slings very quickly. we lost a fairly experianced climber this way while he was taking pics of his friends over in the serenity area not so long ago, very tragic (i think the knot went through the rap rings and then the smaller rope traveled through at the rappel devise)
if you take a piece of 1" tubular or supertape sling material (as a test) and then put a piece of rope through it and start sawing it back and forth, it is quite alarming how quickly it will melt through, ive done this a few times for my young climber buddies and they are always very wide eyed when they see it
the Fet

climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
Nov 11, 2011 - 06:31pm PT
I got one of these Trangos as a gift only 19 grams:


When clipped into a biner it can't open. I have a rescue/first aid kit: biner, 4 prusik slings, small role of tape, and the knife. I can ascend a rope or rescue a partner, sling a tree, tape up a cut or edge, etc.
murcy

Gym climber
sanfrancisco
Nov 11, 2011 - 08:49pm PT
Folding sewing scissors are fine if you're not field-dressing a moose but only cutting some nylon:


They're teensie.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 11, 2011 - 08:53pm PT
Something that is also suitable for minor first aid makes sense.
Swami Jr.

Trad climber
Bath, NY
Nov 11, 2011 - 08:55pm PT
thanks Doniniasaurus. I'll always listen to ya.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Nov 12, 2011 - 01:01am PT
I used a big sharp machine!



Hey, we're a matching pair! We must be related, in some strange way.
Rick A

climber
Boulder, Colorado
Nov 12, 2011 - 10:14am PT
Thanks for the reminder, Jim.

Rappelling scares me every time I do it. It is sobering to think how many seasoned (i.e. old) climbers have met their end in rappelling accidents.

Rick
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Nov 12, 2011 - 11:39am PT
i don't care what the consigliero says. if you slip that prussik on as a habit EVERY time you rappel, you won't have to be half as vigilant.
cmclean

Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
Nov 12, 2011 - 01:01pm PT
Great thread. One idea I find important is to check my rappel setup in the exact same way every time. Having a repeatable checklist has been shown to reduce accidents (Atul Gawande's "The Checklist Manifesto" is a good book about the subject).

I also use a klemheist backup below my device on every rappel. On raps where I am the second to go, I attach the klemheist before or while the first person is rapping. Not only does that make the additional time required to use the backup negligible, but it also provides a potential safety mechanism against catastrophe if the first person raps off one end of the rope.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Nov 12, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
Tony, I don't want to start one of those endless arguments about prussik backups, but

1. A prussik backup won't save you if the anchors or slings are bad.

2. A prussik backup won't keep you from going off the end of the rope.

3. A prussik backup won't stop you in general unless you release it, which in practical terms means you have to be at least momentarily unconscious. Getting jolted by lightning or hit by falling objects would be good examples.

4. In below-the-device setups, the distance from the knot to the rap device is critical. When this distance isn't big enough, a high step can unexpectedly release a prussik backup.

My point in terms of this discussion is that a number of the vigilances Jim and others address have to do with things the prussik doesn't protect against. So slapping on a prussik and halving your vigilance level might be a prescription for just the kinds of things the thread warns about. So by all means use a backup if you wish, but don't let it make you any more complacent then you would have been without it.

By the way, I always wonder what the party is going to do with an unconscious rappeller hanging half-way down the rap lines held by that backup. This potential means, at least to me, that for everyone but the first person down, a "fireman's belay" from below is a much more sensible way to back up the rappel.
Fritz

Trad climber
Choss Creek, ID
Nov 12, 2011 - 01:56pm PT
Donini! Thanks for sharing your wisdom, and thanks to all for posting thoughts that I agree with, or find interesting.

My thoughts on 41 years of rappels.

I hardly ever "enjoy" a rappel and see them as a “necessary evil.”
The concept of Simul-raps, especially on a dubious anchor, nearly makes me ill with fear. I finally was witness to a “simul-rap” off Morning Glory Spire (aka The Incisor) at City Of Rocks this summer.
I can’t imagine wanting to do that to an anchor.

Please understand: I never really trust rappel anchors.


OK! Two helpful comments.

1. When rapping off rock horns in wet conditions ---sling, or rope “creep” can result in --disaster!

I vaguely remember an article in the defunct climbing mag. “OFF BELAY” about accidents from wet rappel slings “creeping” off wet rock horns, when weighted. The rain acted as a lubricant, with disastrous results.

A friend had a rappel anchor fail due to “sling creep” on a horn during a thunderstorm retreat. He fell 20 or so feet, until (luckily) the rappel rope jammed in a flake. He hit the next ledge down just hard enough to severely sprain an ankle. Then, the party had to re-unite and extract the jammed rope while the storm raged. Since they only had the one rope, the save was with belts, shoelaces, and a few spare slings. After extracting the jammed rope, he got to finish the retreat, in the storm, with the severely sprained ankle.

2. The other item of interest is: even on a double bolt chain rappel, a rope can still “hang” from sometimes bizarre circumstances.

In 2010 Donini, Crazy Tom & I hung a rappel rope up at the double chain anchor for Scream Cheese at City of Rocks. Three of us could not pull it free.

After Tom led Swiss Cheese to free it, he took this photo of the jammed Bluewater rope.

rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Nov 12, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
Fritz, it looks to me as if that rope was threaded incorrectly to begin with, in which case the tape would just have been the final straw.

In extreme circumstances when the rope gets stuck and can't be pulled, there is a temptation to prussik on it. This pictures provides memorable evidence for just how bad an idea that can be.
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Nov 12, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 12, 2011 - 03:58pm PT
Good words on rappelling, certainly one of the more dangerous things we do. It is strange what we'll rap off of, and memorable.

The 2010 Accidents in North American Mountaineering (ANAM) lists 350 accidents with "immediate cause" being "Rappel Failure/Error" from 1951 to 2009, nearly 60 years, with an average being 6 such accidents a year. It is the 8th ranked "immediate cause" just after "Avalanche" which is rather strange since climbers have almost complete control over the rappel, while avalanches tend to have a large aspect of uncertainty not under the control of climbers.

Part of a good safety program is describing "lessons learned" regarding accidents and reading them! so go out and get that ANAM and you'll learn things you don't actually have to experience, and kudos for those willing to report their accidents too. There are four rappelling accidents described in the 2010 ANAM.

One thing I tell all my partners is that we depend on each other for our safety, if you don't understand something that you see in an anchor, ask about it. It doesn't matter how long I've been climbing or they've been climbing, take the time to get it right, double check, have you partner check, talk through what's going to happen, etc... as Jim said in the OP, there is no room for failure.

This has been a topic elsewhere on STForum before, but it is always a good thread whenever it appears.
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Nov 12, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
Diagnostic on the photo above:

The rope appears to be running through 2 chain links!

Neither of which shows too much diameter. The lowermost chain link is not even the diameter of a ring!

So, what did you think would happen? If you think the hangup was due to the tape at rope's end - back to your gym!

...if I don't hear any beta about the Muntner Mule, I'll have to assume no one here knows wtf I am talking about. In which case, you are all subject to a new thread.

..or, of course, you're always welcome to figure it out for yerself in the field.

Going back to study the photo, it looks like the rope has been threaded to create sort of an autoblock, causing the rope to become jammed between two chain links, of different lengths pulled tightly together.

For example, had the rope been fed through the left hand link, then the right- from above, and not from below, the RH link, it probably would not have pulled the 2 bottom links together in such a manner to pinch the rope.

Or, we might have thought of threading the cord in the opposite direction, counterclockwise, first through the shorter RH link, continuing left through the LH link.

Instead, it looks like the rope was fed right to left through the upper link; the rope pull doubled the right link onto the left to form a zee through the upper link, pulling the 2 chain links together to pinch the rope between the 2 bottom links.

So, I guess my 2nd op-ed is that the rope appears to have been threaded incorrectly; a classic "pilot's error."

BTW, the reason I always rig to pull on my 8mm pull cord is because I'd much prefer the thicker 10.5mm line to be the one which takes the doubled bend through the rap slings, rings, bells, whatever.
clockclimb

Trad climber
Orem, Utah
Nov 12, 2011 - 06:54pm PT
Others have mentioned checking where the sling goes behind a rock for worn edges. In addition to wear I have seen many slings nearly chewn all the way through by rodents usually on the back side out of sight.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 12, 2011 - 06:57pm PT
As you're climbing the route, be scoping out the rapp route. Where are the rap stations? How are the anchors at those stations? Where could there be trouble with overhangs, water/ice, loose blocks? If the rapp route doesn't follow the climbing route where DOES it go? Talk about it at the belay changes.
pvalchev

Social climber
Mountain View, CA / Calgary, AB
Nov 12, 2011 - 07:46pm PT
Nice thread, could save a life. A couple of more things I don't see mentioned:

 When you arrive at the next station don't forget to clip in!! Even if there's a large ledge to stand on... though people have forgotten to do so while standing on teeny footholds/stances..

 Especially when using an overhand to join 2 ropes of same diameter, it's recommended to leave a long tail (if the knot rolls)... but make sure when you grab the ropes to put in your belay device, you are not grabbing the tail! Usually the ropes are weighed so this is very unlikely (tails are not weighted), but almost happened to me once.

 When rappelling on ice off an existing v-thread, double and triple check it, preferably build your own. But on some climbs in Canada there are sometimes huge nests of v-threads so people clip existing one(s) which is fine. Make sure you are not rappelling off the tail of a cord that has frozen into the ice - someone died on Selenium falls in Banff that way a few years ago (tail was frozen in / mistaken for the v-thread and pulled out on rappel)

 Speaking of ice, consider just threading the climbing rope through the hole instead of special cord... if the ice is dry and there's no chance it'll freeze inside. One less point of failure and a nicer pull (less friction), bonus it doesn't pollute the environment (hiking up a drainage in the summer reveals lots of old cord on the springs..). Of course, a screw backs up the v-thread for the first person, second pulls it out (as previously discussed)
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Nov 12, 2011 - 11:20pm PT
I know two cases of an anchor that had been tested with a non-load-bearing backup subsequently failing for the last person after the backup had been removed.

In both cases, the anchor in question held when loaded from below but failed when a direct outward pull was applied. In both cases, the last person moved up to remove the backup and then pulled straight out on the anchor as they moved back down.

Another thing perhaps worth worrying about when using this technique. In brief, try not to load the anchor in a way different from the test loads.
neebee

Social climber
calif/texas
Nov 13, 2011 - 12:43am PT
hey there say,donini... a post of life...

thanks for sharing.... though i don't climb i sure apreciate all this worth...

say, i liked seeing this part, highly so:

Be vigilant, be tough. Momentary discomfort is a small price to pay when your life is at stake


happy climbing, as these "lessons stay alive" in hearts, for all...
:)
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Nov 13, 2011 - 10:28am PT
More attention should be paid to knowing alternatives to your primary rap device, as dropping rap devices is pretty common .
Know how to make a carabiner brake, munter, and other alternatives.

And be afraid, be very afraid. It will save your life.
Tony Bird

climber
Northridge, CA
Nov 13, 2011 - 11:21am PT
rgold, you are starting an endless argument. i agree, prussik backups are worthless against lightning strikes, rabid chuckwallas and anchors which dissolve. what they do give is a measure of mental comfort for the rest of what we're up against. your life does not constantly depend on what your brake hand is doing. i'm suggesting that if you make that a permanent habit it will free up some RAM, so to speak, and take some strain off that vigilance the OP is calling for. it's the sort of thing that pays off and you never realize it.

i put the prussik on a sling to my belay loop and slide it with my nonbraking hand well above and independent of the rap device. i let it grab at the least provocation, then usually leg up and take in the slack with the rappel device to release it. if you're hanging in space, there are ways of dealing with that too. such a rig could save you from rapelling off an unknotted end, especially if you're in the habit of letting it grab when you sense mister trouble. of course, you could pull a complete darwin and slide the prussik on off as well.
drljefe

climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
Nov 13, 2011 - 11:59am PT
Stich, I agree about the pita, just listing it as an option.
I don't think many newer climbers know what to do if they drop their atc.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 13, 2011 - 12:42pm PT
knowing options is important... remembering them correctly is more important...

here is one that can help out:

Dulfersitz... not something you're likely to do regularly, but if you don't have a belay device or anything else, you can still descend the ropes safely.
http://www.traditionalmountaineering.org/FAQ_Dulfersitz.htm

Illustration by Mike Clelland From Climbing Ice, Duane Raleigh, 1995
George R

climber
The Gray Area
Nov 13, 2011 - 01:03pm PT
I don't find the biner brake to be a pita at all. It was my standard rap method for a number of years and I still occasionally use it. No more of a pita than modern tube type gadgets.

G
jaaan

Trad climber
Chamonix, France
Nov 13, 2011 - 01:12pm PT
Going back to that photo of the rope jammed in the chain link. If it was really threaded in the manner that the result suggests, then it was only really threaded through one chain, as it passed twice through the left one. Of course in reality, if either of the anchors had failed, it would still have held. Maybe though it was threaded through both in a normal fashion, and it was the whiplash that jammed the end into the left link? Either way, the best thing to do when you unwrap your new rope is to pull all the tape off the ends...
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 13, 2011 - 01:22pm PT
Does anyone have experience with a carabiner brake rappel with wiregate 'biners?

I always carry a few ovals because I don't trust the wiregates for a brake. Classic 'D' biners work fine and safely but are clumsy to setup.
I too am concerned about a Munter unlocking a gate and haven't used it for rappel.

I generally don't use an autoblock, which I rig below my brake to my leg loop. This keeps it out of the rapp brake.
I don't hesitate to use it if I expect anything out of the ordinary. Rapping in the dark. Unknown rapp route. Bad weather. Fatigue. Overhangs.
Know how to wrap your thigh to temporarily free your hands.

If there's any chance of rapping off the ends I knot the ends. I like the "stop knot". As if you're tying a grapevine (aka double fisherman's bend) but without the second rope.

Excellent animated knots page
http://www.animatedknots.com/alpinebutterfly/index.php?Categ=climbing&LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com

Earlier in this thread I posted an excellent reference comparing the DIS-advantages of the Prusik, Autoblock, Bachmann and Klemheist.
Here it is again:
http://www.chockstone.org/TechTips/ProtectingAnAbseil.htm
Note that in these tests, the Autoblock was the most reliable.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 13, 2011 - 01:36pm PT
learned the 'biner brake from the '72 Chouinard catalog:

http://www.climbaz.com/chouinard72/ch_page44.html

there is a lot of improvement on this system since that sketch was made... e.g. two 'biners to connect to your harness, opposing gates, two 'biner brake...


but the prussik backup was state-of-the-art then... and probably the most unused part of this system...
KabalaArch

Trad climber
Starlite, California
Nov 13, 2011 - 01:55pm PT
- the Muntner Mule rig I mentioned was not intended for use as the primary rap device, but as a means to briefly hoist your full body weight a few inches above the anchors, just for enough time to clip into your rap device.
Rapping from overhanging sling belays is another proposition compared to rapping off a slab, or a vertical wall with a foothold at the stance.

OT-we always used a fisherman's bight, or a pair of figure 8's, to tie the two rap lines together. Mostly 'cause we were scared about the stability of the knots.

But Urmas demonstrated a neat knot to serve the same purpose - a simple overhand. See, no matter how the rope twists en rappell tout en suite, or when retrieving, the knot and its tails will always flip up and away from the stone. Minimizing potential hangups when the lines are pulled down.
jaaan

Trad climber
Chamonix, France
Nov 13, 2011 - 03:01pm PT
The Munter hitch, as well as figure 8 rappelling devices, tend to introduce twists into each strand of the rope, as well as twist the two ropes.

Ignoring the fact that the photo above shows the rope running next to the screw gate (in fact in Stich's photo it would tend to tighten it, not unscrew it), holding the control end of the rope down by your side in a regular rappelling position does two things.

1) It ensures that the rope will twist and of course this is worse if using two ropes to rap with.

2) It reduces the amount of friction that a Münter hitch can apply.

The way to correct both of these things is to hold the control end of the rope up parallel with the rope going up to the belay. This is done by putting your left hand (say) around both ropes above the biner and feeding slack up to it with your right. This congiguration will not twist the rope and will also work with double ropes. Holding the ropes in this manner is so effective that you can stop simply by squeezing the ropes together with the control hand. It would certainly be my first choice...
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Nov 13, 2011 - 03:05pm PT
The Munter Hitch seems like it puts alot of extra wear on the rope.

The Dulfersitz is not only painful, it is unsafe.

Even if you have just 1 biner, the carabiner wrap is much superior to the Dulfersitz.



http://storrick.cnc.net/VerticalDevicesPage/Rappel/Carabiner.html

Clipping the ends of the rap ropes to the harness is a sure way to avoid the ends getting jammed somewhere and you can't rap off the end.
Texplorer

Trad climber
Sacramento
Nov 13, 2011 - 07:15pm PT
One of my favorite rappel anchors set up after a Redrock FA. Now I hear someone placed bolted anchors instead.

Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 14, 2011 - 01:11am PT
The Munter hitch, as well as figure 8 rappelling devices, tend to introduce twists into each strand of the rope, as well as twist the two ropes. Rappel/belay tubes, and the carabiner brake, have the desirable effect of keeping the two strands separate, and don't create twists. Certainly worth knowing the Munter, but it's not a first choice.

Kevin mentioned that if you're first down on an untraveled rappel, and there are loose rocks or possible rope-jamming features, to do do what you can to ameliorate the risk. But make sure there's no one below before doing so, and don't forget that any rocks that get trundled could damage your ropes.

The canyoneering people seem to have a quite different take on anchors, perhaps in part because they're often in watercourses. But to judge from photos that friends who canyoneer have shown me, they often go to considerable effort to minimize any left behind gear.
nick d

Trad climber
nm
Nov 14, 2011 - 01:20am PT
Canyoneers also seem to get killed fairly regularly descending. Some of that leave no trace ethic can go to far methinks. I'm a serious environmentalist, but I value my life too much to gamble it on a dubious anchor.
apogee

climber
Nov 14, 2011 - 01:23am PT
Dulfersitz 'unsafe'?

Like most techniques, only 'unsafe' if used in the wrong place or done incorrectly. Properly used, it has its place.

Anybody remember the (very) old skool pants and jacket with reinforced crotch/shoulder to accommodate the Dulfersitz? Post a pic, if you got one.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Nov 14, 2011 - 02:52am PT
Holubar NP-22 Parka with rappel patch:

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1562234&tn=1
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Nov 14, 2011 - 10:20am PT
The safety backups of knotted ends, and autoblock or prusik are hard to apply to the Dulfersitz, adding to it's danger. And since the only reason to use the Dufersitz is because you don't have your harness on, or have any other equipment, you would not be using any safety backups, like clipping the rope ends to your harness.

If the unsafe nature of the Dulfersitz had been emphasized perhaps Nick d would have gone to the trouble of setting up a proper rappel and avoided a near death accident:

Nick d - Nov 10, 2011 - 11:18pm PT
Besides being a wise ass I thought I might make an actual contribution.
Here is my rappeling story.

In 1978 I climbed the Kor-Ingalls on Castleton with my friend Tim Coats. At that time there wasn't much of an approach trail or anything and we wound up scrambling up the cone kind of on the Southwestern slopes. It wasn't easy getting through all the intermittent cliff bands and near the top we soloed up a couple that were tall enough to really scare me.

We finally made it to the climb, got up on top and entertained ourselves reading the summit register, checking out the famous names.

By the time we got back to the base it was pretty close to dark, short days I think it was December 29th. It was stormy and the sky was completely overcast. We went back down the way we came up, and we were able to do the two scary downclimbs before dark.

After that we lost our way in the dark. We had a couple of pretty crappy lights so we could only see our local area. We finally wound up getting cliffed out on something that looked about 30 feet tall. We walked it to the East until the slope on top got so steep and ball bearing that we were afraid we'd fall off, so we turned around and went West.

We were walking along and got to this point that gave us a view of the cliff ahead of us. What we could see of it looked the same, 30 feet that we couldn't downclimb. But on top just ahead we saw a big rock. We were elated since we could use it for a rappel anchor.

I grabbed a rope off the outside of my pack, quickly found the rough mid-point and threw it over the rock. I quickly got into a dulfersitz since my harness and all my gear was buried in the pack.

As I backed up to the edge it collapsed with me and I shot down the ropes far enough to burn holes in both my hands. Worse still, I was hanging in space not touching anything. Not being able to think about anything except the pain in my hands and getting off the rope I kept going. Bear in mind it is pitch black darkness.

I was going down the rope and wondering why I wasn't on the ground yet when one end of the rope passed through my lower hand. I immediately stopped and started screaming at Tim to help me out. I hung for a while but soon I got the realization I was going to fall off from the pain.

The reason the rock was there is that it was a drainage, and underneath it was one of those big, overhanging amphitheatres that erode in sandstone.

In desperation I hung from my upper hand and tried to tie a knot to make a loop I could sit in. Of course, I could not do this and wound up falling completely free of the rope.

As I fell I was waving my arms for balance trying to stay upright and out of the blue snagged the longer end of the rope. I held it as I fell and I could hear this high pitched wizzing noise as it pulled over the anchor. I'm sure it rode up and over the top of the anchor rock rather than pulling the whole rope, and all the rope wound up on the ground with me.

I fell perfectly, landing on my feet and collapsing onto my back. I had one of those Chouinard teardrop shape packs with the zipper top, and right in the top I had one of those rectangular Nalgene 2 liter bottles. It was empty but capped, and my head crushed it flat. I'm sure it saved my life.

After I hit I was kind of paralyzed for a while. I couldn't move at all nor make any noise. I could hear Tim screaming from above but it was a while before I could answer and allay his fear that I was dead. Apparently the noise when I hit was very impressive. I have no real idea how far I fell.

Since Tim wasn't coming down the same way he left to find a feasible passage. After a while I got it together enough to coil the rope and began half walking, half crawling back to the car.

Eventually I encountered Tim and we made it the rest of the way to the car.
I was never the same again. I badly damaged my back, I tore several of my ribs off my sternum and I broke my right pinky finger so badly I eventually had to have it surgically fused. I also got more than an inch shorter.

It was the first real climbing trip I had ever gone on and in surviving it I learned a lot. One thing I learned is what a bad idea falling off is. That knowledge guided the rest of my climbing career, even though I did all of my hardest and most dangerous climbs after this trip I have only taken a couple or three falls since. They were well protected and short.

Nick Danger

http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1662153&tn=80

Nick d's situation also shows the need to know how to pass a knot on rappel. 2 ropes tied together would have reached the ground.

There's one advantage of the Dulfersitz, little hassle in passing a knot.





John Butler

Social climber
SLC, Utah
Nov 14, 2011 - 10:32am PT
The Munter hitch, as well as figure 8 rappelling devices, tend to introduce twists into each strand of the rope, as well as twist the two ropes

I find the Munter useful to get a rope to relax when it works itself into a case of the twisties through normal use with an ATC.
apogee

climber
Nov 14, 2011 - 11:41am PT
"I quickly got into a dulfersitz since my harness and all my gear was buried in the pack."

"As I backed up to the edge it collapsed with me and I shot down the ropes far enough to burn holes in both my hands. Worse still, I was hanging in space not touching anything. Not being able to think about anything except the pain in my hands and getting off the rope I kept going."

Feel free to point out something obvious I'm missing, but it's pretty hard to conclude much of anything about how the technique was employed & used in this description.

Look, I'm not saying the dulfersitz is the ultimate rap technique for all purposes, but it does have its place in the mountains, even (especially?) in today's equipment-dependent climbing culture.
Reilly

Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
Nov 14, 2011 - 11:51am PT
Apogee,
Don't you agree that the subject mistakenly employed the dufoussitz? I've
found it pretty damn hard to go shooting down anything in a dulfersitz unless
you're wearing teflon clotheing.
apogee

climber
Nov 14, 2011 - 11:59am PT
^^^^
Sure sounds that way to me. Further, as described, the terrain sounded low angle ('ball-bearing' slope)- it's hard to 'shoot down' low-angle terrain with a dulfersitz unless it wasn't rigged/used properly.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 14, 2011 - 12:04pm PT
The body rappel doesn't work as well on overhanging terrain.
cliffhanger

Trad climber
California
Nov 14, 2011 - 03:41pm PT
He didn't go shooting down because of improper rigging or use; but, because of the darkness, poor lights, he slipped up. It was divine providence that he didn't fall out of the dulfersitz right then.

The dulfersitz is very unforgiving of any slip ups. You're very tenuously attached to the rope. Some rotation and the rope can ride up and out of the crotch and you're airborne.

With any mechanical rappel setup he could have easily caught himself after the slip and rigged prusiks for ascending later.
kev

climber
A pile of dirt.
Nov 16, 2011 - 03:35pm PT
keepin the thread alive
Rattlesnake Arch

Social climber
Where we park it
Nov 17, 2011 - 05:52am PT
The body rappel doesn't work as well on overhanging terrain

especially ridin' the pig down the E Face of the Captain!
le_bruce

climber
Oakland, CA
Nov 17, 2011 - 01:25pm PT
Posting up your own f-ups can help others to avoid same in the future (witness the 170 ft fall off of WC thread).

-I once rapped off of the chockstone at the beginning of the chimney on Midterm. It was gone before that season was through.

-Coming down Goodrich, Right one winter afternoon, me and my partner were a couple of raps from the ground. As we're standing on a tiny, sloping pedestal getting ready to rap again, an amazing winter light show ensues and we stop to soak it in and look around. This is on top of p3, just after the cool double cracks. After maybe 30 seconds we realize that he, who'd come down to the anchor after me, never clipped in. Had he leaned back...

+1 on staying scared.
Keith Leaman

Trad climber
Seattle
Nov 18, 2011 - 07:39pm PT
It must have been in the late '60s or early '70s. Norbert Olberg asked Lee Harrell if he would do a promotional stunt for the Sport Chalet. This would entail rappelling off about a 20 story building in downtown Los Angeles. I think it was called One Wilshire, or the Wilshire Medical Building. Anyway, Lee called Paul Gleason and asked for a belay on the descent. Paul, in turn then asked me to belay him as he wanted to do the rappel too.

We were promised all the goldline that was used during the stunt -about 500'. A carabiner brake bar set up with a 1" tubular sit sling was pretty much the norm for rappelling at that time, still, amongst all the confusion of spectators, reporters and camera crews I was a bit apprehensive about the whole thing, especially using the tied off vent pipes as anchors. But then again, Lee had climbed on the Eiger with John Harlin, so he knows what he's doing, right?

Lee said a few words to the camera on the rooftop and exited over the edge.
Somehow, difficulties ensued on the rappel resulting in severe and bloody burns to Lee's hands. Paul's turn went more smoothly, but I felt for him, watching him spinning rapidly on his way down, the crowd applauding. Apparently they thought the spinning was part of the show.

I was impressed with Lee's composure, having to give a press interview immediately afterward with Norbert while in so much pain. We made the front page of the LA Times the next day, and got the ropes, though perlon was our preference thereafter. Just saying-rappelling is inherently dangerous, even for the seasoned veterans.

Just for fun, here's a photo of the morning before a first ascent in the Wind Rivers of that era....

Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 19, 2011 - 01:42am PT
Jim- You're a good man to take the time to write the OP!

Along with carrying several tied runners I would like to make a couple of other recommendations.

Not all trees are as they appear (particularly manzanita) so lift and tug on your prospect with gusto to see what is really going on. Manzanita are to be avoided and can be deadly because the trunks are brittle and the root systems usually shallow. They look stout but aren't.

You can hop in a sling and aggressively test a rap anchor just as you would a aid placement while you are still backed up.

Taking the time to advance the knot over the edge {assuming you have the excess rope to allow it} will often facilitate the pull on a long or stubborn rappel and will also avoid abrasion on the knot.

Learn to aim your rope tosses using dinnerplate-sized coils and when in doubt, high winds or hideous looseness girth hitch several of these tight coils individually and unclip and deploy them as you descend into a clearer situation.

Webbing is cheap so replace the worst runner at any station making sure to thread cleanly through the piton or bolt hanger eyes.

Excavate if necessary so that you can actually see fixed pitons and jerk test them with a wrist wrapped sling straight out while watching for any movement. In lieu of a hammer find a flat rock to reset the piton before inspecting and replacing the webbing. Put the worst webbing in the line of fire if you can.

Take the time to really examine the entire anchor every time then your own harness and rappel device. It only takes a minute to do so systematically.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Nov 20, 2011 - 07:42pm PT
Vigilante bump...
md307

climber
jackson, wy
Nov 23, 2011 - 02:58pm PT
Not sure if anyone reads this far into a thread but here is my 2cents,
I HATE RAPPELLING.
On every multie pitch climb I carry the following, a knife, 1 tiblock, 1 prussic and some extra webbing. This all fits on 1 locking biner.
If you are going to add brand new webbing to an anchor, do everyone a favor and cut all of the old crap off. Yes, all of it.
I also long ago replaced my chalk bag belt w/ a piece of webbing that uses 2 raprings for a belt buckle. I have probably used a half dozen of these belts now.


Personally I would much rather come home and see my kids than save $10 of gear but that’s just me.
couchmaster

climber
pdx
Nov 23, 2011 - 03:12pm PT
If you are going to add brand new webbing to an anchor, do everyone a favor and cut all of the old crap off. Yes, all of it.
Please don't do this. Clear enough, starting with the oldest most faded, so that the rope runs free through the ring/biner/link or whatever is utilized. Leave the rest.



Rap rings are fine but be aware, they are generally rated for something near 300lbs so please don’t toprope on the things.
Missing at least zero in there:-) The weakest commercial ones were the old skinny SMCs. They rated @ 3000 lbs new, but they were hollow and with wear, 300 may be a fact for an old one.LOL The new SMC's are much fatter and rate @7000 lbs. Fixe stainless rap rings are crazy strong, will minimally wear and rate at 12,500lbs when new.
mongrel

Trad climber
Truckee, CA
Nov 23, 2011 - 03:45pm PT
Amazingly, after all these posts, there is still not a single one specifically highlighting the basic principle of actually weighting the rappel fully BEFORE unclipping from the anchor. Several rappel deaths in the last couple of years would have be averted by this. All the "double checking" and vigilance you can wish for is still not fail-safe, especially in the dark, snowstorm, whatever. Maybe a lot of the posters on this thread are taking this for granted, but an alarming number of new-to-outdoors climbers are not learning to do this, and some are dead because of it.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 23, 2011 - 04:13pm PT
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.php?topic_id=1662153&msg=1663082#msg1663082

An elsewhere in the thread, IIRC. Speaking of which, should the heavier climber(s), including gear etc, be the ones to go first? Does 10 or even 20 kg really make a difference, in context of the forces involved?
choo.choo

Trad climber
New York
Nov 23, 2011 - 04:14pm PT
Here's my near-death f-up with rapping about 20 yrs ago. My partner, Wes & I had just topped off the Nose at the end of a 3 day adventure at the end of May. That day we had to follow, then struggle through a single party of seven climbers (who were on day 6), so we were frustrated by that experience, tired from a full day's climbing and also out of food and water.

We wanted to be down on the valley floor before sun set in about two hours -- especially since Wes' girlfriend had a gourmet picnic waiting for us down by the Merced river. So I got the haul bag and Wes got the rack & rope and we packed it down to the standard rap off point.

I went down the rope first with the haul bag on my back. Well I had never rapped with just a heavy weight on my back (and with my center of gravity much higher and behind me). It probably weighed 50 lbs to my 130 lbs. The rope went through my Figure 8 REALLY fast.

At one point I had to go over a bulge and got flipped nearly upside down. I grabbed the brake hand end of the rope with both hands and held on for dear life.

I managed to right myself and then inch down the rest of the rap.

Lessons learned: I should have added more friction to my rappel device to account for the extra weight of the haul bag. A backup like a prussik or an autoblock would have been good too! Having Wes lower the pig to me after I rapped would have been another decent option. I don't think we tied knots in the end of the rope or tied the ends together -- even then I think a knot could have slipped through my Figure 8 if I had lost control of the rappel.

p.s. we did make it back to the base just after sunset and had a glorious dinner!
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 23, 2011 - 04:21pm PT
Pardon me, but where is the "Repelling- Be A Vigilante" thread?
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Nov 23, 2011 - 04:32pm PT
Very good, useful post. it's easy to get complacent on the trade route rap stations, but my partner and I always check out the rap station, sometimes add new cord, and cut out a ratty sling.

it's morbid, but i have a bunch of the "Accidents in north american mountaineering" books, and they describe all the recorded accidents. lots of injuries/deaths on repel/descent that could have been totally avoided

scott
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 23, 2011 - 06:10pm PT
I went down the rope first with the haul bag on my back. Well I had never rapped with just a heavy weight on my back (and with my center of gravity much higher and behind me). It probably weighed 50 lbs to my 130 lbs.
Easy enough to rig a quick and dirty chest harness with a double length sling (think figure 8 sling around your shoulders with the end loops coming together at your chest). Clip it to the rope with a 'biner to take some of the weight. Keeps you from flipping over backwards.
I've used this with no troubles.
Any other thoughts?
md307

climber
jackson, wy
Nov 23, 2011 - 06:19pm PT
The weakest commercial ones were the old skinny SMCs. They rated @ 3000 lbs new, but they were hollow and with wear, 300 may be a fact for an old one.LOL The new SMC's are much fatter and rate @7000 lbs. Fixe stainless rap rings are crazy strong, will minimally wear and rate at 12,500lbs when new.
true, sorry about the fast post. I deleated that part.
A5scott

Trad climber
Chicago
Nov 23, 2011 - 11:17pm PT
haha, I'm still here... but my partner had me rap first with this anchor backed up with cams... my weight to test the anchor. I think it was actually better than this looks though. it was a few years ago. notice the thin hollow rap rings.

scott


donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 24, 2011 - 02:29am PT
Looks bomber to me, two natural anchors.
Ed Hartouni

Trad climber
Livermore, CA
Nov 24, 2011 - 02:51am PT
when using the vegetation it helps to know what the species characteristics are...
my wife is always aghast when she sees pictures like that, knowing what the typical root structures are and such, she doesn't climb so it doesn't help me at all, except to be wary.

the block looks bomber though... but maybe not if the tree is holding it in place
TWP

Trad climber
Mancos, CO
Nov 27, 2011 - 10:29am PT
In-days-gone-by when reading the numerous "He rapped off the end of the rope and died" stories, I complacently wondered, "How could he have been so stupid?"

I found the answer one fine day.

As I too complacently rapped to near the end of the rope (no knot backup either, rapping into a hanging stance none the less) I learned the amount of friction through the rap device DRAMATICALLY and RAPIDLY goes from "good" to "nothing" as you near the end of the rope.

If you are sliding blissfully down the rope, you can pass the point of no return before you know it.

ERGO

SLOW WAY DOWN went approaching rope's end (last ten plus feet) so this loose of friction does not take you by surprise.

Of course, the self-righteous might say, "but I'D NEVER forget to knot the end of the rope." But that, as with all bromides, will be ignored one fine day, and the above-advice comes back into play.
apogee

climber
Nov 27, 2011 - 12:15pm PT
A little on the tri-axial side, though.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Nov 27, 2011 - 02:59pm PT
To the extent that one can tell things from a photo, I'd concur with those who think there is nothing sketchy-looking about that tree-and-thread rap anchor. Of course, on a 200-foot cliff with a carriage road underneath, there is no time penalty for being extra prudent, so backing the rig up for the first person down is certainly a reasonable option.

For stations whose anchor points are clearly substantial, as appears to be the case here, the biggest concern is the webbing, and the biggest concern about the webbing is the parts you can't see.

Sometimes the invisible parts are just behind a tree that grows at an acute angle to the cliff face and perhaps has lots of branches that interfere with getting a good look behind the tree. It is critical to do this anyway. I have found slings that looked fine in front that were so abraded in back by their contact with the bark that they could be (and were) snapped by a vigorous jerk.

Threaded slings can be more of a problem. If the slings are loose enough to rotate so that the portion behind/inside the thread can be brought out into the light of day and inspected, then all is well. If the slings won't budge and you can't peer into the thread region to inspect what is there, then I think extreme caution is called for, no matter how good everything looks on the surface.

There could be sharp edges inside, animals might have gnawed on the hidden parts, and channeled water might have contributed to far more deterioration inside than there is outside. I think such anchors need to be backed up and then gently bounce tested. (Gently because you don't want the test to further cut the sling on a hidden sharp edge.) If it is possible to cut away and remove the resident slings and install your own, that is certainly the way to go, but sometimes things are too wedged to manage this.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 27, 2011 - 04:53pm PT
The Gunks anchor has been bugging me for a couple of days.
On the face of it, that anchor looks safe.
I'd want to be sure the threaded slings are OK.
The base of that tree is not so OK.
1: Looks as if the green webbing has cut through the bark and is being grown over by the trunk. That makes the sling questionable. It may be detiorated where it's grown over and you've no way of knowing. Also, if it's grown over, that green sling is much older than it looks.
2: I'm never sanguine about a tree whose trunk is less than the diameter of my forearm. So that tree is marginal anyway.
The way it's sharing the load with the threaded sling is good.
If that's a popular route, bolts might be in order to increase safety and reduce environmental impact.
Toker Villain

Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
Nov 27, 2011 - 06:17pm PT
High Traverse your chest sling advice is poor.

The thing to do with a heavy load is to clip it to the bottom of the harness biner with the descender and jug so the weight goes right on the rope.
With a little practice one can stop and still unweight the jug and continue.






EDIT for next post;
rgold,
ARGH!!!!
Climbers have routes.
Trees have roots.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Nov 27, 2011 - 08:33pm PT
In the Gunks, a tree like that, with a root system heading straight into the cliff in a horizontal crack, is usually pretty good. Of course, one would test the thing by yarding on the either the slings or the tree base (suitably protected in case of failure, of course.) This one looks like it belongs to the genre that doesn't budge at all under such tests. Still and all, I don't think I'd use it as the only anchor, not when you're on a 200 foot cliff and are only rappelling for convenience anyway.

A scarier situation occurs when the roots are in soil that is thin and poorly attached, as in the picture below.


In spite of the new slings on the tree itself, the entire tree and the soil it is rooted in are ready to pitch over the edge, and did so of their own accord within a few weeks of this shot.

(Naturally, we removed the slings from the tree after taking this picture. The nature of the route has the party established underneath the tree, in a position in which the soil pulling away from the rock is not visible.)

Edit: After appropriate scolding from Piton Ron above, I changed the tree's "route system" to its "root system." My typing abounds in heterographic substitutions...
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 28, 2011 - 06:41pm PT
Piton Ron
I agree that the chest sling support if you're rapping with a load won't work for a heavy load. The OP mentioned 50lbs for which I think it's OK. Certainly not for a pig-sized load. Although I'm certainly open to correction on even my limited claim.

The thing to do with a heavy load is to clip it to the bottom of the harness biner with the descender and jug so the weight goes right on the rope.
With a little practice one can stop and still unweight the jug and continue.
I've read this about 10 times and still don't understand your point. We're talking about rappelling, not jugging.
Even for jugging, it's not clear to me what you mean.
cheers.
choo.choo

Trad climber
New York
Nov 28, 2011 - 10:36pm PT
since my post a few days back I ran into this post about "Riding the Pig". Seems like a great way to rap with a pig (instead of having it on your back!).

http://www.terragalleria.com/mountain/info/yosemite/pig-east-ledges.html
Rattlesnake Arch

Social climber
Home is where we park it
Nov 29, 2011 - 07:04am PT
Of course, on a 200-foot cliff with a carriage road underneath, there is no time penalty for being extra prudent

Saving time is the only reason to rap at the Gunks, otherwise there are pleasant walk-offs.



I'm being a bit facetious here. It takes little time to back up an anchor, I know.

But I've noticed parties waiting in line to rap, near the Uberfall, when they could have walked off. And sketchy slings have sprouted only 20 ft from other perfectly good rap anchors that didn't need a back-up.

Back in the early 70's when I learned to climb there, we seldom used to rap. I'm not sure why, or if I even thought about it, it just wasn't done as often..
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 29, 2011 - 10:10am PT
I've survived many epic descents in the mountains with difficult rappelling, but, one thing for sure, I NEVER rap when there is an easy walk off. Rapping the Uberfall makes no sense.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 30, 2011 - 01:29pm PT
There's a failure analysis concept that it usually takes more than one mistake for a system failure.

A tragic accident which illustrates the concept:
From a link posted by Clint on a Pinnacles thread.
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/pin/acc/765tomb.htm
The salient bits extracted:
Several factors contributed to this tragedy:
(1) The use of only a waist loop to support the body weight during the rappel.
(2) The use of a Prusik Knot back-up to safeguard the rappel.
(3) The novice climber's inability to relieve the strain on his waist and chest.
(4) The lack of sufficient equipment by the second climber to effect a quick rescue.

So let's ignore items 3 and 4 and go to the original setup which led to the rappel failure, items 1 and 2
The use of a carabiner friction brake for descending a rappel line is an accepted and proven technique. Keep in mind that this was 1976. Attaching this brake system to a waist loop ONLY is not commonly practiced. This method apparently was preferred by ... and he taught it to his students. Its main advantage seems to be that of simplicity - the wrong 'advantage' when safety is key. Most climbers prefer a seat harness to ease the strain on the waist. One has only to hang free a few seconds from a waist loop to realize that the strain on the waist and thoracic region can be very painful and breathing made extremely difficult.

The simple expedient of tying a Prusik knot to the rope and clipping it to the waist loop protects against accidental detachment from the carabiner brake and losing control of the rappel. It also increases security at the end of an unknown rappel.
However, ITS USE IS A QUESTIONABLE PRACTICE. It inhibits freedom of motion. The knot can tighten up out of reach. There is also a real difficulty in negotiating overhangs and the knot is virtually impossible to loosen under tension. Also, it must grip instantly in the event of a free fall or the rope can suffer damage from the extreme friction and heat generated.
This is why I've gone to an Autoblock set below the belay device. Which has it's own caveats/; mainly keeping it short enough that it can't run up against the belay device and thereby be kept loose.

The accident report is by Jody Langford who really knew his stuff.
tolman_paul

Trad climber
Anchorage, AK
Nov 30, 2011 - 02:09pm PT
Not everyone climbs for a simple thrill.

As far as why many of us have aprehension regarding rappelling, think of it this way. When climbing you strive for 4 points of contact, both feet and both hands. When rapelling, you really only have one primary point of contact, your break hand.
jstan

climber
Nov 30, 2011 - 02:18pm PT
Redundancy is built into all but one part of climbing, that part being the rappel. Seems to me those wanting a thrill out of climbing are well advised to keep this in mind. As accident history testifies, rappelling involves more than apparent risk.
rectorsquid

climber
Lake Tahoe
Nov 30, 2011 - 02:23pm PT
As far as why many of us have aprehension regarding rappelling, think of it this way. When climbing you strive for 4 points of contact, both feet and both hands. When rapelling, you really only have one primary point of contact, your break hand

This concept seems strange to me. Most climbers will get on a top roped single pitch route and let the belayer lower them without so much worry. Then when rapping, everyone seems to get all freaked out about backups and four points of contact. As if the belayer isn't your only real point of contact if you are hang dogging, getting lowered, or happen to actually fall on a hard route.

And no one strives for 4 points of contact unless they are not actually climbing.

Dave
ydpl8s

Trad climber
Santa Monica, California
Nov 30, 2011 - 02:35pm PT
I've survived many epic descents in the mountains with difficult rappelling, but, one thing for sure, I NEVER rap when there is an easy walk off.

This comment by Jim is IMHO the most sane statement made here lately. Enjoy that easy walkoff, you've earned it, but even then, be vigilant, walkoffs can get ya when your guard is down.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Nov 30, 2011 - 04:29pm PT
Here's a vigilance issue I don't think we've covered yet...

Getting hair and/or clothing stuck in a rap device is no joke, and can lead to very serious consequences. Years ago, a climber cut their harness trying to escape from caught clothing and died from the resulting fall. Even if not fatal, such incidents can provide quite an epic, with painful results for hair and torn fabric for clothing. If the climber doesn't know how to unweight the rap device, they will be in serious trouble.

The modern trend of extending the rap device to make room for an autoblock underneath tends to put the device at head level, making hair an easy target. Your head will be pulled up against the device, and if it is hot you'll get some burns as well. The autoblock will allow you to let go of the brake strand, but will not unweight the rap device. You won't be able to move down the rope, and will have to engineer your escape with your hear pinned to a burning hot device. If the rappel is part of an ongoing epic (storm, darkness, injury, etc.) then getting stuck will compound an already bad situation.

Before rapping, make sure all clothing is securely tucked in and your hair, if long, is pulled back and tied or else safely tucked away in a hat.
ladyscarlett

Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
Nov 30, 2011 - 04:38pm PT
YES!! Thank you for bringing that up sir rgold!

I've had long hair since I started climbing. Every time some climber sees my hair, they tell me horror stories of hair related accidents. Thus, I do try to 'be vigilant'...but of course, I had to learn the hard way!

Luckily, my hair is long enough that in the 10+ times (and surely many more) I've gotten my hair caught in my device, the problematic area was still at least 2 feet away from my face so I had a lot of slack to get myself out of my bind (hehehe).

Guess there's something to be said for having it long enough for some...play?

HAHAHAHA

Cheers!

LS
AE

climber
Boulder, CO
Nov 30, 2011 - 04:50pm PT
Excellent topic:
* Cheap nuts are not in vogue, but when forced to rap and leave gear, pricey cams are both too dear to leave more than one per anchor (!) and yet often not as easy to discern between truly bomber and only so-so.

I used to carry a selection of the simplest Clog nuts, tapered on just two sides with a single hole, on a 1" over the shoulder sling that served multiple uses. On the first ascent of "Necrophilia" in RMNP, Dakers had roughly thought through his climb, but no so much the descent; traversing the flank of Thatchtop in a blizzard, at dusk, we ran out of ledges and so picked a steep snow chute to go down. It became a narrow chimney, and we were forced to scrabble in the small walls covered with snow. I eventually found a shallow groove a foot long, and barely deep enough to seat the smallest 1/2" Clog nut. I whacked it a few times with my ice ax, spit on it, and gave the anchor a token ice ax belay in loose snow as Dakers rapped into the gloom; I stressed how shitty the nut was, demanding that he stop at the very first chance to get a better anchor in, then he disappeared.
One rope doubled only gave him 75 feet to work with, but minutes passed, then at least 1/2 an hour or more before the rope went slack and he was off. I then had to leave the illusory security of my half-buried stance to lower off the nut so bad I could see it right at the surface, in the dark and snow. I've never rappelled so delicately, slowly foot by foot; soon it was overhanging, and at last I was even with him, standing neatly under one chockstone and standing on another with a solid anchor ready. I didn't get why it took so long - turned out, he misjudged in the gloom, thought the ropes reached the snow below, and when he realized they didn't, he had chimneyed 30 feet or so back UP to this perfect stance, taking up the slack as he climbed!
The thought of him slipping, and shock-loading me and the anchor would have put me into a frenzy had I not been so exhausted, but he and I shared no further alpine adventures afterward.

 I recall that when using 2 different dia. ropes, the thinner stretches more, which initiates a weighted sawing action through sling anchors, but I can't clearly visualize which way that works, and so which rope is the proper one to have in the slings. Any helpful clarification here?

-Almost forgot, the Paul Sibley trick of yanking your buddy's tie-in. It's not a joke at all, but a quick check that may reveal a shortcoming in the system that visual inspection alone may miss.
 As a member of the smallish climbing community, remember how to swallow your pride, if necessary, and politely offer advice/ suggestions if you witness someone's mistake or accident-to-be. Try to come across as a concerned equal, not a self-righteous blowhard, don't sweat your ego if they dislike you or resent your intrusion - be content knowing you may have saved a life.
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Nov 30, 2011 - 05:05pm PT
Most climbers will get on a top roped single pitch route and let the belayer lower them without so much worry.

I've never been comfortable with being lowered, indoors or out, and almost always keep a hand on or near the rope, especially at the start. And I'm careful to ensure that there are clear two-way communications, even if the volume causes others to frown.

You can even lower yourself hand over hand, with a backup belay.
donini

Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
Topic Author's Reply - Nov 30, 2011 - 05:09pm PT
Being lowered, especially by someone I don't know well, is the most frightening aspect of climbing for me. It is virtually the only time when I have absolutely no control. Don't get blase about being lowered, make sure the lowerer knows what they are doing and knows what YOU are doing.
Bill Mc Kirgan

Trad climber
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Nov 30, 2011 - 05:16pm PT
Even Santa's gotta watch-out!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9Qg39Fvg1c

As reported by SylviaSmile on RC.com forum thread, 'Rappelling: Doing It Wrong'

http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2555106;page=unread#unread
Anxious Melancholy

Mountain climber
Between the Depths of Despair & Heights of Folly
Nov 30, 2011 - 05:37pm PT
here's some rap anchors from my trip last weekend down Death Valley's Bad Canyon:

HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Nov 30, 2011 - 06:49pm PT
I've had long hair since I started climbing. Every time some climber sees my hair, they tell me horror stories of hair related accidents. Thus, I do try to 'be vigilant'...but of course, I had to learn the hard way!
In the climbing dept of my REI about 8 months ago. A woman with LONG hair was buying a rappel device, an ATC as I recall. The female REI employee was giving her the basic idea of how it works. The buyer mentioned she was going to use it for canyoneering. After the employee departed I mentioned to the woman the possibility of her LONG hair getting caught in the rapp device. Needless to say she was surprised!
I suggested she be sure her hair was tucked neatly down the back of her shirt before she rapped.
Minerals

Social climber
The Deli
Nov 30, 2011 - 08:44pm PT
Just saw that Santa video on CNN.com and thought it was pretty darn funny! But on a serious note, it really does suck when you get your real beard caught in an ATC while cleaning a new route on rappel and a bunch of hair gets ripped out. It hurts like hell! But you learn pretty quickly to not let it happen again…
steve0we

Big Wall climber
San Antonio, TX
Dec 3, 2011 - 12:00pm PT
First off, this is a great read! Thanks Matt M for posting this on Facebook for us to check out with the bad weather outside. I have had to rappel a few times with POOR at best conditions and have another option I want to run by you guys...

being the 215LB big bones guy, I rap first and as I go down the double rope, I clip gear(on one side of the double rope) in spots that I can as I rap. My logic is that if the main anchor fails, I have backed it up multiple times. The last person rappelling cleans the gear as he comes down. 3 or 4 well placed pieces can easily be retrieved by the last person and it provides safety to the entire group.

Thoughts?
Mighty Hiker

climber
Vancouver, B.C.
Dec 3, 2011 - 01:21pm PT
I've done that once or twice, e.g. once when some bolts on a climb at Squamish broke. It's a last resort tactic. You need to start placing gear as soon as you start rappelling, so that if the main anchor fails, there's less stress on the substitutes, and the other climbers don't fall as far when they're pulled off. Pretty messy scenario, but maybe better than no anchor at all.
rgold

Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
Dec 9, 2011 - 11:22am PT
I've lost track of the number of highly experienced climbers I know of personally who have had serious and, in some cases, fatal rappelling accidents in the last three years or so. I think it is somewhere between 5 and 10.

In most aspects of climbing, experience contributes to safety, but I've come to believe that the opposite is true when it comes to rappelling: the more raps you have in your career, the more likely you are to have a rappelling accident. The fact that the activity itself is so routine, combined with a very high price for any type of mental lapse, seems to be the explanation.

By and large, the accidents involve rapping off the end of the ropes, although last October the British climber Ben Wintringham, a guy with 50 years of experience and hundreds of new routes all over the world, was killed in Morocco when his rap anchor failed. In many cases, but not all, the ropes were uneven.

I must say that the answer would seem to be knotting the ends of the ropes. A lot of us don't do this routinely because to the potential for getting thrown ropes hung up somewhere, but I am starting to wonder if the arguments are realistic given the accident rate.

It is interesting that the autoblock rappel back-up, a solution to a problem of loss of control that just about never happens, is so widely accepted, whereas knotting the rope ends is far less common. This is just one of several instances in climbing when the human perception of risk is almost entirely unrelated to the actual risks in the situation.

Of course, you won't rap off the ends of the rope if you are constantly looking at the rope to see where those ends are, and surely the message of these accumulated tragedies is that if we aren't going to knot the ends, then we certainly need to pay a hell of a lot more attention to where those ends are, every time, all the time. In view of the number of accidents involving uneven strands, this means being sure we have spotted both ends and are not making assumptions based an observation of only one strand.

I'm beginning to think about the first person down rapping with the ends of the rope clipped to their harness, which guarantees that they know exactly where those ends are and makes it impossible for the ends to be uneven without the condition announcing itself. This doesn't save any time, but avoids the hanging problems that may happen with knotted ends, and might even save time devoted to unsnarling and rethrowing ropes that have piled up somewhere on the rap route.

One drawback is that you can't tell if your ropes reach the intended target, but you often can't tell that even when the ropes are thrown. A second drawback, perhaps more serious, is that all the twists created by the rap device will be trapped. Of course, one could in this case stop and dump the ends and then pull them back up and re-clip, but this is beginning to sound too time-consuming.
scuffy b

climber
dissected alluvial deposits, late Pleistocene
Dec 9, 2011 - 11:37am PT
Thanks, Rich.
"Food for thought" really is an understatement of what your last post
provides.
HighTraverse

Trad climber
Bay Area
Dec 9, 2011 - 01:49pm PT
It is interesting that the autoblock rappel back-up, a solution to a problem of loss of control that just about never happens, is so widely accepted, whereas knotting the rope ends is far less common. This is just one of several instances in climbing when the human perception of risk is almost entirely unrelated to the actual risks in the situation.
Agreed. I don't always use the autoblock or knotted ends.
But I seldom use the autoblock WITHOUT knotting the ends. If I'm concerned about my safety, I knot the ends. The only time I've experienced a serious rapp rope snag, it was retrieving after the knots had been taken out.
I use the autoblock if I anticipate needing to stop, for instance to free snarled ropes or if I can't see the next stance. I don't assume the autoblock will stop me from going off the ends!

I see a lot of people rappelling fast, as if they're Special Forces guys coming out of a chopper. To my mind this is a careless attitude and adds unnecessary risk. I want to be in control and watching what's happening all the way down. As someone said earlier, a rappel failure is almost always a Very Bad Thing.
Captain...or Skully

climber
Asgard or bust
Dec 18, 2011 - 11:03pm PT
Hope I didn't scare you too much at the City, Jim. I try to do a smooth lower, mostly. I understand the feeling.
mouse from merced

Trad climber
merced, california
May 10, 2012 - 07:43am PT
For all the beards caught in rappel set-ups, ouch!

I learned about the weight-on-the-rope thing, and it is something I just naturally worked out for myself, but nice to know it's a recognizable part of the techniques used in safe rappelling. As in lots of things related to climbing safety, it boils down to paying attention and practice.
Pay attention, class. Do your homework.
And when you are out long past the planned trip time, look out for each other. It is when you are most vulnerable.



I woke up thinking about the Bachmann Knot. It is a prussik used to back up rappels and jumar set-ups. Its most desirable aspect is the speed with which it is possible to loosen the knot. It has shown to be an effective, twist-preventing thingamajug, if one practices...

Wikipedia article (very basic).

or www.ehow.comvideo_4468129_tie_bachmann_knot.html



It never hurts to repeat:

Pay attention on climbs and on descents equally.

Do your homework and practice not rappelling.
It's the easiest way to be safe you will ever find.
Steve Grossman

Trad climber
Seattle, WA
Mar 13, 2013 - 11:06am PT
Safety Bump...
Messages 1 - 181 of total 181 in this topic
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