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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jun 29, 2015 - 01:11pm PT
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Just notice what happens to your focus and atention when this occurs.
That happens to me all of the time. I am a horrible day dreamer.
The weird thing is, some of my best ideas have come to me when doing something mindless, like showering or driving alone down a highway at 3:00am. I am not even aware that I'm thinking, then BAM. An idea hits me.
Most of them aren't earth shaking revelations, but some of them have been. There was one case when I was struck with an idea about something that I hadn't worked on in a couple of years. It just hit me, and I had to pull over to write it down, lest I forget it.
It is kind of like dreaming. I can't remember my dreams. I can wake up in the middle of a vivid dream, but its content just evaporates in seconds. The ideas are like that. Sometimes the best ideas just pop into my head out of apparently nowhere. Meaning not what JL calls Discursive Thought. I'm not even aware that I'm thinking, really. I'm certainly not focused on anything other than not nodding off and ending up in a ditch.
Odd how the mind works.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jun 29, 2015 - 01:59pm PT
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Ward, I'm surprised by the percussive statement as well. To me it's the haunting melodies that I remember. And I wonder how much Indian influence there might be? So much of what we attribute to the Arabs actually originated in India and was then transported by the Arabs to Europe. It would be interesting to compare sitar music and Indian tabla to Arabic music.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jun 29, 2015 - 02:01pm PT
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and blue, to insert a little woo here, if you made that statement about your daughter to an Asian, they would say she has probably been Indian and Mexican in past lives. So contemplate that!
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2015 - 02:26pm PT
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What BASE describes is well known to all writers. You slave away at some passage and can't move forward so you take a break and break the chain of thought and the crucial data bubbles up from the depths. When intentional or directed thinking runs aground, other parts of us often fill the gap.
But a separate issue is mind wandering when we are intentionally trying to stay present.
Rupert Spira is not from a school of thought I have much in common with. His evaluations of the experiential adventures feel religious and arcane. But he had one thing perfectly described: Eyes open meditation is the process of "being" alert and present with our awareness.
It's a being drill - as in human being - and not a discursive task or cognitive accomplishment. But what happens when our being (presence) gets co-opted by a person, place, thing or phenomenon that has sharp "hooks," and what is getting hooked and yanked "away?"
Our focus.
When our focus is no longer connected to our awareness, it toggles down and fuses to the "thing" in question (thought, feeling, story, etc.), we lose our sense of presence in the here and now ("Be here now!" is the old mantra), and the content we are fused with grinds away on autopilot as our instinctual center carries out physical, stimulus-response tasks like driving, etc.
To combat this, the Sufis developed the art of "self remembering" (the "higher" self, not the small or egoic ""I").
There are many ways to tackle the problem of NOT being able to maintain a disciplined presence with our awareness. None of them are easy IME.
JL
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Jun 29, 2015 - 02:46pm PT
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Ward, I'm surprised by the percussive statement as well. To me it's the haunting melodies that I remember.
I don't think the Arab composer was suggesting that the aesthetic force majeure of their traditional music was dominated by percussion--- he was merely alerting me to an overlooked aspect in the structural flow of the music.
In western pop music, for example, there is a mostly syncopated back beat that signals to the ear the timing elements of the piece in a very stark way--especially when fills/rolls/flams subsequently occur to signal a harmonic/melodic change-- such as an intro to a chorus part and so on. As many musicians have noted this back beat can sometimes obscure the mystery in the underlying pulse of the piece.
Traditional Arab music contains such structural signalling components but in a much subtler way. Much more.Even when it is relatively raucous and at high tempo.
And you are correct about the very obvious cross-fertilization between the music of India and Arabia. However, methinks Indian forms had much greater influence upon traditional Persian music, in general. One can only wonder what kind of exchange of this sort might have taken place between India and China, had not the Himalayas forced treacherous detours.
Part of the reason why people respond to the melodic elements in these historic types of music is generally probably because the harmonic platform is so very subtle and oft times lacking discernible chordal progressions; and notably because certain of the instruments are rather high timbre. Only in certain limited registers are these instruments given over to harmonic compatibility with the other instruments.
Anyone who has composed for, say, oboe and clarinet as ensemble instruments, knows of which I speak.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jun 29, 2015 - 02:47pm PT
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"sneaky little..." I'm 6'1" @ 185 lb (now). Curious, you?
Pretty hefty for a Valley Girl, but you DO like to be provocative!
What BASE describes is well known to all writers (JL)
As it is to all research scientists.
When our focus is no longer connected to our awareness . . . (JL)
I can't understand why it would be appealing to focus entirely on our awareness unless doing so would provide a glimpse of a deeper external reality. Is open awareness the trigger that reveals the impermanence of "I" and allows our True Nature to shine through? How does one feel when that happens?
There are other trance states that might be just as rewarding if not more so.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Jun 29, 2015 - 03:01pm PT
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So contemplate that!
Yeah Jan. but remember i believe we all were once in heaven bouncing to all the best of hymms. Today we just have smatterings from the good'ol days;)
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Jun 29, 2015 - 03:14pm PT
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In Hinduism and Buddhism neither heaven nor hell are permanent states so we all can remember both if we get to a certain level of mind focus. The only thing permanent is enlightenment which is beyond even heaven.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2015 - 03:25pm PT
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JG wrote: "I can't understand why it would be appealing to focus entirely on our awareness unless doing so would provide a glimpse of a deeper external reality."
In my opinion, no-mind meditation is about getting a clearer glimpse of our internal (subjective/experiential) reality. Learning about external reality is the province of measuring. If a clearer view of the subjective/experiential ITSELF was possible via measuring, intelligent people would absolutely do so instead of slipping and sliding around trying to get jiggy with the experiential.
Then: There are other trance states that might be just as rewarding if not more so.
Again, IMO, no-mind is the opposite of a trance, and is a robust trance buster. A seminal work on trances is by psychologist Steven Wolinsly, called, "Trances People Live." Here, awareness is fused, to lesser or greater degrees, with content (people, places, things and phenomenon - including any and all evaluations). Break the fusion and break the trance.
If it was only that easy...
JL
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jun 29, 2015 - 04:13pm PT
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Thanks for the reply.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Jun 29, 2015 - 04:37pm PT
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DMT: Yeah how come gurus are so crabby all the time?
Lol. :-D
(I’m ready to rue the day I started a conversation about “trances.”) ;->
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Jun 29, 2015 - 04:44pm PT
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Again, IMO, no-mind is the opposite of a trance, and is a robust trance buster.
"You might not believe this, little fella,
But it'll cure your asthma too!"
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2015 - 05:02pm PT
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Again, IMO, no-mind is the opposite of a trance, and is a robust trance buster.
Cintune ranted: "You might not believe this, little fella,
But it'll cure your asthma too!"
I mentioned that trance breaking involved breaking our fusion to all evaluations, including the idea that measurements (or meditation) will "cure your ashma too." IMO, Cintune, neither measurements nor observing are guarantees against health hazards, woo, and your specie of folderol and tomfollery.
So you have justly earned the pointy hat and must once again return to the corner and contemplate the immortal line: "Look here brother: who you jiving with that cosmik debris?"
JL
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Jun 29, 2015 - 05:35pm PT
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ward, looks like the link to twitter wasn't the end of the world for you after all.
Never thought it was. Never can such pedestrian indiscretions on your part give rise to such magnitude.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Jun 29, 2015 - 05:39pm PT
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folderol and tomfollery.
Verily. Couldn't resist a jab at the good ol' snake-oil panacea ploy, though.
No-thing: It's Good For What Ails Ya!®
Assuming that what ails ya is an incurable, petrified clinging to the delusional comforts of the discursive mind.
"Out through the night
And the whispering breezes,
To the place where they keep
The Imaginary Diseases...."
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Jun 29, 2015 - 05:40pm PT
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such pedestrian indiscretions on your part... WT
Oh you're a mean and snarky man, I'm surprised you have a dog.
No more compliments for you.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Jun 29, 2015 - 05:49pm PT
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Too late. The harmonica song is your legacy.
Thank you BTW
Here are some lyrics from that song:
" I'm Runnin from the crazy world
I'm Runnin from myself
I'm Runnin from the truth
Or was it a lie?"
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Jun 29, 2015 - 06:12pm PT
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I’m ready to rue the day I started a conversation about “trances.” (MikeL)
Don't be. It's added a little spice to rather humdrum conversations.
;>)
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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Jun 30, 2015 - 07:04am PT
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Words matter, even when they refer to the same thing.
"I am meditating."
"You are in a trance."
"So-and-so is zoned out."
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