Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 10:38am PT
|
BB'er said "Please don't think i'm being hateful, only observent. But your descriptions of the zen way. To sit still,eyes closed with a grin being filled with bliss just seems to be harkening only to your "I". All inwardly. Nonsharing of YOUR blissfulness or love. On top of that youve described an abandonment of some emotions like pain, grief, anger, etc. the ones your "I" has deemed unuseful or negative to your bliss. Have you never felt or heard of great demonstrations of grief or anger directed maturely to bring about even greater feelings of joy or love to the experiencer, and more than often also to those witnessing around him?
Please don't hold it against me if i'm wrong in my a*#esement. i'm jus trying to figure out why some people seem afraid of their feelings.."
BB'er your statement is your own construct. which is typically why I post, when people construct an opinion about meditation practice that is constructed and contrived from no experience. it is like someone creating a treatise about sport vs trad without ever having climbed. They are easy to spot by the climbers but not by the non-climbers. I have never represented zen/meditation practice as you have contrived.
The purpose of zen is to find/experience your true self(the one not attached to self) and then help all beings. Very similar to true christianity IMHO.
You were probably just trolling me.
|
|
cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 10:49am PT
|
Then again, those old Vedic and Kundalini dudes did seem to have more than a glimmer of a clue about the functionality of the nervous and endocrine systems.
they knew nothing of what you mean when you write "nervous and endocrine systems"
They certainly didn't, but they had a strong intuition based on empirical observation. And their conclusions, as codified and now endlessly repeated by WB, were an understandable attempt to make some kind of sense out of what they observed, considering their limitations. Much closer to the mark than most anything Aristotle came up with, for example.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 10:51am PT
|
no i wasn't. and i know i didn't get my meaning very well described.
just in my own experience the most mature meditaters seem very stoic, monotone, monoemotion if you will. i related that with your descriptions of "letting go of the pain" is that how you said it?
i'm just confused as to whether in their maturity is there a goal to not show or exude much outward emotion?
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 10:56am PT
|
HFCS ,if I had wanted everyone here to know my links I would have posted them. I am assuming you never stopped to consider that?
What's done is done. This is more proof you are a sneaky little .....aren't you?
" Runnin" was one of seven songs I composed , for every day of the week not long ago. I would wake up ,write a song from scratch, and record it live on soundcloud--all within 2 hours.It was an exercise.
Recently I am proudest of the piece I wrote for Woodwind Quintet, Fantasies and Recollections and a piece for Flute and Piano The Light Within both to be considered in numerous score submissions and contests in future.
Presently I am working on an orchestral piece for full orchestra.
My Soundcloud page is one of many music compilations I have out there.
As far as asking my new Arab friends anything about evolution --you've got to be kidding. I would never try something so sloppy,crass, heavy-handed, and boorish with people from a radically differing culture than mine.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 11:09am PT
|
Ward that's really great. i wonder if you could post one of renditions here so we can experience a little of your creativity? so asnot to have to join twitter or whatever. just a thought, maybe with some of your winnings you could fund a trip for Fruity to go over there and set those guys strait;)
He sure is forthcoming with everyone else but himself, isn't he!
|
|
paul roehl
Boulder climber
california
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 11:10am PT
|
and what is special about being human?
And herein is the problem. Why at once the dismissal of romanticism in previous posts and then a statement that is a paradigm of the romantic: humanity's equity with all nature, the triumph of nature and in its equity a kind of exaltation remarkably close to worship.
The special nature of humanity lies in its potential for virtue and understanding, Endings, suns dying, and so on don't negate the individual life actions that make humanity noble. In fact, knowledge of mortality only lends efficacy to that nobility. Nobility is found in the human effort not to succumb to despair but to find an antidote for the emptiness and brevity of existence.
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 11:16am PT
|
BB'er said "just in my own experience the most mature meditaters seem very stoic, monotone, monoemotion if you will. i related that with your descriptions of "letting go of the pain" is that how you said it?
i'm just confused as to whether in their maturity is there a goal to not show or exude much outward emotion? "
Do you hang out with alot of "mature" meditaters? My gut feeling is you are contriving again. Stoic , monotone, mono emotion etc...This falls into the the idea that meditaters should act a certain way. That is all contrived too. Zen prescribes to fully engage with what you are doing. The trick is to fully engage you need to let the self drop away; hence the practice or some sort of practice to loosen the grip of the attachment to self.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 11:24am PT
|
Ward that's really great. i wonder if you could post one of renditions here so we can experience a little of your creativity?
I'll work on that BB. Maybe do a filmed TR with music composed especially for a climb. Anyone got a head mounting GoPro I can borrow? lol
A year or two ago I wrote this Arabic-influenced piece for a rather large ensemble. I combined idiomatic modal structures found in Arab music with western idioms. It is still more or less incomplete at this stage. Now for some reason I've decided to resurrect the damn thing.
Time to get to work.
Talk to ya'll later.
|
|
Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 11:32am PT
|
blue, there are many forms of Christian spirituality besides scripture reading and interpretation along with discursive prayer. If you read the desert fathers or the monastics of any age, you will find that they were and are big believers in quieting the passions and wordless meditation.
And cintune, I quite agree with you about the chakras and kundalini observers vs Aristotle. Those in India who first studied the chakras and kundalini were concerned with what they were and how to use them for the benefit of humans, whereas the western philosophers were forever talking about an ideal world. Given my own experiences with trying to understand what was happening in meditation and find some kind of scientific explanations, I came to the conclusion that western science still has a lot to learn about the nervous and endocrine systems.
As for whether or not Werner's Vedic philosophy is an outgrowth of this empirical philosophy, I would say yes, but one of many. To read Theresa of Avila or John of the Cross or even the modern Bernadette Roberts, is to read an entirely different interpretation of what is clearly the same universally human phenomenon.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 11:38am PT
|
Thanks PP
if your getting bored maybe give me one of your links again please.
But when and why do we want to be detatched? most always when in a public setting i hardly feel attached. most of my attention is spent trying to fit in, get along, learn. i admit my greatest atachment to I seems to come out in arguementive situations. but in that scenerio the I may have to give up a held truth, come to realize he might have it wrong. Change seems to be very hard for I to accept..
|
|
jstan
climber
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 11:43am PT
|
BB:
Develop a love for playing with new ideas. That can be done when one no longer feels threatened.
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 11:56am PT
|
Ward that's cool.
continueing with the mind mode. i've realized my 9yo daughter likes to eat at the Indian and Mexican resturants because of the background music. i notice a dissinct difference in her movements, their much more peppy and upbeat compared to the houchy mamma music her mother's always listening to.
It is quite stunningly oblivious in her posture. i wonder if there is scientific studies to this?
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 11:59am PT
|
Ward, I'd like to hear some of your compositions as well. I particularly like Arabic style music.
Yes I was once told by a Arab composer/musician that the percussive elements in their music was the key to much of the underlying structure, which came as somewhat of a surprise to me. I immediately assumed, but did not say openly at the time, that this aspect of Arabic percussion may be due to various African influences.
thanks Jan.Will do.
|
|
High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
|
Ward, you're being silly. You are the one who posted your own twitter pic touting all your new followers. If you didn't want the attention - it shouts of seeking attention - why did you do that? All I did was look up a couple - from your own pic! - and there you were. All of 30 seconds. I was curious, interested, on what point or count, they all followed you.
Perhaps you should be more considerate. At least I was interested enough to actually read your pic? You say links. What links (plural)? I asked if such and such was you. One link. One. One link that, btw, references an acct that ref both the mind thread and supertopo. (!!) So I think you should mellow your harsh, man.
Besides, do you not know how to take a compliment? I complimented you on your harmonica.
"Your harmonica playing is awesome!" -hfcs
(If in fact it is you, I still do not know.)
I am more than happy to delete that post referencing (apparently) you with the ONE link. If that is what you'd like, let me know.
It does though seem that in your latest couple posts you're adding to pile, not trying to minimize it. False outrage?? (Understandable? It is so popular on social media this year, is it not?)
If I don't hear, I'll let my last post stay. Congrats on all your new Arab friends. :)
.....
"As far as asking my new Arab friends anything about evolution --you've got to be kidding. I would never try something so sloppy,crass, heavy-handed, and boorish with people from a radically differing culture than mine." -Ward
And this is just double silly, btw.
PS
(1) Beta for you: I would suggest removing your own twitter snapshot if you want to remain on the dl.
(2) "sneaky little..." I'm 6'1" @ 185 lb (now). Curious, you?
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 12:22pm PT
|
Develop a love for playing with new ideas.
jstan i cant believe your saying that to me? i think my history on this forum proves i have a high propensity for new idea's.maybe it's cause i have the most to learn. in the outside world my attitude, i know nothing except mine and your experiences to be true. i can drive with my eyes closed.hehe
don't you think when we give up our learning attitude, we're inaffect giving up on life?
|
|
PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 12:31pm PT
|
BB'er said"But when and why do we want to be detatched?"
I would say unattached rather than detached. It is not about escape it is about observation and experience.
Attached in the sense of holding very tightly or rigidly to my opinions, condition and situation and unattached in the sense of holding all those things loosely. Your exactly right about the strongly held beliefs; and letting go of those typically provides great insight.
the zen method to hold them loosely is to ask who/what is it that is holding this idea or situation so rigidly? It all comes back to what is this "I", Me, my that is holding on so tightly. Alot of sitters/meditators in the zen school I am associated with ask What is I? on the in breath and just observe and listen on the out breath. easier said than done because often during that process I am also thinking about all the other stuff going on in my life. That is not good or bad but just part of the show.
It can be very difficult in the beginning because many people get bored and it is very difficult to sit when you are bored so they will often fall in and out of sleep during the beginning years of sitting. They are so attached to stimulation that they can't stay wake to the moment.
I am rambling ; need to get back to work.
Take care.
|
|
Ward Trotter
Trad climber
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 12:44pm PT
|
You're the one who posted you're own twitter pic touting all your new followers. If you didn't want the attention - it shouts of seeking attention
It was not attention seeking per se, and I wasn't "touting" anything. I probably thought- if I thought about it at all- my post being merely inspired by the whimsy and humor contained in that experience, and then posted " from the hip", as it were. I would never go about trying to impress or seek attention from the hallowed bunch on this thread, or any thread. If that were my game I would be posting at roughly about your frequency, don't you think?
A small matter I know but no more "attention seeking" than any one of your own posts. And a whole lot more memorable,I might add.
I played the harmonica,in a harmonica holder, on the folk song you cited, while strummin me guitar. I had not played the "harp" in months and must have impulsively utilized its many nuanced charms. Glad I did so because I was asked by a friend on stage who needed a dylanesque harp backup just a few days later.
Now...back to my Arabic language lessons..
(2) "sneaky little..." I'm 6'1" @ 185 lb (now). Curious, you?
Maybe Largo might be the dude you should be making size comparisons with.LOL
|
|
Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jun 29, 2015 - 12:47pm PT
|
The example Ed gave of the mind "checking out" while driving is an example of our awareness getting fused with content (feelings, thoughts, memories, furute projecting, etc) and us loosing conscious with our "observer." This happens during meditation as well. Just notice what happens to your focus and atention when this occurs.
JL
|
|
BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
|
|
|
Jun 29, 2015 - 12:49pm PT
|
PP, rambling? naw, there's never been a more important time as now for us all to fly our flag and see if it gets shot full of holes, or gets saluted:)
Namaste
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!