What is "Mind?"

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Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 9, 2014 - 08:59am PT
I dunno Jan the science regimes I enjoyed in my schooling all had historical aspects to them.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 9, 2014 - 09:01am PT
why the periodic table is important, not just that it is, and how it relates to interesting questions of cosmology etc.

I learned this in chemistry and physics in high school.

But I took those classes, willingly. I skipped drama and art class, I admit.

DMT
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 09:21am PT
So you've got to admit, this guy has guts. First he tears down every organized religion known to man as a bunch of irrational, destructive beliefs that only harm society, and then he takes the position that on the other hand, authentic spirituality is the most worthy pursuit one can possibly engage in.

Jan, did you write that? LOL!

http://www.amazon.com/Waking-Up-Spirituality-Without-Religion/product-reviews/1451636016/ref=dpx_acr_txt?showViewpoints=1
WBraun

climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 09:31am PT
If you read the comments correctly in Amazon you will see if you know this stuff he's a watered down mayvadi impersonalist.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 9, 2014 - 09:35am PT
Beauty and knowledge are not two separate things. For example, engineering design and sculpture require, at the meta level, the same processes. The design criteria and objectives may vary, the design rules may differ, but each discipline informs the other. Attention to detail, craftsmanship, design standards, and knowledge of manufacturing processes are the same for both. Both, at some point, establish relationships with human beings - intended and unintended.

I often hear of this dichotomy between the scientific and arts/humanities worlds - usually put forth by those who shy away from one or the other. Many practice both, however (it's quite common for scientists to also be artists, philosophers, poets even!). People who play in 'both' worlds come to quickly realize that the boundary is quite fuzzy - if, in fact, it's there at all.

My Cosmology class in college would have been nonsense without an understanding the history of the discipline - the story of how each theory came out and how it was verified - or debunked, through measurement. An understanding of the history of ideas that led up to each 'breakthrough' opens up the mind to get full value from such events - from relatively to the current impasse with regards to the standard model (such as it is) and quantum theory. After all, cross pollination between 'disciplines' (beg, borrow, steal - reduce, recycle, reuse) is a great way to make breakthroughs and have fun doing it.

Otherwise, we're often left with a layman's misunderstanding and overly general interpretation of what we actually DO know - E = M(C*C) being a prime example here.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 09:55am PT
Our very own jester, Dingus himself, accused Matt Strassler of "laughable crap."

I'm thinking that poor Dingus wrote Strassler off simply because I suggested looking at his ideas, while poor Dingus dissed one of the leading scientists out there.

Here is the man's qualifications:

About Me

Hi! I’m Matt Strassler, theoretical physicist — currently a visiting scholar at Harvard University, and until recently a full professor at Rutgers University — with over 75 papers on string theory and on particle physics.

I believe deeply that science is one of the world’s great spectator sports, and should be a source of joy and excitement for the public — especially for kids and for kids at heart. But my field of particle physics can be especially hard to follow! And this is such an exciting time, with the Large Hadron Collider (or LHC) exploring all sorts of new territory and having recently discovered the long-sought Higgs particle!

So check out my website, follow me on Twitter or Facebook, and enjoy! Here you’ll find careful consideration of all the developments at the LHC — the real deal, without all the hype, and without all the confusion generated by the press and by scientists with axes to grind. You’ll also find an explanation (to be gradually assembled) of what the LHC is, how it works, and why it was built. And there will also be occasional posts on the nature of science, how it really works (as opposed to what you learn in science class or read in the press,) and its role in history and in modern culture.

Also, in case you’re curious, I went to college at Simon’s Rock (the first “early college.”) I also attended Princeton and got my Ph. D. at Stanford. I’ve worked at the Institute for Advanced Study and been a faculty member at Rutgers, the University of Washington and the University of Pennsylvania. I was also a visiting assistant professor at Harvard.



Dingus might have bitten off a larger chunk than he can handle on this one. But, if Dingus was willing to was willing to put into writing what precisely he finds to be laughable about the professor's work, I can probably get him to respond and get Dingus clean on the issue.

And Tavsh, one's capacity for a subject does IME depend in part on interest, but certain people have a knack and aptitude for math, art, music, spiritual techniques, mind adventures, etc.

JL

Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:02am PT
Largo seems to have found his hero :D

Yay!

E=MC(C)

Matter is a thing. Energy is a thing. EveryTHING in the universe is a thing.

Have a nice day.

DMT

BASE104

Social climber
An Oil Field
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:04am PT
A history of science course is good for anybody in today's world.

I am a geoscientist, yet I love art. I'm flying to D.C. tomorrow to spend a week with my mother going to museums and visiting the sights. I've visited all of the modern art museums on the east coast.

I've been to the National Museum of Art before, and it doesn't hold a candle to MOMA or the Art Institute of Chicago (the best!), but I will get to see some nice paintings.

My favorite art is the abstract expressionists. The National Museum has one really nice Jackson Pollock. Lavender Mist:

Lavender Mist by Jackson Pollock
Lavender Mist by Jackson Pollock
Credit: BASE104

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 10:17am PT
E=MC(C)

Matter is a thing. Energy is a thing. EveryTHING in the universe is a thing.


Dingus, Strassler is an interesting scientist to me, not a hero. Hero's always fall.

If the above is your assertion and belief, I will have Strassler respond to it. Just making sure before asking him to clear this up for you.

JL
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:22am PT
So Largo wants to address me directly now?

Be sure to explain to your scientist, largo, the reason we are having this quibble over the nature of the universe... ie you want the door open to mysterious energies that can't be measured, by science - ever. That is the root of this discussion.

I reject that idea, utterly.

So then you try to assert that energy plays by different rules in this universe, than does matter. It does not because guess what? Matter equals energy.

So sure, drag your a scientist into this. Feel free. But do the topic honesty by describing your wooful energies to the good scientist, too, ok?

DMT
WBraun

climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:27am PT
The Mayavadi philosophy is "veiled Buddhism."

In other words, the voidist philosophy of Buddha is more or less repeated in the Mayavadi philosophy of impersonalism,
although the Mayavadi philosophy claims to be directed by the Vedic conclusions. Lord Siva, however,
admits that this philosophy is manufactured by him [in his incarnation as Sankaracarya in the age of Kali in order to mislead the atheists.

Sankaracarya rejected Buddha's philosophy, which gives no information concerning the spirit soul.

Buddha's philosophy deals only with the material elements and the dissolution of matter.

Generally they compare the living entities to the bubbles of the ocean, which merge into the ocean; thus the goal of Buddhism is to merge everything into the voidness.

For impersonalists this might be the highest perfection of spiritual existence attainable without individual personality,
but for a personalist to dissolve his individuality would amount to "spiritual suicide".

Impersonalists (mayavadis), who are frustrated by the struggle of material existence,
generally try to kill their identity by merging into the existence of impersonal Brahman.
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:37am PT
DMT: Matter is a thing. Energy is a thing. EveryTHING in the universe is a thing.

Scratch any "thing," and you will find a concept. Every concept is an abstraction. You don't grok a thing; you grok its concept. There are no things, just concepts.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:42am PT
There are no things, just concepts.

Is this an example of what's assimilated at so-called "liberal arts schools" via "the humanities" when there's so little exposure to hands-on nature investigation via science? Sad.

Who's your hero, Leon Wieseltier?

You are one weird cat.

.....

He's a slippery one, dmt. You've got him on the ropes now, or just as well, he's got himself on the ropes now, don't let him escape, lol!

.....

For the record there was as much art and design appreciation and hands-on experience in my science and engineering background as anything else. That art doesn't accompany science of all types is such a canard, waste of time.

To criticize "liberal arts" schools (often for their dissing of science in numerous ways) is not in any way to attack arts or art forms.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:46am PT
Or DMT could just read Strassler's link before playing tuggy toy with a common and gross oversimplification (ex: matter = energy).

The problem is that we're well invested in what our senses tell us about reality. The quantum world doesn't jibe with that - at all. It's...weird. Just weird. And it's kind of complicated. And unfinished. And, perhaps, largely wrong. So we try to stuff it back into a framework we're used to, and one that we can easily remember.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:50am PT
Nine tens of these posts are over-simplifications. By necessity.

Over-simplifications. As have been many of yours of late.


No worries, though, as many can handle them. They recognize them for what they are. Like big steps, high steps, in climbing. One pulls through. Without too much bitching about it. After years of training, it's amazing how one can see through the mess, the messes, the briar patches, to see what's really going on.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 9, 2014 - 10:51am PT
DMT's is just plain wrong, however. He would do well to read Strassler's link, even as he rails against its messenger.

He also conflates LG's experiential postings with an actual physicist's rather lucid explanation of our current understanding of matter and energy. The 'no thing' idea and Stassler's explanation of energy have nothing to do with each other, really. Energy is, of course, measurable. It is an attribute, or state. Whether that constitutes a 'thing' in one's mind or not is, well, as you like it, really. And it's probably best to shitcan the term 'matter' entirely in any scientific discussion - given that, with its ambiguity and multiple definitions, it's really not a scientific term at all.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:00am PT
Insofar as that's true, what about LG's role in all the miscommunication and tone and flippancy on this thread. As far as I'm concerned he's earned all the criticism and even misunderstanding (when it results) to come his way. And more.

But his How to Rock Climb was great. So too was his anchors book. (Btw, in part, this is because he deferred to the science and science-based engineering that characterizes our beloved sport, and backs it up and enhances it.)

So there it is. ;)
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:07am PT
I didn't conflate anyTHING. I'm not the one banking on mysterious undetectable energies.

DMT
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:07am PT
Scratch any "thing," and you will find a concept. Every concept is an abstraction. You don't grok a thing; you grok its concept. There are no things, just concepts.

So?

DMT
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 9, 2014 - 11:12am PT
Irrelevant to his Strassler post. Are you here to 'meet out justice', or discuss What is Mind?

I've ribbed Largo as much as anyone, and he's returned fire, as you do, but, in the end, I take sound information where I find it, regardless of the source. LG comes off as pompous, I come off as smarmy, HFCS hates to be disagreed with, Mike L's parents appear not to have come from Earth, and Werner is, well, Werner - yeah, we know, already. I've kinda run out of material there, frankly - a certain familiarity creeps in, despite our proclivities.

I don't see anyone else here 'in the other camp', or incapable of tossing out an interesting or compelling idea. It's a pot luck - everyone here has offered up at least one platter of crunchy egg rolls. In the end, I'm here to extend my fantastically limited understanding of things (and have a little fun along the way).

So far, so good, really. There's chaff here, sure, but enough wheat to make toast.
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