What is "Mind?"

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Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 10, 2014 - 08:47am PT
They will spend billions on research, expensive machines and tax the average poor citizen of their hard earned meager incomes to try and understand dark matter.

Cool! That's a good thing. Perhaps we could cut billions from killing kids and old people on the other side of the globe, to offset this research.

I mean, we could take ONE DAY OFF from the war machine and pay for all astronomical study worldwide for 10 years or maybe 20.

Now wouldn't that be something, spending money on knowledge instead of death?

DMT
WBraun

climber
Sep 10, 2014 - 08:52am PT
spending money on knowledge instead of death?

Get rid of all those criminals running Washington DC you might have chance ....
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 10, 2014 - 08:55am PT
You could start that trend towards knowledge by reading a bit of Strassler, Dingus. Free of charge.

Just sayin...

We COULD get rid of 'those criminals' in Washington, but first...

1) 'We'd' have to decide who 'we' are. You and your pals? Me and mine? I think that's what elections are for.
2) 'We'd' have to decide who, exactly, 'those criminals' are. I think that's what courts are for.
3) then 'we'd' have to decide how to 'get rid' of them without destroying democracy. I think that's what constitutions are for.

cuz if you're talkin' about destruction, doncha know that you can count me out.

Democracy is hard. I heart our democracy though, even if it needs body work and a tune up. At least we ain't killin' each other...any more. They system can work to produce long lasting, positive change, but you gotta commit long term to make that happen rather than carping from the sidelines and wishing everybody would 'just wake up.' People are awake - we just don't agree on some things. Never did. Never will.

Critics? You can't swing a dead Ralph Nader pamphlet without hitting one.



Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Sep 10, 2014 - 09:02am PT
Don't you know it's gonna be alright?

(the other JL)
WBraun

climber
Sep 10, 2014 - 09:16am PT
Don't you know it's gonna be alright?

Says the sheep in the field behind the slaughter house happily eating grass .....
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 10, 2014 - 09:21am PT
Go nutz, Werner. A Better Future America awaits your action. Make it happen, buddy.
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Sep 10, 2014 - 09:22am PT
Werner,
That's all you can expect from this weekend warrior who's been out to pasture for years anyway...
munch munch
WBraun

climber
Sep 10, 2014 - 09:26am PT
Do not comment on my posts Tvash.

They are not for you.

They are not cogent and above or below your pay scale which ever way your duality mind steers you at any time.

Stick to the science as you know it.

Always remain safe in your knowledge .....
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Sep 10, 2014 - 09:29am PT
Also, as we all know the man who wrote those words about revolution and counting him out and it's going to be alright was gunned down on the streets of New York back in 1980.
Ironic and tragic ending for one who espoused peace in all his writings, activism, and music. John Lennon's legacy will be true to stand the test of time.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 10, 2014 - 09:31am PT
E=MC(C)

Matter is a thing. Energy is a thing. EveryTHING in the universe is a thing.

Dingus, Strassler is an interesting scientist to me, not a hero. Hero's always fall.

If the above is your assertion and belief, I will have Strassler respond to it. Just making sure before asking him to clear this up for you.

JL


But I'm still waiting for the follow-through on this one.


Please, have Strassler respond.
In whatever manner he chooses. Thanks.


http://profmattstrassler.com/about/about-me/
WBraun

climber
Sep 10, 2014 - 09:34am PT
So was Gandhi.

He preached ahimsa (nonviolence) and was killed by violence.

My teacher warned him he was only preaching one side.

Himsa (violence) is required to make complete whole.

The doctor creates violence against the body to heal it ......
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 10, 2014 - 09:51am PT
Not that anybody asked... but I would've suggested "dark fudge gravity" and "dark fudge pull" (in lieu of "dark matter" and "dark energy") - as placeholders - and even "dark fudge interface" (inspired by "dark fudge gravity") as placeholder for that mysterious unknown boundary condition or mechanism between brain and consciousness.

Will consciousness and/or the dark fudge interface forever remain "conceptually" irreducible? I don't know.

But the mental life (the subjective mind) sure seems to run, to operate, even to act up (when it does) as if it IS the straight-up (I won't say "simple") processing of a complex organic electronic machine charged by evolution by natural selection with the control of a body whose "purpose" (EdH, lol!) is survival and reproduction in a particular niche in a complex dynamic environment.

And the more one understands systems, computers, biology, info science, electronic circuitry, etc etc etc ... not to mention the (apish) humanities and the (apish) human factor in the mix... the more this seems true.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 10, 2014 - 10:02am PT
E=MC(C)

Matter is a thing. Energy is a thing. EveryTHING in the universe is a thing.

Dingus, Strassler is an interesting scientist to me, not a hero. Hero's always fall.

If the above is your assertion and belief, I will have Strassler respond to it. Just making sure before asking him to clear this up for you.

JL


But I'm still waiting for the follow-through on this one.


Please, have Strassler respond.
In whatever manner he chooses. Thanks.


I'm just bombed with work right now but I'll try and find time to talk to Strassler soon as I get back from Boulder tomorrow for the Sender Films/Valley Uprising release.

The point of all of this is that from the perspective of our discursive minds, all the stuff "out there" is a thing, and the same goes for any and all aspects of people, places, things and phenomenon. When we use our minds in a way where the discursive leaves off, then we see that this is not so, that perspective plays a determining factor. This is what Strassler was driving at when saying that terms like "matter" and energy and stuff need to a context to even be understood, hat there is no agreed upon definition to what matter even is.

Many people are made more secure by the idea that reality is a fixed "thing" full of things just as black and white as Dingus insists that they are. The Harvard physiscist has another take on this. And so do many others who have made a study of mind adventures that are not based on imagining "things."

JL
Dingus Milktoast

Gym climber
Maestro, Ecosystem Ministry, Fatcrackistan
Sep 10, 2014 - 10:04am PT
Thank you for addressing me, Largo. No need to have that Strassler discussion, you and I both know what the other is saying.

Cheers and good travels
DMT
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Sep 10, 2014 - 10:07am PT
your hyper-fascination
of your subject
clearly screams
your surrender
to it's antonym.
Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 10, 2014 - 10:50am PT
"Do not comment on my posts Tvash."

Is this a quid pro quo offer? Cuz you've been my most ardent ankle biter to date, trumped only by another poster who is, sadly, no longer with us after issuing a choking threat.

I only comment on your neural stochastics when a larger point is to be made. Step away...it's not really about you.
MikeL

Social climber
Seattle, WA
Sep 10, 2014 - 11:07am PT
HFCS: there's so little exposure to hands-on nature investigation via science? Sad.

You may know content in science, my friend, granted, but I suspect you're not so much up on the method or the philosophical issues involved. The method is hardly ironclad or sure. Don't' you think that every method or approach has its problems--whether it's in rock climbing, child-raising, or geology? To read what you write, one might think that the scientific method has no issues whatsoever. Wake-up.


DMT: Can't be discussed? [Undetectable energy]


Well, not in any meaningful way. I think this has been your point now and then about "woo," hasn't it?


Werner: Himsa (violence) is required to make complete whole.

This seems right. It's how the universe appears to operate--through seeming polarities and conflict. Every drama has conflict, opposing forces, and characters who come out in the end different than when they went in. Main characters in stories transcend themselves through trials.

Doesn't everything?

As concepts go, transcendence is a pretty darned interesting idea. Somehow, whatever a "thing" is, becomes something else. An acorn becomes an oak tree. A soft summer day becomes a violent dark storm. Land masses arise, and they crumble. Rocks, molecules, energy, . . . no"thing" seems to be permanent.

Where or what is the "thing" that we are so sure of its independent, unchanging, existence?

We "know things" with such surety, . . . in the midst of never-ending change that occurs everywhere we look.

What could that apparent contradiction portend about ourselves or our universe? As Tvash says, (i) reality must be a pretty weird place. Or (ii) we are pretty weird "things" ourselves. Or (iii) our perceptions are way, way off. Or (iv) . . . .

Transcendence itself is a pretty weird phenomenon. Call it evolution, growth, change, ambiguity, uncertainty, . . . or just the lila. It's fantastic; it's interesting; it's paradoxical; you can't put your finger on it.
Bushman

Social climber
Elk Grove, CA
Sep 10, 2014 - 11:17am PT
Werner,
You are probably right in that peace and violence are both necessary in the universe, which is a terrible irony in that in human terms, violence is oft times misdirected. Would that only the correct physician guide the hand of justice.

HFCS,
Sadly, I've been informed that dark fudge interface often leads to dark fudge compaction, often precluded by a wormhole and concluding in a megablaster.
Oh the humanity!
Norwegian

Trad climber
dancin on the tip of god's middle finger
Sep 10, 2014 - 11:22am PT
f*#k werner he presents like he is stable
but really he enjoys oblivion.

Tvash

climber
Seattle
Sep 10, 2014 - 01:01pm PT
My understanding of a more updated view of the universe:

UNIVERSE: The universe is comprised of fields (gravitational, Higgs, Electromagnetic, Weak, Strong...) and particles. A particle requires a field. A field needn't have any particles, however.

ENERGY: Both particles and fields can have energy and momentum. Particles can have mass energy, motion energy, and momentum. A particle with mass at rest has only a mass energy = M c*c. Conversely, a massless particle (ex: photon per current theory) can have only motion energy, but it can also have momentum.

PARTICLES: Known particles include mass particles (electrons, quarks, etc) and force-mediator particles (photons, gluons, etc). Mass particles do not interact directly, but only through force-mediator particles within a given field - photons for the Electromagnetic, gluons for the Strong, etc)

All TBD, of course.




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