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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Western dichotomies!
How about the universe is both a material thing and an abstraction not either/ or?
Why can't we have a universe full of things while realizing that all we will ever know of them are just our abstractions? Until of course we bump our head on one. And then immediately begin to figure out (abstract) why. Our fault, its fault, their fault etc.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Why can't we have a universe full of things while realizing that all we will ever know of them are just our abstractions?
So why are we arguing? This comes straight from science. Information science, psychology, science of the mental life, evolutionary theory, etc. all point to (a) an objective real world out there (that's intelligible and learnable); and (b) a mental life evolved as learning machine and or prediction machine (that maps the world using abstraction, concepts, perceptions; utilizing attention, focus, memory, intention, strategy, etc) for getting on with it (primarily through survival and reproduction).
Nature investigation via science. Basic principles.
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Next time a loose piece of trundled choss cracks me in the shin, I'll have to remember to tell myself it's just a concept.
All that blood, just a concept.
My desire to choke the crap out of the idiot who kicked it loose.
Well yeah, that would be just a concept.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Cuz you can't detect it. You can substitute any word you like for 'energy'.
Get it?
Please say yes. Restore my faith in humanity.
I just dodged a high speed concept by 3 feet this Sunday. It made one helluva a conceptual buzz as it flew past.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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So is the soul or spirit a thing?
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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I recall reading years ago that a body supposedly weighed just a few ounces less immediately after death than before and this was attributed to the departure of the soul which if true, would definitely be measurable material. Anybody ever read a followup to that?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan for some reason when I been on carry outs (carrying human bodies) in litters the dead ones always feel heavier.
I attribute this due to the soul leaving the body.
A dead body is no longer animated anymore.
Dead bodies always felt like lead bricks to me.
We had one man once die on us while trying revive him with cpr.
Suddenly a Buddhist monk appeared on the trail.
The ranger in charge made everyone clear the scene and was trying to get the monk to leave
as the monk was sitting peacefully on a rock next to the man who had just died or was leaving his body.
I told the ranger in charge to leave the monk where he is because it is known as being auspicious when
a monk like this appears at the time death especially in this kind of situation.
The ranger most likely thought I was full of sh!t but respected the idea and let him stay.
The monk remained in his meditation state until we body bagged the man and proceeded to carry him down the trail.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Dead bodies feel heavier because of rigor mortis, which, as the name implies, makes them more rigid.
If you pick up the torso of a prone live person - you're picking up half their weight (the torso) - the body is supple. In addition, if the person is conscious, they can help you move them.
If you pick up a prone dead body by the torso, the more rigor mortis has set in, the stiffer the body becomes, and the more of the entire weight of the body you've got to pick up all at once. In addition to that, supple objects 'feel' lighter because they their weight is spread over a larger area. A stiff object will feel heavier for the opposite reason. If you were to pick up a cannon ball and spherical bag of shot of equal weight and diameter, the bag of shot would feel slightly lighter. It's more supple weight would be distributed over a larger area - and thus exert lower pressure.
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WBraun
climber
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dead bodies feel heavier because of rigor mortise
Tvash how many dead bodies have you actually picked up that were alive and the person died 1/2 hour later.
There was no rigor mortise on the one I described in the previous post.
Tell me again how many dead bodies you've picked up over the years?
I've picked many many bodies in various states of time after death so I know what rigor mortise is when it manifests.
Are you sure you know what your saying now????
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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What to make of all this? MacDougall's results were flawed because the methodology used to harvest them was suspect, the sample size far too small, and the ability to measure changes in weight imprecise. For this reason, credence should not be given to the idea his experiments proved something, let alone that they measured the weight of the soul as 21 grams. His postulations on this topic are a curiosity, but nothing more.
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp#eZ36P1HiCoZmbeq7.99
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Blood also pools in the main torso of a dead body, making that torso heavier (and the limbs correspondingly lighter). That effect begins immediately after the heart stops. That could have been what you experienced - or perhaps you changed the way you attempted to move the body before/after death. Without measurement - it's all conjecture.
Rigor mortis becomes pronounced within 2 hours.
Hey, this is just what happens to a body after it dies. There's no mystery here.
The idea that a dead body 'gets heavier (or lighter, for that matter)' (it doesn't-yet another wive's tale) because it's soul leaves it? Not quite as much evidence for that, I'm afraid, no matter how many corpses one has moved.
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WBraun
climber
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They measured the weight of the soul as 21 grams
Bullsh!t
You believe everything you read.
The soul is not material and no material instrument can measure the soul.
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WBraun
climber
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The idea that a dead body 'gets heavier
I never made any such statement.
I said it feels heavier
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Well, they can feel heavier for the aforementioned reasons. Leverage is another big factor. You can drape a supple body over you or near you, moving it's center of gravity closer to yours. Not so if it's stiffer.
And I'll admit that I seldom read your posts, Werner, and even then, not very carefully. They're...not all that cogent.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 02:38pm PT
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Interesting Cintune. Thanks for the reference, I always wondered about that. There were problems with his human methodology for sure, but when I heard he probably poisoned 15 dogs just to experiment on them and found they had no souls, then I knew for sure I didn't trust him or his results.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 9, 2014 - 05:18pm PT
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Dingus said:
Be sure to explain to your scientist, largo, the reason we are having this quibble over the nature of the universe... ie you want the door open to mysterious energies that can't be measured, by science - ever. That is the root of this discussion.
Who ever said such a thing. All Mike and I have ever said is that you cannot know all the quandrants of mind by way of measuring, or by the imaginary practice of excluding the observer from your observations. Measuring is about discrete parts. WHat you are proposing is that "reality" is one "thing" that looks a certain way, a belief plainly stated by your words insisting that "energy IS mater." The Harvard professor begs to differ with you.
Where is this discussion are there "mysterious energies?" Who put forth such a claim? What IS "mysterious?" Or better yet, what is the limit of measuring?
JL
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