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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 27, 2014 - 09:10am PT
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Tvash: Aug 26, 2014 - 09:58am PT
. . . as you say it. So it is. But, was that all it was . . . as you've described it . . . "traveling in unfamiliar wilderness for extended periods of time?" Or was there more? Have you said all that there was about it? Is that your final answer? Is there a final answer? (No?)
Jan: . . . it takes both meditative wisdom and compassion to become enlightened.
A nitpick: Absolute boddhichitta only seems to come when wisdom (emptiness) is realized. Then compassion is seen and understood. In the meantime, compassion looks to me most of the time as maudlin mawkishness. It serves no one but the believer as a proof of their own self-goodness. Both are signs of delusion. (Neither self nor goodness can be found.)
Jgill:
My comments were not about routes. I was speaking a bit more (non) metaphysically. I was using climbing as a route to higher ground.
The love of exploration seems to go to something very deep and intrinsic to our nature. We wont to explore because we want to find ourselves, and we do so by throwing ourselves out into the world in innumerable ways. But if that is all that it takes to explore who and what we are, we'd have found satisfaction and ourselves by now after so many lives and years.
Solving our riddle of what and who we are solves us, at which point we should finally be able to rest.
Pragmatically (and personally), when would that be, John? It seems to me that to finally rest, we'd have to give-up on finding answers to an unending list of questions. What would it take to completely let go of those? (You don't really want to jump off THAT cliff, do you? I mean, . . . then what?)
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 27, 2014 - 10:52am PT
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I don't explore because I want to 'find myself'. I know where I am. I explore because I want to lose myself in the world.
Seekers. Curiosity, addiction, dissatisfaction, narcissism, or just another form of being stuck?
Speaking of 'self', not too many seekers in service work, I've noticed.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2014 - 11:46am PT
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MH2 said: In this attentive, borderless awareness exercise, we all begin by trying to somehow still “look” at ourselves from the open focus perspective. (JL)
This is not what happens for me. I may be able to see my nose and feel the chair I sit in but my 'self' as such has nothing to do, nothing to say, and is present only as part of whatever is around it.
In fact once you get jiggy with open focus work, your nose and your sensations are all like your self - simply elements of ALL that surrounds you, inside and out.
Imagine that you didn't have a localized perspective, but were totally present and sentient. What might that experience be like for you?
And Tvash, any viable path these days has a service component, usually a big one, having NOTHIGN to do with recruiting neophytes. This is an outgrowth of the recovery moment, where service is the cornerstone to augment narcissism - our tendency to be "bound by self." And "self" here means being entirely addicted to self-serving behaviors, not to the agency of being, which most traditions hold as divine, however you might understand that word.
JL
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 27, 2014 - 11:59am PT
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Service as an outgrowth of the recovery movement?
None of the service folks I'm thinking of - and that's a pretty large crowd at this point, have ever experienced an addictive day in their lives, you self-absorbed moron. They're just good, selfless people who believe in making the world a better place and who don't have time in their schedules for your brand of narcissistic bullsh#t.
One just won a landmark case involving a flagrant violation of the Voter's Rights Act in our state. You know, real sh#t that actually matters.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Aug 27, 2014 - 12:36pm PT
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The love of exploration seems to go to something very deep and intrinsic to our nature. We wont to explore because we want to find ourselves (MikeL)
I explore out of curiosity, Mike. In math I play with simple concepts and try to create a tiny bit of new knowledge of no real significance. I'm just interested in seeing where a path will take me. I'd be doing the same among the rocks if I still climbed. If "finding myself" means generating that tiny thrill of discovery, then I plead guilty . . . but that's not it. I'm not introspective. To explore my psyche would be a droll slog.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 27, 2014 - 12:54pm PT
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Plus, it's handy to know a few places where you can hide a body should the need arise.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2014 - 01:14pm PT
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None of the service folks I'm thinking of - and that's a pretty large crowd at this point, have ever experienced an addictive day in their lives, you self-absorbed moron. They're just good, selfless people who believe in making the world a better place and who don't have time in their schedules for your brand of narcissistic bullsh#t.
In the "work," what just jumped up in our boy Tvash is known as "The Beast." Behind this is a self-ritiousness (his friends are above all addictive behaviors, and are the more better, more altruistic, purer article) that feels itself offended - the very core of the ego-bound "I." We all have it, but rarely is it seen so transparently as in Tvash's last rant.
You might want to review what ppssppss was saying earlier, cowboy - or keep eating that broken glass and stinking up the joint, believing yourself a white rose.
JL
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Aug 27, 2014 - 01:44pm PT
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Next page.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Aug 27, 2014 - 01:45pm PT
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I see this as an emotional rant whereby the discursive is feeling done out of knowledge that is rightfully held as its own, usurped of its hegemony by some high-blown woo.
You are referring to something I wrote under the influence of about as much emotion as required to peel an orange. Hardly a "rant".
As far as the deranged notion that the "discursive" is feeling "done out of knowledge that is rightly held as its own" is a silliness begging to be summarily disabused. That which you refer to as "discursive" is nothing less than what I have called "default modes of consciousness". And as such is about as native to the human experience as our putting man on the moon ,unravelling the structure of DNA, and the capacity to do mathematics and write symphonies. I don't think such "knowledge" actually runs much risk of being "done out" by a few dudes doing precious little more than electively sitting around in lotus positions over the recent course of the last few thousand years.
Through this discursive process we can work up our fantastic measurements and physical breakdowns of discrete physical phenomenon. Obviously we can never achieve this if our awareness was toggled wide open and we never focused on a given pine cone or quark or honey beaver.
What is being suggested here is that one form of awareness is "toggled" wide open and the other is narrowly focused--- a false dichotomy which ,on the face of it , cannot be logically sustained.
It has not been established that the human brain is in any way capable of being aware of everything at any prescribed moment. Therefore any and all forms of of awareness are inherently exclusive and narrowly focused.
No matter what the labored disciplined employed to break this limitation, it is of no avail--- the brain is doomed to this inherent narrowness . Bummer,uh? This is the evolutionarily-driven default consciousness.
Rule of thumb: if you are alive then your awareness is narrow-focused. If you are aware of absolutely nothing then you are dead. Moreover, if you are alive you cannot be aware of everything.
Therefore if you are alive and aware --- then your brain occupies a narrow band of activity otherwise known as life. Your awareness is not open-ended. All awareness is narrow and finite. That's what awareness does. There is no "open focus" override switch ---only relative forms of narrowness. Life in general proceeds by chopping the world into manageable segments and fragments to be consumed . The brain, following the dictates of biologic survival , figuratively and literally does the same thing.
No pursuit , discipline , or ideology is so lofty that it can validate any outlandish claim to vault the mind into full awareness of everything. This is not possible. To suggest or claim that such an unbounded awareness is attainable by any means--- is a high pretension which should be reported forthwith to the Better Business Bureau.
Mentally speaking, whatever is viewed can never include the viewer .
I'll deal with this one when I have more time.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 27, 2014 - 01:55pm PT
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Nup. This beast's comments are not self-referential. I know - impossible to imagine, right?
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 27, 2014 - 05:41pm PT
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Tvash: I want to lose myself in the world.
And you don't think that's finding yourself? (Hmmmm, take the blue pill.)
. . . have ever experienced an addictive day in their lives, . . .
You are hilarious.
Jgill: . . . that tiny thrill of discovery, then I plead guilty . . . .
John. Why would you need to? What don't I understand? If there is ANY challenge worth undertaking (and there aren't, not really), then what could be better than finding out about yourself? For me (and maybe you want to sing along here with me), the most rewarding experiences showed up when I stretched, was deeply challenged, when I changed in my core, when I saw the emptiness to a choice of action or decision that I invested heavily in. Then I learned more about myself; and when I did, then I learned so much more about the world I found myself in.
This makes me introspective? Let's see, what's the opposite? Would the opposite be oriented to "things?" To achievement? To everything that is external to you, yourself? To anything that lies outside of you?
I suppose that is the dividing line between us. You think all those things "out there" exist as you see them. I don't; I think they are all made-up into the forms that we converse. It's not the "them" that matter; it's the forms that we make-up.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 27, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
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What you are seeing here from Ward and Tvash is what psychologists call disowning - whereby a person identifies with a set of primary selves (ritious, serving, gracious, correct, etc) and disowns the opposites and projects them "out there." It is an entirely unconscious process that the subject not only holds near and dear, but will also heap virtue on top of it, and if truly delusional, will claim it is the dirctt province of truth or God. What you won't see in this clusterf#$k is eithr consciousness or change.
The most delusion aspect of Tvash's angle is that NONE of his friends in their hallowed service are subject to ANY addictions, a Homeric whopper that Mike corrrectly pointed out is "hilarious." As though Tvash his own self is not obsessed with being "right," a "top dog," addicted to ritiousness and judging, etc.
Then we have these fantastic sweeping statements by Ward, delivered with the full furnace blast (aka hot air) of his faux academic rambling:
Says our boy Ward: "What is being suggested here is that one form of awareness is "toggled" wide open and the other is narrowly focused--- a false dichotomy which ,on the face of it , cannot be logically sustained (apparently because Ward himself says so.)
It has not been established that the human brain is in any way capable of being aware of everything at any prescribed moment. Therefore any and all forms of of awareness are inherently exclusive and narrowly focused.
No matter what the labored disciplined employed to break this limitation, it is of no avail--- the brain is doomed to this inherent narrowness . Bummer,uh? This is the evolutionarily-driven default consciousness.
Rule of thumb: if you are alive then your awareness is narrow-focused. If you are aware of absolutely nothing then you are dead. Moreover, if you are alive you cannot be aware of everything."
As usual, Ward has tied his mind into a knot of his own making. Awareness is not narrow and finite, Ward, the relativfe breadth of your awareness is a function of your focus. Yes, the brain DOES narrow focus by default, but this by no means ALL it can do.
From what data and empirical evidence have you draw your conclusions? Nothing at all but his own silly speculations. "Vauliting the mind into full awareness of everything" is the point in which Ward betrays not carefully reading what I said, ie, that an open focus does NOT give one a grasp of the sum of all "things" in reality, because it is not focused on things, which is what the disursive process does, and which Ward rants so ritiously about as being the "only" way the mind works.
This is a primitive denial device we see in most any subject in which a person does not grasp the basics but insists to God and country that he does. Simply jump up and down and swear that (fill in the blank) does not, in fact, exist. But when pushed for the data from which these fantastic claims are made, we find once more that Ward, God bless him, is simply guessing, and fobbing that off as a wonky kind of universal truth.
But again the most fantastic of all the claims so far concerns Tvash's fellowship of friends who suffer from "no addictions whatsoever."
"Hilarios" indeed.
If you want to get jiggy with a rudimentary level glance at the way attention and focus can work, including the modes which Ward insist do not exist, spend a few minutes on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJrpf5OM8cI
JL
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 27, 2014 - 06:49pm PT
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^^^i like this!
This is why i read all ur posts. Your pointing at others' opinions(or reasonings) which is opening my eyes to different perspectives i didn't realize were out there. Thanks
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Aug 28, 2014 - 03:28pm PT
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Order yours today...
http://www.amazon.com/Waking-Up-Spirituality-Without-Religion/dp/1451636016/ref=zg_bs_12807_1
Waking Up, by Sam Harris
“A seeker’s memoir, a scientific and philosophical exploration of the self, and a how-to guide for transcendence, Waking Up explores the nature of consciousness, explains how to meditate, tells you the best drugs to take, and warns you about lecherous gurus. It will shake up your most fundamental beliefs about everyday experience, and it just might change your life.”
Paul Bloom, Professor of Psychology and Cognitive Science, Yale University and author of "Just Babies: The Origins of Good and Evil"
“Waking Up is a rigorous, kind, clear, and witty book that will point you toward the selflessness that is our original nature.”
Stephen Mitchell
“Sam Harris points out the rational methodology for exploring the nature of consciousness and for experiencing a transformative understanding of possibilities. Waking Up really does help us wake up.”
Joseph Goldstein, author of "Mindfulness: A Practical Guide to Awakening" and "One Dharma"
“As a neuroscientist, Sam Harris shows how our egos are illusions, diffuse products of brain activity, and as a long-term practitioner of meditation, he shows how abandoning this illusion can wake us up to a richer life, more connected to everything around us.”
Jerry Coyne, Professor of Biology at the University of Chicago and author of "Why Evolution is True"
"Sam Harris ranks as my favorite skeptic, bar none. In Waking Up he gives us a clear-headed, no-holds-barred look at the spiritual supermarket, calling out what amounts to junk food and showing us where real nutrition can be found. Anyone who realizes the value of a spiritual life will find much to savor here – and those who see no value in it will find much to reflect on."
Daniel Goleman, author Emotional Intelligence and Focus
"Sam Harris has written a beautifully rational book about spiritually, consciousness and transcendence. He is the high priest of spirituality without religion. I recommend this book regardless of your belief system. As befits a book called Waking Up, it’s an eye opener."
A.J. Jacobs, bestselling author of The Year of Living Biblically
Then we can all discuss - on this very thread!!
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 28, 2014 - 03:39pm PT
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HFCS you have become an airchair buddhist ! As I predicted some would when they adopted Sam Harris.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 28, 2014 - 04:00pm PT
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It seems that Largo and MikeL are losing it here in the face of a some boring ole, latte sucking Washingtonians, former midwesterners, and immigrants who are making civil rights history entirely sans woo and post addiction amends.
Kinda weird, but thas coo. Nobody really cares. Bigger lutefisk to fry n all.
I will admit to poking at the big egos just to watch em swell up. My bad there.
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WBraun
climber
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Aug 28, 2014 - 04:50pm PT
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he gives us a clear-headed, no-holds-barred look at the spiritual supermarket
LOL ... airchair buddhist & spiritual supermarket.
Those are funny terms ....
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Aug 28, 2014 - 05:03pm PT
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For me (and maybe you want to sing along here with me), the most rewarding experiences showed up when I stretched, was deeply challenged, when I changed in my core, when I saw the emptiness to a choice of action or decision that I invested heavily in (MikeL)
Sorry, Mike, can't sing along with you here. It's the "seeing the emptiness" business and the "changing in my core" that's sticky. You make a choice, invest heavily, it doesn't work out: then OK, I made a bad choice, let's suck it up and try something else. Crying over spilt milk, etc.
It's probably because I'm naïve and insensitive to my core. I have way too much confidence in my "I" (which is probably not my core, right?) . . . a serious flaw, perhaps.
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Psilocyborg
climber
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Aug 28, 2014 - 05:29pm PT
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the real key to this, as I have said, is a parametric sound synthesis program that activates medical parts of the body through frequency in one layer through say the liver or adrenal frequency, is linked to bio to midi in its linear time sequencer, as that is all the program does, generates midi control data, and and the rest of the synthesizer would have to incorporate chemical geometry hardcore, there are frequencies associated with the elements too, and not only that, the time spiral of the sequencer would have to incorporate the audio element to the time sequencer. I don't know what frequencies they used in the music on that site, because you could use that program to trigger a whole orchestra of bass drums and sliced up vocal samples for all I...
I confess I need to read crystal's post in a nonskimmed entirety, and indeed as all music affects chakras and the human energy system, as sound is the element of aether and throat chakra, with the other types of energy above the four elements, and isomeric grounding mechanism of the legs, third eye pituitary is light and crown pineal electricity. soul energy is even higher and breaks up into octaves, like a mages ascension, and the arms are a volume depth thing and the fingers the 10 decently audible octaves, with the thumb stuck in the bass and the high freqs floating off your pinkies through the volume filter and straight to the brain. maybe dogs exist on a higher mental plane on earth, noses all drawn down, and act like beacons of nature, since they can hear higher frequencies, and birds just the same but more intense, less laid back. I have made music with the orbit and spin freqs of all the planets and do astrological intro songs in my dj sets for the planetary conjunctions of the day, for the special shows. I made these all quantum by combining the orbit and spin freqs of each planet, pure sines, with the orbit or spin freqs slowed down to 1/3 or 2/3 quantum electron charge spin ratios, thus creating four quantum faces for each planet corresponding to the fall exaltation, detriment, and ruler of each planet. Just like in classical astrology. ethics must come with things of this nature, and if I sped these up to 133.333- or 166.666666666- it would be less like a meditation album than aliens shooting you with guns to colonize
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