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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 25, 2014 - 10:32am PT
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Chalk one up for the existence of ghosts?
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Aug 25, 2014 - 10:39am PT
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worse than that, you think that the skill of doing arithmetic operations has some relevance to today's job market. Critical thinking is probably a better skill to develop, and you can do that puzzling out the answers to mathematical questions, by doing mathematics.
whether or not you become a mathematician...
do you believe that she should just learn the alphabet, and some rules of grammar? and only the simplest means of communicating with language, oral and written?
and whose to say she couldn't make a living as a mathematician? or even solve one of those long standing mathematical questions?
but to say that she shouldn't have to worry if something difficult confronts her because it is irrelevant to "real life" seems a bit defeatist and maybe not the best life lesson to teach.
+1
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 25, 2014 - 11:23am PT
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A gold Spanish doubloon to any man who can explain scale symmetry in clearer terms than that article, although I fear that article was as good as it gets for us dummies.
I did learn that the Planck mass is about a 1/10th of a poppy seed. Combine 2 Planck masses to bake a black hole.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 25, 2014 - 01:10pm PT
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Ed you said
but to say that she shouldn't have to worry if something difficult confronts her because it is irrelevant to "real life" seems a bit defeatist and maybe not the best life lesson to teach.
How did you get that out of this:
i was just telling my daughter today that math is the easiest class she'll ever take, because all the answers are known. All that she has to do is to understand and agree with them. Am i wrong?
i've definitely been promoting math to her!!!
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Aug 25, 2014 - 01:31pm PT
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That scale symmetry article posted by cintune is a head-scratcher for sure. Here is a simple mathematical oddity in which lengths are not what they appear to be: Diagonal Paradox.
Is this a kind of mathematical scale symmetry, where the distinction between "short" and "long" is blurred? Perhaps, but a great distance from the sophisticated material in that link.
BB asked about the satisfaction of the "journey." I would speculate that many traditional climbers are at heart explorers. There's a real satisfaction in going into territory unexplored by other climbers and finding new climbs, even if they turn out to be not as challenging as one might have desired. The exploration itself provides gratification. The same is true of math.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 25, 2014 - 02:59pm PT
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WT said”IMO it's about high time to bring the "meditative arts " into proper appositional perspective, like fiddling, as a healthy corollary to daily living ---and thereby hopefully rid it of any awkwardly high pretensions of a profoundly existential nature.”
That is funny!
I used to practice Zen in such a manor, as just another activity like fiddling,golf or climbing etc. treating it like one of many separate things that “I” did ….” As a corollary to daily living”.
But as I practiced more and did more retreats my perspective switched to notice when attachment to “I” would appear in it’s various forms of fear, envy , anger,craving etc. during all the activities and to ask where does that come from? what it it really?
So rather than Zen being just another self improvement or recreational activity such as yoga has become(to many); all activities become zen.
And as a famous zen story illustrates;when a zen master is asked what is zen (he was cleaning an out house with a stick at the time) he said “a sh#t stick” as he held it up. The activity of the moment.
So you are correct it is important to expose that it is not highly pretentious or existential in nature; but if it is viewed as something that “I” am doing to make “I” more healthy then that is not zen . that is a self improvement program; zen asks what is this self ?
Trungkpa wrote a very good book about this called spiritual materialism
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Aug 25, 2014 - 06:35pm PT
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So you are correct it is important to expose that it is not highly pretentious or existential in nature; but if it is viewed as something that “I” am doing to make “I” more healthy then that is not zen . that is a self improvement program; zen asks what is this self ?
I was referring generally to meditation in my historic comment you cited. I know little about Zen ,but now I know it is not to be mistaken or exclusively confused with the lowly ego-grasping domain of mere self- improvement .
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Aug 25, 2014 - 06:54pm PT
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My narrowedly mind must have been focused on the here and now in todays job market. And not that of a Mathematician.
what should I conclude from your statement? obviously, you don't think that understanding mathematics is a skill that can be relevant to "todays job market."
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Aug 25, 2014 - 07:03pm PT
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. . . attachment to “I” would appear in it’s various forms of fear, envy , anger, craving etc (PSP)
Once again "I" (or attachment to "I") is described as a demonic possession. What of confidence, graciousness, joy, and fulfillment: the blessings of "I" ?
I see in these Zen expressions the underpinnings of bushido and loyalty unto death of the samurai. It's so easy to die for one's lord if "I" consciousness is absent.
So sad . . .
;>(
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cintune
climber
The Utility Muffin Research Kitchen
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Aug 25, 2014 - 07:43pm PT
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Buddhist Extremist Cell Vows To Unleash Tranquility On West
“In the name of the Great Teacher, we will stop at nothing to unleash a firestorm of empathy, compassion, and true selflessness upon the West,” said Rinpoche, adding that all enemies of a freely flowing, unfettered state of mind will be “besieged with pure, everlasting happiness.” “No city will be spared from spiritual harmony. We will bring about the end to all Western pain and anxiety, to all destructive cravings, to all greed, delusion, and misplaced desire. Indeed, we will bring the entire United States to its knees in deep meditation.”
“Wisdom and virtue to America!” continued Rinpoche. “Wisdom and virtue to all living things on earth!”
http://www.theonion.com/articles/buddhist-extremist-cell-vows-to-unleash-tranquilit,34623/
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Mar'
Trad climber
Fanta Se
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Aug 25, 2014 - 08:23pm PT
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It's a good thing! haha!!
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Aug 26, 2014 - 08:13am PT
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you don't think that understanding mathematics is a skill that can be relevant to "todays job market."
i can't think of a job that it's not relevant.
Actually if my daughter Olive became a Mathematician, it would be my dream come true!
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 26, 2014 - 08:21am PT
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Any job you can think of will no longer exist when she's an adult, so it doesn't really matter.
Healthy habits, social intelligence, and critical/analytical thinking are about as specific as you can get with regards helping the next gen along on the 'ladder of success'.
You don't live in their world. You never will.
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MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
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Aug 26, 2014 - 09:49am PT
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Jgill: There's a real satisfaction in going into territory unexplored by other climbers and finding new climbs, even if they turn out to be not as challenging as one might have desired. The exploration itself provides gratification. The same is true of math.
I have my doubts.
People don't like endless ambiguity or uncertainty (absolute groundlessness). Everyone wants final answers, definitions, concreteness, clarity, things that really exist, and accomplishments. Yet these are the very things gives rise to suffering. People require the comfort / safety of knowing what's what, predictability, closure, permanent / independent / separate existence, and meaning.
None of that, IMO, is real; or at least none of it can be finally found. All are concepts, a result of vivid imaginations.
Reality is neither concrete nor attained through technique or method. Words simply point to doors into reality. As they say, "it's all good," but the fascination in any structure is a deviation, as no doctrine ultimately ends up being true or correct.
There is no progress. No personal growth is possible. No maturity. No evolution. No meditation. No discipline. Nothing to do. No place to go. No discrimination. No prejudice or bias. No one and no thing to change. No controller. No control. There is simply no need. Everything is upfront and in our faces.
One cannot truly stand aside and admire mind. Pure mind (the dharmakaya) is like space. It is a unified matrix of openness, spontaneity, and absence (empty). The here and now is a freeform display. One can only jump into it.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Aug 26, 2014 - 09:58am PT
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"Everyone wants final answers, definitions, concreteness, clarity, things that really exist, and accomplishments. Yet these are the very things gives rise to suffering. People require the comfort / safety of knowing what's what, predictability, closure, permanent / independent / separate existence, and meaning."
Have you traveled solo in unfamiliar wilderness for extended periods of time? I have, and I don't recognize any of this. I don't presume to speak for even one other person, never mind 'everyone', either.
Seems like a whole lot of attachment to an unfounded opinion to me. Hardly Beginner's Mind stuff, here.
What I have experienced on extended solo back country journeys and ocean voyages is an absorption of self into the environment. Not a disappearance, mind you - the animals certainly know I'm there - but I become just another creature rather than a disturbance.
This absorption was particularly pronounced on long open ocean crossings in my sailing kayak. Absorption opens one up to realize and blend into the rythms of a wholly dynamic environment - wind, waves, currents, clouds, stars, creatures. It keeps one's sense of beauty and wonder alive in the face of overwhelming, raw power. Otherwise the fear of such an undertaking can be crippling, particularly when conditions become rough. It conserves one's energy for longer voyages and emergencies such as a mechanical failure, an approaching supertanker, navigating at night through coral reef in a squall, sailing over a submerged volcano, or passage in and out of the surf line. In an emergency, it can provide a platform for the level of total focus one needs to survive.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Aug 26, 2014 - 10:42am PT
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. attachment to “I” would appear in it’s various forms of fear, envy , anger, craving etc (PSP)
JGill said” Once again "I" (or attachment to "I") is described as a demonic possession. What of confidence, graciousness, joy, and fulfillment: the blessings of "I" ?
I see in these Zen expressions the underpinnings of bushido and loyalty unto death of the samurai. It's so easy to die for one's lord if "I" consciousness is absent.
So sad . . .
No demons are necessary.
If you watch your internal dialog you get to see that whenever you move into a fearful or envious (and yes) confident states of mind they are almost always accompanied by “I” as in I am angry or I am confident etc. The stronger you believe it is yours and that you are correct the more attached you are and the less ability you have to step back from it and look at it from another point of view.
I think the misunderstanding is zen and other (Buddhist teachings ie theravadan ) does not prescribe to removing fear envy joy graciousness etc etc but just to observe and experience them as they are and to recognize their relationship to “I”.
Sitting meditation is an excellent venue for being able to do this when you sit down for 20 minutes all that stuff comes up sooner or later and it is an opportunity to observe it for what it is . The way prescribed for observing it is to not push it away and don’t crave it (just observe).
The challenge is we are very conditioned to push stuff away that makes us uncomfortable and to crave (grab)things that make us happy. That is why it takes a lot of practice.
The direction for all of this is to perceive your true nature and help all beings. My take on that is if your perceive your true self (mind unattached from “I”) then by natural process you help all beings because you stop being self oriented.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado, Nepal & Okinawa
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Aug 26, 2014 - 11:21am PT
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First of all, I would hardly claim that this group or climbers in general represent the average person that MikeL was probably speaking of. I do believe climbers are one of the last evolutionary bastions of those who like to find new routes and blank spaces on the map. Most of the human race was bought out/transformed by agriculture into something else. Climbers are more akin in spirit to the hunter gatherers or nomadic pastoralists of the past.
Healthy habits, social intelligence, and critical/analytical thinking are about as specific as you can get with regards helping the next gen along on the 'ladder of success'.
This is of course why most school districts are still serving junk food in the cafeteria and judging students and teachers by standardized tests?
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