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WBraun
climber
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May 16, 2019 - 05:56pm PT
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There isn't an answer to that question, yet,
Why you gross materialists always make absolutes, all while hypocritically denying absolutes in your so-called narrow-minded modern science.
The answers are always there.
This why you gross materialists are lazy hypocrites and just plain brainwashed fools .....
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 16, 2019 - 06:39pm PT
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The answers are always there.
What can you tell me?
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WBraun
climber
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May 16, 2019 - 07:02pm PT
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No one can tell you anything as you don't want answers,
Otherwise, you really would seek them instead of saying st00pid sh!t like there are no answers yet and No one knows etc. .....
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 16, 2019 - 07:26pm PT
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you really would seek them
Ah, yes, the answers.
Have you ever been under general anesthesia, Werner?
Or been knocked on the head hard enough to pass out?
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L
climber
Just livin' the dream
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May 16, 2019 - 07:39pm PT
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If consciousness (as we "know it") were still present during general anesthesia, then we would remember, have knowledge of, and feelings about what had happened while we were anesthetized. We don't.
Well, with all due respect, that's not precisely true.
There are many verified cases of people hearing their surgeons talking about golf games, business deals, fat patients, etc...while under anesthesia.
Google "Anita Moorjani". Her story might change your mind.
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WBraun
climber
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May 16, 2019 - 08:03pm PT
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There are many verified cases of people hearing their surgeons talking about golf games, business deals, fat patients, etc...while under anesthesia.
Yes ...
And ...
MH2 ... no wonder Largo gave up talking to you ....
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zBrown
Ice climber
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May 16, 2019 - 08:07pm PT
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I fell out of a tree and was knocked out as a youngster
Don't remember much now
Didn't then either
I woke up during my general anaesthesia for eye surgery
Saw the scalpel scraping my retina
Only remember the part after where I woke up, not before
Surgeon told me when I asked about it
"Most people do not get to see that"
Never felt any pain during the entire procedure
How can we be conscious, but not conscious of what is painful?
Eh?
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WBraun
climber
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May 16, 2019 - 08:16pm PT
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Saw the scalpel scraping my retina
WOW !!!!
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 16, 2019 - 08:20pm PT
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I know why I have cancer!
Anita Moorjani.
A person with answers. Her story doesn't ring true for me, even though I think she is being honest.
I have been told a better story by the person who lived through it, of being without vital signs on arrival at the ER and then being revived, by the big metal plates and electric shock through the chest, and coming to know that THERE IS A GOD. He told me that it was not a Christian God or a Muslim God, but God nonetheless.
These things do happen, and given the millions of surgical operations performed each year on the planet there are cases where people do remain conscious. Those are rare exceptions and they are more likely due to inadequate sedation, faulty equipment, or exceptional physiology of the patient. They are interesting but not conclusive evidence of anything in particular.
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 16, 2019 - 08:21pm PT
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How can we be conscious, but not conscious of what is painful?
One answer is ketamine.
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zBrown
Ice climber
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May 16, 2019 - 08:22pm PT
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^The old epiretinal membrane removal procedure. Can happen to the best of us. :)
I'd show ya but I have no non-copyrighted images.
I did not ask what drugs I was given. I will next time I see Dr. S, who is an excelllent surgeon.
Well I guess we can still link to YouTube
I had the vitrectomy and and peel
Did not pick the soundtrack
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=C32p42MBRkw
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 16, 2019 - 08:24pm PT
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no wonder Largo gave up talking to you ....
He seems to dislike trying to answer questions, too.
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WBraun
climber
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May 16, 2019 - 08:24pm PT
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They are interesting but not conclusive evidence of anything in particular.
Says the wannabee god .....
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MH2
Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
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May 17, 2019 - 07:08am PT
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My wife is a medical geneticist. She has seen great advances in our ability to look for genetic causes of health problems.
I once worked at University of Washington in Seattle and my boss and I had a couple meetings with Bertil Hille, who studied the voltage-gated sodium channel in nerve cell membranes. His work laid the basis for an understanding of how local anesthetics block transmission in nerves.
My wife sends samples from patients to be tested for genetic abnormalities. Quite a few problems result from small changes in the structure of the channels that allow for ion flow through cell membranes.
My wife recently reminded me how intricate are the molecules we are made of and how complex are their interactions. Each one of us and each living thing has extraordinarily beautiful and multifaceted activity going on at the molecular level.
Then my wife pointed out how we often use this fantastic stuff we are made of to pick up a stick and hit someone on the head. Or some such crude purpose.
What a piece of work is man, How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, In form and moving how express and admirable, In action how like an Angel, In apprehension how like a god,
from Hamlet
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MikeL
Social climber
Southern Arizona
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May 17, 2019 - 07:14am PT
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eeyonkee: Assumed concepts are what keep aircraft in the air.
You may not really mean what you've written. I wouldn't say that "concepts" keep aircraft in the air. It might be more related to things like wings, airflow, and such. (But even those are concepts.)
Your writing is, I'd say, somewhat representative of how enamored we are with science and conceptualizations. Once we have latched onto a concept that appeals to the images we hold in our minds and hearts, then they seem to become more real than what or how reality presents itself to us. Beliefs--expressed objectively as concepts--commandeer our perceptions, so that we see what we believe.
I'm using tools every day. There are other times when I'm more attracted to or involved in expressions rather than representations (tools).
At night I sit in a chair at dusk watching the colors shift and change in southern Arizona while night approaches. No concepts and no beliefs are required. You, on the other hand, might think about how the colors appear and how they change. I could also wonder at the palette of God, but that would also employ some beliefs.
Er, as to consciousness while being under anesthesia, I've been told that by a couple of doctors that the drugs that are being used do not make one unconscious as much as they make one forget the experience. (It's another narrative / conceptualization.)
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WBraun
climber
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May 17, 2019 - 07:45am PT
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"concepts" keep aircraft in the air
LOL
You can say concepts do everything then.
Word jugglery ..... it's what gross materialists do when they are ultimately clueless ......
MH2 ... there is a distinction between the person itself and their material body.
You always completely miss that.
Because your whole science and medicine are stuck in the brainwashed material only rut .....
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okay, whatever
climber
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May 17, 2019 - 07:56am PT
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Hmmm. I've only had one experience with serious surgery, and hence anesthesia, but I am QUITE sure I was NOT awake during the operation, and then just "forgot" what happened. Once they wheeled me into the operating room, they injected a spinal block in my lower spine, which caused me to lose all feeling below the waist, after it took effect. Then, via the IV, they gave me some sort of light sedative so that I went to sleep, in effect. I had a MRSA infection in my right thigh, which could have caused a lot of trouble if it had gotten into my abdomen, obviously... that was why they were concerned, and wanted to open my leg up and clean it out thoroughly. Of the operation itself, and until I woke up in a hospital bed, I had and have NO memory whatsoever. I was unconscious, for all intents and purposes.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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May 17, 2019 - 07:57am PT
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Er, as to consciousness while being under anesthesia, I've been told that by a couple of doctors that the drugs that are being used do not make one unconscious as much as they make one forget the experience.
there we have it, the experts have spoken! no need to explore further...
surprising that MikeL would write this, unless he's interested in avoiding the obvious problem that chemical "alteration" of the brain seems to have such an affect on consciousness. Not to mention the side step away from the issue that science can be used to build aircraft (and other technologies) rather more successfully than other "narrative descriptions of reality." It would seem that science has demonstrated its effectiveness.
WBraun also punted on his explanation, the drugs caused the "consciousness" to decouple from (?) the body. How does that work?
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Trump
climber
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May 17, 2019 - 07:58am PT
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I do so enjoy the word jugglery of “word jugglery” and “gross materialists” and “ultimately clueless.” Ultimately we ultimately clueless word jugglers believe we have a clue, and conclude that hitting someone else with a stick is a crude purpose for which to use our self-diagnosed sublime abilities.
Or something. We definitely conclude that we have a clue about something, whether it’s that we have a clue about what gross materialists do, or a clue about something else. Believing we have a clue about something is how we work. All of us.
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WBraun
climber
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May 17, 2019 - 08:09am PT
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Disconnect the battery from your vehicle when the mechanic works on it.
You stay in the vehicle and wait till he's done and reconnects or you CAN even leave for a while, while the mechanic takes care of the vehicle for you.
You will not have any control over the vehicle while disconnected.
In the case of one's body under anesthesia, one will regain consciousness of that body when the drug wears off.
These are really very crude examples and it's much more than that.
Modern materialistic mindset can't grasp this stuff due to heavy material brainwashing ......
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