What is "Mind?"

Search
Go

Discussion Topic

Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
Messages 22121 - 22140 of total 22790 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
jogill

climber
Colorado
Sep 14, 2018 - 08:18pm PT
"Sometimes I think that I am the only one on this thread truly trying to solve the answer to the question posed by the OP."


And for that you deserve an award! Here is your Medal of Merit. Wear it proudly:






(Produced by one of those mysterious algorithms to which you refer. Beyond human design. Sorry it has a somewhat biological demeaner, but that's evolution for you!)
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 14, 2018 - 08:23pm PT
http://news.berkeley.edu/2018/09/12/gut-bacterias-shocking-secret-they-produce-electricity/

Gut bacteria produce electricity.

This fully explains the room-clearing methane emissions of certain people I once knew.

No wonder that our mitochondria are thought to be bacteria before our cells ( eukaryotes) thoughtlessly enslaved them.

MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Sep 14, 2018 - 08:28pm PT
I have my eye on the prize. It is clearly a model that includes science and algorithm


Is making tea (or coffee) an algorithm or a ritual? What's the difference?

The biological trouble with an algorithm is that it might make your behavior predictable and then you become breakfast, ritual or not, for a predator.
Jan

Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
Sep 14, 2018 - 10:11pm PT
jgill, does your most recent algorithm have a name?

I can't help but be reminded of the goddess Artemus or Diana of Ephesus.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_of_Artemis

Again, I ponder the relationship between the archetypes of the human unconscious and the mathematical nature of the universe. I assume the mathematical archetypes came first and then humans evolved to see them, imitate them, dream them? Microcosmic vs macrocosmic once again.
WBraun

climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 07:54am PT
Studies of people on the verge of death who, while supposedly unconscious, accurately report events relating to their physical body from a perspective outside it.
Heart attack patients, accident victims, and soldiers wounded in battle have all reported such experiences.

Dr. Michael Sabom, a cardiologist at the Emory University Medical School, undertook a scientific study of such reports.

He interviewed thirty-two cardiac-arrest patients who reported out-of-body experiences.

During a cardiac arrest the heart stops pumping blood to the brain, and so a patient should be totally unconscious.

Yet twenty-six of the thirty-two patients reporting out-of-body experiences during cardiac arrest were able to give fairly accurate visual accounts of their resuscitation.

And the remaining six gave extremely accurate accounts of the specific resuscitation techniques, matching confidential hospital records of their operations.

The results of Sabom’s study, detailed in his book Recollections of Death: A Medical Investigation (1982), convinced him of the reality of out-of-body experiences.

He concluded that the mind was an entity distinct from the brain and that the near-death crisis caused the mind and brain to split apart for a brief time.

Sabom wrote, “Could the mind which splits apart from the physical brain be, in essence, the soul, which continues to exist after the final bodily death, according to some religious doctrines?

As I see it, this is the ultimate question that has been raised by reports of the NDE [near-death experience].”
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2018 - 08:05am PT
However, John, your reply seems to lack evidence of "great progress" by any interpretation (other, perhaps, than accepting as real the wily coyote's romp down the path of Zen). If philosophy has produced such results please spell them out briefly without simply referring to one or another philosopher. That might set in place a productive path of investigation
-

Fair enough. But that's not something that I can dash off as I usually do here. Gimme a minute.
MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Sep 15, 2018 - 08:32am PT
Ward,

I over-wrote, and too quickly. My apologies and regrets. I took-off on a topic that I find here on the thread a bit regularly: “What’s not rational, instrumental (where, ’it works!’ is the proof of a theory’), or scientifically definable . . . is poppycock.” I admit that is not what you were saying (but I thought you were leaning in that direction).

The academic survey (book) on ritual I finished reading and annotating impressed me. Indeed, as suggested, the most fertile places to look for ritual is in religious contexts, but ritual and ritual-like practices are remarkably ubiquitous in modern life. Societies and communities seem to require rituals, although academically it’s unclear exactly why (which is to say there are many theories). For example, one can note Don Paul’s comment about how he does not hold doors open for some people (a silly ritual?), but I’d say he likely lives in a legal world that is full of ritualistic practices that if suspended would cause considerable consternation, maybe even shock, among jurists.

There is so much to everyday, moment-to-moment “reality” that is socially and seemingly arbitrarily constructed, which we do not question. That’s all I’m trying to note.

As for generalizations appearing foolish, and weak, and employed . . . my assertion in these conversations is that we cannot help ourselves. We are socially, educationally, ideologically, psychologically, and even scientifically compelled to use generalizations. We could be aware of those compulsions and hold them lightly.

A iconoclastic sociologist by the name of Erving Goffman studied what’s been referred to as micro sociology. After studying typical social scripts people used to interact with others in mundane situations, he would send his graduate students out to break convention in those situations and recorded how others reacted. Not only did those other people not know how to respond (they often froze), but Goffman’s research indicated they would became outraged and at times would respond aggressively to his students’ behaviors. I often find similar response when I challenge the almost pervasive belief that science surely knows what it’s talking about.

We are not nearly as rational, logical, scientific, and reasonable as we would like to think we are. If a person were interested in such questions, he or she could observe it by looking at their own minds.

Cheers, and be well.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2018 - 09:03am PT
After studying typical social scripts people used to interact with others in mundane situations, he would send his graduate students out to break convention in those situations and recorded how others reacted. Not only did those other people not know how to respond (they often froze), but Goffman’s research indicated they would became outraged and at times would respond aggressively to his students’ behaviors.
--


I'd love to hear some examples of people behaviorally breaking from the script, and how others responded. That's interesting stuff because it breaks us out of machine mode. I've seen this in climbing many time, when the topo is wrong and how some people fly into a rage when facing new situations not accurately detailed by the physical data in the guide.

New experiences. The unknown. Off the beaten track and all that. Not for everyone.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 09:47am PT
New experiences. The unknown. Off the beaten track and all that. Not for everyone.

Yes.

Apply to (1) mind-brain science (What is Mind?), (2) life management systems (e.g., religions).

Voila.


Largo says, NOT FOR EVERYONE.
He's got THAT right.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 09:52am PT
Repost from other thread... Since it seems relevant this page...

re: Failure to develop a replacement

Peterson: "Let's go back to one of the core problems we've been trying to address which is... the apparent failure, perhaps, of the rationalist-atheist types to develop an active ethos that has sufficient beauty and motivational power to serve as a credible replacement for the religious rituals. There must be a reason why that failure has occurred. Right? So do you have any sense of what the reason might be?"

Harris: "I can give you a short list of reasons: One is that traditionally the impulse to do that in a religious context has been fatal. To declare your apostasy has been almost as a reliable way of committing suicide as jumping off a building in most cultures and most societies for the longest time and still is in many places as you know in the Muslim world. There's been a barrier to entry to thinking creatively about alternatives to religion."

NOT FOR EVERYONE.
SOME PEOPLE FLY INTO A RAGE.

COURAGE REQUIRED.

This, how ironic. (Flipping the script.)

IT BREAKS US OUT OF MACHINE MODE.
High Fructose Corn Spirit

Gym climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:02am PT
re: To shrink back from the crux
re: To shrink back from the off-beaten path, the "new situation"
re: To shrink back from "the Big Moment"

Douglas Murray: "What are we doing here?" To be the first people in history to have absolutely no explanation for what we're doing, at all, is a Big Moment."

Sam Harris: "That sharpens up my concern perfectly because to shrink back from that Moment and resort to one of the pseudo-stories of the past - I consider to be a failure of nerve both intellectually and morally."

It's a Big Moment. :)


NOT FOR EVERYONE.

COURAGE REQUIRED.



...

Speaking of "adventurous intellect"...
Free Solo's Director Doesn't Give a F**k About Climbing

https://www.outsideonline.com/2342126/Elizabeth-Chai-Vasarhelyi-free-solo-movie
jogill

climber
Colorado
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:47am PT
"jgill, does your most recent algorithm have a name? "


No it doesn't, Jan. Mike told me to avoid labeling my mysterious creations and allow others to interpret them as they like. This image, and others similar to it, appear when I iterate sequences of linear fractional transformation forms (Yanqui will know what these are, I suspect). It's not surprising that the fleshy curves and structures appear since LFTs in their basic definition convert circles into other circles, including Circles of Apollonius.


I do hope eeyonkee is pleased with his award.
Ward Trotter

Trad climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 10:58am PT
After studying typical social scripts people used to interact with others in mundane situations, he would send his graduate students out to break convention in those situations and recorded how others reacted. Not only did those other people not know how to respond (they often froze), but Goffman’s research indicated they would became outraged and at times would respond aggressively to his students’ behaviors.

Interactions between individuals in "mundane situations" who do not know one another can only proceed if both parties show a minimum of ground rule mutual respect and deference towards one another. If one of the parties chooses not too -- diverging from convention-- then it becomes clear to all that an outside agenda is at work in which adult communication is short-circuited and the self-interest of the agenda-driven party becomes paramount.( the graduate students breaking convention)

What is the outcome? The offended party "...often froze " or "responded aggressively."

No big surprise there. I hope not too much taxpayers dough was wasted here.

Not long ago a very smelly individual approached me asking for spare change. As I fished around in my pockets ( yes sometimes I am an "enabler") I thought I heard the tinkling of a nearby sprinkler head. Looking down I spotted urine exiting our smelly Guy's pant cuffs.
He was clearly departing from convention. My response was to not skip a beat, give him his dollar, wish him a good day, and go on my way.

Pity taught me in that moment that there was no outside agenda except that of a hopelessly broken man--and so I was able to go with it.

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 15, 2018 - 03:12pm PT
No big surprise there. I hope not too much taxpayers dough was wasted here.


Only wasted if the experiment played out according to your first assumptions. The curious mind would want to know about the experiments themselves, and would defer evaluation till the story was told in all of its telling details.

First assumptions are the devil of mind studies. Along with conflation, they are possibly what curtails meaningful investigation more than any other two impulses.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Sep 15, 2018 - 05:21pm PT
"First assumptions are the devil of mind studies."



Like there will never be a conscious machine?
WBraun

climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 05:32pm PT
There are millions of conscious machines in service daily.

Just get into your car and start driving and immediately it is a conscious machine since a sentient conscious being is in control of the machine.

Without a sentient conscious living entity at the controls of the machine and is not a conscious machine but only a st00pid robot ......
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 05:41pm PT
Most people don't "fly into a rage" when the topo is wrong, Largo. The success of humans is predicated on an ability to adapt, quickly.

You display a willing disservice to the innate abilities of any common person.

WBraun

climber
Sep 15, 2018 - 05:47pm PT
The success of humans is predicated on an ability to adapt, quickly.

When you read this thread you can see they don't adapt quickly at all.

They adapt a glacial speed measured in thousands of years slow or not at all and devolve down into animal consciousness ....
Dingus Milktoast

Trad climber
Minister of Moderation, Fatcrackistan
Sep 15, 2018 - 06:01pm PT
I took a ride in the mind of spider today. It was a trip, maaaaaan!

Arachniview
Arachniview
Credit: Dingus Milktoast

DMT
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Sep 15, 2018 - 06:11pm PT
Poor spider. No suitable prey in sight.


But enough spiders will make it through.


Messages 22121 - 22140 of total 22790 in this topic << First  |  < Previous  |  Show All  |  Next >  |  Last >>
Return to Forum List
Post a Reply
 
Our Guidebooks
Check 'em out!
SuperTopo Guidebooks


Try a free sample topo!

 
SuperTopo on the Web

Recent Route Beta