What is "Mind?"

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MikeL

Social climber
Southern Arizona
Sep 12, 2018 - 02:46pm PT
Duck: The gross materialists are a rudderless boat drifting in the sea dreaming they are on course ........

. . . and yet there’s really nothing to be done about it. One might refer to a theory of evolution: things are exactly right where they could *only be* given beings’ state of awareness. We can lament the situations we think we see around us, but that’s wasted energies. “Rudderless dreaming” is exactly where things have to be, apparently. One does not have to complain about it; one can celebrate it just as easily. “Here we are.” Yay! At least “we are.”


Jan +1.

The finding could give evidence that expression is the most essential human urge and capability—perhaps the ultimate sign of intelligence. It would also suggest another meaning for Werner’s complaint about endless “speculation.” That expression (as “speculation”) is what shows human “being” their awareness.

Look how every animal expresses itself in its own plumage superficially—be it the colors of feathers, to the arrangement of appendages.. Plumage (and other surface embellishments) may indeed serve reproductive function, but can’t we say that their primary purpose is simply to express “I AM” of a species’ own uniqueness? We only focus on and celebrate instrumental functionality (over being) because that’s what we value in our time; that’s how we see the world. That’s our “speculation,” our expression of who and what we are.

All life forms seem intrinsically expressive, first and foremost.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2018 - 03:31pm PT
There has been great progress made in the investigation of mind (as distinguished from brain), especially in terms of what most intelligent and informed people accept as true, probable or most logically coherent.


You are hopeless (and mean-spirited with the "whole most intelligent and informed" bullshit)! You don't seem to understand what you don't know.


Strange rant. Most would consider intelligence and being informed to be our best defense against bullsh#t.

The context of what I said pertained to those who have made mind a special study, as in the professionals who have made a career of looking at the main issues at depth. While I make it a practice to read those folks, I certainly am not one of them. Not surprisingly, most have a foot in both science and philosophy/psychology.

The level and depth of scholarship among those people is fantastic. Listen to lectures by Searle or McGinn, to mention just a few, and you realize this rather quickly.

The main advantage of trying to work at that level is that, while opinions vary greatly on what it all might mean or how it might play out, there are various global concerns and questions that have largely been worked out, so you don't waste time niggling over stuff that has largely been put to rest. That's one of the drawbacks of an open forum - you waste time on things that have already been widely resolved, as many of them have.

Is there a final solution? Not even, but progress has been made, for sure.
jogill

climber
Colorado
Sep 12, 2018 - 05:18pm PT
JL: "There has been great progress made in the investigation of mind (as distinguished from brain), especially in terms of what most intelligent and informed people accept as true, probable or most logically coherent."


eeyonkee: "You are hopeless (and mean-spirited with the "whole most intelligent and informed" bullshit)! You don't seem to understand what you don't know."


Do you understand that I asked politely about your first quote, but that someone else wrote the second quote? Not me. Wake up, man.




I still await a more detailed reply to the question I asked about this "great progress" in understanding mind (and not the functioning of mind).
What you have written above sounds more like philosophical "results", which lack any real substance.
eeyonkee

Trad climber
Golden, CO
Sep 12, 2018 - 05:35pm PT
Strange rant. Most would consider intelligence and being informed to be our best defense against bullsh#t.

Good point -- wish I'd have thought of that one.

I have a pretty tight definition of intelligence based on decades of reading about it and related ideas in evolutionary biology, anthropology, zoology, and empirical philosophy (I don't much care for the other kind). Intelligence, IMO, is completely divorced from your concept of it. I believe that intelligence happens in every single organism with a nervous system. I purposely say nervous system since there is plenty evidence for apparent intelligence in organisms without brains. Intelligence, as I see it, could be measured by, what I would call, algorithm-effectiveness. Algorithm-effectiveness is essentially how good your "automatic" response (algorithm) is in the actual environment that it plays out in time. It is, logically, a different thing than how we feel about a decision including our feeling of agency for the decision. On the last two points, I go with the Gazzaniga model of the interpreter; an extra bit of meat that evolved in the human brain -- not much -- for storing after-the-fact memories of your automatic decisions. Although after-the-fact, the stored memories can and are used as inputs in future decisions. That's the crux of it. Your brain is always one step behind, but it can use the stored memories in the interpreter.
okay, whatever

climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 05:53pm PT
Well, after 20,000+ posts, and a wide variety of ideas posted... many of which are quite interesting... if we haven't collectively figured it out already, we're not likely to do so in my lifetime. Not to mention that there is not even remotely a consensus in the professional literature, some of which sometimes makes it here onto Supertopo, but not always. I personally have appreciated some of the offbeat posts with references to research, however offbeat that research might seem on the surface. John Long, who is the "father" of this attempt to figure this stuff out on this website, I do appreciate, and I also the different viewpoints that have appeared. I WOULD prefer to be an openminded individual, rather than someone who thinks that anyone who thinks differently than they do is "stoopid", or however he spells it... the standard Werner Braun dismissal of pretty much everything that doesn't come from his own mind, unless the idea comes from one of his Yosemite heroes. Move somewhere else Werner, and learn that life and the universe is not all about Yosemite in the 1970s-2018. Or not... but get off your high horse of imagining that you know everything, but no one else knows anything, about life.
WBraun

climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 06:13pm PT
Intelligence is Not in the nervous system.

Intelligence comes from the living entity itself as the soul.

We are not the material body ever.

Who cares what the coward anonymous okay, whatever fool mental speculator and fool projectionist cries about every time he posts.

Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 06:16pm PT
Werner,

When you face someone else, do you address the person or their soul ?
WBraun

climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 06:25pm PT
The person (soul) is one and the same .....
xCon

Social climber
909
Sep 12, 2018 - 06:27pm PT
then whats with the lengths they go through
hiring out to keep themselves from being there to answer your question?
okay, whatever

climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 06:33pm PT
Werner, we obviously disagree, but I am not anonymous at all. My name is Jim Souder, and I live at 2420 Arlington Blvd, Charlottesville, VA 22903. My phone is 434-806-4173. You can find me on Facebook easily. I'm 64 years old, and have lived many places, worked for many years as a geologist and then did software, including some years at the Intel Supercomputing Systems Division in Oregon, when it still existed. I've spent time in Europe, Japan, and India on software projects, over the years, as well. And Earl Wiggins, who I know you remember, was a good friend of mine and a climbing partner back in the 1970's in Colorado. I also lived in Boulder for many years, and know many, many climbers and other people there.
WBraun

climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 06:39pm PT
Thanks Jim and good for you .....
okay, whatever

climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 06:41pm PT
Best to you as well, truly, Werner! May we be at peace!
Jim Brennan

Trad climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 06:48pm PT
Are people always their soul ?

There's room for reflection and improvement in the time you're given. No one is perfect. I don't think anyone expresses their soul, every time they communicate with each other.

A lot of the time, it's none of your business.
WBraun

climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 07:06pm PT
Are people always their soul ?


Yes, I've been saying that all along.

But we are not the material body we inhabit.

It is only a vehicle we reside in according to our developed consciousness.

To be in a human body is very rare and should be taken advantage of for self realization.

If you devolve your consciousness you will be reborn in a lower material body form.

Modern science has zero clue to any of this knowledge.

There's far far more, but very difficult for the gross materialist conscious living entites to understand.
MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Sep 12, 2018 - 07:08pm PT
It was true! Even me, complete Facebook idiot that I am, was able to find Jim Souder on it. Great video of eagle and cat.


He is on the case, too. From a paper linked somehow to his page:

Conscious experience is not directly observable in an experimental context, so we cannot generate data about the relationship between physical processes and experience at will.


I say that conscious experience is directly observable whenever we observe any behavior in a conscious organism. Even if you had a fancy-shmancy gadget that read consciousness experience from the mind, would that be "directly observable" conscious experience?

Of course, there is the objection that what we observe is not the "experience itself." I remain unconvinced that even people having the experience observe the experience itself.

Maybe we just talk or look at consciousness in different ways. Consciousness is hard to "explain" since there aren't good criteria for making sure you have an explanation. Even if we build a conscious machine, we may not understand how it works.



Each of us accumulates data about the relationship between physical processes and experience whenever we are awake.


Nice reference to Mt Hunter and David Roberts.
WBraun

climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 07:10pm PT
Even if we build a conscious machine, we may not understand how it works.

You are that conscious machine itself.

Study yourself and not everything outside of yourself ........
jogill

climber
Colorado
Sep 12, 2018 - 08:17pm PT
Jim Souder, thank you for revealing who you are. Too many here hide behind their avatars. xCon, you are next. Come out of the closet.




;>)
Gnome Ofthe Diabase

climber
Out Of Bed
Sep 12, 2018 - 08:41pm PT
ah?
I'm tubby, weak & blatantly un-repentant,
but Light?
I do spread Light
is that what you are saying
yes
I am god-like in my concept that is Light
so I'll build on that
and point out that I am more & so far above the questions
that go on here, I use this thread to put the lights out,
Good day Jim Clipper, there is a name, I'm sure you'll use it



I am aware that is not every ones cup-o-
but try to listen to a bit of one or the other,
there is redemption in the act of trying to listen,
is there Consciousness?
(given, I live in the past, when y'all was Da' greatest )

The Grateful Dead Playing "The US Blues" A particularly Crisp version,
7/13/85

https://youtu.be/waOfuTDaYl8

& Lady With A Fan/Terrapin Station from 7/26/87

https://youtu.be/k77EE3a7DUg
Jim Clipper

climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 08:49pm PT
Gnome apologies! Gnome guilt! You are light!


jstan

climber
Sep 12, 2018 - 09:52pm PT
Maybe it is time to drop the avatars?
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